DUST Search - [PROPOSAL]Sentinel battle role

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Imp Smash wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Imp Smash wrote:

HMG really isn't the highest DPS weapon in the game due to dispersion. It's just pretty high up there.

But the heavy HP thing is a result of their GIANT hitbox (heavies TAKE more damage from incoming fire-- especially the head) and their super slow sidestep speed (they take even MORE damage.)

The huge issue with slayer scouts is that they can sidestep so fast they can actually lag through a hit and take no damage. Heavies are on the other side of that. Near impossible to miss and can actually take damage from shots that missed them.

It's actually pretty easy to focus down a heavy solo provided you aren't trying to go toe to toe. I really don't see the need for a change to the suit. At best I would say change how uplinks work.

doesn't solve the problem.

Even if uplinks are removed or unavailable (odd it does happen) then smart heavies move to the tightest quarters they can and entrench and force you to come to you. This behavior will not change even if uplinks do, and they have the ability to smash their way in and dig in like ticks because the ideal terrain for them (CQC) is right where most enemies want to hold.\

Heavies never should have been CQC kings. that honor should have gone to the gallente assault.

Then I'm sorry we are just going tohave to disagree. I think heavies should be Cqc suits. They are too slow and too easy to hit to do anything except entrench. That's kind of their job.

But really this is all just a way of thinking. Your last comment made it clear -- when you said entrenched CQC should be Gallente Assault. Gallente are the armor rep class. Amarr stack plates which you need for CqC. So it would be them -- not Gallente.

Ah. I see -- you yourself ARE a Gallente. You know -- it appears that you are trying to change the fit the playstyle you want right?

EDIT: On second thought -- you did mention that a lot of parts that ppl want to hold (for example objectives) are CQC. It wouldn't be hard to make half the points in any Obj based match have half low cover points and half high cover points. Then all the suits would have a spot.

gallente are brawlers with high damage cqc weapons.

amarr are damage soakers. amarr are better in cqc defense and gallente are better in cqc attack.

and I'm not a gall rp loyalist. I tend to lean to caldari sentinels by preference

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4602	Posted - 2014.11.06 22:43:00 - [91] - Quote The heavy spam has reinforced everything I have said. CQC negates all disadvantages sentinels have. They are the meta and the FOTM. And the only way they can be balanced in cqc is by removing them from it. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 432	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:02:00 - [92] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The heavy spam has reinforced everything I have said. CQC negates all disadvantages sentinels have. They are the meta and the FOTM. And the only way they can be balanced in cqc is by removing them from it. No. Bitches need to Harden the **** Up and Adapt. Groups of Heavies are easier to kill the closer together they all are. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4604	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:24:00 - [93] - Quote Because scouts tossing RE at people is so much better. Bluntly you're not going to convince me that I'm wrong. I'm not going to defend broken and failing mechanics. Sentinel meta is a mixed bag of broken and failing mechanics. The assault is and should be the mainline slayer suit, not that joke newbies who don't know better use. And the only things that really counter sentinels in CQC are OHK niche weapons. Enjoy the nerf. I'm going to giggle and not respec out of heavies. They will have their day again sooner or later. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 432	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:12:00 - [94] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: And the only things that really counter sentinels in CQC are OHK niche weapons. This all there needs to be. Those weapons are available to EVERY suit. Like I said before, Heavies are the most Equal Opportunity Victims in the game, ANY suit packing for the bear Heavies are can get the job done, not just "scouts". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 95	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:16:00 - [95] - Quote Except that throwing RE's into a group of heavies is 99% ********. This is not BattleDuty 15, this is DUST. If at all possible "stupid" should not be actively discouraged, so much as brutally punished. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 50	Posted - 2014.11.07 00:48:00 - [96] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: You seem awfully invested in keeping heavies where they are. Newest round of HMG nerfs already announced. I hope rattati breaks the class entirely. Because the HMG exists on the razor's edge of balance. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Perhaps if your persuasive abilities were applied to reinforcing the Heavy's role and positon on the field instead of attempting re-defining it some of what Rattati is doing wouldn't happen. Or, if people weren't spamming the HMG with such massive success, some of what Rattati is doing wouldn't happen, lol I'm thinking of respeccing (is that even a real word?) specifically to increase my heavy / Sentinel capabilities. After trying various suit/weapon combos I find the scout only useful for dropping uplinks (2 equipment slots). I'm pretty much useless in an assault variant. Logi sits forgotten on the shelf. Commando, Sentinel, and Basic Heavy are what I spend the overwhelming majority of my time in. The nerfs to HMG? Ok, we'll see how it goes. I think it's gonna be real similar to the scout nerfs - those that know how to use it 'properly' won't have much trouble with the changes. Those that are looking for 'easy mode' will quickly get frustrated and leave or get good.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 432	Posted - 2014.11.07 01:40:00 - [97] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Except that throwing RE's into a group of heavies is 99% ********. This is not BattleDuty 15, this is DUST. If at all possible "stupid" should not be actively discouraged, so much as brutally punished. Even without REs Heavy counters abound for anybody with an IQ higher than cheetos. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 320	Posted - 2014.11.07 02:23:00 - [98] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Imp Smash wrote: HMG really isn't the highest DPS weapon in the game due to dispersion. It's just pretty high up there. But the heavy HP thing is a result of their GIANT hitbox (heavies TAKE more damage from incoming fire-- especially the head) and their super slow sidestep speed (they take even MORE damage.) The huge issue with slayer scouts is that they can sidestep so fast they can actually lag through a hit and take no damage. Heavies are on the other side of that. Near impossible to miss and can actually take damage from shots that missed them. It's actually pretty easy to focus down a heavy solo provided you aren't trying to go toe to toe. I really don't see the need for a change to the suit. At best I would say change how uplinks work. doesn't solve the problem. Even if uplinks are removed or unavailable (odd it does happen) then smart heavies move to the tightest quarters they can and entrench and force you to come to you. This behavior will not change even if uplinks do, and they have the ability to smash their way in and dig in like ticks because the ideal terrain for them (CQC) is right where most enemies want to hold.\ Heavies never should have been CQC kings. that honor should have gone to the gallente assault. Then I'm sorry we are just going tohave to disagree. I think heavies should be Cqc suits. They are too slow and too easy to hit to do anything except entrench. That's kind of their job. But really this is all just a way of thinking. Your last comment made it clear -- when you said entrenched CQC should be Gallente Assault. Gallente are the armor rep class. Amarr stack plates which you need for CqC. So it would be them -- not Gallente. Ah. I see -- you yourself ARE a Gallente. You know -- it appears that you are trying to change the fit the playstyle you want right? EDIT: On second thought -- you did mention that a lot of parts that ppl want to hold (for example objectives) are CQC. It wouldn't be hard to make half the points in any Obj based match have half low cover points and half high cover points. Then all the suits would have a spot. gallente are brawlers with high damage cqc weapons. amarr are damage soakers. amarr are better in cqc defense and gallente are better in cqc attack. and I'm not a gall rp loyalist. I tend to lean to caldari sentinels by preference Well, I have to agree with your assessment of Amarr and Gallente based on that argument. That is totally fair. Although that is with the current meta after all. We only have the Caldari and Minmatar heavy weapons. Once we see what the Amarr and Gallente heavy weapons are (if we see what they are) then that may change. But yes, I completely did not factor in racial weapons in that as I was thinking purely in "Heavy with HMG" terms for the purposes of this conversation. You make a fair point about Gallente and blasters.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 634	Posted - 2014.11.07 03:18:00 - [99] - Quote I think I agree with Breakin. I'm imagining Sentinels operating similarly (but not exactly like) a large Blaster Turret. Normally, when you have a blaster turret close to the objective, it deters you from running in open terrain to the point. This is the definition of Point Defense - the turret defends the point from attack. However, once you flank the turret (Which has a slow turn radius), you can take it down. In this part of the analogy, this would be a player taking down the heavy. We don't have Blaster turrets that only work at 40m and then stop. They have a presence (But not a particularly strong force) at a much longer range than what HMGs do. DUST 514 BETA VET 16.2M Lifetime SP SH4T --> PFBHz --> PFB --> SH4T --> Fatal
Powerh8er The Rainbow Effect 516	Posted - 2014.11.07 10:53:00 - [100] - Quote HMG as squad support weapon now!

Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 50	Posted - 2014.11.07 19:03:00 - [101] - Quote I agree with inertia applied to the HMG under the condition that it is also applied to the dropsuits. It seems the only things that have inertia in this game are vehicles. If HMG has a turn speed nerf then suits should get a strafe nerf to balance.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4650	Posted - 2014.11.07 19:05:00 - [102] - Quote Inertia is a whole different bucket of wax. But it's on the list. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Spankdamonke ScReWeD uP InC 38	Posted - 2014.11.10 12:55:00 - [103] - Quote Bringing this back to the top, as hopefully a Dev will EVENTUALLY grace you with a response. I was admittedly uneasy first reading through your proposals, but have come to accept it to be the honest truth. I miss the days when being the HMG heavy in a squad was a respectable playstyle, unique with it's own strengths and weaknesses. I just don't want to be the turtle getting a shotgun to the head constantly again... But when 2/3 of all matches nowadays are dominated by Sentinels, a reiteration and distinction of their battlefield role becomes necessary. Kill the spam by any means deemed fitting to do so.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4800	Posted - 2014.11.10 17:25:00 - [104] - Quote Spankdamonke wrote: I just don't want to be the turtle getting a shotgun to the head constantly again... But when 2/3 of all matches nowadays are dominated by Sentinels, a reiteration and distinction of their battlefield role becomes necessary. Kill the spam by any means deemed fitting to do so. This statement sums up the long, the short, the alpha, the omega and whatever other poetic BS you want to attach to it in the most succinct and simple way possible. For the health of the game, regardless of how this is achieved, Sentinel spam needs to die. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14728	Posted - 2014.11.18 00:47:00 - [105] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Putting turn speed on the weapons and not the suit does nothing to solve the problem aside from allow ADS targets a higher success rate at escaping. You're not looking at the whole post. Its a combination of factors: 1: you cannot have a CQC combatant be effective if he cannot track a target. This was the original reason for turn speed normalization. 2: heavies are huge, easy to hit, slow as hell, heavily armed and armored with limited mobility. These are not traits of good CQC combatants where speed, maneuverability and rapid kill capacity are the norm. They are traits of open ground fire support platforms. 3: making heavies long range fire support platforms incapable of CQC defensive dominance opens critical portions of the map to assaults as the primary attack force potentially with burst HMG door kickers to breach a hole. 4: putting turn speed penalties on long range weapons allows sentinels to perform long range hardpoint defense and makes them vulnerable to assault and scouts that successfully maneuver in close. 5: keeping close range sentinel weapons on the burst HMG meta of high damage, short engagement duration with penalties like the near-suicidal seize creates another window of opportunity for assaults to overcome and kill careless heavies. 6: the turn speed penalty for long range anti-infantry weapons should be sufficient that it matches assault strafe speed at 15 meters, allowing fast movers to tear heavy dropsuits apart in CQC the way they SHOULD. 7: Finally, forcing sentinels to play to the design strengths of the dropsuit rather than the artificially created/enforced CQC role exposes them to counter-fire from weapons that can kill them such as charge snipers and laser rifles. Basically a Mobile Support tank/platform with legs? This I like. "HeGÇÖs sorry. ThatGÇÖs his sorry faceGÇª. Just keep quiet for now and maybe you'll get through this." -Kador Ouryon
Powerh8er The Rainbow Effect 537	Posted - 2014.11.18 04:54:00 - [106] - Quote The heavy bolter in the warhammer 40k: space marine game is an example of a well designed machine gun. Where the machine gunner moves around in normal mode, but can only hipfire with low ROF and high dispersion, like a slow firing HMG with high damage. In the brace mode the operater roots to ground like the breach forge gun and fires with much higher ROF and alot tighter dispersion, basically becoming a heavy weapons plattform. it requires skill to be a succesfull devastor with heavy bolter in pvp. My point: It shouldnt be difficult to balance a machine gun,perhaps the old super accurate HMG version only needed more range and slightly more damage. The way it is now its resembling more of a giant fully automatic shotgun than an actual HMG/minigun.
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 343	Posted - 2014.11.27 10:43:00 - [107] - Quote So even more range (35-40m isn't already enough??), same 800 OP DPS at basic lvl, and a poor rotation technique to make them less viable in CQC. If you do this, rifles would have absolutely no point. Everybody prefers fitting a high eHP suit with incredible damages AND range than a medium or light suit. Ho wait, it's already like that. Do you want to make it worse? I don't like these changes. Assault suits were made for close to mid range battles, heavies can't have the same purpose or everybody will run them (even more than today). We talked about it before, my point of view is to REDUCE their range a lot to make them CQC only. Not take them out of CQC with a poor design technique and give them the assault role.. Take out all forms of scans and you'll see how great Dust can be. Scrubs will cry, good players will love it.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5379	Posted - 2014.11.27 10:48:00 - [108] - Quote Sequal Rise wrote: So even more range (35-40m isn't already enough??), same 800 OP DPS at basic lvl, and a poor rotation technique to make them less viable in CQC. If you do this, rifles would have absolutely no point. Everybody prefers fitting a high eHP suit with incredible damages AND range than a medium or light suit. Ho wait, it's already like that. Do you want to make it worse? I don't like these changes. Assault suits were made for close to mid range battles, heavies can't have the same purpose or everybody will run them (even more than today). We talked about it before, my point of view is to REDUCE their range a lot to make them CQC only. Not take them out of CQC with a poor design technique and give them the assault role.. I think you haven't thought your argument through. It is predicatrd on the idea that sents are supposed to be CQC. As it stands sentinels absolutely dominate on close in point fights when they should be encouraging you to stay away from the points entirely. A CQC vulnerability is there specifically to allow assaults and other fast suits a viable means of carving sentinels up insteadof having to expend three assaults to evict one fatty. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5379	Posted - 2014.11.27 10:56:00 - [109] - Quote Actualy let me clarify something. This change will make the sentinel something you run behind a squad to force enemies to hunker down or die. The change would reverse the sentinel to be most effextive supporting assaults rather than not needing them. It's kinda like vehicles. Without infantry support they're meat for AV. I want sentinls to have their "meat to infantry" condition that isn't mitigated by simply putting your back to a wall or running into a building. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 343	Posted - 2014.11.27 11:17:00 - [110] - Quote Hmm I didnt see it like that indeed. The HMG will have to be completely rebalanced and see its damage lowered a lot if you do so, knowing CCP they would easily make this absolutely OP. Your idea seems good on paper but I don't how it would be IG. Take out all forms of scans and you'll see how great Dust can be. Scrubs will cry, good players will love it.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5382	Posted - 2014.11.27 12:48:00 - [111] - Quote Sequal Rise wrote: Hmm I didnt see it like that indeed. The HMG will have to be completely rebalanced and see its damage lowered a lot if you do so, knowing CCP they would easily make this absolutely OP. Your idea seems good on paper but I don't how it would be IG. Dropping the DPS wouldn't be as necessary with a turn speed. If at 20m a sentinel starts having a hsrd time tracking and somewhere between 10-15 it's kill time you have an effective "minimum effective range" Utilizing a turn speed penalty on long range anti infantry weapons creates a differentiation between long range AI and short range. The burst, for example, is hella good at killing but it's really easy to screw up with. It's actually well balanced for CQC. The higher sustain HMGs are what you want clunky in CQC. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 738	Posted - 2014.11.27 16:31:00 - [112] - Quote bump Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
DarthPlagueis TheWise 434	Posted - 2014.11.27 18:01:00 - [113] - Quote Oh, you're saying to keep the regular turn speed on the Burst HMG? I'd compromise for that. I just really don't want to see heavies completely not even have a CQC option. I didn't skill into the ScP for CQC. You should really make it a bit clearer in your OP that you want to keep the Burst the same. It's an important point and keeps heavies like me from going into bloodshot eyes rage mode at you. I actually agree that Assault needs a window of opportunity to approach heavies. What I'm afraid of is the goddamn scouts running in circles around me, but I can handle that if we keep the Burst the same as it is now. F*k this cash grab fix the shit that matters: unkillable uplinks, invisible remotes on null cannon hack panels, etc.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5403	Posted - 2014.11.27 19:38:00 - [114] - Quote DarthPlagueis TheWise wrote: Oh, you're saying to keep the regular turn speed on the Burst HMG? I'd compromise for that. I just really don't want to see heavies completely not even have a CQC option. I didn't skill into the ScP for CQC. You should really make it a bit clearer in your OP that you want to keep the Burst the same. It's an important point and keeps heavies like me from going into bloodshot eyes rage mode at you. I actually agree that Assault needs a window of opportunity to approach heavies. What I'm afraid of is the goddamn scouts running in circles around me, but I can handle that if we keep the Burst the same as it is now. Perhaps even add a Breach HMG or something, CCP. With horrible RoF and dispersion so it's only good at CQC. that was an important part of the proposal, to keep CQC heavy weapons like the burst with clear drawbacks and apply the turn speed thing to long range weapons that don't have the forge's Unholy charge times. Very specifically put in there. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2149	Posted - 2014.11.27 21:55:00 - [115] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Im amazed no one seems to care about this topic given that assault and logi utility in PC is being held hostage by the need to keep sentinels as the kings of CQC, a role that makes no sense for the suit design. Defending points. Which are almost all in the outpost. Which is almost entirely CQC territory. See the line of reasoning that Heavies should be defenders... I Live for Tears
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 166	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:28:00 - [116] - Quote I'd argue that has more to do with the current map design paradigms than anything else. As an aside, one of the new Caldari sockets has a very exposed console that in theory allows players to actually snipe a would-be hacker off of the point. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be seeded heavily enough for that to be a thing. There's also the remaining issue that a heavy's disadvantages are 99% nullified in the confined CQC conditions it presently dominates in. Furthermore, it is still preventing assaults from being anything close to "useful" in actually assaulting stuff (like objectives), and is chaining logis to the eternal hell of the "walking rep tool" stereotype. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5408	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:51:00 - [117] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: chaining logis to the eternal hell of the "walking rep tool" stereotype. I want to kill this with fire. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 166	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:53:00 - [118] - Quote I do as well. That perception is actually half of the reason I do not have any SP invested into rep tools, but have proto nanos, links, scanners, and proto AmLogi. The other half of that is that I also find repping to be insufferably boring. As an aside, I wish DUST had more offensively-minded support options for equipment slots, since that would help flesh out the "Combat Engineer" side of the Logi paradigm. We have amazing "Combat Medic" options. We have hardly any "Combat Engineer" options. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Grimmiers 721	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:14:00 - [119] - Quote Have the spawn time for heavies increased by 50% and have the assault spawn time reduced by 25~30. Instead of slowing down turn speed for the hmg, just slow down their movement speed while shooting. Another change that might work is making resistances go up while crouching and giving heavies a 20% hp nerf. With the hp nerf you could make hmg's do less damage since they high damage feels like it's only needed for another heavy while melting every other suit.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5438	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:16:00 - [120] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: Have the spawn time for heavies increased by 50% and have the assault spawn time reduced by 25~30. Instead of slowing down turn speed for the hmg, just slow down their movement speed while shooting. Another change that might work is making resistances go up while crouching and giving heavies a 20% hp nerf. With the hp nerf you could make hmg's do less damage since they high damage feels like it's only needed for another heavy while melting every other suit. Crouching with an HMG is stupid. God no. Don't encourage that idiocy. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.



Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

I Live for Tears