Assault Dropships will be dealt with in Hotfix Bravo.

Keep your head high 'till then my friend.

Are we time traveling?

Atiim is magical.

It's fcking ridiculous that a small missile turret can kill a sentinel in the time it takes the regular FG to charge a single shot

Also: Ishukone Assault Forge Gun > everything else

What suit you running that does this? I can survive several blasts.

Also: Ishukone Assault Forge Gun > everything else

If you're using the regular forge you're doing it wrong.

Assault Dropships will be dealt with in Hotfix Delta

Keep your head high 'till then my friend.

There's nothing to be dealt with. The balance is fine.

Want to fend off an ADS? Use AV. Don't expect a single AVer to reliable kill an ADS.
Then why would I even bother using AV if he's guaranteed to escape?

Want to reliably kill an ADS? Use teamwork, it's OP.

Imagine if a single AVer could easily kill ADSs. Now add another, and another. That would make AV completely OP. (And before you counter, multiple ADSs are usually more of a threat to themselves and a hinderance to their team than compounding their effectiveness).
This paragraph right here is extremely biased.

First off, you can't use 2/3v1 scenarios when balancing an item, because it assumes that there will always be a single unit against 2/3 of it's counters, which is unrealistic. Not only that, but requiring more resources than what you've fieldied (1 player) to destroy another player automatically makes that item superior, thus negating the point of using the other item.

Basically, why would I use Y if 1x GëÑ 2y? Though what you said about multipule ADSs is not false (to an extent). 2 ADSs can easily destroy an entire team if they're good, and in open areas (which is a good amount of the maps in DUST) they're in no way a hinderance to anyone other than the enemy team.

Multiple AV units on the other hand, reduce the Anti-Infantry capabilities of your team, as well as the ability to hack/push objectives; all of which are deciding factors in whether or not a team will win the match.

Take forges for example: a single skilled forge gunner can easily down virtually any ADS within one clip (or about 7.5 seconds). Now, with some fancy flying and a bit of luck, I can usually take one forge myself, but add another and it's far more difficult.
[i]And any ADS with an Afterburner can easily escape before 7.2s (Incubi in 4s, Pythons in 2.6s). Honestly if you're dumb enough to stand there for 7.5s you deserve to die

The only rebalance I would accept as fair would be an increase in AB cool down time from 10/10/10sec to 25/20/15sec.
So basically a 5s increase in the Afterburner? That's won't suffice.

meh, It only takes 2 full round of my proto swarms to kill an ads. Most of the time i ll have help, so will kill shoot one full round before he can hit the burners.

meh, It only takes 2 full round of my proto swarms to kill an ads. Most of the time i ll have help, so will kill shoot one full round before he can hit the burners.

I use the Amarr, I use mostly reps on it to keep it light so it's easier to avoid direct hits as well as to rep up quickly so I'm not just a sitting duck with low health; AV with extremely poor mobility dies quicker than AV with just poor mobility. I do use the IAFG but that's irrelevant to the point that small missiles can kill a sentinel in the time it takes for the regular FG to charge. Some people don't like the AFG and I don't blame them; getting the timing right on an evasive ADS can be quite hard with the AFG.

You and I both know that your ADSs will be getting nerfed in Delta, so I'd get in as much fun as you still can.

I use the Amarr, I use mostly reps on it to keep it light so it's easier to avoid direct hits as well as to rep up quickly so I'm not just a sitting duck with low health; AV with extremely poor mobility dies quicker than AV with just poor mobility. I do use the IAFG but that's irrelevant to the point that small missiles can kill a sentinel in the time it takes for the regular FG to charge. Some people don't like the AFG and I don't blame them; getting the timing right on an evasive ADS can be quite hard with the AFG.

First off, let's explain everything wrong with using an Amarrican suit as a forge.

It is armor based, so it's only natural I'm going to have my way with you as a rocket ADS.

Second, I specced at least 15-20 mil SP into this, that includes ROF, which I skilled into wholeheartedly.

Third, some pilots miss, you have to put into account some people are just good at what they do.

Forth, it takes six to eight shots average to kill a sentinel. I don't see what you're complaining about.

Fifth, ADS pilots are supposed to use evasion tactics, most novice pilots sit there and hover when fighting AV and that is the dumbest mistake you could make. If flying about like a drunk hillbilly causes you to miss a few shots yourself, but causes him to miss a few, then so be it.

ADS appears dominate

Just reading now, first fallacy: we do not have infinite ammo, haven't for a long time. We may have a lot, but, that requires a decent chunk of SP (about 3.5 mil just on the two skills, not including the pre-req skills).

Using Militia Swarms to kill an ADS.. That's on you dude. You're handicapping yourself, at least get Basic, its super cheap.

"Oh look, an ADS pilot defending his crutch," you may be saying to yourself.

I have Prof. 4 Swarms, Auxillary Swarm skills to 4, Minmando to 5, Prof 3 Forge, I'm pretty big into AV, more points into it than my ADS (well, probably not anymore).

Swarms are actually very good against ADSs if you approach the fight correctly. Also, Swarms still have horrible rendering. I'll shoot swarms, but my buddies standing right next to me won't see my Swarms flying. When I fly, I'd say only about half the swarms that hit me render at all. That's just a random guess, I haven't been keeping track of rendering/non-rendering swarms as of late...

Using Amarr to forge is your first mistake. Caldari is where it's at.

If you land the first shot it will knock the ADS around giving you time to land the second shot before he can adjust to hit you again. I rarely lose 1v1 encounters to an ADS unless I miss that first shot.

If you're having trouble hitting them with the AFG the only thing I can tell you is practice makes perfect.

When I skilled into it Amarr was the half-way between AV and AI. It still works well enough and I've got other SP priorities besides completely skilling into a new dropsuit tree. Talk all the smack you want to (it's about all KeQ is good for) but if you think it's easy to hit evasive ADS' with the AFG then you haven't shot at an evasive ADS. I've been doing this for about a year now so don't talk to me about practice.

Still all of what you said is irrelevant to the point I made. If you're not going to address the point I made then why are you even arguing with me?

Want to fend off an ADS? Use AV. Don't expect a single AVer to reliable kill an ADS.

Want to reliably kill an ADS? Use teamwork, it's OP.

That's some straight up "Teamwork for thee but not for me" bullsh!t. I can admit it was a realistic view for tanks when they used it but it didn't work for game balance; for aircraft however, it just flat out doesn't work. Nothing in this game should require teamwork to reliably kill one person, least of all aircraft.

Whatever, I'm not going to argue with you when can't even comprehend what I said.

At least in almost every match I see it deployed.
I am not asking for any kind of nerf ( nerfing has been ruining this game)
but I'd like to add suggestions to improve some gameplay if possible.

I didn't spec into one but it looks like Pilots have infinite ammo of a one shot splash damage weapon that can just hover over anything and kill it.
Maybe changing that is all that is needed? A limited ammo count for Missles and Rails? ( This should include those annoying missle tanks)
Having infinite ammo just seems like lazy game design, it makes no sense in this game

We have two options to deal with them forge guns and Swarms correct?
My beef is mainly with Swarms as Forge gunners could probably use a bit more range but are generally decent AV

& before you say swarms - they are terrible.
Waiting for a lock while this thing is either shooting at me or flying around too fast or high up to even get a lock? And they don't do enough damage anyway, I have to hit an ADS two or three times just to get it to retreat. Yes I am using mil swarms but I have three damg mods on this fit 2 complex, 1 enhanced.

Lock on range should be vastly increased...orrrrr (wait for it) why not have the option to lock on AND fire manually?

& yes if we have multiple clones with swarms you MAY be able to kill one. To this I say so I need two or three guys with AV not attacking and not capturing points to deal with one vehicle? I supposed the answer is " Yes that's the way you kill a dropship" but it just seem a boring way to play which is why you don't see many squads doing it. The alternative is perhaps just using a Commando fit but that seems too limiting.

I would suggest allowing swarms to be a sidearm weapon or a sidearm AV variant.

The best way to deal with one it seems is to have an Assault Dropship yourself. This is just seems counter-intuitive to the game. Why should I grind 2mil SP just to kill one guy/dropship?
Instead of grinding for two+ months we need Militia Assault dropships. It takes actual skill to pilot a dropship well. It takes no skill to shoot a missle somewhere near a player to kill them.
Give everyone to option to have this weapon....or are you afraid that because it is so grossly imbalanced that this will ruin the game?

That's it.
I see ADS dominating matches. It used to be tanks ( still kinda is) but it looks like the people that got sick of tanks being dominant spec'd into ADS to kill them. Now they are killing everything and with all this kool technology in the EVE universe it is kinda embarrassing that there are still only two mediocre AV options.

At least in almost every match I see it deployed.
I am not asking for any kind of nerf ( nerfing has been ruining this game)
but I'd like to add suggestions to improve some gameplay if possible.

I didn't spec into one but it looks like Pilots have infinite ammo of a one shot splash damage weapon that can just hover over anything and kill it.
Maybe changing that is all that is needed? A limited ammo count for Missles and Rails? ( This should include those annoying missle tanks)
Having infinite ammo just seems like lazy game design, it makes no sense in this game

We have two options to deal with them forge guns and Swarms correct?
My beef is mainly with Swarms as Forge gunners could probably use a bit more range but are generally decent AV

& before you say swarms - they are terrible.
Waiting for a lock while this thing is either shooting at me or flying around too fast or high up to even get a lock? And they don't do enough damage anyway, I have to hit an ADS two or three times just to get it to retreat. Yes I am using mil swarms but I have three damg mods on this fit 2 complex, 1 enhanced.

Lock on range should be vastly increased...orrrrr (wait for it) why not have the option to lock on AND fire manually?

& yes if we have multiple clones with swarms you MAY be able to kill one. To this I say so I need two or three guys with AV not attacking and not capturing points to deal with one vehicle? I supposed the answer is " Yes that's the way you kill a dropship" but it just seem a boring way to play which is why you don't see many squads doing it. The alternative is perhaps just using a Commando fit but that seems too limiting.

I would suggest allowing swarms to be a sidearm weapon or a sidearm AV variant.

The best way to deal with one it seems is to have an Assault Dropship yourself. This is just seems counter-intuitive to the game. Why should I grind 2mil SP just to kill one guy/dropship?
Instead of grinding for two+ months we need Militia Assault dropships. It takes actual skill to pilot a dropship well. It takes no skill to shoot a missle somewhere near a player to kill them.
Give everyone to option to have this weapon....or are you afraid that because it is so grossly imbalanced that this will ruin the game?

That's it.
I see ADS dominating matches. It used to be tanks ( still kinda is) but it looks like the people that got sick of tanks being dominant spec'd into ADS to kill them. Now they are killing everything and with all this kool technology in the EVE universe it is kinda embarrassing that there are still only two mediocre AV options.

lower the ceiling, ads should not be allowed to use that as a means to grief as they do now.

meh, It only takes 2 full round of my proto swarms to kill an ads. Most of the time i ll have help, so will kill shoot one full round before he can hit the burners.

i call bull on your 2 rounds of proto swarms to kill an ADS - make most retreat maybe but to kill BS. i don't think you can get much more swarm damage than minimando 5 with 2 complex damage mods and proto swarms profficency 4 and i have never killed a an ADS with 2 launches.

if its a badly fit

incubus 3 rounds

python 4 rounds.

normal

incubus 4 rounds

python 4-5 rounds.

Is this with or without the hardener up?

At least in almost every match I see it deployed.
I am not asking for any kind of nerf ( nerfing has been ruining this game)
but I'd like to add suggestions to improve some gameplay if possible.

I didn't spec into one but it looks like Pilots have infinite ammo of a one shot splash damage weapon that can just hover over anything and kill it.
Maybe changing that is all that is needed? A limited ammo count for Missles and Rails? ( This should include those annoying missle tanks)
Having infinite ammo just seems like lazy game design, it makes no sense in this game

We have two options to deal with them forge guns and Swarms correct?
My beef is mainly with Swarms as Forge gunners could probably use a bit more range but are generally decent AV

& before you say swarms - they are terrible.
Waiting for a lock while this thing is either shooting at me or flying around too fast or high up to even get a lock? And they don't do enough damage anyway, I have to hit an ADS two or three times just to get it to retreat. Yes I am using mil swarms but I have three damg mods on this fit 2 complex, 1 enhanced.

Lock on range should be vastly increased...orrrrr (wait for it) why not have the option to lock on AND fire manually?

& yes if we have multiple clones with swarms you MAY be able to kill one. To this I say so I need two or three guys with AV not attacking and not capturing points to deal with one vehicle? I supposed the answer is " Yes that's the way you kill a dropship" but it just seem a boring way to play which is why you don't see many squads doing it. The alternative is perhaps just using a Commando fit but that seems too limiting.

I would suggest allowing swarms to be a sidearm weapon or a sidearm AV variant.

The best way to deal with one it seems is to have an Assault Dropship yourself. This is just seems counter-intuitive to the game. Why should I grind 2mil SP just to kill one guy/dropship?
Instead of grinding for two+ months we need Militia Assault dropships. It takes actual skill to pilot a dropship well. It takes no skill to shoot a missle somewhere near a player to kill them.
Give everyone to option to have this weapon....or are you afraid that because it is so grossly imbalanced that this will ruin the game?

That's it.
I see ADS dominating matches. It used to be tanks ( still kinda is) but it looks like the people that got sick of tanks being dominant spec'd into ADS to kill them. Now they are killing everything and with all this kool technology in the EVE universe it is kinda embarrassing that there are still only two mediocre AV options.

Nerf it.....so much simpler. ADS is out of control

Talk all the smack you want to (it's about all KeQ is good for) but if you think it's easy to hit evasive ADS' with the AFG then you haven't shot at an evasive ADS. I've been doing this for about a year now so don't talk to me about practice.

ok i was a bit off but there are the numbers under ideal conditions which the battlefield is not always. if you put into consideration that any piliot will have a good amount of time to flee before the 4th shot that makes it unlikely to die

I think Forge vs ADS is probably as balanced as it's ever been. As in I can't manage to solo kill a good ADS pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez, but at the same time I can pester them long enough to keep them out of commission for a while. I don't think I've ever really been troubled by them shooting back at me. In fact, it makes it a lot easier to hit them.

My only issue with ADSs right now is how incredibly fast they can get out of max range of the FG. It's one thing to be fast and maneuverable to dodge shots, which I'm all for, it's another thing for them to be out of max range by flying to the ceiling in like 2 seconds flat.

The other issue is that most blueberries have no idea how to counter them, which I can totally understand. I mean, I have all my Forge Gun skills maxed out using a Sentintel ck.0 with 2x Complex Damage mods and it's incredibly hard for me to kill one even if I land all my shots. It takes about 3 consecutive shots for me to kill a Python and that's counting on them not using any hardeners or rechargers. In theory that sounds easy but with how fast ADS are nowadays it's pretty tough since any pilot with half a brain will look to get out as soon as that first shot hits. I can't even imagine some blueberry trying to use some AV he's not skilled into trying to take down an ADS. It's pretty much like ringing a dinner bell.

And as a side note, I respect any skilled ADS pilot 100x more now that I put some points into them and tried to see what the fuss is about. Maybe it's the fact that I use M / KB but I don't think I managed to hit a single shot using a STD Missile Launcher on a Python. The aiming system on the ADS is probably the most unintuitive piece of crap I've ever experienced.