DUST Search - Feelings on the new and improved RR?

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Unfortunately high damage weapons will always perform better in CQC because of better application of damage and stopping power.

Anything you do to make them worse in close to force them to perform at range will also gimp them at range.

High alpha should be CQC with high rate of fire being longer range. High RoF low kick weapons with decently tight dispersion can become suppression as well as killing tools.

Its one of the reasons I think HMGs should be pulled from CQC. The things we have done to make it work in CQC alternately make it overperform or neuter it with zero middle ground.

Rattati has come the closest to proving me wrong but that balance is on a razor's edge and any changes to some random thing can throw it out of whack again.

But if the AR/ARR perform better at the outer edges of their performance envelope and the RR and BAR work better in closer natively why are we forcing them opposite of that?

Lore in New Eden is great. It's focused on ships. You can't balance an infantryman like a ship. It does not work.

"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro"

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Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:37:00 - [1] - Quote People complained about the hipfire kick so the charge time was doubled Feedback? B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
xavier zor G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 220	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:43:00 - [2] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: People complained about the hipfire kick so the charge time was doubled Feedback? so the hipfire is gone, but it takes twice as long to charge? Highest plasma cannon kill: 132 metres
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 382	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:47:00 - [3] - Quote To be honest i mostly run an Assault CR on a minmatar assault, when i'm...uh...assaulting I do use the RR when i need some range. It seems okay to me but that comes with two caveats 1) I don't use hipfire very often, i almoast always aim down sights 2) I use it for long range engagements when i need more punch Specialists will know much better than I. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

ChribbaX Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions 1340	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:48:00 - [4] - Quote The kick is gone? My RR goes all over the place after a few rounds... DUSTSearch DUSTBoard DUST Server Status

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:48:00 - [5] - Quote xavier zor wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: People complained about the hipfire kick so the charge time was doubled Feedback? so the hipfire is gone, but it takes twice as long to charge? yes. thoughts? B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 231	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:48:00 - [6] - Quote I'm okay with the kick, but that charge time...No, I'm not okay with it... Also I can still use my Kaal. RR to kill in CQC easily, but it's harder to use in longer ranges... *For The State!*
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:49:00 - [7] - Quote ChribbaX wrote: The kick is gone? My RR goes all over the place after a few rounds... Not gone entirely...just 'toned down' B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:51:00 - [8] - Quote sir RAVEN WING wrote: I'm okay with the kick, but that charge time...No, I'm not okay with it... Also I can still use my Kaal. RR to kill in CQC easily, but it's harder to use in longer ranges... Wooooooow. That's interesting feedback you got there. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1605	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:52:00 - [9] - Quote xavier zor wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: People complained about the hipfire kick so the charge time was doubled Feedback? so the hipfire is gone, but it takes twice as long to charge? Not gone, still quite bad in comparison to every other gun. ARR kick feels nasty for the 'close quarter' variant when compared to weapons like the acr, cr, scr and ar which functionally don't kick. Would like to see cal assault get a 5% kick reduction to rail weapons per level, gives the cal an actually distinct racial weapon bonus and should bring things into line. Honestly wish that HMG's had a .6sec spoolup to balance their 700dps cqc bullet hose. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
xavier zor G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 221	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:54:00 - [10] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: xavier zor wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: People complained about the hipfire kick so the charge time was doubled Feedback? so the hipfire is gone, but it takes twice as long to charge? yes. thoughts? It is a worse solution I always switch to my SMG in close quarters when using the rail rifle, but when i see somebody and they see me within a decent range (outside SMG range) he gets 6 extra bullets (around 200hp) off me before i can shoot him? When i stop to recover, i pop my head around the crate to see him, he gets another 200hp off me before i start doing damage... Highest plasma cannon kill: 132 metres

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:54:00 - [11] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: xavier zor wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: People complained about the hipfire kick so the charge time was doubled Feedback? so the hipfire is gone, but it takes twice as long to charge? Not gone, still quite bad in comparison to every other gun. ARR kick still feels nasty. Would like to see cal assault get a 5% kick reduction to rail weapons per level, gives the cal an actually distinct racial weapon bonus and should bring things into line. Honestly wish that HMG's had a .6sec spoolup to balance their 700dps cqc bullet hose. Woooooooooow...this is also VERY interesting. THANK YOU! B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 07:55:00 - [12] - Quote xavier zor wrote: It is a worse solution I always switch to my SMG in close quarters when using the rail rifle, but when i see somebody and they see me within a decent range (outside SMG range) he gets 6 extra bullets (around 200hp) off me before i can shoot him? When i stop to recover, i pop my head around the crate to see him, he gets another 200hp off me before i start doing damage... I hate to say this again but...Woooooooww!!! Now let me ask a follow up...why not just precharge at those long ranges the same way it feels intuitive to do so for cqc? B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1605	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:00:00 - [13] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Woooooooooow...this is also VERY interesting. THANK YOU! Made a small edit to original message. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4987	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:01:00 - [14] - Quote Recoil helps in CQ Zatara. I keep saying it and people keep blowing me off. Recoil walks your shots from crotch to eyeball. It's not a disadvantage in CQC. You want less recoil for range weapons an dispersion to balance CQC. Recoil and high damage help in close. Dispersion and rate of fire help at range. We keep trying to shoehorn the damn guns opposite of this simple fact. WHY? HIGH DAMAGE HIGH RANGE SLOW FIRE IS A SHIP/VEHICLE DOCTRINE. It falls apart with infantry. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 284	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:01:00 - [15] - Quote Using the RR from the hip is like grabbing a donkey by its legs and then setting its tail on fire. I love it The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:01:00 - [16] - Quote I don't use RRs myself -- but as someone who gets killed by RR I will say this: In CQC situations if we both see eachother at the same time I definitely get an alpha damage advantage. I have killed RR users before they even fired a shot before. That being said -- if I miss the first few bullets and the RR user starts shooting about the same time I start hitting -- I die slightly more often than I kill due to the dispersion and DPS catching me when I strafe or dodge. Take that for what you will.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:04:00 - [17] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Woooooooooow...this is also VERY interesting. THANK YOU! Made a small edit to original message. I'm glad you did. The ARR as a cqc weapon kicks a lot harder hipfire wise than the other variants intended for cqc use, I concur. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:05:00 - [18] - Quote Hansei Kaizen wrote: Using the RR from the hip is like grabbing a donkey by its legs and then setting its tail on fire. I love it Interesting...well the change actually reduced the hipfire kick...are you saying you would have preferred that to the doubling of the charge time? B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:08:00 - [19] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Recoil helps in CQ Zatara. I keep saying it and people keep blowing me off. Recoil walks your shots from crotch to eyeball. It's not a disadvantage in CQC. You want less recoil for range weapons an dispersion to balance CQC. Recoil and high damage help in close. Dispersion and rate of fire help at range. We keep trying to shoehorn the damn guns opposite of this simple fact. WHY? HIGH DAMAGE HIGH RANGE SLOW FIRE IS A SHIP/VEHICLE DOCTRINE. It falls apart with infantry. SO with your principles in mind how does the new changes stack up with where you see it being? Just about the same? If not are you suggesting that it should hipfire like a mule? B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4988	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:14:00 - [20] - Quote Im saying revert the changes. Swap the ranges on the RR and ARR. Swap the ranges on the breach AR and the AR. PROBLEM FIXED. Breach weapons are ideal CQC profile and the assault rifles advantages only really BEGIN to show up right at it's 40m optimal. It gets progressively crappier the closer you get to your target. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4500	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:19:00 - [21] - Quote Anyone else got feedback?! :D B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 841	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:33:00 - [22] - Quote Problem: Long range weapon doing too well at cqc? CCP's solution: Make it worse at long range. With my serious face on: Can't comment on the RR kick at cqc, as I noticed no difference, but I never really used it in cqc, and I don't use the ARR anyway. But. Longer spool up time hurts long range combat more than anything else. And regardless of anything else, the RR is supposed to be the best rifle at range. Take that as you will. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4988	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:45:00 - [23] - Quote Unfortunately high damage weapons will always perform better in CQC because of better application of damage and stopping power. Anything you do to make them worse in close to force them to perform at range will also gimp them at range. High alpha should be CQC with high rate of fire being longer range. High RoF low kick weapons with decently tight dispersion can become suppression as well as killing tools. Its one of the reasons I think HMGs should be pulled from CQC. The things we have done to make it work in CQC alternately make it overperform or neuter it with zero middle ground. Rattati has come the closest to proving me wrong but that balance is on a razor's edge and any changes to some random thing can throw it out of whack again. But if the AR/ARR perform better at the outer edges of their performance envelope and the RR and BAR work better in closer natively why are we forcing them opposite of that? Lore in New Eden is great. It's focused on ships. You can't balance an infantryman like a ship. It does not work. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 275	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:55:00 - [24] - Quote The change offers the distinct disadvantage the weapon needed the mechanics of the weapon now feel proper the damage may need altered still (nerf), but I really can not tell until I am proto. This is a lil off topic, but many have said they don't like the reload buff as far as I am concerned it is pretty fitting. I mean there is nothing worse than facing someone closing in with a empty clip or course I am using the bolt p so I cant pop over and spray and prey. The Impossible Dream and Wizard Talk
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 266	Posted - 2014.11.14 08:57:00 - [25] - Quote The charge is too long IMO, 0.45s would havd been much better. You must precharge all the time if you want to reach a target at long range cause if you dont, he'll have the time to hide way before you start shooting. I felt the hipfire kick still big which isn't a problem to me as it's not a CQC weapon. Didn't try the ARR yet. Take out all forms of scans and you'll see how great Dust can be. Scrubs will cry, good players will love it.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2451	Posted - 2014.11.14 09:15:00 - [26] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Unfortunately high damage weapons will always perform better in CQC because of better application of damage and stopping power. Anything you do to make them worse in close to force them to perform at range will also gimp them at range. High alpha should be CQC with high rate of fire being longer range. High RoF low kick weapons with decently tight dispersion can become suppression as well as killing tools. Its one of the reasons I think HMGs should be pulled from CQC. The things we have done to make it work in CQC alternately make it overperform or neuter it with zero middle ground. Rattati has come the closest to proving me wrong but that balance is on a razor's edge and any changes to some random thing can throw it out of whack again. But if the AR/ARR perform better at the outer edges of their performance envelope and the RR and BAR work better in closer natively why are we forcing them opposite of that? Lore in New Eden is great. It's focused on ships. You can't balance an infantryman like a ship. It does not work. It only works in eve because of the systems in place. It works because everything is a number game. Tracking is a set number and a calculation, NOT a person`s ability to track just as one example. I agree, things that work in EVE dont necessarily work in DUST purely because this is an FPS. I've always disliked that the 4 races have to be pigeon holed into certain roles and certain battle tactics. You would have thought that all races would operate and have tactics for ALL ranges of combat. I mean we are slowly getting there I guess but I feel we have always took the arse-end way to balance and make his game fun. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Jathniel G I A N T 1260	Posted - 2014.11.14 09:41:00 - [27] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: People complained about the hipfire kick so the charge time was doubled Feedback? lol.... lets experiment with something real extreme... Burst Rail Rifle Quadrupole the charge time... Triple the rate of fire... Cut the magazine size in half. Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
xavier zor G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 223	Posted - 2014.11.14 09:53:00 - [28] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: xavier zor wrote: It is a worse solution I always switch to my SMG in close quarters when using the rail rifle, but when i see somebody and they see me within a decent range (outside SMG range) he gets 6 extra bullets (around 200hp) off me before i can shoot him? When i stop to recover, i pop my head around the crate to see him, he gets another 200hp off me before i start doing damage... I hate to say this again but...Woooooooww!!! Now let me ask a follow up...why not just precharge at those long ranges the same way it feels intuitive to do so for cqc? Because i precharge, then turn my head around the corner if he is still there hiding around HIS corner-shoot and hit nothing. OR shoot him if he poked his head out to then either of us hides. Several problems here such as wasted bullets, position giveaway and originally the only IDEAL situation for rail rifle long-range is when i KNOW the target is there in the open so i can pre-charge my RR and THEN he does not get the extra half a second to do damage to me. Highest plasma cannon kill: 132 metres
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4988	Posted - 2014.11.14 09:57:00 - [29] - Quote Precharge really only works when an enemy commits. Bluntly why are wtrying to make any weapon ineffective at any range? Less effective ok I can see but an ineffective weapon is a waste of ISK and SP. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2173	Posted - 2014.11.14 10:04:00 - [30] - Quote My jury is still out. Have to play it some more. Not liking either change (spool or kick), and both RR and ARR kick more than they did originally, I believe, even if it was dialed back from the original 4x increase. I will play some more and provide a more detailed and thoughtful response. I appreciate you asking, Z.



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