1. 10% ROF - Useless in most cases, try dualing AV and with the FG there is the chance of them missing but with swarms or any kind of AV hit on the Python it will rock and roll causing your ability to aim to be nonexistant which makes you lose precious seconds on trying to hit the target - The Python isnt used that much in general now because its softer than the Incubus which has no bonus for the missile but performs better due to the different in ships
1a. Splash is fine since direct hits aint always easy and missiles should have splash

2. -10% heat build up - That means instead of 10shots i get 11, that expensive for one shot
2a. -30% cooldown - Faster cooldown when overheating or just heating in general does allow more shots off if timing it right

3. The 1st python & incubus skills do not offer much for that hefty 2.4mil SP, the 2nd part of the skills are much more useful

Really love the thought you put into this, as always.

I somewhat preferred missile travel speed over splash damage as a bonus for the python. I'd rather see splash adjusted strictly by missile variant. My reasoning being a python could shoot from further away, more accurately, because it would need less of a lead on the target. Especially if rendiner improves, using missiles at longer ranges could be really interesting. Thoughts?

More people need to read this OP

1. 10% ROF - Useless in most cases, try dualing AV and with the FG there is the chance of them missing but with swarms or any kind of AV hit on the Python it will rock and roll causing your ability to aim to be nonexistant which makes you lose precious seconds on trying to hit the target - The Python isnt used that much in general now because its softer than the Incubus which has no bonus for the missile but performs better due to the different in ships
1a. Splash is fine since direct hits aint always easy and missiles should have splash

2. -10% heat build up - That means instead of 10shots i get 11, that expensive for one shot
2a. -30% cooldown - Faster cooldown when overheating or just heating in general does allow more shots off if timing it right

3. The 1st python & incubus skills do not offer much for that hefty 2.4mil SP, the 2nd part of the skills are much more useful

Concerning Python:

I can't agree with adding splash radius. It becomes a point where it gets far too forgiving with the shot. Shot's from an ADS should take skill to use, just my opinion.

And I'll also have to disagree with that ROF because I don't like the thought of the extra splash. It's not that it wasn't a bad idea, it's just that I don't agree with it.

Concerning Incubus:

I personally would like to see ROF bumped by 5%. Your idea is also good too.

Since 1.8, there have been some issues with the ADS that I, Rattati, and others in the community have brought up and I thought I'd try my hand at fixing them.

Some issues I'll try to address:

-Better bonuses
-More AV potential
-Splitting missile's AI / AV potential
-Scaling with levels

As far as AV aggression goes, I think everything is fine. I've personally witnessed first and second hand ADSs surviving and being killed by all manners of AV regularly, so I don't see any changes being necessary to AV offenses or ADS defenses (though I would like a small Python shield increase to be considered, or a skill that increases shield resistances).

So here's the DPS we have now, as a reference (all values will be with lvl5 skills, proto turrets, and firing as fast as possible until empty mag plus reload for missiles, rails until almost overheated and completely cooled down, unless otherwise stated):

Python Missile Direct: 316.772

Python Missile Splash: 249.241

Incubus Rail: 412.409

The splash on missiles is pretty good, but both the other ones are pretty bad for AV, considering this is perfect damage application and a Maddrugar could potentially fit over 200reps/sec.

Anyway, on to my suggestions:

Bonuses

Python: 2% RoF (10%), 10% Splash Radius (50%)
Incubus: -2% Heat Buildup (-10%), -6% Cooldown (-30%)

So yes, I've decided to keep the Python bonus to RoF the same and yes, that's a 50% bonus to splash radius. Before I get pilots and infantry get up in arms against me, most of the rebalancing is coming from the turrets themselves, be check those out below. These bonuses reflect the true nature of the Python: Damage application/ glass cannon.

The Incubus will really benefit from this bonus. The focus is for the rail but it has a great application for blasters if you wish (I just haven't ran any of the numbers for them). The idea being that you can provide a near reliable stream of shots so long as you don't overheat. Notice also that there is no bonus to overheating, so it will still be pretty severe. I would love to give it a 50% bonus (and reduce some damage a bit), but I don't know how skill stacking will effect it (giving it a negative value), so I compensated with a slight damage buff (DPS should be around 600 either way).

I am sad to suggest removing the ammo bonus, but I think it'd also play a role in balancing the ADS (just as long as we get safe Supply Depots in all the redlines).

(Note: all DPS values are with proto missiles, perfect skills, and perfect damage application, meaning all missiles fired and hit and reloaded immediately after, and rails fired until almost overheated with a pause until completely cooled down before resuming, reload disregarded)

MISSILES

The biggest problem with missiles on an ADS is that they make the Python exceptional at both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle (the Incubus to a lesser extent). The incubus doesn't have this problem as much with hybrid weapons since they're split into AV (rails) and AI (blasters). This was the inspiration I had to split the missiles into two variants: Accelerated and Fragmented.

Accelerated XTs (lvl5):

Damage = 525
Splash Damage = 125
RoF = 1 (0.9)
Clip = 8
Radius = .5m (0.75m)

Direct DPS: 474.51
Splash DPS: 107.843

As you can see, these missiles are tailored to AV. The large direct DPS makes taking out all vehicles more doable (and still a bit of a nerf since it's ~90% of pre-Delta DPS), yet still limiting AI in both damage and splash radius. There is still some potential for AI if you're a good shot, but the same could be said for the rail as well. I would, however, suggest adding a -20% direct damage nerf to infantry. The higher RoF makes air-to-air much easier, as well as unstated increases to missile velocity and range.

Fragmented XTs (lvl5):

Damage = 300
Splash Damage = 300
RoF = 1.2 (1.08)
Clip = 10
PRBNew = 2.75 (4.125)

Direct DPS: 239.13
Splash DPS: 239.13

The Fragmented missile is the AI missile. The 4.125m blast radius is roughly the side of a standard nanohive pulse, for scale while the current 2.5m is 1/4 larger than a compact nanohive. Note that this is also a slight nerf in DPS (the only increase comes from the two extra missiles in the magazine). This turret will be excellent for clearing links and crowd control (i.e. killing a bunch of people standing together). To be honest, in a 1-on-1 engagement vs an infantry player, the current missile, with a 2.5m radius, will just as easily kill you as this 4.125m radius missile, so the only real buff is its crowd control potential. I would also suggest reducing the max range to about 150m to prevent people sniping out of swarm range.

These should be the only two missiles available. I know cycled are a favorite by some, but I don't really see how they could fit in this outline of turrets. Personally, I think more pilots would be comfortable with a single shot missile than being forced into a cycled for AI. They could possibly be introduced as a redundant AI type missile, so if you want to provide with stats, be my guest. Standard missiles that are good at both AV and AI shouldn't be allowed, even if they are inferior to both in each trait.

RAILS

The biggest changes I've made to rails come through the Incubus bonuses.

Particle Cannon (lvl5):

Damage = 450
Max Heat = 99.9 (just before overheating)
Heat Per Shot = 10
RoF = .5
CoolDown = 5

Shots to Brink-Overheat: 9 (12)
Cool down: 5s (3.5s)
Seize: 8s

DPS: 614.706

The only changes are to overheat and cool down, but these two play a huge factor in the damage application, making the Incubus skill dire for optimization. Interestingly enough, the math works out so that you get an extra shot at level 1,3, and 5. The DPS will be very useful, and it's still a nerf from pre-Delta by almost 15%.

Well, that's it. Thanks for reading. Please correct if any math is wrong. I'm out ofspac

Oh, and for everyone's information,

this is how you really play Dust514.

First of all, +1 for your diplomatic approach. I am not so diplomatic, but I am sound harsh, its just critque, nothing personal. Smarter people than i have proposed much more than me.

Though i strongly disagree with your AV assertion as well as the overwhelming majority of ADS community, (including you, buff pythons shields eh? surely you mean nerf ) ratatti aint gonna budge an inch, and literally troll us. And by AV i mean just swarms because i dont have a problem with a wyrokami breach 2 shotting me, but i have a massive problem with swarms having zero counters besides take your hits)

AV Missiles
On the missiles, if we are going to give them the Python the Anti Vehicle role of the incubus then this is the way to go.

It would have a higher rate of fire than the incubus, does roughly more damage as my proto rail turrets currently, plus splash to kil any body who landed and jumped out, as well as the ability to kill any uplinks placed in precarious positions. The python becomes the replacement for the incubs at all levels.

AI missiles

Redundant: 2 shot kill any suit with the your AV variant, really the fragemented is a PC specialist weapon. Lots of damage over a wide area, like logis and heavy chains perhaps. It would absolutley mureder in pubs with that splash.

Incubus rail: This proposal does nothing to improve the incubs because currently i already do have more shots per level, and with your buff its still weaker than a python with your AV missiles on it.

bonus: 10% buildup is useless, look at the amarr assault bonus, its at least 5% per level to make any difference to the laser rifle. I'd tak ROF and more damage application than heat build up anyway.

-Snip-

I mentioned that most of the Python changes would come through missile changes: the Accelerated missile got a longer range and higher speed to improve anti-air/ vehicle capabilities. The Fragmented didn't get this because I don't want people sniping infantry out of swarm range

Bookmarked and ignored. Soontm ads

Python definitely does not need even more survivability over the Incubus. I can absorb so much damage in a Python compared to an Incubus.

Small rails in practice dont seem to do any better damage than small missile simply because skilled targets break your LoS and force you to turn and re aim. In that time, missiles are reloaded. Also, missiles never overheat. Theyre ok as side guns but a 15% RoF is negligible so fitting one to the side of a python isnt really any worse than on an Incubus.

The problem with balancing strictly around data is that you lose sight of how it actually plays out in game with skilled players. No good ADS pilot is going to let you maintain LoS for very long

Python definitely does not need even more survivability over the Incubus. I can absorb so much damage in a Python compared to an Incubus.

The problem with balancing strictly around data is that you lose sight of how it actually plays out in game with skilled players. No good ADS pilot is going to let you maintain LoS for very long

To be fair, these are all things i would to love see tested out before being implemented, and niether you nor i have adressed on how to make the small blaster a good air to ground turret.

Also, dont sleep on the effeectiveness of even a small splash radius on the AV turrets, about 1 meter splash had already been deemed a significant enough a threat to Infantry to have it removed from all large and small rail turrets as well as large blaster turrets.

It is a massive advantage, that i will most likley fit on my incubus, especially considering the current 15 ROF make zero difference between a python and a missile incubus 10% ROF even less so.

There are details about the assault dropship that have been bothering me more lately than before.

I am going with the assumption that the Incubus was intended to have more staying power in an engagement and that the Python was intended to have more of an ambush, hit and run role.

Right now the strategy for either ship is very similar, depending on pilot of course. It can be summed up in a flow chart, rather easily.

-Move to an area, acquire targets
-If AV is present -> use defensive modules
-If defensive modules can tank AV
>- Neutralize the AV, IF NOT
>- use them to buy time and get out of range of AV

Due to the high alpha power of every form of AV that a drop ship needs to worry about, the only option that can tank and attempt to neutralize av is ACTIVE TANKING. In other words, shields.

No amount of armor rep or armor HP can offer STAYING POWER to a dropship anymore. Right now the meta is reversed, with the python having "staying power" and the incubus needing to use every resource possible to get away whenever AV is present.


I am a Python, Incubus and Myron Pilot.

This is actually only true for Swarms, and is the biggest reason I'm so displeased with them.

With forges, it is possible to dodge incoming fire by orbiting and maneuvering around and above the enemy forger. It then becomes a contest of skill between an ADS flying and a forger forging (which I would argue the forger has the advantage in most cases). This means that there is more than just numbers at work, actual player skill plays a much larger part in surviving the engagement on both sides, and, I think, makes the game more fun for both parities.

This is not the case with swarms. With swarms, all player skill goes out the window since they're impossible to dodge and virtually guaranteed to hit for every lock (unless the ADS is a good distance and is actively running away at the time of launch). This, on top of doing near forge-level damage and a myriad of bugs, makes them very potent, and the only real way to deal with them is to run away and hope you can find the swarmer before the finds you, surprising him and killing him.

But this thread should only be about ADS turrets and bonuses, so I'd like to focus on that here.