DUST Search - Fixing the ADSs [WARNING: Number Intensive]

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

Kaeru Nayiri wrote:

There are details about the assault dropship that have been bothering me more lately than before.

I am going with the assumption that the Incubus was intended to have more staying power in an engagement and that the Python was intended to have more of an ambush, hit and run role.

Right now the strategy for either ship is very similar, depending on pilot of course. It can be summed up in a flow chart, rather easily.

-Move to an area, acquire targets
-If AV is present -> use defensive modules
-If defensive modules can tank AV
>- Neutralize the AV, IF NOT
>- use them to buy time and get out of range of AV

Due to the high alpha power of every form of AV that a drop ship needs to worry about, the only option that can tank and attempt to neutralize av is ACTIVE TANKING. In other words, shields.

No amount of armor rep or armor HP can offer STAYING POWER to a dropship anymore. Right now the meta is reversed, with the python having "staying power" and the incubus needing to use every resource possible to get away whenever AV is present.

I am a Python, Incubus and Myron Pilot.

This is actually only true for Swarms, and is the biggest reason I'm so displeased with them.

With forges, it is possible to dodge incoming fire by orbiting and maneuvering around and above the enemy forger. It then becomes a contest of skill between an ADS flying and a forger forging (which I would argue the forger has the advantage in most cases). This means that there is more than just numbers at work, actual player skill plays a much larger part in surviving the engagement on both sides, and, I think, makes the game more fun for both parities.

This is not the case with swarms. With swarms, all player skill goes out the window since they're impossible to dodge and virtually guaranteed to hit for every lock (unless the ADS is a good distance and is actively running away at the time of launch). This, on top of doing near forge-level damage and a myriad of bugs, makes them very potent, and the only real way to deal with them is to run away and hope you can find the swarmer before the finds you, surprising him and killing him.

But this thread should only be about ADS turrets and bonuses, so I'd like to focus on that here.

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Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2556	Posted - 2014.11.15 21:30:00 - [31] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Python definitely does not need even more survivability over the Incubus. I can absorb so much damage in a Python compared to an Incubus. Far enough, though I just wish damage application of swarms was hampered a bit. DUST Fiend wrote: Small rails in practice dont seem to do any better damage than small missile simply because skilled targets break your LoS and force you to turn and re aim. In that time, missiles are reloaded. Also, missiles never overheat. Theyre ok as side guns but a 15% RoF is negligible so fitting one to the side of a python isnt really any worse than on an Incubus. The problem with balancing strictly around data is that you lose sight of how it actually plays out in game with skilled players. No good ADS pilot is going to let you maintain LoS for very long I actually put a lot to thought into practical damage application rather than just DPS, that's how I came up with the bonuses for the Incubus. I don't see how a target getting out of LoS makes missiles any better; it may actually make missiles worse due to travel time and being forced to reload missed shots (a rail has more ammo in its mag and only has to wait for cool down, which after a few shots isn't really that long, much less than reloading). The RoF isn't much of a bonus, but the cool down is what really helps the rail, meaning as long as the pilot can not overheat and keep up, he can effectively wall the enemy ADS. Rails were, and imo still are, the best air-to-air turret. The higher RoF means more shots in the short engagement times. Instant damage means they're just point and shoot without having to consider trajectory, leading, etc. Longer range (on top of instant damage) means you can engage sooner as well as when the enemy is attempting to get away (I've gotten many kills on the edge of my effective range while a Python was fleeing). All in all, the rail is just better, and I can only see it getting better with the bonuses I've suggested. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 15070	Posted - 2014.11.15 21:57:00 - [32] - Quote Im glad rails seem to be working for you, but 2 years of flying Incubus doesnt seem to make them any more reliable for me, and ive never had an issue aiming them. Some day when I have my recording stuff back ill make some videos, I just find small missiles to be far mors reliable AV in practice, plus amazing AI at the same time. Plus, a Python has about double the survivabilty as an Incubus aside from 2 shot rails, which 2 shot either ship in most cases. I see very little difference in air to air combat with the lower rate of fire, but I also have no issues leading. The perk to 2 years of dedicated flying haha Logistics Vehicles Bitter Vet extraordinaire, vehicle specialist, sarcastic prick
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 958	Posted - 2014.11.15 22:55:00 - [33] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Python definitely does not need even more survivability over the Incubus. I can absorb so much damage in a Python compared to an Incubus. As with the AVers that cry about Swarms not being effective enough against Pythons, the issue is the lack of anti-shield AV. I've used the plasma cannon against armour HAVs, and this essentially the same as Swarms vs Pythons. If we have reliable anti-shield AV weapons (like how the FG and Swarms are able to be used effectively) then we'd have the full field and armour vehicles would not be at a disadvantage. So yes, you can absorb more damage, but only because of the lack of a balanced field, not because Incubi are inherently worse. DUST Fiend wrote: The problem with balancing strictly around data is that you lose sight of how it actually plays out in game with skilled players. No good ADS pilot is going to let you maintain LoS for very long Indeed. This is the biggest reason why I have a big problem with Rattati's V/AV balancing: he has next to no idea how the game plays from the vehicle side of things, dropships especially. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 15072	Posted - 2014.11.15 23:28:00 - [34] - Quote I dont even bring up the shield vs armor AV discrepancy anymore because Rat straight up denies it, and I STRONGLY doubt we will see any new weapons anytime soon. Besides, all that would do is highlight how painfully UP vehicles are lol. Logistics Vehicles Bitter Vet extraordinaire, vehicle specialist, sarcastic prick
Tebu Gan Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1226	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:44:00 - [35] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: To be fair, these are all things i would to love see tested out before being implemented, and niether you nor i have adressed on how to make the small blaster a good air to ground turret. Also, dont sleep on the effeectiveness of even a small splash radius on the AV turrets, about 1 meter splash had already been deemed a significant enough a threat to Infantry to have it removed from all large and small rail turrets as well as large blaster turrets. It is a massive advantage, that i will most likley fit on my incubus, especially considering the current 15 ROF make zero difference between a python and a missile incubus 10% ROF even less so. How to make the blaster better from the air: SPLASH DAMAGE ( IE ADS specific buff to Splash damage over ROF for blasters) Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1226	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:46:00 - [36] - Quote Thought I might throw this in there, anybody else know that vehicles are completely unfinished, being stripped down to "bare essentials" never to be finished but continually nerfed until they realize they should have at the very least attempted to "finish" with vehicles. (circa 1.6) Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 181	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:18:00 - [37] - Quote There are details about the assault dropship that have been bothering me more lately than before. I am going with the assumption that the Incubus was intended to have more staying power in an engagement and that the Python was intended to have more of an ambush, hit and run role. Right now the strategy for either ship is very similar, depending on pilot of course. It can be summed up in a flow chart, rather easily. -Move to an area, acquire targets -If AV is present -> use defensive modules -If defensive modules can tank AV >- Neutralize the AV, IF NOT >- use them to buy time and get out of range of AV Due to the high alpha power of every form of AV that a drop ship needs to worry about, the only option that can tank and attempt to neutralize av is ACTIVE TANKING. In other words, shields. No amount of armor rep or armor HP can offer STAYING POWER to a dropship anymore. Right now the meta is reversed, with the python having "staying power" and the incubus needing to use every resource possible to get away whenever AV is present. I am a Python, Incubus and Myron Pilot.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2574	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:26:00 - [38] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: There are details about the assault dropship that have been bothering me more lately than before. I am going with the assumption that the Incubus was intended to have more staying power in an engagement and that the Python was intended to have more of an ambush, hit and run role. Right now the strategy for either ship is very similar, depending on pilot of course. It can be summed up in a flow chart, rather easily. -Move to an area, acquire targets -If AV is present -> use defensive modules -If defensive modules can tank AV >- Neutralize the AV, IF NOT >- use them to buy time and get out of range of AV Due to the high alpha power of every form of AV that a drop ship needs to worry about, the only option that can tank and attempt to neutralize av is ACTIVE TANKING. In other words, shields. No amount of armor rep or armor HP can offer STAYING POWER to a dropship anymore. Right now the meta is reversed, with the python having "staying power" and the incubus needing to use every resource possible to get away whenever AV is present. I am a Python, Incubus and Myron Pilot. This is actually only true for Swarms, and is the biggest reason I'm so displeased with them. With forges, it is possible to dodge incoming fire by orbiting and maneuvering around and above the enemy forger. It then becomes a contest of skill between an ADS flying and a forger forging (which I would argue the forger has the advantage in most cases). This means that there is more than just numbers at work, actual player skill plays a much larger part in surviving the engagement on both sides, and, I think, makes the game more fun for both parities. This is not the case with swarms. With swarms, all player skill goes out the window since they're impossible to dodge and virtually guaranteed to hit for every lock (unless the ADS is a good distance and is actively running away at the time of launch). This, on top of doing near forge-level damage and a myriad of bugs, makes them very potent, and the only real way to deal with them is to run away and hope you can find the swarmer before the finds you, surprising him and killing him. But this thread should only be about ADS turrets and bonuses, so I'd like to focus on that here. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 182	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:35:00 - [39] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: There are details about the assault dropship that have been bothering me more lately than before. I am going with the assumption that the Incubus was intended to have more staying power in an engagement and that the Python was intended to have more of an ambush, hit and run role. Right now the strategy for either ship is very similar, depending on pilot of course. It can be summed up in a flow chart, rather easily. -Move to an area, acquire targets -If AV is present -> use defensive modules -If defensive modules can tank AV >- Neutralize the AV, IF NOT >- use them to buy time and get out of range of AV Due to the high alpha power of every form of AV that a drop ship needs to worry about, the only option that can tank and attempt to neutralize av is ACTIVE TANKING. In other words, shields. No amount of armor rep or armor HP can offer STAYING POWER to a dropship anymore. Right now the meta is reversed, with the python having "staying power" and the incubus needing to use every resource possible to get away whenever AV is present. I am a Python, Incubus and Myron Pilot. This is actually only true for Swarms, and is the biggest reason I'm so displeased with them. With forges, it is possible to dodge incoming fire by orbiting and maneuvering around and above the enemy forger. It then becomes a contest of skill between an ADS flying and a forger forging (which I would argue the forger has the advantage in most cases). This means that there is more than just numbers at work, actual player skill plays a much larger part in surviving the engagement on both sides, and, I think, makes the game more fun for both parities. This is not the case with swarms. With swarms, all player skill goes out the window since they're impossible to dodge and virtually guaranteed to hit for every lock (unless the ADS is a good distance and is actively running away at the time of launch). This, on top of doing near forge-level damage and a myriad of bugs, makes them very potent, and the only real way to deal with them is to run away and hope you can find the swarmer before the finds you, surprising him and killing him. But this thread should only be about ADS turrets and bonuses, so I'd like to focus on that here. Sorry Vulpes, you are right, that was off topic. All the constructive posts in this thread are great and we've discussed them down thoroughly. All that's left is to implement them, so we can test, tweak and balance.


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