1. Don't listen to Atiim at all.

Though the first part of #2 is indeed a problem, you can always hear a KDS coming, and they move so slow that evading them is of no real issue. Most ADS pilots are smart enough to not stand still anyways, so I fail to see why your having problems.

As for #3, the knockback effect of the ADV and PRO Swarm Launchers were already nerfed when the missiles per volley were reduced from 6 to 4.

If the knockback was nerfed any further, you'd have a situation where the Pilot would have the advantage in a 1v1 due to the fact that he'll get the first shot, as the SL will still be locking. You can already 3HK a MinCom (which is like nothing if you spec into ADS Operation and Caldari ADS Operation).

To #4, I support a price reduction of ADSs; and #5 is a given.


At least my balance ideals aren't hypocritical, unlike many of the ADS pilots here.

You are bad at AV if you can't stay alive in an MinCom. You have 175m lock on, you have over 95m before we actually see you (If swarms sow) and when they don't, the swarmer is completely invisible until you get into 30m range. By the time I get close to you, you should have been locking on with your third volley or have scared me away.

Also, you actually can't hear other DS coming because the noise of your own dropship. There have been times when I have hit the AB when I though I herd something and it turned out to be my own ADS's noise. Any way, this ADS ramming shouldn't exist period. Infantry don't have to worry about insta dying when bumping into another merc so why do ADS pilots?

Shield Collision is also a big problem. I take thousands of damage from a 5m drop to the ground "landing gear does nothing". The ground gravity thing sucks too. It's like you get super glued to the ground and are trying to break free. There have been many times where I had to take a minute or two just trying to get out of the supply depot area and many times wher I have flipped over tying to take off. Luckily I had a booster to save my DS.

Alot of people don't respect the difficulty of flying an ADS while trying to get kills, it's easy to tell an real pilot from someone thinking their ease mode...normally their crashing and burning..before I pulled my trigger

You are bad at AV if you can't stay alive in an MinCom. You have 175m lock on, you have over 95m before we actually see you (If swarms sow) and when they don't, the swarmer is completely invisible until you get into 30m range. By the time I get close to you, you should have been locking on with your third volley or have scared me away.

Also, you actually can't hear other DS coming because the noise of your own dropship. There have been times when I have hit the AB when I though I herd something and it turned out to be my own ADS's noise. Any way, this ADS ramming shouldn't exist period. Infantry don't have to worry about insta dying when bumping into another merc so why do ADS pilots?

Shield Collision is also a big problem. I take thousands of damage from a 5m drop to the ground "landing gear does nothing". The ground gravity thing sucks too. It's like you get super glued to the ground and are trying to break free. There have been many times where I had to take a minute or two just trying to get out of the supply depot area and many times wher I have flipped over tying to take off. Luckily I had a booster to save my DS.

You are bad at AV if you can't stay alive in an MinCom. You have 175m lock on, you have over 95m before we actually see you (If swarms sow) and when they don't, the swarmer is completely invisible until you get into 30m range. By the time I get close to you, you should have been locking on with your third volley or have scared me away.

Also, you actually can't hear other DS coming because the noise of your own dropship. There have been times when I have hit the AB when I though I herd something and it turned out to be my own ADS's noise. Any way, this ADS ramming shouldn't exist period. Infantry don't have to worry about insta dying when bumping into another merc so why do ADS pilots?

Shield Collision is also a big problem. I take thousands of damage from a 5m drop to the ground "landing gear does nothing". The ground gravity thing sucks too. It's like you get super glued to the ground and are trying to break free. There have been many times where I had to take a minute or two just trying to get out of the supply depot area and many times wher I have flipped over tying to take off. Luckily I had a booster to save my DS.

1. Don't listen to Atiim at all.



2. Fix shield collison on shields damage and dropships ramming
3. Reduce the physical effect of swarms (knocking ADS around like a fly)
3. You can buff swarms but reduce my ADS hull to 100k isk and reduce proto small turret price to 47k isk.
4. go through with your swarm buffs.

Though the first part of #2 is indeed a problem, you can always hear a KDS coming, and they move so slow that evading them is of no real issue. Most ADS pilots are smart enough to not stand still anyways, so I fail to see why your having problems.

As for #3, the knockback effect of the ADV and PRO Swarm Launchers were already nerfed when the missiles per volley were reduced from 6 to 4.

If the knockback was nerfed any further, you'd have a situation where the Pilot would have the advantage in a 1v1 due to the fact that he'll get the first shot, as the SL will still be locking. You can already 3HK a MinCom (which is like nothing if you spec into ADS Operation and Caldari ADS Operation).

To #4, I support a price reduction of ADSs; and #5 is a given.


At least my balance ideals aren't hypocritical, unlike many of the ADS pilots here.

3a. It was reduced in Charlie when they removed the extra missiles from ADV and PRO swarms. Sure they knock you around a bit bit it isn't that bad.

You are bad at AV if you can't stay alive in an MinCom. You have 175m lock on, you have over 95m before we actually see you (If swarms sow) and when they don't, the swarmer is completely invisible until you get into 30m range. By the time I get close to you, you should have been locking on with your third volley or have scared me away.

Also, you actually can't hear other DS coming because the noise of your own dropship. There have been times when I have hit the AB when I though I herd something and it turned out to be my own ADS's noise. Any way, this ADS ramming shouldn't exist period. Infantry don't have to worry about insta dying when bumping into another merc so why do ADS pilots?

Shield Collision is also a big problem. I take thousands of damage from a 5m drop to the ground "landing gear does nothing". The ground gravity thing sucks too. It's like you get super glued to the ground and are trying to break free. There have been many times where I had to take a minute or two just trying to get out of the supply depot area and many times wher I have flipped over tying to take off. Luckily I had a booster to save my DS.

ADS vs swarms is about an even match. You have trouble seeing me and I can't compensate for your speed and regen ability, but the advantage ALWAYS lies with the ADS because they can choose whether to engage or not, the option always remains to simply disengage. The swarmer does not have that option, even when they are dealing with infantry and would like to disengage.

ADS ramming I don't like but LAV's blowup when they brush tanks so it is not exclusive to the ADS.

Prices drops are needed and collision damage needs fixing, I don't see much argument regarding those two.

They still sometimes knock me 90 degrees vertical. If there is any structures or terrain within 150m or so behind me that means I'm dead. Or if I'm not 30m+ above the ground, I'm dead. And at the very least they always knock my aim off by rotating my ADS 15-35 degrees in some direction on average.
But I don't see that as such a big problem, more of a problem is that I can't tell if I'm being shot at by MLT or PRO swarms, I have no idea if I wanna stand and fight or flee assuming I can render the swarms in the first place.

you're happy with them reducing the price 70k? Really? They are cutting the surviveability be Half. ADS in delta fully fitted is going to cost 430k instead of 500k. Swarms will always hit you because now you can't run away. You can't engage enemy without the AB ready to fire because they're going to stupidly make the recharge time like 30 seconds because CCP sucks at balancing.

1. Don't listen to Atiim at all.



2. Fix shield collison on shields damage and dropships ramming
3. Reduce the physical effect of swarms (knocking ADS around like a fly)
3. You can buff swarms but reduce my ADS hull to 100k isk and reduce proto small turret price to 47k isk.
4. go through with your swarm buffs.

They still sometimes knock me 90 degrees vertical. If there is any structures or terrain within 150m or so behind me that means I'm dead. Or if I'm not 30m+ above the ground, I'm dead. And at the very least they always knock my aim off by rotating my ADS 15-35 degrees in some direction on average.
But I don't see that as such a big problem, more of a problem is that I can't tell if I'm being shot at by MLT or PRO swarms, I have no idea if I wanna stand and fight or flee assuming I can render the swarms in the first place.

I believe that there is one major factor that is making the balance between the ads v av difficult that is the solo pilots (I'm not trying to hate on them just basing this from what I've seen)
Think about it and take a close look at why I believe this. One of the main reasons that av calls for buffs is because taking down the ads is difficult for multiple reasons however the only dropships that can really take a beating and escape nearly every time are the solo ones
this is so because by not putting the extra gunners they have a surplus of pg and cpu which allows them to tank more hp.
And so in return this really screws over the pilots who have three turrets or wish to use support modules such as the mcru because they are unable to have as much hp as the solo pilots leaving them to be taken out with a lot more ease.
This here is ultimately why it is difficult to balance it, if the ads gets a buff the triple turret ads gets some more breathing room against av but the solo pilots then become even more difficult to take out.
Although if the av is buffed then the solo pilots are no longer invincible but causes the triple turret ads to be paper thin against av.

Ok, you are right about the shield collision and gravity problems, but the whole i cant see you argument is not strictly true all the time. I have been it by a small rail from over 80m away so lets not say i cant see you until im 30m away cos it is a lie. Also why should physics not affect you because you are in a dropship? If a dropship hits you at full speed you should get blown up, same way lavs blow up if they go full speed into another lav.

I do not understand.

1. You'll still be able to get away from any single Swarmer. He can't kill you in three volleys. Why would you hang around while he reloads?

2. You should've always been vulnerable to focused fire from two or more Swarmers. Every other unit in the game can be overwhelmed by teamwork; do you think you deserve to be treated differently?

3. By what means have you determined that your "survivability will be reduced by half"?

@ Swarmer Ignorance
When I fit my CalScout for recon, I don't attempt to slay. I'm may pick off a target of opportunity here or there, but I'm generally best off managing risks away from the fray.

@ Skill-less Swarms
I'm of the opinion that all weapons should be viable, whether or not I like how they were designed. Dumb fire swarms would be great, but it's not happening; not a valid excuse to ignore swarm underperformance.

@ CCP is bad at balance
Wolfman, perhaps. Rattati, clearly not.

"he can't kill me you in 3 swarms" This is a perfect example of swarmer ignorance. You're example here only apply to the most tanked of ADS's. What If I want to run a scanner instead of a all shield extenders? Why must ADS pilots be forced to tank to survive? Every ADS fit currently is HP extenders (Armor repairs on Incubus) and AB coupled with complex pg on all ADS's. If you want side gunners you have to throw away everything just to fit two missile or rail turrets.

"Survivability cut in half" is because now AB won't do sh*t, Lock and shoot skill less swarms will always hit unless they have like a 30 degree turn radius. Also, AB will now probably take 30-40 seconds to recharge because CCP is bad at balancing.

Because if you fit you're vehicle as a Glass object, you should die as easily as a glass object?

HP Modules and Hardeners are meant to increase the survivability of a vehicle, and if you want survivability you should be forced to fit them. If AV was balanced around base eHP, then it'd be underpowered when someone does decide to fit for max survivability.

In the same sense, that if AV was balanced around base DPS, it'd be overpowered when someone stacks damage modifiers for max DPS. Every module increases how efficient something is at a certain role. If you want to be efficient in something, then use the module.

Honestly, the notion of not wanting to fit HP modules to survive is so stupid that even I have difficulty believing that someone said it. Though if you're willing to allow Medium Frames to survive an entire clip of XT-1s without putting on HP modules, I'd be happy to conform to your "balance ideal".


The only time a Swarm Launcher doesn't take skill is when you're fighting parked LAV or terri-bads. When fighting competent players, you have to fire and position your swarms in multiple ways, which is much harder (and more time consuming) than simply leading your target with a FG.

Though I fail to see how a 30s cooldown would be broken. You can evade the area, but you'll have to either find another engagement or return to the engagement and risk getting destroyed. This is called, a "wave of opportunity", which is CCP's design philosophy with vehicles.