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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.11.18 18:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Remove proto from pubs, because it is by definition OP; because everyone hates being protostomped; and because that high-end gear belongs only in FW and PC.
The reality of players running proto (and especially, squads of proto) in pub matches is just an incredibly poor experience for both sides*.
The winning side has an utterly hollow victory (of course you won, even at great cost).
The losing side faces a blob of almost indestructible strafe-machines and are forced to decide between:
- Bring out your own expensive gear and settle in for an expensive, PC-like battle
- Stay in the same gear and take the beating
Who wants to lose around a million ISK in a pub because they just didn't want to throw in the towel again?
It would be like a multiplayer racing game where every 3rd or 4th match your team of Prius, Mini and Camry drivers went up against Team Ferrari and were expected to compete. We can all agree that would be a stupid, unbalanced and ultimately pointless event.
So why does Dust allow the exact same thing?
We talk about balance - CCP, CPM and the community pore over the numbers in minute detail, comparing like for like (i.e., basic CR vs basic AR) which is reasonable - except what about basic AR vs Kaalikiota RR? Is that balanced?
Because that is the scenario that actually happens, very often, in pubs.
Proposal
Use meta level to restrict proto suits, weapons and equipment to FW and PC, where they belong.
Is there a strong reason why this would be a bad idea?
There are countless "Protostomping is bullshit" threads on here, this seems like an reasonable solution.
*Well, with the exception of hardcore scrubs who actually enjoy winning with a grossly unfair advantage - but we should ignore those guys because they shouldn't be the customers who are primarily catered to, however vocal they may be.
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.11.18 18:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bax Zanith wrote:My signature explains public matches perfectly well. Unless your protostomping, then the only useful thing you really can do is put on a starter fit, run out in the middle of the map and wait for someone to one shot you. Then do it over and over again until the end of the "match", because unless you have a full proto suit, your worthless. Your only there to pad the KDRs of vetteren players, that's the only role you serve in this game if you don't protostomp. That's how it is, and I sadly don't ever see it changing.
Your either the cow or the butcher.
Sure, but one way for that to change would be the above proposal, do see any problems with it as a solution?
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Syeven Reed wrote:Small change. Only proto suits, not proto everything.
Not weapons?
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
loumanchew wrote:The problem is not the protosuits, it is the squads in pub matches. It should be solo queue only.
That'd be a nice addition, and hopefully we'll see that one day.
Given the current, team-oriented pub matches we have today, don't you think that removing proto so that squads can only run at best Advanced suits would be less bad than the current proto stomps we get - which everyone seems to hate?
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:There should be a system like there is in FW in EVE. Certain ships are only allowed in certain plexes. Frigates can enter any complex but battleships can only enter large complexes. If something similar could be done with gear i'd be all for it.
Well we have meta levels, surely that could be used..
Either a hard restriction, e.g. No items over meta 6 or whatever, or a sum of your fitted suit's meta level.. So you could in theory run a proto suit or weapon or piece of equipment, but just not the absolutely maxed out, full proto fit.
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Updated OP to more clearly define problem.
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.11.18 20:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Charli Chaplin jr wrote:Even ADV sqds are deadly if they know how to play.
Absolutely, even basic sqds are - and so they should be, otherwise we're saying "no one should be allowed to be skilled and/or work together".
All I'm saying is that restricting proto usage in pubs would bring the situation into a more reasonable state. It wouldn't make pub life easy, just alleviate the problem somewhat.
Good players will still be good, good squads will still be good, just without ALSO having maxed out gear on top of all that.
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 21:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
TritusX wrote:Ok, let me combine everything for you. What you guys seem to want is to nerf squads and q-sync. That is OP. Three squads of Nyain San, Fatal Absolution, and Molon Labe Q-Syncing together is a nightmare. They just use proto to show they can. The whole coordination of it allows them to stomp in anything, even militia gear.
Well yeah, that's the way the thread has gone in spite of the OP haha
So do people think that in the proto stomping equation (that is, squads and/or qsynced squads + proto gear) the proto gear has little to no impact and is not worth discussing?
Because I disagree with that.
Teams and squads win games, but full-proto gear (generally) wins individual confrontations.
I'm talking 800ehp assault with proto rifle vs 400ehp assault, basic rifle.
Maybe if solo players had better odds in individual confrontation we'd see a reduction in the impact of squads/qsyncing.
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.11.18 21:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Logic failure:
Vehicles are balanced to fight proto AV.
So proto AV cannot be deployed...
Ok enjoy the new flavor of stomp while we practice with ADV AAV.
True if all proto is banned, but I was thinking that a limitations on total meta level of your fitting would work (as this would allow some proto, just not full proto).
As for the viability of non-proto AV, ADV swarms have been recently buffed to reduce the gap between them and proto and when used in conjunction with other AV they work just fine. But yeah, you're right that it would undo that balancing effort to a degree.
But thank you for actually arguing my original point 
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.11.18 21:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kensai Dragon wrote:Meta Level Cap seems to be the most balanced idea. Squads should be encouraged. Either remove proto altogether or put a cap in place to limit the gear. Case in point - these APEX suits with basic gear are hardly qualified to be Protostompers.
Exactly. Logi could still run proto reps; Sniper still running proto rifle, etc..
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
58
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Posted - 2014.11.18 23:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kensai Dragon wrote:
Honestly, I'm not seeing why someone would be opposed to a meta level cap. If you're good, you're still good. If you're bad, you can at least have a chance. I'm not advocating an 'easy mode', or asking you to not try hard. Just looking for a progression that makes sense.
I feel like for all the disagreement in this thread - although a lot of that is more general comments about squads/qsyncing, team balancing, obligatory git guds, etc - if CCP were to actually roll out a meta level cap for pubs, the majority of players would welcome the change.
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B-F M
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
65
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Posted - 2014.11.19 17:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote:I believe the initial suggestion was a Mu cap which have a trade off on proto use instead of a complete removal of proto suits all together. Tell me if i'm wrong there. 
Close, but I was suggesting using the Meta level, not Mu.
Proposal
Display the Total Meta Level (sum total of suit, weapon, equipment meta level) in the fittings view, and introduce a Meta Level Cap in public contract battles to eliminate full-proto fittings. Proto would still be allowed, just with some trade-offs.
So each piece of gear already has a Meta level (I think 1-8), which would get added up as you make your fitting.
Example:
Item (Meta)
PRO commando (7)
PRO armor plates (4)
PRO armor plates (4)
STD nanite injector (1)
PRO combat rifle (8)
PRO swarms (8)
PRO damage mod (4)
PRO damage mod (4)
TOTAL (40)
Now, say pub matches have a Total Meta Level restriction of like 25 or 30 for example.. the player would need to replace some of that PRO with MLT/STD/ADV.
I proposed this as an alternative to simply banning any fitting with any proto on it because individual weapons, modules or equipment aren't a problem, and as Breakin Stuff pointed out, would actually break things like AV vs Vehicle balancing.
Using a Total Meta Level restriction would still allow players to run, say, an ADV logi with a PRO rep tool; ADV commando w/ PRO swarms etc.
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