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reducing ADS rof SP cost

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Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2913	Posted - 2014.10.26 12:41:00 - [1] - Quote as it is currently, the SP cost being paid for our rof is, from whom i've asked, and my personal opinion, too much. as it is now, our max rof for each ADS are as follows python rof per level= 0.036 python rof= 1.02 our max rof is not enough to break an armor suit/vehicles rep cycle, which being an explosive, i find it a little odd. incubus rof per level= 0.0195 incubus rof= 0.5525 honestly saying, due to this crappy rof alone, i can only count one incubus pilot that has ever given me trouble. take a bow, carbonite. i even asked a lot of experienced pilots their opinion on the rof. every single one said it wasn't worth it period, and others added to that said it wasn't worth the askin SP cost. i even asked a few people in GD (shudders), and an AV user gave a list of skills he believed was worth going level 5 into, rof for either ADS was not there. i would provide a link, but i'm on my ps3. laptop defragging. main issue with us pilots as of now is our rof, the largest skill SP wise,isn't worth it now. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1646	Posted - 2014.10.26 13:46:00 - [2] - Quote "But, Caldari and Gallante Dropship Skills are the same as the suit skills, they have a major(Now, Ammo capacity) and minor(RoF) bonus, so they should cost the same SP-wise." "Also, don't forget that your pre-req skill also gives you a bonus, our basic frame skills don't." These are responses I figured to see. I, however, would agree with this. +1 If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
PARTH0K 0uter.Heaven 8	Posted - 2014.10.26 15:46:00 - [3] - Quote [quote=Derrith Erador]as it is currently, the SP cost being paid for our rof is, from whom i've asked, and my personal opinion, too much. +1 I agree man. It's way to much
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2350	Posted - 2014.10.26 15:47:00 - [4] - Quote ^The Gal and Cal suits needing a bonus change doesn't detract from the ADSs needing a bonus change as well and just as (if not more) urgently. I'd like to see both done, but I can't speek for the Gal/Cal suits since I don't use them. To OP: Really the solution should be to give them bonuses that are actually worth spending all the SP on. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2918	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:03:00 - [5] - Quote shameless bump R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 178	Posted - 2014.10.27 00:41:00 - [6] - Quote Agreed, although my preference would not be a skill point reduction but an increase from 15% ROF to 35% ROF allowing ads to kill tanks once more.... For gods sake tanks can 2 shot ads, the ads needs at least a chance... Any av and it can't stay around for more than 5 seconds... So why does it take 2 minutes to kill tanks NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Atiim 13179	Posted - 2014.10.27 02:43:00 - [7] - Quote How about making the bonuses worth the SP? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9311	Posted - 2014.10.27 05:41:00 - [8] - Quote Lets see how the ROF penalty removal plays out for the Incubus (tomorrow) "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 256	Posted - 2014.10.27 07:11:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Lets see how the ROF penalty removal plays out for the Incubus (tomorrow) As far as i understand it though, will it not increase the ROF, just give incubus pilots the same number of shots before we over heat? Even before delta, the amount of shots before the rail turrets overheats was identical to a raill turret (12) without the bonus, we just got to let the shots off much faster, we could get all 24 shots off in a much shorter space of time, so other vehicls could not out rep them. On Tuesday, i'm fairly certain my 7 shots will increase to 8, and not that ROF will become wortth 2.2. millon SP. Will let you know post tuesday downtime., Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Her Chosen Grade No.2 0	Posted - 2014.10.27 10:58:00 - [10] - Quote A 15% ROF as compared to the prior 50%. That's 33% of it original. Or, a 67% decrease. Imagine reducing a Dropsuit Racial bonus by 67& with a nerf. That would seem ridiculous, because of the SP invested. It would seem there has always been a prejudice in this game against vehicle users. The millions of SP they spend into their role doesn't seem to have the same respect as infantry. Vehicle users have never been respected by the community, or CCP. The final level for Incubus or Python is 1.2million SP. Who is going to spend 1.2 million SP to get 3% increase to ROF. 3% is meaningless, especially for that kind of cost. To nerf something that drastic, without the option for a respec, is unbalanced.

Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1297	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:17:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Lets see how the ROF penalty removal plays out for the Incubus (tomorrow) Why are you entertaining this Rattati .?. it's so obvious that this is because of the ROF change and the unhappy feedback about not having a OP 50% ROF increase , I mean .. are you serious Rattati ??? At some point you people need to put your foot down because the catering to these people will be never ending if you don't and this games parameters need to be defined and every time that someone is unhappy with something and you go changing it will take this or any other game that you invest your time and creativity in, will get skewed from your design . You can't satisfy these people and they will complain about everything that doesn't hand them kills and games on a silver platter . But it's your choice and your the DEV , it just seems like a recipe for doom if you ask me . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 256	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:39:00 - [12] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: You can't satisfy these people and they will complain about everything that doesn't hand them kills and games on a silver platter . Where does your complaints factor into all of this? How is fixng the rail turret so it shoots the same amount of rounds as an unmodded turret handing pilots 'kills and games'' Unmodded rail turret : 8 rounds then over heats Incubus levels 3- 5: 7 rounds then over heats Incubus Level 5+ gunner level 5: 5 rounds then overheats. Rail turrets pre delta: 12 rounds before over heat Incubus minimum skill level (ROF increase) to kill a tank pre delta : Level 5, 8x skill point 2.2. million SP, Current Incubus maximum skill level (pre balance) insufficcient. I honetly would like to know your objection to this. And specifically why having an incubus shoot 8 rounds before overheating is not only game breaking but against the creativity and game design of the devs? Or are you just whining just to do so? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4018	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:00:00 - [13] - Quote There is something seriously up with the incubus heat mechanics. It came up during my testing with ResistanceGTA. The ratman says they're unscrewing a glitch caused by the skill. So let's see if that unscrews the problem. Besides, when vehicle guns are effective I take great joy in destroying them. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Darth-Carbonite GIO Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1200	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:40:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Lets see how the ROF penalty removal plays out for the Incubus (tomorrow) I literally can not wait. Gonna practice my strafes to pass the time... Thanks for the mention, Derrith. The Incubus is Broken Judge Rhadamanthus is my Hero
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3298	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:41:00 - [15] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: A 15% ROF as compared to the prior 50%. That's 33% of it original. Or, a 67% decrease. Imagine reducing a Dropsuit Racial bonus by 67& with a nerf. That would seem ridiculous, because of the SP invested. Imagine a Dropsuit Racial Bonus that gave a 50% increase to DPS. That would seem ridiculous. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2921	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:41:00 - [16] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Lets see how the ROF penalty removal plays out for the Incubus (tomorrow) Why are you entertaining this Rattati .?. it's so obvious that this is because of the ROF change and the unhappy feedback about not having a OP 50% ROF increase , I mean .. are you serious Rattati ??? At some point you people need to put your foot down because the catering to these people will be never ending if you don't and this games parameters need to be defined and every time that someone is unhappy with something and you go changing it will take this or any other game that you invest your time and creativity in, will get skewed from your design . You can't satisfy these people and they will complain about everything that doesn't hand them kills and games on a silver platter . But it's your choice and your the DEV , it just seems like a recipe for doom if you ask me . Oh, I'm going to enjoy this. I've got two questions for you, and they are: 1) where did I say that I was wanting our old 50% percent back? I've made multiple threads saying to the contrary, so go ahead and show me exactly where I said giving us our old 50% is justified? 2) You clearly don't fly. If you did, you'd be right there along with us when delta flushed 2.4 to 4.8 mil of our SP down the drain, heck, maybe more. I'm going to give you a scenario, you have a fresh character with 15 mil sp (about enough to be a decent pilot), no more, no less. You're going to skill into piloting with this guy. Give me a list of skills you'd invest in, then afterwards give me two protofit links, one with the dropsuit you'll be using, and one with your preferred ADS fit. I will then properly poke as many holes as I possibly can in your little flyboy outfit. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2921	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:44:00 - [17] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Her Chosen wrote: A 15% ROF as compared to the prior 50%. That's 33% of it original. Or, a 67% decrease. Imagine reducing a Dropsuit Racial bonus by 67& with a nerf. That would seem ridiculous, because of the SP invested. Imagine a Dropsuit Racial Bonus that gave a 50% increase to DPS. That would seem ridiculous. Again, I'll ask you the same question I asked shinobi. Where did I say that giving our 50% ROF back was reasonable? R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2921	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:46:00 - [18] - Quote Atiim wrote: How about making the bonuses worth the SP? And how would that go about? I like the idea, I'm just not sure that I like the other ideas I've come across, other than a 5% ROF per level. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3298	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:48:00 - [19] - Quote Let me ask you this, what is the SP Multiplier for your standard Light Weapon Proficiency? What is the multiplier for the Assault Dropship skill? Also note that damage increase for proficiency is only against Armor or Shields, RoF is a raw DPS increase, and is not specific to armor or shield damage. That being said, a RoF bonus is worth more than proficiency due to this increased benefit. I'm not arguing against you (yet maybe), but I don't have the SP multiplier data in front of me, so I'd like to take a look at that and compare your dropship racial bonus vs a Weapon Proficiency bonus. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2921	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:55:00 - [20] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Let me ask you this, what is the SP Multiplier for your standard Light Weapon Proficiency? What is the multiplier for the Assault Dropship skill? Also note that damage increase for proficiency is only against Armor or Shields, RoF is a raw DPS increase, and is not specific to armor or shield damage. That being said, a RoF bonus is worth more than proficiency due to this increased benefit. I'm not arguing against you (yet maybe), but I don't have the SP multiplier data in front of me, so I'd like to take a look at that and compare your dropship racial bonus vs a Weapon Proficiency bonus. Light weapon prof is at a 5x multiplier, about 1.5 mil fully into it. Assault dropship skill is at a multiplier of 6x, which equals out to about a little above 1.8 mil maxed. if you meant the racial ADS, the one that controls our ROF, that's an 8x, working out to 2.4 mil each. Honestly speaking, I'd like so see ALL weapons get a 20% nerf (including AV), then get a 2% bonus to raw damage per level on proficiency, but that's just me. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3299	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:01:00 - [21] - Quote I just checked the proficiency SP costs over on Protofits. Caldari Assault Dropships V: 2,487,360 SP [Light Weapon] Proficiency: 1,554,600 SP SP Difference: 37.5% Proficiency offers +15% DPS to armor OR shields Assault Dropships offer +15% DPS to both armor AND shields I consider that roughly double the benefit for 37.5% more cost. In my eyes it looks like you guys are getting a pretty solid deal. Plus isn't skill stacking still a thing? Light weapons dont receive a DPS bonus for other foot soldiers skills in their area, so that's an added benefit for ADS as well. Sorry but I think your simply off base here, your Cost/Benefit ratio for ADS is simply better than an infantry weapon bonus. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2921	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:13:00 - [22] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I just checked the proficiency SP costs over on Protofits. Caldari Assault Dropships V: 2,487,360 SP [Light Weapon] Proficiency: 1,554,600 SP SP Difference: 37.5% Proficiency offers +15% DPS to armor OR shields Assault Dropships offer +15% DPS to both armor AND shields I consider that roughly double the benefit for 37.5% more cost. In my eyes it looks like you guys are getting a pretty solid deal. Plus isn't skill stacking still a thing? Light weapons dont receive a DPS bonus for other foot soldiers skills in their area, so that's an added benefit for ADS as well. Sorry but I think your simply off base here, your Cost/Benefit ratio for ADS is simply better than an infantry weapon bonus. Afraid I'd have to disagree with that. I've done the math on this as well, and the ROF bonus we receive is not worth the SP we put into it, at least not level 5, 4 is barely worth it. The rockets aren't able to pierce an armor tanks rep cycle, even with maxed out CAL ADS. Rattati has said himself that ADS should be a threat to tanks, how are we supposed to be a threat to something that our weapons can't even break the rep cycle of, especially putting into the fact that rockets have a damage profile of -20% shields and +20% armor. But this is clearly a situation where we're probably not going to agree with each other. I still get what you say, I just won't back that. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3299	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:20:00 - [23] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I just checked the proficiency SP costs over on Protofits. Caldari Assault Dropships V: 2,487,360 SP [Light Weapon] Proficiency: 1,554,600 SP SP Difference: 37.5% Proficiency offers +15% DPS to armor OR shields Assault Dropships offer +15% DPS to both armor AND shields I consider that roughly double the benefit for 37.5% more cost. In my eyes it looks like you guys are getting a pretty solid deal. Plus isn't skill stacking still a thing? Light weapons dont receive a DPS bonus for other foot soldiers skills in their area, so that's an added benefit for ADS as well. Sorry but I think your simply off base here, your Cost/Benefit ratio for ADS is simply better than an infantry weapon bonus. Afraid I'd have to disagree with that. I've done the math on this as well, and the ROF bonus we receive is not worth the SP we put into it, at least not level 5, 4 is barely worth it. The rockets aren't able to pierce an armor tanks rep cycle, even with maxed out CAL ADS. Rattati has said himself that ADS should be a threat to tanks, how are we supposed to be a threat to something that our weapons can't even break the rep cycle of, especially putting into the fact that rockets have a damage profile of -20% shields and +20% armor. But this is clearly a situation where we're probably not going to agree with each other. I still get what you say, I just won't back that. Well that sounds like its more of an issue with balance between HAV defense and dropship offense. If you want to make an argument about the damage that the small missile turrets do that's fine, but in terms of what the RoF bonus actually does compared to what a proficiency bonus does, it's reasonably in line. I can admit that RoF isn't quite as useful as increase damage since the damage per magazine doesn't increase, but the added benefit of armor and shield damage is substantial enough to merit a slightly higher SP cost than proficiency. As for damage profiles well...that's just the nature of the beast, and again not a function of the bonus. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2921	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:46:00 - [24] - Quote Well that seems solid enough. But I'm still either going to shoot for getting at least getting a 5% ROF or reducing the SP cost. AV users and ADS pilots I've talked to have said that it isn't worth it, especially for the asking price. As it is, ADS are the most SP intensive role in this game, and that is because not only does the vehicle bonus need skilling, but the dropsuit you fly inside the cockpit also matters. Next issue is that our ROF when battling AV users, it isn't worth going past level 4. The charge time of an assault forge shot takes 2.25 seconds, with level 4 ROF I can get 2 shots in before the forge releases his payload. level 4 ROF: 1.056 The last level, which should be the most important in this scenario, is nothing more than convenient to me. Swarms maxed out take 1.05 seconds to lock on and about .25? seconds to release payload (accounting for travel time as well) Level 5 ROF is not worth it in this situation, I still get a good shot off before all that, and when he reloads with maxed out reload speed +commando reload (seems to be very popular among AV users) The reload speed is the exact same as the assault forge charge time. Again, I get two shots off with level 4 rof, level 5 is still just convenient. The last skill into it is 1.2 mil sp, my chief concern is that it's worth it. Well, that took too long to type. Sorry for the long response. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3299	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:55:00 - [25] - Quote Well we'll agree to disagree on that bit, I just wanted to lay out my argument with some numbers but in the end its gonna come down to the qualitative worth of RoF with Armor and Shield damage vs straight up damage vs armor or shields. As for AV I have not dug into the nitty gritty of lock times vs rate of fire, though I will say that often level 5 of any skill is often dubious in its usefulness, especially compared to its SP cost. In general I consider level 5 something you train when you have nothing better to spend SP On. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2361	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:27:00 - [26] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Atiim wrote: How about making the bonuses worth the SP? And how would that go about? I like the idea, I'm just not sure that I like the other ideas I've come across, other than a 5% ROF per level. Incubus should get a heat up and cool down bonus (unsure of the numbers, but it needs to be able to shot more rails and more often). Python, I'm unsure about honestly. I'd like a higher RoF bonus (4-5% probably), though other options are large blast radius and/or missile speed (both of which I'd rather see fulfilled with turret variants). Other possibilities (assuming missiles variants are sufficiently implemented) are agility and shield resistance, and probably other I'm not considering right now. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:34:00 - [27] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: Atiim wrote: How about making the bonuses worth the SP? And how would that go about? I like the idea, I'm just not sure that I like the other ideas I've come across, other than a 5% ROF per level. Incubus should get a heat up and cool down bonus (unsure of the numbers, but it needs to be able to shot more rails and more often). Python, I'm unsure about honestly. I'd like a higher RoF bonus (4-5% probably), though other options are large blast radius and/or missile speed (both of which I'd rather see fulfilled with turret variants). Other possibilities (assuming missiles variants are sufficiently implemented) are agility and shield resistance, and probably other I'm not considering right now. Missile flight speed is a big favourite of mine. I'd love to see both larger blast radius and faster flight speed attached to the skill OR in the form of variants. Actually I wanted an excuse to say: Vulpes, I love your signature change and it gave me a hearty chuckle. Good stuff ! XD
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2361	Posted - 2014.10.27 19:44:00 - [28] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: Atiim wrote: How about making the bonuses worth the SP? And how would that go about? I like the idea, I'm just not sure that I like the other ideas I've come across, other than a 5% ROF per level. Incubus should get a heat up and cool down bonus (unsure of the numbers, but it needs to be able to shot more rails and more often). Python, I'm unsure about honestly. I'd like a higher RoF bonus (4-5% probably), though other options are large blast radius and/or missile speed (both of which I'd rather see fulfilled with turret variants). Other possibilities (assuming missiles variants are sufficiently implemented) are agility and shield resistance, and probably other I'm not considering right now. Missile flight speed is a big favourite of mine. I'd love to see both larger blast radius and faster flight speed attached to the skill OR in the form of variants. Actually I wanted an excuse to say: Vulpes, I love your signature change and it gave me a hearty chuckle. Good stuff ! XD Thanks! From what Rattati has said about ADSs being "too good at everything," the ideal, to me at least, would be to break up its AV and AI potential. The Incubus already has this in that the Rail isn't very good at killing infantry (it still can, but it's far more difficult) and the blaster can't kill ~~anything~~ vehicles (and its missiles are inferior to the Pythons for both, at least by a degree). The Python on the other hand is excellent at both at all times, which is why I'd like to split missiles into Fragmented (large radius and decent splash damage for killing infantry, low direct damage as to limit use against vehicles) and Accelerated (large direct damage, longer range and faster flight for anti-air fights, very small splash radius and low splash damage). If possible, I'd like to see each be somewhat viable at each other's role, but obviously with a lot of difficulty. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 181	Posted - 2014.10.27 23:27:00 - [29] - Quote The "infantry don't have this "op" skill" argument is fundamentally invalid. 1) infantry weapons have very low TTK compared to ads 2) ads CANNOT perform against tanks wthout this skill 3) infantry have 15% proficiency + damage mods, an incubus can only use its high slot for afterburner or die. If the incubus in its natural state could kill a madrugars it'd be great, but it can't, so this skill is needed. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 586	Posted - 2014.10.28 00:11:00 - [30] - Quote What if... We just remove the skill, since no other vehicles get anything like it? Then you fit whatever turret you want to whatever you want... No more Bus beats Python, no more having to balance dropship turret usage against regular turret usage... A lot of problems just kind of go away. No more issue of differing opinions over skill worth, since that is what this is, there's no "math" that can find the "true" value of something in game that is completely unrelated to something else.

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 257	Posted - 2014.10.28 06:44:00 - [31] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Her Chosen wrote: A 15% ROF as compared to the prior 50%. That's 33% of it original. Or, a 67% decrease. Imagine reducing a Dropsuit Racial bonus by 67& with a nerf. That would seem ridiculous, because of the SP invested. Imagine a Dropsuit Racial Bonus that gave a 50% increase to DPS. That would seem ridiculous. Imagine speccing into Caldari scout (50% bonus to Scan Radius) but you have the - same slots as a militia suit - Less slots than a standard suit - About 100 - 200 less HP - more than twice as expensive as the other proto dropsuits - Proto suit + Proto HP modules the minimum standard - having a ion pistol sidearm that over heats faster than the miitia one. And because people who don't run Caldari Scout think 50 percent is such a high number compared to the other suits, it should be taken all the way down to 15 percent bonus. Because its a ''big'' number. You think there would be any caldari scouts left not demanding for a respec? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.


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