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CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 9302	Posted - 2014.09.10 19:40:00 - [1] - Quote Hey guys So with Hotfix Charlie, we made some substantial changes to the Burst HMG. The changes made the weapon perform much better than in the past, becoming an effective option against single targets. However, it became just a bit too effective overall, squeezing out the regular HMG and many other weapons. So it's time to bring them back a bit (but not so much that they go back into obscurity). First off we're reducing the damage per round by 10%. Next is the more complex bit. We're decreasing the fire interval from 0.01 to 0.005. However, at the same time we're increasing the burst interval from 0.225 to 0.45. This change means that the effective rate of fire (that is, the rate of fire including the burst delay) does not increase. {(450.01 + 0.225)/45 =0.015 and (450.005 + 0.45)/45 = 0.015}. What this just means is that when you pull the trigger, you have less chance to spray and partially hit a target. It also means any opponents have a longer window between bursts to attack back (though it's still pretty short). I am open to going the other direction and making the burst delay shorter and the fire interval smaller, and would like to hear your experience in the matter. But keep in mind that the effective fire rate should still remain higher than the standard HMG, and any decrease in effective fire rate means that damage per round would be increasing to keep with the new DPS level. Heat per second is also increasing to 96/91.2/86.4. Now while this might seem completely excessive, remember that heat is only generated while firing, and not during the burst delay window. The actual result of this change means that you now overheat about 40 rounds earlier. Note that heat per second will also change if the fire interval changes, so as to make sure that the firing time before overheating now sits at about 3.5 seconds for the Six Kin Burst HMG (down from 4.1) As always, I am looking for your feedback, especially in this instance. Many of you have had a fairly decent amount of hands on experience with this weapon since Charlie, and I would love to hear your thoughts. As always, everything is up for changing, so if you have other thoughts on how to balance the Burst HMG feel free to share them. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2710	Posted - 2014.09.10 19:46:00 - [2] - Quote Will test before commenting. I'm not seeing anything that'll make the weapon subpar. Just less instablap.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 260	Posted - 2014.09.10 19:46:00 - [3] - Quote Good.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 9302	Posted - 2014.09.10 19:52:00 - [4] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Will test before commenting. I'm not seeing anything that'll make the weapon subpar. Just less instablap. I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. On the other hand, with this change the actual damage per burst is going down so there might be some people that should just survive that didn't before. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3984	Posted - 2014.09.10 20:01:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Will test before commenting. I'm not seeing anything that'll make the weapon subpar. Just less instablap. I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. On the other hand, with this change the actual damage per burst is going down so there might be some people that should just survive that didn't before. I would think that the advantage of the burst SHOULD be that fewer people are able to dodge a well placed attack, and that they can't just spray and pray. It seems like it should be a hit or miss weapon, with the burst interval sufficient to make that its weakness. I think it needs the testing, and an increase in burst interval in later patches if it still seems too effective. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 17626	Posted - 2014.09.10 20:04:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. Dodging bursts is not really a thing. The intervals we're talking about here are fractions of a second. It's much more noticeable when you miss part of a burst when you're actually firing the weapon - it's very difficult to tell how much of the burst you took when you're on the receiving end. Also, you tend to be dead. I'm in favour of increasing the burst interval. I can't see it making much of a difference in 'dodging' bursts but it increases the possibility of user error and missing becoming slightly more significant rather than just tap-tap-tapping and then receiving +50, regardless of the target. I do have one concern though. Increasing the RoF in a burst, then increasing the delay between bursts, leading to the same overall RoF. This approach leads to more alpha, does it not? That's mildly terrifying considering the already impressive alpha capability of the weapon. Flying to new horizons.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1721	Posted - 2014.09.10 20:13:00 - [7] - Quote I would simply increase dispersion. I assume it's meant to be the close range high DPS slaughterer, so increasing dispersion mens less bullets will hit a target at a known distance than now, meaning bursts must be closer to have the same applied DPS they have currently. Shoot Scout with yes.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 2982	Posted - 2014.09.10 20:31:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. I primarily run Amarr and Caldari assault dropsuits with appropriate tanks for their race... a burst HMG is almost an instantaneous death. Unless I just happen to be sprinting while the sentinel is finishing a burst and I have full shield/armor HP... I will always die. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 67	Posted - 2014.09.10 21:01:00 - [9] - Quote It overheats pretty easy as is...if faced with more than 1 attacker it would be guaranteed to overheat if were to be increased.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 9304	Posted - 2014.09.10 22:18:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. Dodging bursts is not really a thing. The intervals we're talking about here are fractions of a second. It's much more noticeable when you miss part of a burst when you're actually firing the weapon - it's very difficult to tell how much of the burst you took when you're on the receiving end. Also, you tend to be dead. I'm in favour of increasing the burst interval. I can't see it making much of a difference in 'dodging' bursts but it increases the possibility of user error and missing becoming slightly more significant rather than just tap-tap-tapping and then receiving +50, regardless of the target. I do have one concern though. Increasing the RoF in a burst, then increasing the delay between bursts, leading to the same overall RoF. This approach leads to more alpha, does it not? That's mildly terrifying considering the already impressive alpha capability of the weapon. No actually, it does not. The ROF increase just compresses the burst into a shorter timeframe that was already previously very short, but overall each burst now will actually do less damage due to the decrease in damage per round. Alena Ventrallis wrote: I would simply increase dispersion. I assume it's meant to be the close range high DPS slaughterer, so increasing dispersion mens less bullets will hit a target at a known distance than now, meaning bursts must be closer to have the same applied DPS they have currently. Due to the fact that's it's a HMG dispersion actually decreases the more you fire the weapon. I could look at lowering the rate that the dispersion drops and increase the maximum starting dispersion however, but I want to see how just tweaking the damage numbers plays out first. I am open to arguments though. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 2246	Posted - 2014.09.10 22:56:00 - [11] - Quote I think a range nerf is also reasonable to consider. Maybe optimal out to 15m and falloff to 25. Beyond that you'd do very little damage. This would make the burst HMG kind of like a shotgun on steroids. Just a thought. It may be a bad idea. Best PvE idea ever!
Spankdamonke Dapper Gentlemen Corporation 9	Posted - 2014.09.10 23:02:00 - [12] - Quote 12,000rpm?? I would say keep the 10% damage per round reduction, and reduce optimal to 22-25m. Then it can stay as a heavy-buster for objectives, without mowing everything down in the open with such extreme ease. Not sure how I feel about the interval changes until I can get some hands on testing...
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1519	Posted - 2014.09.10 23:31:00 - [13] - Quote While I am by no means an avid user of the HMG I do feel your approach is along the right sort of track here. Honestly happy that we can actually look at balance objectively now and things are changing for the better :) -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4077	Posted - 2014.09.11 01:01:00 - [14] - Quote Oh gez wis so the rate of fire that each burst has goes from 6000 to 12000? Yeah right so a burst from the HMG will feel like a burst from the combat rifle. Except that you fired much more bullets. So im going to die much quicker before i realised what the hell happend. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 1925	Posted - 2014.09.11 02:22:00 - [15] - Quote Looking forward to testing this new incarnation out Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1721	Posted - 2014.09.11 02:37:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. Dodging bursts is not really a thing. The intervals we're talking about here are fractions of a second. It's much more noticeable when you miss part of a burst when you're actually firing the weapon - it's very difficult to tell how much of the burst you took when you're on the receiving end. Also, you tend to be dead. I'm in favour of increasing the burst interval. I can't see it making much of a difference in 'dodging' bursts but it increases the possibility of user error and missing becoming slightly more significant rather than just tap-tap-tapping and then receiving +50, regardless of the target. I do have one concern though. Increasing the RoF in a burst, then increasing the delay between bursts, leading to the same overall RoF. This approach leads to more alpha, does it not? That's mildly terrifying considering the already impressive alpha capability of the weapon. No actually, it does not. The ROF increase just compresses the burst into a shorter timeframe that was already previously very short, but overall each burst now will actually do less damage due to the decrease in damage per round. In some cases this will result in more rounds hitting the target than would otherwise, but for the most part it's already so fast that it makes no difference, and the reduction of damage per burst makes more a difference in most situations. Alena Ventrallis wrote: I would simply increase dispersion. I assume it's meant to be the close range high DPS slaughterer, so increasing dispersion mens less bullets will hit a target at a known distance than now, meaning bursts must be closer to have the same applied DPS they have currently. Due to the fact that's it's a HMG dispersion actually decreases the more you fire the weapon. I could look at lowering the rate that the dispersion drops and increase the maximum starting dispersion however, but I want to see how just tweaking the damage numbers plays out first. I am open to arguments though. That's what I'm getting at. HMG DPS comes from volume of fire. Its not so much that each bullet hits hard, but that there are so many bullets hitting you all at once. Reducing damage hurts it even where it should shine. A reduction of optimal range means the distance between lethal death and slight tickle is a few meters. Dispersion means the closer you are, the more of your bullets hit directly in line with how it is meant to be played, as again the weapon doesn't kill from hard accurate hits (like the rifles) but instead fills the area with a huge volume of comparatively weaker shots, and the closer you are, the .ore of them hit, thus increasing your DPS. On paper, the burst should have the highest DPS, but the worst application of that paper DPS at range, achieved through dispersion. Similarly, and opposite, the assault HMG should have the lowest paper DPS of the HMGs, but be able to apply that DPS more accurately over longer distances. At range, the assault wins against the burst, because even though it has lower paper DPS, the assaults DPS is reaching the target more effectively and reliably than the burst is. Shoot Scout with yes.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2712	Posted - 2014.09.11 05:59:00 - [17] - Quote Actually I have had people slip through HMGs in burst and in full rock 'n roll more or less unscathed with maybe a scratch. I'm thinking that is unintended behavior. If you dance through an HMG reticle while he's throwing rounds downrange you should feel it. Scout suits are particularly obnoxious about this. But I feel your concerns. The thing that worries me is the yet faster overheat. The burst is rather obnoxious with the heat buildup and despite what people dream it is easy to miss a shot or at best get a glancing hit. Six bursts at level 5 HMG skill is an incredibly short window of opportunity to get results. Once they gun locks up you're dead. I think heating it up yet faster will make the gun less attractive for squad play and cater more to LAV hunters that most people hate. Upping the overheat will make sentinel suits more vulnerable to scouts. Let's face it, in the current meta scout vs. Heavy is kinda like putting a fat diabetic on the front lines fighting US or Royal Marines. Especially since the damage output of their primary weapon (HMGs in general) seem to have poor damage application to them. I have had scouts I was shooting in the back at 10-15 meters after two full seconds of sustained fire from an MH-82, boundless, or Six-kin. Do you have any recommendations for capture software/adapters I can use to catch the phenomenon and link it? It's not a problem with the assaults, logis or other heavies. This is why I worry about overheating the guns faster.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2712	Posted - 2014.09.11 06:05:00 - [18] - Quote Actually I agree with the guy before my last post. Rang reduction on the burst would make sense. It's a good danger-stupid range shotgun heavy weapon but it deeply outperforms other HMGs at their best ranges. This is the main problem with the gun IMHO. I would keep the effective and reduce the damage in effective but shorten the optimal Another thought would be to reduce the range of the burst a bit and not have the dispersion tighten at all. Payment for volume of fire in inaccuracy makes perfect sense to me.
Spankdamonke Dapper Gentlemen Corporation 10	Posted - 2014.09.11 06:09:00 - [19] - Quote I also have concerns that the proposed rate of fire will simply be too much for the game's hit detection to keep up with. And thus to properly apply damage with consistency. Maybe something in the .0075 fire interval range? Alena's dispersion suggestion would pair nicely with that It seems that you are pretty uneasy with your own proposed changes ....did you have a different method in mind than any of those that others have outlined so far?
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 17656	Posted - 2014.09.11 06:15:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. Dodging bursts is not really a thing. The intervals we're talking about here are fractions of a second. It's much more noticeable when you miss part of a burst when you're actually firing the weapon - it's very difficult to tell how much of the burst you took when you're on the receiving end. Also, you tend to be dead. I'm in favour of increasing the burst interval. I can't see it making much of a difference in 'dodging' bursts but it increases the possibility of user error and missing becoming slightly more significant rather than just tap-tap-tapping and then receiving +50, regardless of the target. I do have one concern though. Increasing the RoF in a burst, then increasing the delay between bursts, leading to the same overall RoF. This approach leads to more alpha, does it not? That's mildly terrifying considering the already impressive alpha capability of the weapon. No actually, it does not. The ROF increase just compresses the burst into a shorter timeframe that was already previously very short, but overall each burst now will actually do less damage due to the decrease in damage per round. In some cases this will result in more rounds hitting the target than would otherwise, but for the most part it's already so fast that it makes no difference, and the reduction of damage per burst makes more a difference in most situations. Sure, you're getting slightly less damage per burst (still looking at something like 550-600, off the top of my head) but that burst is being delivered twice as fast. If the burst HMG user can aim properly, this gives even less time before someone gets instasplatted if they're not stacking HP or are another heavy. Even if it takes more bursts it's an advantage to have a higher alpha mix because shoving all your damage up front works really well. The burst time drops from almost half a second to just under a quarter of a second. Twice as fast, that's really significant. Even with the doubled burst fire interval that's an advantage. Here's why: Assume a target takes two bursts to kill. If it only takes one the new burst HMG is at a massive advantage but let's ignore that for now. Old burst HMG: First burst (0.45s) --> Burst interval (0.45+0.225=0.675) --> Second burst (0.675 + 0.36(this is 0.45*0.8 to account for damage advantage) leading to a TTK of 1.035 seconds. New burst HMG: First burst (0.225s) --> Burst interval (0.225+0.45=0.675) --> Second burst (0.675+0.225 = 0.9s) leading to a TTK of 0.9 seconds. That advantage is true for almost all types of target. You're getting slightly more of an advantage over the old burst HMG. I see this as undesirable considering the current burst HMG is already massively powerful. Even with the damage reduction the TTK of the weapon actually decreases. That example was for multi-burst targets as well. For lighter targets which only take one burst, it's going from lightning fast kill to instakill and helping the burst HMG even more. Flying to new horizons.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2712	Posted - 2014.09.11 06:44:00 - [21] - Quote Light targets tend to survive all HMGs more readily. Assaults should be your comparison. In my experience with the advanced birst unless a scout holds still (I chalk these up to the player having a petit mal seizure unless they are hacking) it takes three bursts to kill them over the assault 2 for some reason. I have seen calscouts strafe and pass completely through a boundless reticle at full speed (lowest dispersion) and take 10% to shields.. I've seen scouts hosed in the back longer than it takes to kill tanked assaults live through the barrage. I want to know what recording devices I can use to show this.
George Moros RestlessSpirits 416	Posted - 2014.09.11 09:09:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. On the other hand, with this change the actual damage per burst is going down so there might be some people that should just survive that didn't before. I share your concerns too. With this change, BHMG will fire 45 rounds in 225 milliseconds. This will make BHMG a shotgun on steroids. Longer range, harder hitting breach shotgun. Pulvereus ergo queritor.
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1804	Posted - 2014.09.11 09:26:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So with Hotfix Charlie, we made some substantial changes to the Burst HMG. The changes made the weapon perform much better than in the past, becoming an effective option against single targets. However, it became just a bit too effective overall, squeezing out the regular HMG and many other weapons. So it's time to bring them back a bit (but not so much that they go back into obscurity). First off we're reducing the damage per round by 10%. Next is the more complex bit. We're decreasing the fire interval from 0.01 to 0.005. However, at the same time we're increasing the burst interval from 0.225 to 0.45. This change means that the effective rate of fire (that is, the rate of fire including the burst delay) does not increase. {(450.01 + 0.225)/45 =0.015 and (450.005 + 0.45)/45 = 0.015}. What this just means is that when you pull the trigger, you have less chance to spray and partially hit a target. It also means any opponents have a longer window between bursts to attack back (though it's still pretty short). I am open to going the other direction and making the burst delay shorter and the fire interval higher, and would like to hear your experience in the matter. But keep in mind that the effective fire rate should still remain higher than the standard HMG, and any decrease in effective fire rate means that damage per round would be increasing to keep with the new DPS level. Heat per second is also increasing to 96/91.2/86.4. Now while this might seem completely excessive, remember that heat is only generated while firing, and not during the burst delay window. The actual result of this change means that you now overheat about 40 rounds (or just under a single burst) earlier. Note that heat per second will also change if the fire interval changes, so as to make sure that the firing time before overheating now sits at about 3.5 seconds for the Six Kin Burst HMG (down from 4.1) As always, I am looking for your feedback, especially in this instance. Many of you have had a fairly decent amount of hands on experience with this weapon since Charlie, and I would love to hear your thoughts. As always, everything is up for changing, so if you have other thoughts on how to balance the Burst HMG feel free to share them. This is a totally weapon-breaking triple nerf (damage, burst RoF, heat build up). It is far heavier than the buff (actually one buff and one nerf) that brought the weapon into wide usage. Such a change would be guaranteed to put the BHMG back on the 'obscure weapon' list, and then some. To expand a little, it's important to bear in mind that the nerfs interact with and exaggerate one another. Increasing the burst duration by 100% (and therefore reducing the RoF DURING the burst by 50%) would by itself make the weapon pretty feeble. It means that an enemy in the line of fire can easily move out the way before the burst completes, so they only receive half of the burst's damage where they would receive all of it previously. Add that to the damage decrease, and you will be taking far more bursts to down an enemy. And of course, due to the heat increase, the one thing you will now need lots of (bursts) will be in shorter supply. It is such a massive drop in overall efficiency, probably 30-50%, that no weapon could survive it.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1128	Posted - 2014.09.11 09:30:00 - [24] - Quote They need to be adjusted so repping isn't rendered 100% useless. They are chosen because you can't out rep damage,at all,so it's a guaranteed kill. Even basic HMGs don't render reps 100% useless. Which is why people are moving away from them. And yes as they are,even with my low eHP i can usually dodge some bullets preventing my own death. A faster rate of damage application would guarantee my death every time. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2713	Posted - 2014.09.11 10:11:00 - [25] - Quote Actually having the burst able to break a logi rep chain is a good thing. It adds a counter that is not, in fact, dependent upon ganking the logi or spamming AoE fire. And even the base HMG has about 400 more DPS than two logis can keep up with using proto rep tools. Its just harder.
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1525	Posted - 2014.09.11 10:57:00 - [26] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. Dodging bursts is not really a thing. The intervals we're talking about here are fractions of a second. It's much more noticeable when you miss part of a burst when you're actually firing the weapon - it's very difficult to tell how much of the burst you took when you're on the receiving end. Also, you tend to be dead. I'm in favour of increasing the burst interval. I can't see it making much of a difference in 'dodging' bursts but it increases the possibility of user error and missing becoming slightly more significant rather than just tap-tap-tapping and then receiving +50, regardless of the target. I do have one concern though. Increasing the RoF in a burst, then increasing the delay between bursts, leading to the same overall RoF. This approach leads to more alpha, does it not? That's mildly terrifying considering the already impressive alpha capability of the weapon. No actually, it does not. The ROF increase just compresses the burst into a shorter timeframe that was already previously very short, but overall each burst now will actually do less damage due to the decrease in damage per round. In some cases this will result in more rounds hitting the target than would otherwise, but for the most part it's already so fast that it makes no difference, and the reduction of damage per burst makes more a difference in most situations. Sure, you're getting slightly less damage per burst (still looking at something like 550-600, off the top of my head) but that burst is being delivered twice as fast. If the burst HMG user can aim properly, this gives even less time before someone gets instasplatted if they're not stacking HP or are another heavy. Even if it takes more bursts it's an advantage to have a higher alpha mix because shoving all your damage up front works really well. The burst time drops from almost half a second to just under a quarter of a second. Twice as fast, that's really significant. Even with the doubled burst fire interval that's an advantage. Here's why: Assume a target takes two bursts to kill. If it only takes one the new burst HMG is at a massive advantage but let's ignore that for now. Old burst HMG: First burst (0.45s) --> Burst interval (0.45+0.225=0.675) --> Second burst (0.675 + 0.36(this is 0.45*0.8 to account for damage advantage) leading to a TTK of 1.035 seconds. New burst HMG: First burst (0.225s) --> Burst interval (0.225+0.45=0.675) --> Second burst (0.675+0.225 = 0.9s) leading to a TTK of 0.9 seconds. That advantage is true for almost all types of target. You're getting slightly more of an advantage over the old burst HMG. I see this as undesirable considering the current burst HMG is already massively powerful. Even with the damage reduction the TTK of the weapon actually decreases. That example was for multi-burst targets as well. For lighter targets which only take one burst, it's going from lightning fast kill to instakill and helping the burst HMG even more. Wait, if your math is correct (and for this I will assume it is) then what the hell? I thought we were meant to be reducing the power of the burst, not making it kill even faster!? lol :S :S -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4811	Posted - 2014.09.11 11:43:00 - [27] - Quote I currently use and have always used the Burst HMG. The trick to being effective with it is to hit a target with as many bullets as possible before you can let them get away. decreasing fire interval just means less time that I need to keeep my reticle on a person. This makes it MUCH harder for an enemy to escape or react. Heck, with how it is now I sometimes kill people as they run around corners because of how fast the thing fires. The problem is that decreasing the burst delay makes the weapon fire similarly to a standard HMG...but I guess if it had increased heat buildup and the higher RoF it would at least be a different feeling weapon. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5543	Posted - 2014.09.11 11:57:00 - [28] - Quote I think it's fine really. Yeah it kills me and its annoying sometimes but it is what it is, a burst hmg. It's damage is burst because it has overheat as well. You have to either wait for the heat to go down, draw your sidearm OR overheat and die. I'd have a problem with it if it could maintain constant bursts but it can't, it is a burst hmg, It dishes out burst damage. It also runs out of ammo quick as well. It's fine seriously, people just don't like it because it's working as intended and kills them when they try and rambo like 99% of players with......... Drum roll Their preferred rifle, boo hoo. If the burst gets nerfed then you need to seriously be looking at regular hmgs as they melt very quickly, shotguns on scouts, re's, plasma cannons etc, etc. These are all quick killing guns so if people dont like being killed by the burst, then we need to look at everything that kills quick. My hometown beat Manchester united. Git gud man utd. 4-0
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4078	Posted - 2014.09.11 11:58:00 - [29] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: I currently use and have always used the Burst HMG. The trick to being effective with it is to hit a target with as many bullets as possible before you can let them get away. decreasing fire interval just means less time that I need to keeep my reticle on a person. This makes it MUCH harder for an enemy to escape or react. Heck, with how it is now I sometimes kill people as they run around corners because of how fast the thing fires. The problem is that decreasing the burst delay makes the weapon fire similarly to a standard HMG...but I guess if it had increased heat buildup and the higher RoF it would at least be a different feeling weapon. You do know that the rate of fire that each burst has will go from 6000 to 12000? Basically you are going to fire your burst rounds twice as fast. Which means you line up the target, press R1 and "PFFFT" hes dead with less then half a second. Its going to be instant death for mediums and scouts. hell its going to feel like if you fired a burst from the combat rifle. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 769	Posted - 2014.09.11 12:13:00 - [30] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: It is such a massive drop in overall efficiency, probably 30-50% except that its only a 10% nerf to dps and its also a ~20% buff to TTK to soft targets thats not 30-50% Prime League champion SGL Sidearm champion Fanfest '14 All star champion

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12114	Posted - 2014.09.11 13:12:00 - [31] - Quote 10/10 would play with corners to make a sentinel use up his burst. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 9321	Posted - 2014.09.11 13:37:00 - [32] - Quote After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5544	Posted - 2014.09.11 13:41:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. It's fine!. That was spiffing.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 1926	Posted - 2014.09.11 14:00:00 - [34] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. Please do not swap the dispersion that would be a deal breaker for me and Id never touch the burst again.The people calling for a range decrease are most likely not heavies don't realize that a range nerf would drive all but the most masochistic away from the burst(also might be some anti heavy bias/QQ) Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5544	Posted - 2014.09.11 14:03:00 - [35] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. Please do not swap the dispersion that would be a deal breaker for me and Id never touch the burst again.The people calling for a range decrease are most likely not heavies don't realize that a range nerf would drive all but the most masochistic away from the burst(also might be some anti heavy bias/QQ) And a range nerf would mean that they should expect it to be bursting exclusively in their face lol. That was spiffing.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2227	Posted - 2014.09.11 14:27:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. One nice thing about normal dispersion is that it satisfies our real-world intuitions about how accuracy falls off with range. Would like to see normal dispersion on all weapons eventually. PSN: RationalSpark
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4217	Posted - 2014.09.11 17:19:00 - [37] - Quote I have been using the Burst HMG since Charlie and I published my evaluation in this thread. I think the key goal in tweaking the Burst HMG should be to insure that it takes more than a single burst to the body to kill a medium frame suit with any sort of tank fitted. (Use a Minmatar with 1 basic shield extender as your ruler.) To one burst kill a Medium Frame should require a head shot. (One burst killing Scouts is fine, because it is so dam hard to land that one burst.) The reason this is important is that the pause between bursts gives the target a small window to react and save themselves. Adding the pause to the burst extends the Time To Kill, and prevents the target from feeling completely helpless. I think the 10% damage nerf would probably achieve that objective. Increasing rate of fire during the burst and increasing the time between bursts will mean more damage is applied during the initial burst, which would give it more potential to one burst kill lightly tanked suits. This is counterproductive to the objective I stated above. Edit: I misread initially. So, the fire rate during the burst will be doubled, but the same amount of rounds will be fired as before, making the burst duration half as long? But due to lengthening the pause, both the time and the number of rounds fired before the second burst (including first burst and first pause) will be the same as before? I am hesitant about changing rate of fire, burst duration, and overheat. The Burst HMG GÇ£feelsGÇ¥ right at the moment. I am very experienced with it, yet I still overheat multiple times in a match, often in the middle of fire fights. It really feels like it is on a knife edge of effectiveness. It is definitely effective right now, but it feels like a vary small change could break it. So, I am fine with the 10% nerf to damage, but I would prefer to leave it at that for Delta, and then look at it again in Echo. For Reference, The current numbers: 6 continuous bursts will overheat an Advanced Burst HMG. 7 continuous bursts will overheat a Prototype Burst HMG. 10 bursts will empty the clip of any Burst HMG. 35 bursts will use up all ammo reserves on any Burst HMG. (Probably varies with Ammo Skill) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4217	Posted - 2014.09.11 17:34:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Will test before commenting. I'm not seeing anything that'll make the weapon subpar. Just less instablap. I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. On the other hand, with this change the actual damage per burst is going down so there might be some people that should just survive that didn't before. Partial hits are a factor currently, but the longer pause between bursts would be just as big a survival factor as partial hits are now. That is, the amount of times people in Delta will be able to survive due to being able to move during pauses should be at least as high as the amount of people in Charlie that survived due to avoiding part of the burst. Also this: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It's much more noticeable when you miss part of a burst when you're actually firing the weapon - it's very difficult to tell how much of the burst you took when you're on the receiving end. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4219	Posted - 2014.09.11 17:50:00 - [39] - Quote A little off topic, but could we also get a Breach variant that fires a large (high damage) rounds with a Rate of Fire of one round every 0.6 seconds? No dispersion. Maybe with the range of an Assault HMG? It would give us an HMG which might actually be effective in Manis Peak Domination. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4219	Posted - 2014.09.11 17:52:00 - [40] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I think a range nerf is also reasonable to consider. Maybe optimal out to 15m and falloff to 25. Beyond that you'd do very little damage. This would make the burst HMG kind of like a shotgun on steroids. Just a thought. It may be a bad idea. Or we could give it the range of the Standard HMG prior to Charlie. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2721	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:00:00 - [41] - Quote Actually reversing the dispersion pattern from a normal HMG might be good. It can't start as loose as the regular one or it's not going to be worth anything beyond shotgun range. But decreasing efficiency in favor of alpha seems fair sa a tradeoff.
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5555	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:02:00 - [42] - Quote Burst hmg is fine. That was spiffing.
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1808	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:05:00 - [43] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: It is such a massive drop in overall efficiency, probably 30-50% except that its only a 10% nerf to dps until you hit the lower heat capacity and its also a ~20% buff to TTK to soft targets thats not 30-50% Its a fairly noticeable nerf to fighting heavies and hp stackers, but i wouldn't say thats really a bad thing considering they instakill those who arnt Actually I misunderstood the burst/fire interval change, so yes 30-50% was maybe an overestimate. Still, it would be a 10% damage nerf and you'd fire around 15% fewer shots before overheat, so that still adds up to a pretty massive nerf.
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1808	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:15:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. Burst HMG range is pathetic as it is. Surely you can't nerf that of all things? Not to mention that the regular HMG already has a longer ranged version (assault), so it hardly needs to outrange the BHMG on the non-assault model as well. I think a 10% damage nerf OR a heat build up increase would be reasonable. Not both, and definitely not both and further nerfs. Dust has a long and ignoble history of double or treble nerfs that totally remove weapons from the battlefield, which we seemed to have moved away from in the last few months. Let's not go back to the bad old days of stomping into the ground rather than tweaking.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4220	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:30:00 - [45] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Actually I misunderstood the burst/fire interval change, so yes 30-50% was maybe an overestimate. Still, it would be a 10% damage nerf and you'd fire around 15% fewer shots before overheat, so that still adds up to a pretty massive nerf. I agree with Ryme. The last partial Burst should not be considered as applying damage. The last Burst is usually that extra burst that goes off after you take your finger off the trigger. So if the Burst HMG overheats one burst sooner, it means you have to take your finger off the trigger one Burst sooner. That is effectively a 17% nerf to the Advanced Burst HMG and a 14% nerf to the Proto Burst HMG in most encounters. So, with the 10% damage nerf that would be a 27% nerf to the Advanced Burst HMG and a 24% nerf to the Proto Burst HMG in most encounters. I say most encounters because under current conditions I have to watch my heat even in 1v1 encounters if my target is strafing. As people are learning to strafe against the Burst I am finding I am overheating in 1v1 encounters more often. In multi target encounters heat management is always an issue, and I am regularly having to duck behind cover mid engagement either due to overheat, or to stop firing for a second to avoid overheat. Reducing the number of bursts before overheat, reduces the Damage you can apply in an engagement. Due to the high rate of fire you can consider each burst as one packet of damage. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
taxi bastard Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 262	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:31:00 - [46] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. give it big kick and dispersion - with its power close up it needs to be reliable close up but have considerable drwabacks at range.....which it currently does not have
TechMechMeds KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 5557	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:32:00 - [47] - Quote Seriously, the burst is fine. That was spiffing.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4220	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:45:00 - [48] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: You do know that the rate of fire that each burst has will go from 6000 to 12000? Basically you are going to fire your burst rounds twice as fast. Which means you line up the target, press R1 and "PFFFT" hes dead with less then half a second. Its going to be instant death for mediums and scouts. hell its going to feel like if you fired a burst from the combat rifle. Dark cloud, you misread. The overall Rate of fire and the rounds per burst are not changing. What is changing is that the same number of rounds in a burst (same damage per burst) is being fired in half the time, but the pause between bursts is being extended so that the time between the start of the first burst and the start of the second burst will be the same as before. So the same damage per burst, and the same burst interval, it is just that the burst part of that interval is shorter and the pause part is longer. Then on top of that they are nerfing damage by 10% and nerfing heat. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4220	Posted - 2014.09.11 19:02:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). Now that I have rapped my head around it, I am not against your Fire Interval/Burst Interval change. I am not against a 10% damage nerf. (I don't like you nerfing my baby, but I agree it is needed.) I donGÇÖt like the idea of additional heat buildup. I believe that one less available burst will translate into an additional damage nerf in most encounters. CCP Logibro wrote: We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. By reversing the dispersion mechanic for the Burst HMG you would have to GÇ£burstGÇ¥ it to maintain accuracy. Since the Burst HMG is not a spray and prey weapon, having the first burst be more accurate than subsequent bursts makes sense. I think having increasing dispersion for the Burst HMG makes sense intuitively. The fundamental principles underlying the Burst HMG are different than those of the Standard HMG. Burst is about precisely placed bursts, while the standard HMG is about sustained fire. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4220	Posted - 2014.09.11 19:08:00 - [50] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Actually reversing the dispersion pattern from a normal HMG might be good. It can't start as loose as the regular one or it's not going to be worth anything beyond shotgun range. But decreasing efficiency in favor of alpha seems fair sa a tradeoff. By reversing the dispersion pattern I am fairly sure he is suggesting that it would start with less dispersion and gain more dispersion the longer you hold down the trigger. Currently the dispersion is higher when you first pull the trigger, and as you hold it down the HMG becomes more accurate. That is why the circle radical gets smaller. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4221	Posted - 2014.09.11 19:20:00 - [51] - Quote To be more concise: A 10% nerf is fine. A 10% nerf + overheating one burst sooner = Flaylock Pistol level nerf. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2721	Posted - 2014.09.11 19:33:00 - [52] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Actually reversing the dispersion pattern from a normal HMG might be good. It can't start as loose as the regular one or it's not going to be worth anything beyond shotgun range. But decreasing efficiency in favor of alpha seems fair sa a tradeoff. By reversing the dispersion pattern I am fairly sure he is suggesting that it would start with less dispersion and gain more dispersion the longer you hold down the trigger. Currently the dispersion is higher when you first pull the trigger, and as you hold it down the HMG becomes more accurate. That is why the circle radical gets smaller. You just said what I did in lockstep with my statement. I dunno if you're trying to agree with me, but if you're correcting me you might wanna wipe the egg off your face.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1723	Posted - 2014.09.11 19:44:00 - [53] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. Awesome. Burst should be close range brawler, so dispersion is its major weakness. It has massive FPS, but its accuracy Prevents it from killing over long distances. Meanwhile, the assault HMG has lower DPs, but is very accurate and can apply that DPs much easier than the burst can. Shoot Scout with yes.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1131	Posted - 2014.09.11 20:50:00 - [54] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Actually having the burst able to break a logi rep chain is a good thing. It adds a counter that is not, in fact, dependent upon ganking the logi or spamming AoE fire. And even the base HMG has about 400 more DPS than two logis can keep up with using proto rep tools. Its just harder. You don't seem to understand,it's the same concept as why shotguns a KN are popular. People don't want to have to try,so they pick the easiest i-win button of the time (FOTM). Negating reps is a 100% guaranteed way to make a FOTM. People love easy kills,reps remove easy kills,negating reps makes them easy again. And it leaves a logi without sufficient support to survive,seeing as no-one wants them buffed to run away. Negating reps is a bad thing. Unless they buff rep tools to counter SG and burst,they will probably stay FOTM. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Chief-Shotty WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 202	Posted - 2014.09.11 22:45:00 - [55] - Quote I think the delay interval between salvos being increased is key. This should at least give users some time to avoid the final death blow if they survived the first burst. I think the burst should be the defacto cqc weapon akin to shotgun potential but leaves the user open to retaliation if the target is missed or poor fire control. So i am game. I also noticed you can still spam fire if you momentarily let off the trigger. Heat builds up faster but you could get a quick burst out absolving the interval the burst hmg has. 8-Time New Eden Mass Driver Champion Min Commando Combat Rifle and Mass Driver = FUN and Tears OMG the Tears!! :)
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4081	Posted - 2014.09.12 09:38:00 - [56] - Quote Did some testing with the Advanced burst HMG. Currently it overheats after 266 rounds fired (6 bursts). every decent player avoids firing the 6 bursts in a row due to the overheat and vulnerbable effect it has onto you. To put this in perspective you can fire 225 rounds without overheating (5 bursts). So if the HMG will overheat in around 40 rounds sooner not much will change. Why? Simply cause 266-40=226. You will be aible to fire 226 rounds without overheating the HMG which means 5 bursts without overheat and the 6th will only contain 1 bullet and the thing starts jam up. So i hardly see a significant impact to the weapons behaviour. Most decent players will fire 5 bursts and then switch to a sidearm if the enemy had the luck to survive. Now about the 10% damage nerf: Current damage per burst: MLR-A Burst HMG= 595,35HP Six-Kin Burst HMG= 623,7HP After the change: MLR-A Burst HMG= 535,8HP Six-Kin Burst HMG= 561,33HP To put this simple: scouts will die in 1 burst, medium suits in 2 and heavys in 3. So not much will change cause we cant controll how many bullets we want to fire. If a medium suit has like 10 HP left we still fire a full burst with 535HP damage. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2736	Posted - 2014.09.12 10:07:00 - [57] - Quote Meee One wrote: Negating reps is a bad thing. Unless they buff rep tools to counter SG and burst,they will probably stay FOTM. No sir. For every tool there must be a hard counter. The hard counter to the burst HMG attacking your sentinel is to put down the rep tool and killing the burster with your rifle before he gets into optimal or assisting your heavy in focusing fire to kill him. Tactics trump equipment. Equipment trumps specific equipment but the unstoppable rep heavy has three hard counters. Shotguns, nova knives and the burst HMG are intended for cracking holes in solid defenses. There is no universe where the logi sentinel duo always wins is good meta for the game.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4226	Posted - 2014.09.12 12:20:00 - [58] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Actually reversing the dispersion pattern from a normal HMG might be good. It can't start as loose as the regular one or it's not going to be worth anything beyond shotgun range. But decreasing efficiency in favor of alpha seems fair sa a tradeoff. By reversing the dispersion pattern I am fairly sure he is suggesting that it would start with less dispersion and gain more dispersion the longer you hold down the trigger. Currently the dispersion is higher when you first pull the trigger, and as you hold it down the HMG becomes more accurate. That is why the circle radical gets smaller. You just said what I did in lockstep with my statement. I dunno if you're trying to agree with me, but if you're correcting me you might wanna wipe the egg off your face. Yeah, it looks like I misread your post. I had been on the thread for a while and I was probably loosing focus. Usually I have much better reading comprehension, but this is the second time I misread something in this thread. I apologize. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4226	Posted - 2014.09.12 12:44:00 - [59] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Did some testing with the Advanced burst HMG. Currently it overheats after 266 rounds fired (6 bursts). every decent player avoids firing the 6 bursts in a row due to the overheat and vulnerbable effect it has onto you. To put this in perspective you can fire 225 rounds without overheating (5 bursts). So if the HMG will overheat in around 40 rounds sooner not much will change. Why? Simply cause 266-40=226. You will be aible to fire 226 rounds without overheating the HMG which means 5 bursts without overheat and the 6th will only contain 1 bullet and the thing starts jam up. If this is true, that with the heat change there will still be 1 round before overheat after the 5th burst is fired, then I agree, the heat change will not have any significant effect. As I was saying earlier, it is better to measure in Bursts rather than rounds, because it does not make much difference how many rounds are in the overheat burst. Actually, since heat takes a while to dissipate, if you have two engagements one after the other, you may overheat on the 4th or 5th burst in the second engagement, so heat changes might have more effect in that situation, but still that is not common enough to make a big difference. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 453	Posted - 2014.09.12 17:02:00 - [60] - Quote HI Logibro, any chance you could be overthinking this? why don't you simply undo 50% of the changes made for charlie? it was agreed by most that it wasn't quite up to parr, and now it's slightly over. so my thoughts would suggest that changes were good but went slightly too far so just expand the interval,etc half way back towards bravo numbers. in bravo it was ok, just needed a slight tweak. don't forget either that in delta there are changes to projectile weapon profiles which should be decreasing their effectiveness vs shields. when you factor that in alongside these proposed changes. you'll struggle about 15% (guessing) more against all targets, because of the faster burst speed you won't be able to follow your target (means you have to hit full on), you'll need to wait longer to fire a second burst, and each burst will do less damage. you will affect firing time from both sides, as well as decreasing damage, at the same time as decreasing effectiveness vs shields, not to mention the extra heat buildup which is already deadly. as a calsent the burst hmg is literally the only thing keeping it competitive. against other heavies this will break the weapon. (i strongly suspect that faster heat build up alone vs heavies will do that,tbh) this is a 5 sided nerf. would a little semi reverse be an option? Otherwise i think you are seriously in danger of making it worse than pre charlie.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2756	Posted - 2014.09.12 17:16:00 - [61] - Quote Unlessyou pick a fight with another fatty the calsent is phenomenal.
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1136	Posted - 2014.09.12 22:54:00 - [62] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Meee One wrote: Negating reps is a bad thing. Unless they buff rep tools to counter SG and burst,they will probably stay FOTM. No sir. For every tool there must be a hard counter. The hard counter to the burst HMG attacking your sentinel is to put down the rep tool and killing the burster with your rifle before he gets into optimal or assisting your heavy in focusing fire to kill him. Tactics trump equipment. Equipment trumps specific equipment but the unstoppable rep heavy has three hard counters. Shotguns, nova knives and the burst HMG are intended for cracking holes in solid defenses. There is no universe where the logi sentinel duo always wins is good meta for the game. >slayer logis got logistics nerfed to where it's currently at >tells me to put away my equipment and slay >lolwut? Loltactics,what is so "tactical" about spraying as many bullets as you can? Sniper rifles are tactical,having to decide who to shoot so you can get a kill and remain hidden. You're saying the only effective way to support in that situation wouldn't be to use equipment,which the suit should accel in,but to use its weapon? Lolno,maybe the buff logistics needs based on that comment is the ability to straight up negate burst damage. Trying to "prevent a killer bee uprising" and all... Because if my equipment is inefficient enough not to do what my suit is supposed to be OP at,that i must resort to using my weapon,that is horribly wrong...unless your intention is to bring killer bees back. It's becoming less and less worth it to use a rep tool,short range,bad suit stats to match that range,low rep amount so i can't keep my only defense alive against a basic RR. BTW,You forgot REs,vehicles,road kill,grenades that kill the logi,MD. Dust has become "Spray and pray" 514,and bursts are another proof of that. Oh,and good logis don't just rep heavies they rep anyone that is injured. My particular example was referring to an assault. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2759	Posted - 2014.09.13 06:34:00 - [63] - Quote Meee One wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Meee One wrote: Negating reps is a bad thing. Unless they buff rep tools to counter SG and burst,they will probably stay FOTM. No sir. For every tool there must be a hard counter. The hard counter to the burst HMG attacking your sentinel is to put down the rep tool and killing the burster with your rifle before he gets into optimal or assisting your heavy in focusing fire to kill him. Tactics trump equipment. Equipment trumps specific equipment but the unstoppable rep heavy has three hard counters. Shotguns, nova knives and the burst HMG are intended for cracking holes in solid defenses. There is no universe where the logi sentinel duo always wins is good meta for the game. >slayer logis got logistics nerfed to where it's currently at >tells me to put away my equipment and slay >lolwut? Loltactics,what is so "tactical" about spraying as many bullets as you can? Sniper rifles are tactical,having to decide who to shoot so you can get a kill and remain hidden. You're saying the only effective way to support in that situation wouldn't be to use equipment,which the suit should accel in,but to use its weapon? Lolno,maybe the buff logistics needs based on that comment is the ability to straight up negate burst damage. Trying to "prevent a killer bee uprising" and all... Because if my equipment is inefficient enough not to do what my suit is supposed to be OP at,that i must resort to using my weapon,that is horribly wrong...unless your intention is to bring killer bees back. It's becoming less and less worth it to use a rep tool,short range,bad suit stats to match that range,low rep amount so i can't keep my only defense alive against a basic RR. BTW,You forgot REs,vehicles,road kill,grenades that kill the logi,MD. Dust has become "Spray and pray" 514,and bursts are another proof of that. Oh,and good logis don't just rep heavies they rep anyone that is injured. My particular example was referring to an assault. I have yet to meet a logi rep chain on an assault that couldnt be utterly destroyed with a standard HMG, mass driver or rifle at appropriate range. Its the sentinel chain that needs a burst, shotgun or "kill the logi" first. And I absolutely agree. My few rep tool suits all wind up repping any nearby blueberries because I like cannon fodder. Commandos are never expected to be reppers. I tend to rep the logis first.
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 454	Posted - 2014.09.13 11:44:00 - [64] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Unlessyou pick a fight with another fatty the calsent is phenomenal. Lol. phenomenal is definitely too strong a word. the thing is that as a heavy you need to run away from heavies... what good is that in a "defender" role? just run away when the fat guy turns up. or crowds. or remotes or shotguns or logibro heavies.
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y Dark Taboo 210	Posted - 2014.09.13 13:21:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat). We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it. Why don't you guys do something about the shotguns? The burst HMG as it is right now is actually a match for it and you want to screw with it? :c The only reason more people are not complaining about the shotgun - OVER HALF OF DUST USES THEM o:< Or the nova knives, 1 hit wonders with lightning speed! I can finally kill scouts with shotguns as fast as they can kill me and I actually have a chance to take down someone trying to knife me. A heavy is supposed to do a lot of damage and take a lot, BECAUSE THEY ARE SLOOOOWWWW. You know, sacrifice speed for power and defense? Heck, scouts can stack plates/shields and rival our armor rating and still zippidy doo da around the place, killing in 1-3 hits with those shotguns. G.L.O.R.Y solider, Master of the Heavy (Amarr & Gallente)
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 3988	Posted - 2014.09.13 15:19:00 - [66] - Quote I think losing the dmg might be a bad move. I always thought of the burst as a anti fatty weapon. Losing the dmg will make it less useful when fightin a full auto hmg(which is already the best non-fatty fighting weapon. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1138	Posted - 2014.09.14 14:18:00 - [67] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Meee One wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Meee One wrote: Negating reps is a bad thing. Unless they buff rep tools to counter SG and burst,they will probably stay FOTM. No sir. For every tool there must be a hard counter. The hard counter to the burst HMG attacking your sentinel is to put down the rep tool and killing the burster with your rifle before he gets into optimal or assisting your heavy in focusing fire to kill him. Tactics trump equipment. Equipment trumps specific equipment but the unstoppable rep heavy has three hard counters. Shotguns, nova knives and the burst HMG are intended for cracking holes in solid defenses. There is no universe where the logi sentinel duo always wins is good meta for the game. >slayer logis got logistics nerfed to where it's currently at >tells me to put away my equipment and slay >lolwut? Loltactics,what is so "tactical" about spraying as many bullets as you can? Sniper rifles are tactical,having to decide who to shoot so you can get a kill and remain hidden. You're saying the only effective way to support in that situation wouldn't be to use equipment,which the suit should accel in,but to use its weapon? Lolno,maybe the buff logistics needs based on that comment is the ability to straight up negate burst damage. Trying to "prevent a killer bee uprising" and all... Because if my equipment is inefficient enough not to do what my suit is supposed to be OP at,that i must resort to using my weapon,that is horribly wrong...unless your intention is to bring killer bees back. It's becoming less and less worth it to use a rep tool,short range,bad suit stats to match that range,low rep amount so i can't keep my only defense alive against a basic RR. BTW,You forgot REs,vehicles,road kill,grenades that kill the logi,MD. Dust has become "Spray and pray" 514,and bursts are another proof of that. Oh,and good logis don't just rep heavies they rep anyone that is injured. My particular example was referring to an assault. I have yet to meet a logi rep chain on an assault that couldnt be utterly destroyed with a standard HMG, mass driver or rifle at appropriate range. Its the sentinel chain that needs a burst, shotgun or "kill the logi" first. And I absolutely agree. My few rep tool suits all wind up repping any nearby blueberries because I like cannon fodder. Commandos are never expected to be reppers. I tend to rep the logis first. Lol,you obviously have never seen me in a match. Vs a HMG as long as my ally isn't completely brain dead,i can keep any suit alive,even cal scouts with 0 plates. And since assaults have more armor now,logistics can easily rep them through heavy barrages...when they finally catch up to them. Just ask Zindorak,i kept him alive vs a sent so long he had time to kill him with a SMG. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7072	Posted - 2014.09.15 06:22:00 - [68] - Quote Guys, thanks, we needed to nerf it but will keep monitoring the situation. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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