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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
814
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Posted - 2014.09.02 22:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
This video is also posted in the F&D under the Scrambler sticky post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be
YouTube
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Tectonic Fusion
2127
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Posted - 2014.09.02 22:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why would you even make this? ScR > TAR it's been this way since the TAR was nerfed.
(GIF)
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
814
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Posted - 2014.09.02 22:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:Why would you even make this? ScR > TAR it's been this way since the TAR was nerfed.
To show why.
YouTube
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Rusty Shallows
Caldari State
2079
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
You sound way different on Comms.
Likes are my candy and in these forums every day is Halloween. XD
Sweets for everyone!
Forums > Game
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
814
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Posted - 2014.09.02 23:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:You sound way different on Comms.
Comms in game bring out my Cajun rage.
YouTube
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
380
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Posted - 2014.09.02 23:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Here's to fixing that Tac AR in the next hotfix... More range would do nicely, hate when a rail rifle can spray more damage on my body than I can pop on their head. |
BlazeXYZ
xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
189
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Posted - 2014.09.02 23:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:This video is also posted in the F&D under the Scrambler sticky post. Things covered in this comentary video: -Stats, Cost, and Skill of the TAC vs the SCR. -TAC in action showing it shining in Optimal and falling on it's ass in <30 meters (Some slowmo comparison) -SCR in action showing it shining in all ranges (Also with slow motion comparison) -Outside of game video showing both riflers firing at a near consistent 480 rounds per min using a metronome set at 120bpm with 16th note subdivisions -Slow motion of the TAC misfiring while well under 500 RPM (Bug?) and what I fear would happen if the ROF gets lowered to much on the SCR -EXTREME dispersion difference in both hip fire and ADS between the two (side by side using a commando firing at a wall) -A bad ass drummer in the background. (seriously, this dude is remarkable) And for all those claiming that more than 6 trigger pulls per second controlled is not possible, wtf is wrong with you? Eat some Wheaties or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be
I agree on changing the scope on TAR.
The Blazing Intellect Machine
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CommanderBolt
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
1460
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Posted - 2014.09.02 23:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
The scope on he Tac AR is pretty bad but I could deal with it if the weapon performed. It is funny how one of the DMR type weapons in this game is outperformed in both range and many other factors by weapons like the RR which is a full auto....
-=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=-
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
"I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
4710
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Posted - 2014.09.02 23:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Excellent video.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Joel II X
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3246
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Does this mean you'll be doing one for the Burst AR v CR? |
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
817
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Does this mean you'll be doing one for the Burst AR v CR?
I'd have to use them quite a bit first. I do use the CR, but I've never been a fan of the burst AR, haven't tried it since it was a 6 round burst weapon. The TAC was my favorite back when we used to have TV cameras instead of scopes.
YouTube
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xavier zor
King and Queens Peacekeepers of High-Sec
29
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
The scrambler rifle is to over powered. They need to nerf it
Tactical Assault Rifle's for life
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
852
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Posted - 2014.09.03 06:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Excellent video, deserves way more attention that it got.
O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
213
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Posted - 2014.09.03 07:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Great video, again.
The only thing that I think was missed is the fitting requirements. To me, the huge pg cost of the scrambler (particularly adv and pro) is a major balancing factor. I don't often hear people mention it.
Still, the scrambler is a great weapon. If it needs a nerf it shouldn't be by much. |
Kin Cat
Another Clone in the Wall
10
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Posted - 2014.09.03 10:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
i'd be much more interested to see if the Flaylock is better or something
for christ sake the TAR is the worst weapon in the game |
Shiyou Hidiyoshi
Ancient Exiles.
904
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 10:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
The SCR is a long range weapon right?
If so, then I why does it have 80% efficiency minimum in the video at close range... did I read it wrong or something?
-.- ... |
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
6524
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Posted - 2014.09.03 10:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thanks, have you taken a look at the proposal in the Scrambler thread in I&F forums? This was a really good video, and clearly laid out the problems of the Tac AR and the "efficiency" of the Scrambler, more than my numbers could.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3425
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Posted - 2014.09.03 10:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
I think if anything this shows how the ScR needs to be more like the TACAR. Poorer hipfire Greater Kick Slightly Slower ROF
The TACAR performed as it should do, inside the range it's expected, while the ScR performs in every range. This needs to be fixed.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
824
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Posted - 2014.09.03 11:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks, have you taken a look at the proposal in the Scrambler thread in I&F forums? This was a really good video, and clearly laid out the problems of the Tac AR and the "efficiency" of the Scrambler, more than my numbers could.
I made this video for that thread. I posted it there first, but it was lost in the rest of the discussion.
YouTube
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HMG Lover
I Just Killed You
0
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Posted - 2014.09.03 12:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Great Video...
The destiny countdown -----> http://destinycountdown.com/
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
757
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Posted - 2014.09.03 12:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Does this mean you'll be doing one for the Burst AR v CR? i hope they up the RPM on the AR to like 1200 that way it should be comparable to the burst fire CR.. then the only difference would be the damage profiles where CR will always win due to players being armor tanked cause shield tanking is just laughable.. but simple thing is.. AR vs shield tankers CR vs armor tankers
shield tankers are weak cause 1 flux nade and 100% of their tank is gone. no such drawback for armor tankers except speed.
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 1 Forum Pariah
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CUSE TOWN333
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
1303
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Posted - 2014.09.03 12:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks, have you taken a look at the proposal in the Scrambler thread in I&F forums? This was a really good video, and clearly laid out the problems of the Tac AR and the "efficiency" of the Scrambler, more than my numbers could. as far as game play performance the Tac AR is very strong if the shots land. if you were to buff the AR properly the scrambler rifle would only need a ROF cap to stop turbo controlers. the Tac ARs problem is applying that damage with the weird kick it has and the despersion plus there is no need for a zoom scope on a shorter range weapon. give the Tac AR a simple reddot sight and you have yourself a winner.
KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4134
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Posted - 2014.09.03 12:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nice video.
If I could click even half that fast I would be popping Ibuprofen after two matches, for my poor abused joints. Which is why I stick to automatic weapons.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2228
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Posted - 2014.09.03 12:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Shiyou Hidiyoshi wrote:The SCR is a long range weapon right?
If so, then I why does it have 80% efficiency minimum in the video at close range... did I read it wrong or something?
-.- ... The ScR is 120% to shields and 80% to armor.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
2366
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Posted - 2014.09.03 12:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks, have you taken a look at the proposal in the Scrambler thread in I&F forums? This was a really good video, and clearly laid out the problems of the Tac AR and the "efficiency" of the Scrambler, more than my numbers could.
You can tweak a number here and there all you like. This is a Mechanics issue.
Hit detection is horrible... Has been horrible and the entire system has been taken LESS SERIOUSLY then Plants Vs Zombies Hit detection...
How can you build a shooter and the fundamentals to it is a cartoon hit detection system....
Until CCP Shanghai masters a dynamic hit detection system with actual hit scan weapons.. Aiming, Bullet registry, Hit detection.. And the general Shooter feel of a game will be absent.
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2228
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Posted - 2014.09.03 13:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
Best PvE idea ever!
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
2366
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 13:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it.
When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. |
Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2228
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 13:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Arcturis Vanguard
Murphys-Law
275
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 13:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:I think if anything this shows how the ScR needs to be more like the TACAR. Poorer hipfire Greater Kick Slightly Slower ROF
The TACAR performed as it should do, inside the range it's expected, while the ScR performs in every range. This needs to be fixed.
So your wish would be that the scrambler become a shell and utterly useless compared to the mainstream use of rail rifles and combat rifles...
No wonder why this games isn't going well...too much help from individuals who know nothing and add nothing for proper balance and then ccp caters to them...
Amarr Heavy V
Amarr Assault V
Caldari Scout V
Caldari logistic IV
Prof V HMG & FORGE
Prof IV CR, SMG
Prof III ScR
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Jace Kaisar
87
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Posted - 2014.09.03 14:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:This video is also posted in the F&D under the Scrambler sticky post. Things covered in this comentary video: -Stats, Cost, and Skill of the TAC vs the SCR. -TAC in action showing it shining in Optimal and falling on it's ass in <30 meters (Some slowmo comparison) -SCR in action showing it shining in all ranges (Also with slow motion comparison) -Outside of game video showing both riflers firing at a near consistent 480 rounds per min using a metronome set at 120bpm with 16th note subdivisions -Slow motion of the TAC misfiring while well under 500 RPM (Bug?) and what I fear would happen if the ROF gets lowered to much on the SCR -EXTREME dispersion difference in both hip fire and ADS between the two (side by side using a commando firing at a wall) -A bad ass drummer in the background. (seriously, this dude is remarkable) And for all those claiming that more than 6 trigger pulls per second controlled is not possible, wtf is wrong with you? Eat some Wheaties or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be
I spied DJ Grammer in that video.
I'm a Spooky Scary Ghost
Before you ask, yes this is me.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
839
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Posted - 2014.09.03 15:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion.
No, I'd say it's a fair point. I'll do 3 some times 4 engagements with the SCR before taking the time to reload. If I unload 16 shots, back off, I only need to stall for a second before firing another 4 rounds, stall again, fire another 2, ect. Think of the SCR as having its primary mag ammo, then 3 mags worth of reserve ammo in the mag that trickles in. With the TAC, if I fire off 16 rounds, I need to reload.
Also shouldn't be overlooked is that I can sprint while my SCR is cooling down (not overheated) which makes it easier to engage and disengage in and out of cover as appose to the only walk, or jump options when reloading a TAC. In short, I prefer the options I have with DPS management with the SCR over the TAC, it's just a lot more to keep in mind and adds to the actual skill required to use the weapon, but in practice works very well.
YouTube
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
839
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 15:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jace Kaisar wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:This video is also posted in the F&D under the Scrambler sticky post. Things covered in this comentary video: -Stats, Cost, and Skill of the TAC vs the SCR. -TAC in action showing it shining in Optimal and falling on it's ass in <30 meters (Some slowmo comparison) -SCR in action showing it shining in all ranges (Also with slow motion comparison) -Outside of game video showing both riflers firing at a near consistent 480 rounds per min using a metronome set at 120bpm with 16th note subdivisions -Slow motion of the TAC misfiring while well under 500 RPM (Bug?) and what I fear would happen if the ROF gets lowered to much on the SCR -EXTREME dispersion difference in both hip fire and ADS between the two (side by side using a commando firing at a wall) -A bad ass drummer in the background. (seriously, this dude is remarkable) And for all those claiming that more than 6 trigger pulls per second controlled is not possible, wtf is wrong with you? Eat some Wheaties or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be I spied DJ Grammer in that video.
Yea he's good. Kills me often. He makes the min assault work for sure.
YouTube
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2230
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 15:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion. No, I'd say it's a fair point. I'll do 3 some times 4 engagements with the SCR before taking the time to reload. If I unload 16 shots, back off, I only need to stall for a second before firing another 4 rounds, stall again, fire another 2, ect. Think of the SCR as having its primary mag ammo, then 3 mags worth of reserve ammo in the mag that trickles in. With the TAC, if I fire off 16 rounds, I need to reload. Also shouldn't be overlooked is that I can sprint while my SCR is cooling down (not overheated) which makes it easier to engage and disengage in and out of cover as appose to the only walk, or jump options when reloading a TAC. In short, I prefer the options I have with DPS management with the SCR over the TAC, it's just a lot more to keep in mind and adds to the actual skill required to use the weapon, but in practice works very well. He's saying it's moot, as In totally irrelevant to the conversation. I think all aspects are important to consider, including the ones you mention about being able to sprint while cooling down, etc. It's not about which is better, it's about trying to capture as much relevant data to have an informed discussion. How much DPS do you think you miss out on when you're managing heat? I'm not a great player, and it's probably around 20% less than if I were spamming R1 as fast as I could. For example if I were going against a PRO armor heavy with reps, and I knew I had to manage heat carefully.
I just think it would be interesting to see this broken down more, like you did with the fire rates.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Coleman Gray
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
1180
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 15:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks, have you taken a look at the proposal in the Scrambler thread in I&F forums? This was a really good video, and clearly laid out the problems of the Tac AR and the "efficiency" of the Scrambler, more than my numbers could.
Railrifles have the same efficiency problem.
If Preparation is half of the battle and knowing is the other half, Then there is no need to fight.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
839
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Posted - 2014.09.03 15:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion. No, I'd say it's a fair point. I'll do 3 some times 4 engagements with the SCR before taking the time to reload. If I unload 16 shots, back off, I only need to stall for a second before firing another 4 rounds, stall again, fire another 2, ect. Think of the SCR as having its primary mag ammo, then 3 mags worth of reserve ammo in the mag that trickles in. With the TAC, if I fire off 16 rounds, I need to reload. Also shouldn't be overlooked is that I can sprint while my SCR is cooling down (not overheated) which makes it easier to engage and disengage in and out of cover as appose to the only walk, or jump options when reloading a TAC. In short, I prefer the options I have with DPS management with the SCR over the TAC, it's just a lot more to keep in mind and adds to the actual skill required to use the weapon, but in practice works very well. He's saying it's moot, as In totally irrelevant to the conversation. I think all aspects are important to consider, including the ones you mention about being able to sprint while cooling down, etc. It's not about which is better, it's about trying to capture as much relevant data to have an informed discussion. How much DPS do you think you miss out on when you're managing heat? I'm not a great player, and it's probably around 20% less than if I were spamming R1 as fast as I could. For example if I were going against a PRO armor heavy with reps, and I knew I had to manage heat carefully. I just think it would be interesting to see this broken down more, like you did with the fire rates.
You're right, I didn't mean I agree with the point about over heat being moot, just that IMO well managed heat up can be applied better than finite rounds with forced reload. I'll try to crunch some math but my thoughts would be better shown in a graph that is DPS vs the 2 over the course of 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, up to say 10 seconds. With the TAC just firing then reloading vs the SCR firing up to but not overheat and trickle shots after that staying just below overheat. This data could be used to make the argument that the TAC could use more rounds in its mag maybe?
YouTube
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2230
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Posted - 2014.09.03 16:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:You're right, I didn't mean I agree with the point about over heat being moot, just that IMO well managed heat up can be applied better than finite rounds with forced reload. I'll try to crunch some math but my thoughts would be better shown in a graph that is DPS vs the 2 over the course of 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, up to say 10 seconds. With the TAC just firing then reloading vs the SCR firing up to but not overheat and trickle shots after that staying just below overheat. This data could be used to make the argument that the TAC could use more rounds in its mag maybe? Sorry I misread your comment. A graph would be cool, but be sure to base it on actual testing, because in practice, most ScR users don't manage to stop right at 99% heat every time. Usually is much less than that if they're being cautious. I think your video clearly showed that the tac AR needs love. Your earlier suggestion of increased accuracy and smooth RoF would help immensely. It may need a few more rounds in the mag as well. I'd like to see all weapons be viable/competitive.
Best PvE idea ever!
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
2228
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Posted - 2014.09.03 16:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
Great video doc, thanks for the input on the ScR thread, definitely helped create a better discussion point o7
The Sinwarden of 0uter.Heaven
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Maiden selena MORTIMOR
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
135
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Posted - 2014.09.03 17:36:00 -
[38] - Quote
The RR and scr both have way to strong hipfire for medium to long range rifles
no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave
When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
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Boot Booter
Pure Evil.
897
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Posted - 2014.09.03 19:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
I find the mis firing on the TAR to be the worst. If that was fixed I think it'd be used more often.
Good video.
What happened to the repair tool glow?
Why won't CCP answer?
Conspiracy?
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
846
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Posted - 2014.09.03 20:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:You're right, I didn't mean I agree with the point about over heat being moot, just that IMO well managed heat up can be applied better than finite rounds with forced reload. I'll try to crunch some math but my thoughts would be better shown in a graph that is DPS vs the 2 over the course of 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, up to say 10 seconds. With the TAC just firing then reloading vs the SCR firing up to but not overheat and trickle shots after that staying just below overheat. This data could be used to make the argument that the TAC could use more rounds in its mag maybe? Sorry I misread your comment. A graph would be cool, but be sure to base it on actual testing, because in practice, most ScR users don't manage to stop right at 99% heat every time. Usually is much less than that if they're being cautious. I think your video clearly showed that the tac AR needs love. Your earlier suggestion of increased accuracy and smooth RoF would help immensely. It may need a few more rounds in the mag as well. I'd like to see all weapons be viable/competitive.
Ok, so crunching some numbers and doing some test has led me to, damn this is a hard question to consider.
For raw numbers I evened a few things out that made the math a little easier because of the amount of variables involved.
First, this math assumes 70hp per shot (even though the base of the TAC has a higher base Second, assumed 480 rpm RoF on both because that is what I can do and I've seen very few (only |--Shaze--| so far) prove they can get above 480 consistent enough to do it for a full 2 seconds. Plus 480 is 120bpm and divides into seconds well (8 shots per second) Third, to make the amount of damage per second and min level better or in even seconds, I assumed reload 2 skill applied. This is because I want to say 16 shots per 2 seconds on both, but the TAC has 18 shots, so 2 additional shots at the same RoF would add 1/4 of a second. Knocking the reload time of the TAC from 3 seconds to 2.82 seconds makes the time between shooting mags 5 seconds even. So 18 shots every 5 seconds or so. Forth, cool down assumes operation 5 on the SCR, which takes total cool down from 6 seconds to 4.5 seconds.
Here are the numbers.
SCR theoretical DPS Average using 70 hp per shot. At 480 rpm 16 shots in 2 seconds Reload 2.5 seconds Pause for 2 seconds (remaining cool down) rince repeat
16 shots every 6.5 seconds = 1120
147 shots per min 10,338 hp per min 173 hp average per second over a full minute
TAC theoretical DPS Average using 70 hp per shot. At 480 18 shots in 2.12 second 2.82 second reload 2 done to give average of 18 shots per 5 seconds.
18 shots every 5 seconds = 1260
216 shots per min 15,120 hp per min 252 hp average per second
Now what is impossible to account for is the fact that I can fire for 2 seconds with the SCR, wait for 1.5 to 2 seconds and get 4 to 8 additional shots off before the TAC is finished reloading. If we were to both survive the initial 'mag' of fire, I would have the advantage on the follow up. I could also fire 16 and press and hold one more time, and fire a full charge shot as my 17th shot to deal the final blow (though I would have to wait a little over 3 seconds to avoid over heat). But theoretically by backloading my chargeshot I could deal an additional 175 hp (it's 2.5 multiplier right?) while he is reloading.
Some other things I found when testing different tempos or rhythm divisions that may interest some SCR users.
-Did you know the lighter you press R1, the more shots you can get out? Makes since after thinking about it, because the shot is a press release, if you press hard, you've pressed longer, a slight tap allows more cool down time between shots. I noticed this when trying to find the perfect timing for continuous fire. Pressing the button as I normally do, I was able to fire all 45 rounds at a tempo of 69bpm using 8th notes. By pressing and releasing the button as lightly as possible I was able to get this up to 84 bpm and fire all 45 rounds consecutively without over heating!
-Rolling 8th note triplets overheated 2 shots less than 16th notes, so only able to get out 14 rounds without overheating, but overheated about half a second later. 8th note triplets at 120bpm translates to about 360 rpm. So if you are a player that is only managing a RoF of 360, you are 2 rounds short of what someone that can go 480. At then end of the day I guess this one was obvious, but seeing it kind of hit home with the argument of heat per round instead of heat per second. Us fast figure guys have what could amount to a 200+HP per engagement advantage if you take into account prof and damage mods over a player with equal SP and gear but no Wheaties for breakfast.
-Quick burst followed by a long pause within the same second will allow for more shots over time. This one is a little harder to explain with out explaining a few core rhythms, but I will try. A 'Triplet' is three evenly spaced beats in the place of 2. A lesson 25 is similar, but the three notes are played faster up front leaving a longer pause before playing the next set. (it's 2 16th notes followed by an 8th note)
So lets say this represents an 8th note triplet followed by a 1/4note rest - .| .| .| } And lets say this represents a lesson 25 followed by a 1/4 note rest - ,|,| ,| }
Rolling triplets in that pattern for the duration of the mag will net you 36 shots before overheat Rolling lesson 25s in that pattern for the duration of the mag will net you 39 shots before overheat. The lesson here is that the quicker the burst, the faster the cool down, though we are really only talking fractions of a second better.
YouTube
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3441
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Posted - 2014.09.03 21:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
Arcturis Vanguard wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I think if anything this shows how the ScR needs to be more like the TACAR. Poorer hipfire Greater Kick Slightly Slower ROF
The TACAR performed as it should do, inside the range it's expected, while the ScR performs in every range. This needs to be fixed. So your wish would be that the scrambler become a shell and utterly useless compared to the mainstream use of rail rifles and combat rifles... No wonder why this games isn't going well...too much help from individuals who know nothing and add nothing for proper balance and then ccp caters to them...
No I wish the ScR to have preferred range where it works and ranges where ot doesn't just like the AR and CR. I also want the RR to have a similar treatment so that all 4 rifles have 4 unique optimals.
I then want all 4 rifles to get all 4 variations and to available from Lvl 2 operation. That's what I want.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
850
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Posted - 2014.09.03 21:49:00 -
[42] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Arcturis Vanguard wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I think if anything this shows how the ScR needs to be more like the TACAR. Poorer hipfire Greater Kick Slightly Slower ROF
The TACAR performed as it should do, inside the range it's expected, while the ScR performs in every range. This needs to be fixed. So your wish would be that the scrambler become a shell and utterly useless compared to the mainstream use of rail rifles and combat rifles... No wonder why this games isn't going well...too much help from individuals who know nothing and add nothing for proper balance and then ccp caters to them... No I wish the ScR to have preferred range where it works and ranges where ot doesn't just like the AR and CR. I also want the RR to have a similar treatment so that all 4 rifles have 4 unique optimals. I then want all 4 rifles to get all 4 variations and to available from Lvl 2 operation. That's what I want.
I've tried imagining how your second want would work. Maybe you can elaborate? Help me fill in the blanks
Rifle Simi auto - longest range - worst CQ Breach - sits where, here? Or should this weapon fill the roll of an LMG and be high power, long Range, full auto, large magazine but **** for accuracy? Burst - mid to long Auto - short to mid
With this model would no varient cross over another variants teritory? So the RR would then need to be out ranged by 4 rifles correct?
HMG
Sidearms Pistols - shorter than Auto ARs SMGs - shorter than pistols?
SGs - shorter than SMGs
Now what should be the optimal, effective, useless ranges for each of these?
Then what do you say to players that like me that exist in every FPS out there that prefer high power, highly accurate, simi auto weapons that fire as fast as I can pull the trigger? "Sorry you don't get to play in CQC with your preferred play style"
This arguement isn't new to dust, in every FPS there is a rifle class that a certain type of gamer drifts to because it has the longest range, best stopping power, and highest accuracy but the trade of is you have to pull the trigger for every shot. And in every FPS there are players that hate it.
YouTube
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
2371
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Posted - 2014.09.04 03:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion.
Your entire argument was that the SCR is balanced because of the overheat mechanic.
The Ammo limits on the TAC AR where imposed when it got 4 separate nerfs at once in a knee jerk reaction nerf from CCP's inability to design recoil and fire mechanics in gun that isn't negated completely by a simple control input macro. (Modded controllers)
Most of the nerfs imposed on the TAC AR in Uprising 1.2 and 1.3 where complete bullshit. Where the Ovehear mechanic on the SCR which is a gun that hasnt changed and has always been relevant competitively since implementation into DUST... somehow balances with a gun that has had it's balls cutt off with a mechanic that was designed and balanced to compete with it when it actually possesed balls.
Now probably that only solution Developers are thinking about to improve it is to crank up the Aim assist and hit box with the gun.
Instead of just undoing the ******** limitations that where imposed based on complaints which mostly came from a place of ignorance.
The problem with the Tac AR in a nuttshell. CCP designed terrible short sighted lazy Recoil and aiming mechanics in a shooter. A $10.00 Modded controller completely negated all of that code and game... So they made a Semi automatic gun... a Gun ment to fire everytime you pull the trigger... Somehow NOT DO WHAT THEY ENTIRE PURPOSE OF A SEMI AUTOMATIC WEAPON DOES.
Your overheat mechanic on a SCR is moot in a comparison to the history of DUST and WHY the Tac AR is a red headed step child of DUST. |
medomai grey
warravens Capital Punishment.
955
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Posted - 2014.09.04 05:55:00 -
[44] - Quote
Things I did not like in the OP's video:
1. Cost argument is narrow viewed. Weapon variants tend to be more expensive than their regular version.
2. Blames shoddy hit detection or dispersion for TAR not hitting when the target is not at the center of his reticle. Although there are rare instances of hit detection problems in game and him being off target is not exclusive to the TAR.
3. Rifles are compared in a uncontrolled environment were many different variables can change the result. One could easily take more footage and draw opposite or same conclusions. One example is 6:40 - 6:45, narrator misses many of his shots but wins the engagement because his squad mate to the right helped him down the scout and then states effectively states and claims that the scrambler is good in CQC.
4. Those drums. Especially when you use a metronome in your "science".
Things I liked:
1. Use of editing. Although there is still room for improvement.
2. The metronome rate of fire analysis.
What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
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Grimmiers
654
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Posted - 2014.09.04 06:22:00 -
[45] - Quote
There's plenty of missfireing for any semi-auto weapon
good video I hope it gets sorted out in delta. |
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7461
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Posted - 2014.09.04 06:46:00 -
[46] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:I think if anything this shows how the ScR needs to be more like the TACAR. Poorer hipfire Greater Kick Slightly Slower ROF
The TACAR performed as it should do, inside the range it's expected, while the ScR performs in every range. This needs to be fixed. TBH the tact could use a slight range buff
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2236
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Posted - 2014.09.04 08:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion. Your entire argument was that the SCR is balanced because of the overheat mechanic. The Ammo limits on the TAC AR where imposed when it got 4 separate nerfs at once in a knee jerk reaction nerf fest from CCP's inability to design recoil and fire mechanics in gun that isn't negated completely by a simple control input macro. (Modded controllers) Most of the nerfs imposed on the TAC AR in Uprising 1.2 and 1.3 where complete bullshit. Where the Oveheat mechanic on the SCR, which is a gun that hasn't changed and has always been relevant competitively since implementation into DUST... somehow balances with a gun that has had it's balls cutt off. With an overheating mechanic that was designed and balanced against the TAC AR when it actually possesed balls. Now Sadly and probably the only solution Developers From CCP Shanghai are thinking about to improve it is to crank up the Aim assist and hit box with the gun. The Lazy and easy way... Instead of just undoing the stupid limitations that where imposed based on complaints which mostly came from a place of ignorance. The problem with the Tac AR in a nuttshell; CCP designed terrible short sighted and lazy Recoil and aiming mechanics in a shooter they where touting as a "Triple A Shooter". A $10.00 Modded controller completely negated all of that code and mechanics they built... So they made a Semi automatic gun... a Gun meant to fire everytime you pull the trigger...And they made it not fire every time you press the trigger, Then tried to tell us, all of CCP Shanghai and the entire studio and nearly 100 employee's makes good shooter games... Yet a Semi automatic gun is to hard for them to pull off. Your overheat mechanic on a SCR is moot in a comparison to the history of DUST and WHY the Tac AR is a red headed step child of DUST. No, my entire argument is that every piece of data is useful and relevant to the discussion. You can't balance sh*t if you just ignore stuff and arbitrarily call things "moot." I specifically stated the TAC AR needed some love--the video clearly demonstrates this.
You're also wrong about the ScR being untouched since launch. It got a small DPS nerf in 1.8 and a huge nerf when they changed how proficiency worked on all weapons (also in 1.8). It hit the shield-bonused weapons much harder than the armor-bonused weapons, with the lasers being the worst of the bunch since they depended so heavily on proficiency to help make up for their massive weakness to the most prevalent type of tank that has a much larger buffer using weapons that overheat.
I don't know what the right fix for the ScR is. Ideally we'd have server-side turbo detection that would address modded controllers. Rattati's said this wasn't hotfixable unfortunately. Changing heat to be by round instead of time might be a step in the right direction. The one thing I don't want to see is the ScR end up like the TAC AR with its akward dryfiring a ton. It's a weapon that does exceptionally well against low HP suits, but demands careful management in a longer engagement with a high HP target. It is my understanding that ScRs aren't as prevalent in PC, which is also worth mentioning. The ScR could easily go from being one of the best weapons in game to ion pistol status if they try to tweak too much.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Bradric Banewolf
D3ATH CARD
300
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Posted - 2014.09.04 14:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks, have you taken a look at the proposal in the Scrambler thread in I&F forums? This was a really good video, and clearly laid out the problems of the Tac AR and the "efficiency" of the Scrambler, more than my numbers could.
Does this mean I get to see the AR back in action in delta?
"Anybody order chaos?"
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Cass Caul
1112
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Posted - 2014.09.04 16:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:This video is also posted in the F&D under the Scrambler sticky post. Things covered in this comentary video: -Stats, Cost, and Skill of the TAC vs the SCR. -TAC in action showing it shining in Optimal and falling on it's ass in <30 meters (Some slowmo comparison) -SCR in action showing it shining in all ranges (Also with slow motion comparison) -Outside of game video showing both riflers firing at a near consistent 480 rounds per min using a metronome set at 120bpm with 16th note subdivisions -Slow motion of the TAC misfiring while well under 500 RPM (Bug?) and what I fear would happen if the ROF gets lowered to much on the SCR -EXTREME dispersion difference in both hip fire and ADS between the two (side by side using a commando firing at a wall) -A bad ass drummer in the background. (seriously, this dude is remarkable) And for all those claiming that more than 6 trigger pulls per second controlled is not possible, wtf is wrong with you? Eat some Wheaties or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be
Tac AR is the only weapon I like in this game. Every other DPS weapon should have hip-fire reduced to that level
I blame her for nova knife kills on tanks
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