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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4217
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been using the Burst HMG since Charlie and I published my evaluation in this thread.
I think the key goal in tweaking the Burst HMG should be to insure that it takes more than a single burst to the body to kill a medium frame suit with any sort of tank fitted. (Use a Minmatar with 1 basic shield extender as your ruler.) To one burst kill a Medium Frame should require a head shot. (One burst killing Scouts is fine, because it is so dam hard to land that one burst.)
The reason this is important is that the pause between bursts gives the target a small window to react and save themselves. Adding the pause to the burst extends the Time To Kill, and prevents the target from feeling completely helpless.
I think the 10% damage nerf would probably achieve that objective.
Increasing rate of fire during the burst and increasing the time between bursts will mean more damage is applied during the initial burst, which would give it more potential to one burst kill lightly tanked suits. This is counterproductive to the objective I stated above.
Edit: I misread initially. So, the fire rate during the burst will be doubled, but the same amount of rounds will be fired as before, making the burst duration half as long? But due to lengthening the pause, both the time and the number of rounds fired before the second burst (including first burst and first pause) will be the same as before?
I am hesitant about changing rate of fire, burst duration, and overheat. The Burst HMG GÇ£feelsGÇ¥ right at the moment. I am very experienced with it, yet I still overheat multiple times in a match, often in the middle of fire fights. It really feels like it is on a knife edge of effectiveness. It is definitely effective right now, but it feels like a vary small change could break it.
So, I am fine with the 10% nerf to damage, but I would prefer to leave it at that for Delta, and then look at it again in Echo.
For Reference, The current numbers:
6 continuous bursts will overheat an Advanced Burst HMG.
7 continuous bursts will overheat a Prototype Burst HMG.
10 bursts will empty the clip of any Burst HMG.
35 bursts will use up all ammo reserves on any Burst HMG. (Probably varies with Ammo Skill)
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4217
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Will test before commenting. I'm not seeing anything that'll make the weapon subpar. Just less instablap. I'm slightly worried that the increase in fire rate will mean that some people that previously managed to dodge part of a burst will now be completely hit, so I would like to hear how many people have had that happen or it's already so fast that it's not a factor right now. On the other hand, with this change the actual damage per burst is going down so there might be some people that should just survive that didn't before.
Partial hits are a factor currently, but the longer pause between bursts would be just as big a survival factor as partial hits are now. That is, the amount of times people in Delta will be able to survive due to being able to move during pauses should be at least as high as the amount of people in Charlie that survived due to avoiding part of the burst.
Also this:
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:It's much more noticeable when you miss part of a burst when you're actually firing the weapon - it's very difficult to tell how much of the burst you took when you're on the receiving end.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4219
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
A little off topic, but could we also get a Breach variant that fires a large (high damage) rounds with a Rate of Fire of one round every 0.6 seconds? No dispersion. Maybe with the range of an Assault HMG?
It would give us an HMG which might actually be effective in Manis Peak Domination.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4219
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:I think a range nerf is also reasonable to consider. Maybe optimal out to 15m and falloff to 25. Beyond that you'd do very little damage. This would make the burst HMG kind of like a shotgun on steroids. Just a thought. It may be a bad idea.
Or we could give it the range of the Standard HMG prior to Charlie.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4220
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Posted - 2014.09.11 18:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Actually I misunderstood the burst/fire interval change, so yes 30-50% was maybe an overestimate. Still, it would be a 10% damage nerf and you'd fire around 15% fewer shots before overheat, so that still adds up to a pretty massive nerf.
I agree with Ryme.
The last partial Burst should not be considered as applying damage. The last Burst is usually that extra burst that goes off after you take your finger off the trigger. So if the Burst HMG overheats one burst sooner, it means you have to take your finger off the trigger one Burst sooner. That is effectively a 17% nerf to the Advanced Burst HMG and a 14% nerf to the Proto Burst HMG in most encounters.
So, with the 10% damage nerf that would be a 27% nerf to the Advanced Burst HMG and a 24% nerf to the Proto Burst HMG in most encounters.
I say most encounters because under current conditions I have to watch my heat even in 1v1 encounters if my target is strafing. As people are learning to strafe against the Burst I am finding I am overheating in 1v1 encounters more often. In multi target encounters heat management is always an issue, and I am regularly having to duck behind cover mid engagement either due to overheat, or to stop firing for a second to avoid overheat. Reducing the number of bursts before overheat, reduces the Damage you can apply in an engagement. Due to the high rate of fire you can consider each burst as one packet of damage.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4220
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Posted - 2014.09.11 18:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:You do know that the rate of fire that each burst has will go from 6000 to 12000? Basically you are going to fire your burst rounds twice as fast. Which means you line up the target, press R1 and "PFFFT" hes dead with less then half a second. Its going to be instant death for mediums and scouts. hell its going to feel like if you fired a burst from the combat rifle.
Dark cloud, you misread.
The overall Rate of fire and the rounds per burst are not changing. What is changing is that the same number of rounds in a burst (same damage per burst) is being fired in half the time, but the pause between bursts is being extended so that the time between the start of the first burst and the start of the second burst will be the same as before. So the same damage per burst, and the same burst interval, it is just that the burst part of that interval is shorter and the pause part is longer.
Then on top of that they are nerfing damage by 10% and nerfing heat.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4220
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Posted - 2014.09.11 19:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:After some testing last night and feedback from you guys, we're going to drop the Fire Interval/Burst Interval change for now (this means that the heat per second will also drop by about half, but it will still be the same number of rounds to overheat).
Now that I have rapped my head around it, I am not against your Fire Interval/Burst Interval change.
I am not against a 10% damage nerf. (I don't like you nerfing my baby, but I agree it is needed.)
I donGÇÖt like the idea of additional heat buildup. I believe that one less available burst will translate into an additional damage nerf in most encounters.
CCP Logibro wrote:We've also been playing with the dispersion a bit, mostly around increasing the max dispersion and min dispersion, and decreasing the accuracy gain per shot. I know several people have called for the range to be decreased, but I would prefer to try and make it work via dispersion or possibly kick instead rather than just straight nerfing range. Swapping from inverse to normal dispersion is on the table for the burst, but it does mean that it doesn't behave consistently with one of the defining traits of the HMG which makes me a little apprehensive about it.
By reversing the dispersion mechanic for the Burst HMG you would have to GÇ£burstGÇ¥ it to maintain accuracy. Since the Burst HMG is not a spray and prey weapon, having the first burst be more accurate than subsequent bursts makes sense. I think having increasing dispersion for the Burst HMG makes sense intuitively. The fundamental principles underlying the Burst HMG are different than those of the Standard HMG. Burst is about precisely placed bursts, while the standard HMG is about sustained fire.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4220
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Posted - 2014.09.11 19:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Actually reversing the dispersion pattern from a normal HMG might be good. It can't start as loose as the regular one or it's not going to be worth anything beyond shotgun range. But decreasing efficiency in favor of alpha seems fair sa a tradeoff.
By reversing the dispersion pattern I am fairly sure he is suggesting that it would start with less dispersion and gain more dispersion the longer you hold down the trigger.
Currently the dispersion is higher when you first pull the trigger, and as you hold it down the HMG becomes more accurate. That is why the circle radical gets smaller.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4221
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Posted - 2014.09.11 19:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
To be more concise:
A 10% nerf is fine.
A 10% nerf + overheating one burst sooner = Flaylock Pistol level nerf.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4226
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Posted - 2014.09.12 12:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Actually reversing the dispersion pattern from a normal HMG might be good. It can't start as loose as the regular one or it's not going to be worth anything beyond shotgun range. But decreasing efficiency in favor of alpha seems fair sa a tradeoff. By reversing the dispersion pattern I am fairly sure he is suggesting that it would start with less dispersion and gain more dispersion the longer you hold down the trigger. Currently the dispersion is higher when you first pull the trigger, and as you hold it down the HMG becomes more accurate. That is why the circle radical gets smaller. You just said what I did in lockstep with my statement. I dunno if you're trying to agree with me, but if you're correcting me you might wanna wipe the egg off your face.
Yeah, it looks like I misread your post. I had been on the thread for a while and I was probably loosing focus. Usually I have much better reading comprehension, but this is the second time I misread something in this thread.
I apologize. 
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4226
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Posted - 2014.09.12 12:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:Did some testing with the Advanced burst HMG. Currently it overheats after 266 rounds fired (6 bursts). every decent player avoids firing the 6 bursts in a row due to the overheat and vulnerbable effect it has onto you. To put this in perspective you can fire 225 rounds without overheating (5 bursts). So if the HMG will overheat in around 40 rounds sooner not much will change. Why? Simply cause 266-40=226. You will be aible to fire 226 rounds without overheating the HMG which means 5 bursts without overheat and the 6th will only contain 1 bullet and the thing starts jam up.
If this is true, that with the heat change there will still be 1 round before overheat after the 5th burst is fired, then I agree, the heat change will not have any significant effect.
As I was saying earlier, it is better to measure in Bursts rather than rounds, because it does not make much difference how many rounds are in the overheat burst.
Actually, since heat takes a while to dissipate, if you have two engagements one after the other, you may overheat on the 4th or 5th burst in the second engagement, so heat changes might have more effect in that situation, but still that is not common enough to make a big difference.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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