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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4531
   |
Posted - 2014.11.06 00:36:00 -
[61] - Quote
Kensai Dragon wrote:
Maybe I missed your point, can you give a better idea or example of how you envision point defence from afar?
Manus peak is the perfect example.
There are open ground objectives with long open areas between objectives. the idea is that a Sentinel could cover those approach fields and DENY YOU APPROACH and keep your squad discouraged from engaging.
But once you get in close it's pretty much all over.
That is the purpose of a suppression weapon, to deny an enemy approach to your battle line. If they approach kill them.
But I want to leave the burst as-is because a Burst HMG works better as a CQC concept. It's kinda dumb as a long-range asset because of how it works. But it also has two massive drawbacks:
1: it eats ammo like a ten year old at halloween.
2: it overheats stupid fast.
these two things combine with it's ungodly damage output to make it an excellent door kicker weapon, but suboptimal for sustained engagement and long-term point-defense.
Long range weapons are always better point-defense weapons because you can use them to deny an enemy approach to your point rather than trying to clean up while they swarm you
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4531
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Posted - 2014.11.06 00:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:I don't know about Breakin, but personally I consider "point defense from afar" to be within 50 meters of a point and then keeping other players away from the point.
I will use Manus Peak Skirmish as an example; When defending C, the heavy will most likely be within 20-30 meters of the console; I will assume that the socket in this example is the mini-bridge/wall thing that basically keeps the console/null cannon and CRU on the side closest to the ridge, while the side facing the A/B points has the supply depot and turret.
With this proposal, I would envision the heavy on top of the bridge, firing at long range to prevent enemies from getting close to the point. The heavy is still "on the point", defending; however, rather than staying behind the wall and gunning down randumbs that try to hack the point, he's actually on the wall preventing said randumbs from getting that close in the first place.
Annnd Moody makes my point right as I do.
This right here is essentially correct. Difference is, need more than 50m. Laser rifle is a good example of a suppression weapon. a 50m machinegun with a turn speed penalty would only have an effective engagement window of about 25-30m. The range would need to be longer to compensate for close quarter engagement vulnerability.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Ace Boone
333
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Posted - 2014.11.06 00:39:00 -
[63] - Quote
My issue with heavies is their enormous amounts of HP.
You have THE HIGHEST DPS weapon in the entire game, I don't see the need for 1340 armor with 500 shields. If heavies had less HP, but kept their damage resistance, it would force them to actually play smart, and use cover. As of now, a heavy can just charge in with a logi and demolish everything except other heavies.
Only loyal to the republic.
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
310
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Posted - 2014.11.06 00:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
HMG really isn't the highest DPS weapon in the game due to dispersion. It's just pretty high up there.
But the heavy HP thing is a result of their GIANT hitbox (heavies TAKE more damage from incoming fire-- especially the head) and their super slow sidestep speed (they take even MORE damage.)
The huge issue with slayer scouts is that they can sidestep so fast they can actually lag through a hit and take no damage. Heavies are on the other side of that. Near impossible to miss and can actually take damage from shots that missed them.
It's actually pretty easy to focus down a heavy solo provided you aren't trying to go toe to toe. I really don't see the need for a change to the suit. At best I would say change how uplinks work. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4531
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Posted - 2014.11.06 00:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:My issue with heavies is their enormous amounts of HP.
You have THE HIGHEST DPS weapon in the entire game, I don't see the need for 1340 armor with 500 shields. If heavies had less HP, but kept their damage resistance, it would force them to actually play smart, and use cover. As of now, a heavy can just charge in with a logi and demolish everything except other heavies.
Because the traditional Tank/DPS/Healer trinity only works in DND or against opponents scripted to automatically attack the tank. Human opponents are smarter, and thus will not be sucked into the "tanks always have Low DPS" meta BS.
Playing heavy means you draw fire. all of it.
It also means you're more vulnerable to gangups and your own screwups than any other class because you are slow, and running away is something that works about once a year.
I used up my once a year earlier today while getting shot by a BAR.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4531
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Posted - 2014.11.06 00:57:00 -
[66] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:HMG really isn't the highest DPS weapon in the game due to dispersion. It's just pretty high up there.
But the heavy HP thing is a result of their GIANT hitbox (heavies TAKE more damage from incoming fire-- especially the head) and their super slow sidestep speed (they take even MORE damage.)
The huge issue with slayer scouts is that they can sidestep so fast they can actually lag through a hit and take no damage. Heavies are on the other side of that. Near impossible to miss and can actually take damage from shots that missed them.
It's actually pretty easy to focus down a heavy solo provided you aren't trying to go toe to toe. I really don't see the need for a change to the suit. At best I would say change how uplinks work.
doesn't solve the problem.
Even if uplinks are removed or unavailable (odd it does happen) then smart heavies move to the tightest quarters they can and entrench and force you to come to you. This behavior will not change even if uplinks do, and they have the ability to smash their way in and dig in like ticks because the ideal terrain for them (CQC) is right where most enemies want to hold.\
Heavies never should have been CQC kings. that honor should have gone to the gallente assault.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
313
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Posted - 2014.11.06 03:33:00 -
[67] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Imp Smash wrote:HMG really isn't the highest DPS weapon in the game due to dispersion. It's just pretty high up there.
But the heavy HP thing is a result of their GIANT hitbox (heavies TAKE more damage from incoming fire-- especially the head) and their super slow sidestep speed (they take even MORE damage.)
The huge issue with slayer scouts is that they can sidestep so fast they can actually lag through a hit and take no damage. Heavies are on the other side of that. Near impossible to miss and can actually take damage from shots that missed them.
It's actually pretty easy to focus down a heavy solo provided you aren't trying to go toe to toe. I really don't see the need for a change to the suit. At best I would say change how uplinks work. doesn't solve the problem. Even if uplinks are removed or unavailable (odd it does happen) then smart heavies move to the tightest quarters they can and entrench and force you to come to you. This behavior will not change even if uplinks do, and they have the ability to smash their way in and dig in like ticks because the ideal terrain for them (CQC) is right where most enemies want to hold.\ Heavies never should have been CQC kings. that honor should have gone to the gallente assault.
Then I'm sorry we are just going tohave to disagree. I think heavies should be Cqc suits. They are too slow and too easy to hit to do anything except entrench. That's kind of their job.
But really this is all just a way of thinking. Your last comment made it clear -- when you said entrenched CQC should be Gallente Assault. Gallente are the armor rep class. Amarr stack plates which you need for CqC. So it would be them -- not Gallente.
Ah. I see -- you yourself ARE a Gallente. You know -- it appears that you are trying to change the fit the playstyle you want right?
EDIT: On second thought -- you did mention that a lot of parts that ppl want to hold (for example objectives) are CQC. It wouldn't be hard to make half the points in any Obj based match have half low cover points and half high cover points. Then all the suits would have a spot. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4536
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 03:37:00 -
[68] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Imp Smash wrote:HMG really isn't the highest DPS weapon in the game due to dispersion. It's just pretty high up there.
But the heavy HP thing is a result of their GIANT hitbox (heavies TAKE more damage from incoming fire-- especially the head) and their super slow sidestep speed (they take even MORE damage.)
The huge issue with slayer scouts is that they can sidestep so fast they can actually lag through a hit and take no damage. Heavies are on the other side of that. Near impossible to miss and can actually take damage from shots that missed them.
It's actually pretty easy to focus down a heavy solo provided you aren't trying to go toe to toe. I really don't see the need for a change to the suit. At best I would say change how uplinks work. doesn't solve the problem. Even if uplinks are removed or unavailable (odd it does happen) then smart heavies move to the tightest quarters they can and entrench and force you to come to you. This behavior will not change even if uplinks do, and they have the ability to smash their way in and dig in like ticks because the ideal terrain for them (CQC) is right where most enemies want to hold.\ Heavies never should have been CQC kings. that honor should have gone to the gallente assault. Then I'm sorry we are just going tohave to disagree. I think heavies should be Cqc suits. They are too slow and too easy to hit to do anything except entrench. That's kind of their job. But really this is all just a way of thinking. Your last comment made it clear -- when you said entrenched CQC should be Gallente Assault. Gallente are the armor rep class. Amarr stack plates which you need for CqC. So it would be them -- not Gallente. Ah. I see -- you yourself ARE a Gallente. You know -- it appears that you are trying to change the fit the playstyle you want right? EDIT: On second thought -- you did mention that a lot of parts that ppl want to hold (for example objectives) are CQC. It wouldn't be hard to make half the points in any Obj based match have half low cover points and half high cover points. Then all the suits would have a spot.
gallente are brawlers with high damage cqc weapons.
amarr are damage soakers. amarr are better in cqc defense and gallente are better in cqc attack.
and I'm not a gall rp loyalist. I tend to lean to caldari sentinels by preference
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
95
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Posted - 2014.11.06 04:48:00 -
[69] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Annnd Moody makes my point right as I do.
This right here is essentially correct. Difference is, need more than 50m. Laser rifle is a good example of a suppression weapon. a 50m machinegun with a turn speed penalty would only have an effective engagement window of about 25-30m. The range would need to be longer to compensate for close quarter engagement vulnerability.
I just want to clarify that I mean "heavy is within 50 meters of objective", not "HMG range is 50 meters". I merely noted that as a measure of how close to an objective a heavy would probably be when conducting long range suppression fire. So I absolutely do agree that a 50 meter range would be much too low.
My bad for not making that clear.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
428
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Posted - 2014.11.06 06:38:00 -
[70] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:As far as heavies being OP, they are still second to scouts soooooooo one problem at a time? Heavies aren't OP, quit looking at a thread and assuming it's a complaint. Just because you consider your personal crusade against scouts > all doesn't mean you need to come in here, read part of the proposal by skimming and then threadcrapping. This is a role change not a call for a nerf. If you have to make scouts the center of attention go make more scout threads, God knows there are dozens, all equally ignored. But heavies in CQC negate the value of assaults in CQC. Bottom line. Are heavies supporting assaults? Or are Assaults supporting heavies? It looks to me like assaults are supporting heavies in the current meta, and that's bass-ackwards.
Your previous comment about spam and ppl crying about OP is why I mentioned OP and scouts. I didn't read part of the proposal and decide to **** on your table.
I have yet to start ANY anti-scout threads. The only thread I think I have ever created was the day of the Rouge Wedding where, amidst countless QQ and RAaAaaGE threads, I said I would stay playing DUST. Because I like it.
To your actual point:
The heavy/assault relationship is very clear- Assaults take, Heavies hold. Thats a two-way street so it works both ways sometimes, Heavies take and Assaults hold, but for the most part it's the first way. This isn't backwards or inappropriate, it's logical and it works. The two units (ideally) support each other using their strengths to compensate for the others' weakness blahblahblah you know the drill.
HMG range buffing will take us backwards in time, to a DUST of not that long ago (a year and a half to two) where the forums were devoid of OP scout threads and flush with, "NERF HMGs" threads. People hated crossing those open areas to be pelted from afar by HMG rounds that didn't kill but would damage enough to make the runners easy pickings for whoever they ran into next. People hated turning a corner, finding a heavy, racing backwards to create distance and squeeze out a few rounds just to be utterly evicerated by the first sneeze out of that HMG.
You are point defense. You don't have to do that all the time, but its what the frame is based on being for. That HMG is based on the idea of DPS, close to mid-range. Longer range already proved itself problematic overwhelmingly.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
428
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Posted - 2014.11.06 06:44:00 -
[71] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
But heavies in CQC negate the value of assaults in CQC. Bottom line.
No, from what I've seen, they don't. Heavies are supported by assault players all the time. You might not realize though, since most of those assaults are in scout suits. Yes, thats where I took that. I'll leave my opinion about that out, but that the circumstance exists is undeniable by anyone who's actually played for more than an hour in the last 4 months.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4542
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Posted - 2014.11.06 07:05:00 -
[72] - Quote
Once rattati hits scouts with the nerf bat then we are going to come right back here. You may disagree with me but heavies were put in cqc so it wouldnGÇÿt take as much effort to kill them.
Look how well that turned out.
And the killing field everyone complained about was because you cannot exploit the strafe glitch at range because dispersion doesn't care whether you are synced or not.
Beta players cried way too much
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
428
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Posted - 2014.11.06 07:12:00 -
[73] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:
The heavy suit as a weapons platform has traditionally been defined by, *gasp* the ability to carry heavy weapons. Saying "just throw a RR on that sucka and ignore the hatemail if you want range" is asinine.
* SNIP *
In other words, for a heavy to, in current patch state, be useful over range, they have to either sacrifice heavily on their fit to accommodate something like a RR, or they have to change role entirely. Is this seriously acceptable to you, or are you too busy hating scouts?
1. I don't hate scouts. Maybe someday I'll start a thread and explain myself but that day and thread ain't right now.
2. YES. YES. YES. If you missed it, YES it IS ACCEPTABLE TO ME for heavies, OR ANY OTHER ROLE to SACRIFICE in order to PERFORM outside their initial ROLE-DESIGN.
-If you are a heavy but want to move fast YES you must sacrifice your innate invulnerability to AV weapons to drive that LAV around!
-If you are a heavy and want to shoot people from 75m YES you must sacrifice your fitting space to cram on that CR/RR/AR/SNIPER/Whatever you choose!!
....and just so you don't mistake me as "hating heavies" or some bs....
-If you are a Logi but want to slay like an Assault, YES you must sacrifice some fitting bonuses to stack that relatively inferior HP/DM/BIO combo you'll need!!
-If you are a scout but want to tank armor like a heavy YESYESYES you must sacrifice your speed to tank that extra 800 hp!!!!!!
Need I go on?
The entire game is built on risk/reward, benefits and sacrifices. EVERYONE is sacrificing something to perform outside of what their role usually doesn't include. If I want to cloak, I either design my entire Logi around accommodating that cloak, at the loss of my hp, my biotics, my ewar and my hacks OR I go put on my scout suit, cloak up and then fit the rest of it out however I want.
Your patronizing tone regarding me, my opinion and scouts betrays your absolute lack of understanding of this game's fundamentals as well as the basis of my perspective. Hopefully I've enlightened you a little bit. If not, all I can say is gbfw.
Oh, and the Forge Gun some of my corpmates wield does some amazing things from range.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
428
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Posted - 2014.11.06 07:26:00 -
[74] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Once rattati hits scouts with the nerf bat then we are going to come right back here. You may disagree with me but heavies were put in cqc so it wouldnGÇÿt take as much effort to kill them.
Look how well that turned out.
And the killing field everyone complained about was because you cannot exploit the strafe glitch at range because dispersion doesn't care whether you are synced or not.
Beta players cried way too much
scouts ***** about heavies being OP all day, almost as much as everybody without a scout-superiority-centered focus bitches about scouts. Working as intended.
And the killing fields were a mess. They still are, its just more palatable to people to have those kills be RR, CR and AR than be HMG on the feed.
Beta players....idk. This game was craaazy when I started, ridiculouly dumb **** abounded. But the foundation for serious fun was obvious and well-laid.
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Drunk Night Tree Burner.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4542
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Posted - 2014.11.06 07:29:00 -
[75] - Quote
Your statement that heavies are supported by assaults all the time, even though it turns into a stab at scouts underlines the problem.
Heavies should be the support for the assaults.
The fact that assaults are now seen as the support for the heavies is a problem.
Understanding how the game works and the core principles is not the problem. Accepting that some of those things are inherently broken and need fixing is the solution.
The only reasons to defend the current heavy meta are:
1: Scouts are far more obnoxious, so they distract people from heavies.
2: It is an easily exploited meta that allows one to entrench in a way that means the only counter is another heavy.
Once scoutsscouts are brought to heel every eye will turn to sentinel meta and the outcry will begin again. It has been proven time and time again that the only thing which can eject heavies in play is to hit their lines with other heavies. The only reasonable counter to a thing cannot be itself.
Right now scouts have the stage. Next month fatties are on the chopping block because instead of " play a scout they're better" it will be "roll heavy, nothing else works in cqc maps."
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
428
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Posted - 2014.11.06 07:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ok, freeze frame-
Heavies and Assaults support one another (ideally) equally but who and how that support materializes really is based on what they're doing.
If they are pushing a point the Assaults have the lead and are backed up by the slower but more damage-dealing heavies who arrive to the battle after the Assaults have started
-but-
If they are defending a point the Heavies have the lead and are backed up by the Assaults, who by virtue of mobility are falling in and out of flanks as well as chasing those attackers who try to run.
Heavies have a ton of weaknesses and a ton of counters that exploit those weaknesses. Heavies are great at wiping out other heavies but are not required, not even close. scouts, even after a serious nerfbludgeon, will still hold some keys to heavy defeat but not all of them. If anything, Heavies are the most Equal Opportunity Victim on the field, ANYONE can kill a heavy.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4543
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Posted - 2014.11.06 08:34:00 -
[77] - Quote
But no one can oust six heavies from an objective without more heavies.
This is why spam is a problem. Your statement is the ideal, but it doesn't represent the reality.
Scouts are achieving critical mass as far as being problematic goes. But it is equally problematic that pubs are beginning to follow PC meta.
As much as I love picking on the PC tryhards they are the majority meta in three months. Right now the meta is heavy brick team supported by scouts with maybe an assault or a couple logis.
The pubmatch meta is following suit with most teams beginning to spam sentinels or scouts. I am seeing less and less assaults and logis because the sentinels and scouts are dominating the field.
People are not joking when they talk about 6-10 sentinels or scouts per team. This is becoming the at-large meta because both classes weaknesses are easily subverted.
Scouts are just the most obvious because they can kill EVERYONE with impunity except other scouts.
Heavies have to be mobbed or scoutssassinated if there isn't another heavy in play. I believe scouts should be the go-to counter to heavies but when they get nerfed heavy survivability jumps UP sharply.
Nothing in this game lives in a vacuum.
But follow the PC meta. When there is a variety of suits vehicles and tactics beyond one class dominance then balance will trickle into pubs. But the scout meta was the PC meta three months ago and pubs are catching up.
If scouts are nerfed and something isn't done to eject heavies from CQC we will see sentinels where we see scouts now three months after the nerf hits.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
430
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Posted - 2014.11.06 18:22:00 -
[78] - Quote
So, I guess the real disagreement here is what will become of heavies once scouts are rebalanced relative to the game at large, with your idea being that heavies need to be rebalanced out of cq dominance and further into a mid-long range competition? Because if not, then heavies will be up for nerfswat and no-one wants to be or see anyone nerfed?
Okay.
The current PC meta isn't far from the old PC meta: take the points, keep the points, kill everyone, get paid.
That the methods used in PC are beginning to surface in Pubs, IMO, is a good thing, insofar as the teamwork elements go. Yes, this can mean spam of w/e, scouts, heavies, uplinks, logi-heavy spidering etc. Again, I don't really see a problem with that, provided that all the game elements are balanced individually and overall, so that those elements can be combined to create super potent task-specific solutions, that are still highly vulnerable somehow. If the goal is to run around and rip hacks, then super-fast hacker squads get to work, capable of hacking consoles in 2-3 seconds but super low HP (a sacrifice) so susceptible to instadeath from any form of focused fire. If they can get to the console they WILL flip it, but once they get it they aren't fitted to actually HOLD it and need other units to present themselves. I don't see an issue here. I see exactly what sets DUST apart from EVERY other shooter, fp or otherwise, on the market. Teamwork, here, is king .
Heavies' place in this is a good one, and really I feel that with a rebalancing of scouts yes heavy survivability will jump up. BUT I don't think heavies will be alone in this, ALL frames will have better survivability (even scouts) because that's how out of whack scout frames are. Nothing in this game lives in a vacuum.
And should sentinels become the new FOTMscrub favorite as they stand now, I'm actually okay with that since sentinels as they stand now while being cqkings are far from the grossly imbalanced scout frames as far as strengths/weakness ratios go and are actually very easy to kill. Which is all the more reason, I feel, that giving sentinels a range buff to their weapons isn't really a good idea. If anything, not to beat a dead horse, once scouts are balanced and logis are restructured and balanced, frame-wise the meta will be complete and relatively ideal.
Open-Beta Vet.
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This is my Main and Original.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
430
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Posted - 2014.11.06 18:23:00 -
[79] - Quote
So sorry so much of this just comes out as block text, hope you've got your reading glasses on!
Open-Beta Vet.
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This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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Argetlam Thorson
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
102
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Posted - 2014.11.06 19:00:00 -
[80] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Im amazed no one seems to care about this topic given that assault and logi utility in PC is being held hostage by the need to keep sentinels as the kings of CQC, a role that makes no sense for the suit design.
Sentinel - a soldier stationed as a guard to challenge all comers and prevent a surprise attack
The whole definition of a sentinel is someone who is guarding a point. Ergo, one would assume it should be the king of CQC as the points are generally in close quarters. The penalty for being the king of CQC (which also pushes the suit into fitting the word's definition) should be being extremely slow. Then you have Sentinel suits playing the role of a sentinel.
Basic heavy suits could understandably be faster (relatively, anyway), possibly weaker, not as good at CQC, etc. They should be the suits people should want to use when they're not guarding a point but still want to wield a heavy weapon or have more HP than Medium/Light suits.
Youtube channel
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Argetlam Thorson
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
102
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Posted - 2014.11.06 19:03:00 -
[81] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:this wouldn't be an issue if we weren't given just two weapon and told to make it work. The lack of a heavy plasma and laser weapon destroys any balance and role designation we try to make. HMGs should have a range longer than my wang. But the hue and cry was for them to be CQC even though CCP was making strides in making them hella effective at decent ranges. then the nerfs began. specifically nerfs to make them CQC weapons. It made no sense whatsoever. Gallente heavy weapon as CQC? Ok I can see it. MINMATAR???? Last I checked Minmatar weren't knife-fighters.
*cough* Min scout *cough*
Youtube channel
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
431
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Posted - 2014.11.06 19:50:00 -
[82] - Quote
wtf? Thorson! o7
Dude, login and play some matches tonight, we've got PCs and I'm sure Shep will be happy to see you in!
Open-Beta Vet.
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This is my Main and Original.
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
634
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Posted - 2014.11.06 20:00:00 -
[83] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:mmmm....what if heavies took longer to spawn?
What did the commandoooooooo do to deserve this?
a simple 'max turn speed' on the heavy machine gun would solve this, as you could still spray down that tunnel, but you'd need someone watching your back, instead of instantly turning around...
On the other hand just making the weapon unwieldy from hip fire + having to wait for heat to drop below a certain point before re-firing (On all but the burst, which should just require aim to spin it up before being able to fire.)
If you nerf all heavy turn speed, then forge gunners will be worthless in favour of the swarmers... you'll never lose an LAV to a forge gun again. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4590
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Posted - 2014.11.06 20:36:00 -
[84] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Zatara Rought wrote:mmmm....what if heavies took longer to spawn?
What did the commandoooooooo do to deserve this? a simple 'max turn speed' on the heavy machine gun would solve this, as you could still spray down that tunnel, but you'd need someone watching your back, instead of instantly turning around... On the other hand just making the weapon unwieldy from hip fire + having to wait for heat to drop below a certain point before re-firing (On all but the burst, which should just require aim to spin it up before being able to fire.) If you nerf all heavy turn speed, then forge gunners will be worthless in favour of the swarmers... you'll never lose an LAV to a forge gun again.
because the turn penalty would be placed on the GUN. Not on the DROPSUIT.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4590
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Posted - 2014.11.06 20:37:00 -
[85] - Quote
Argetlam Thorson wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Im amazed no one seems to care about this topic given that assault and logi utility in PC is being held hostage by the need to keep sentinels as the kings of CQC, a role that makes no sense for the suit design. Sentinel - a soldier stationed as a guard to challenge all comers and prevent a surprise attack The whole definition of a sentinel is someone who is guarding a point. Ergo, one would assume it should be the king of CQC as the points are generally in close quarters. The penalty for being the king of CQC (which also pushes the suit into fitting the word's definition) should be being extremely slow. Then you have Sentinel suits playing the role of a sentinel. Basic heavy suits could understandably be faster (relatively, anyway), possibly weaker, not as good at CQC, etc. They should be the suits people should want to use when they're not guarding a point but still want to wield a heavy weapon or have more HP than Medium/Light suits.
Point defense is "I pick a spot then MURDER everyone who tries to come close."
It does NOT mean CQC.
Point defense and Close Quarter Defense are NOT the same thing.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
432
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Posted - 2014.11.06 21:20:00 -
[86] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Argetlam Thorson wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Im amazed no one seems to care about this topic given that assault and logi utility in PC is being held hostage by the need to keep sentinels as the kings of CQC, a role that makes no sense for the suit design. Sentinel - a soldier stationed as a guard to challenge all comers and prevent a surprise attack The whole definition of a sentinel is someone who is guarding a point. Ergo, one would assume it should be the king of CQC as the points are generally in close quarters. The penalty for being the king of CQC (which also pushes the suit into fitting the word's definition) should be being extremely slow. Then you have Sentinel suits playing the role of a sentinel. Basic heavy suits could understandably be faster (relatively, anyway), possibly weaker, not as good at CQC, etc. They should be the suits people should want to use when they're not guarding a point but still want to wield a heavy weapon or have more HP than Medium/Light suits. Point defense is "I pick a spot then MURDER everyone who tries to come close." It does NOT mean CQC. Point defense and Close Quarter Defense are NOT the same thing.
lol, dude, cmon now. "I pick a spot then MURDER everyone who tries to come CLOSE".
" CLOSE" as in nearby, adjoining, abutting. Not "CLOSE" as in 50-70m downrange.
CQC= Close Quarters Combat. "CLOSE" Quarters. Not "Over There" Quarters. "CLOSE" Quarters. Have some Doritos and Kickstart, they're actually good together.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4595
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 21:34:00 -
[87] - Quote
You seem awfully invested in keeping heavies where they are.
Newest round of HMG nerfs already announced.
I hope rattati breaks the class entirely. Because the HMG exists on the razor's edge of balance.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4599
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 21:56:00 -
[88] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Argetlam Thorson wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Im amazed no one seems to care about this topic given that assault and logi utility in PC is being held hostage by the need to keep sentinels as the kings of CQC, a role that makes no sense for the suit design. Sentinel - a soldier stationed as a guard to challenge all comers and prevent a surprise attack The whole definition of a sentinel is someone who is guarding a point. Ergo, one would assume it should be the king of CQC as the points are generally in close quarters. The penalty for being the king of CQC (which also pushes the suit into fitting the word's definition) should be being extremely slow. Then you have Sentinel suits playing the role of a sentinel. Basic heavy suits could understandably be faster (relatively, anyway), possibly weaker, not as good at CQC, etc. They should be the suits people should want to use when they're not guarding a point but still want to wield a heavy weapon or have more HP than Medium/Light suits. Point defense is "I pick a spot then MURDER everyone who tries to come close." It does NOT mean CQC. Point defense and Close Quarter Defense are NOT the same thing. lol, dude, cmon now. "I pick a spot then MURDER everyone who tries to come CLOSE". " CLOSE" as in nearby, adjoining, abutting. Not "CLOSE" as in 50-70m downrange. CQC= Close Quarters Combat. "CLOSE" Quarters. Not "Over There" Quarters. "CLOSE" Quarters. Have some Doritos and Kickstart, they're actually good together.
And don't try to correct me on Military terminology unless you have also served in the military. I guarantee you that your definition does not match reality.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
432
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 22:30:00 -
[89] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Argetlam Thorson wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Im amazed no one seems to care about this topic given that assault and logi utility in PC is being held hostage by the need to keep sentinels as the kings of CQC, a role that makes no sense for the suit design. Sentinel - a soldier stationed as a guard to challenge all comers and prevent a surprise attack The whole definition of a sentinel is someone who is guarding a point. Ergo, one would assume it should be the king of CQC as the points are generally in close quarters. The penalty for being the king of CQC (which also pushes the suit into fitting the word's definition) should be being extremely slow. Then you have Sentinel suits playing the role of a sentinel. Basic heavy suits could understandably be faster (relatively, anyway), possibly weaker, not as good at CQC, etc. They should be the suits people should want to use when they're not guarding a point but still want to wield a heavy weapon or have more HP than Medium/Light suits. Point defense is "I pick a spot then MURDER everyone who tries to come close." It does NOT mean CQC. Point defense and Close Quarter Defense are NOT the same thing. lol, dude, cmon now. "I pick a spot then MURDER everyone who tries to come CLOSE". " CLOSE" as in nearby, adjoining, abutting. Not "CLOSE" as in 50-70m downrange. CQC= Close Quarters Combat. "CLOSE" Quarters. Not "Over There" Quarters. "CLOSE" Quarters. Have some Doritos and Kickstart, they're actually good together. And don't try to correct me on Military terminology unless you have also served in the military. I guarantee you that your definition does not match reality.
I guarantee that my definition serves the intents and purposes of the circumstances we are in here, your RL military background is as relevent as my RL military background, in that in the fantastic sci-fi setting we're in neither really matters. Reality here is as the game parameters define them, the "Virtual Reality", if you will.
I didn't miss the point about Point Defense vs CQC, I'm just emphasizing the very productive design of Heavies in fufilling their Point Defense role by capitalizing on their CQC superiority not being broken, OP or otherwise innappropriate and justifying an adjustment.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
432
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 22:32:00 -
[90] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:You seem awfully invested in keeping heavies where they are.
Newest round of HMG nerfs already announced.
I hope rattati breaks the class entirely. Because the HMG exists on the razor's edge of balance.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Perhaps if your persuasive abilities were applied to reinforcing the Heavy's role and positon on the field instead of attempting re-defining it some of what Rattati is doing wouldn't happen.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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