It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion.

I spied DJ Grammer in that video.

No, I'd say it's a fair point. I'll do 3 some times 4 engagements with the SCR before taking the time to reload. If I unload 16 shots, back off, I only need to stall for a second before firing another 4 rounds, stall again, fire another 2, ect. Think of the SCR as having its primary mag ammo, then 3 mags worth of reserve ammo in the mag that trickles in. With the TAC, if I fire off 16 rounds, I need to reload.

Also shouldn't be overlooked is that I can sprint while my SCR is cooling down (not overheated) which makes it easier to engage and disengage in and out of cover as appose to the only walk, or jump options when reloading a TAC. In short, I prefer the options I have with DPS management with the SCR over the TAC, it's just a lot more to keep in mind and adds to the actual skill required to use the weapon, but in practice works very well.

Thanks, have you taken a look at the proposal in the Scrambler thread in I&F forums? This was a really good video, and clearly laid out the problems of the Tac AR and the "efficiency" of the Scrambler, more than my numbers could.

He's saying it's moot, as In totally irrelevant to the conversation. I think all aspects are important to consider, including the ones you mention about being able to sprint while cooling down, etc. It's not about which is better, it's about trying to capture as much relevant data to have an informed discussion. How much DPS do you think you miss out on when you're managing heat? I'm not a great player, and it's probably around 20% less than if I were spamming R1 as fast as I could. For example if I were going against a PRO armor heavy with reps, and I knew I had to manage heat carefully.

I just think it would be interesting to see this broken down more, like you did with the fire rates.

You're right, I didn't mean I agree with the point about over heat being moot, just that IMO well managed heat up can be applied better than finite rounds with forced reload. I'll try to crunch some math but my thoughts would be better shown in a graph that is DPS vs the 2 over the course of 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, up to say 10 seconds. With the TAC just firing then reloading vs the SCR firing up to but not overheat and trickle shots after that staying just below overheat. This data could be used to make the argument that the TAC could use more rounds in its mag maybe?

Sorry I misread your comment. A graph would be cool, but be sure to base it on actual testing, because in practice, most ScR users don't manage to stop right at 99% heat every time. Usually is much less than that if they're being cautious. I think your video clearly showed that the tac AR needs love. Your earlier suggestion of increased accuracy and smooth RoF would help immensely. It may need a few more rounds in the mag as well. I'd like to see all weapons be viable/competitive.

So your wish would be that the scrambler become a shell and utterly useless compared to the mainstream use of rail rifles and combat rifles...

No wonder why this games isn't going well...too much help from individuals who know nothing and add nothing for proper balance and then ccp caters to them...

No I wish the ScR to have preferred range where it works and ranges where ot doesn't just like the AR and CR.
I also want the RR to have a similar treatment so that all 4 rifles have 4 unique optimals.

I then want all 4 rifles to get all 4 variations and to available from Lvl 2 operation.
That's what I want.

It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion.

I think if anything this shows how the ScR needs to be more like the TACAR.
Poorer hipfire
Greater Kick
Slightly Slower ROF

The TACAR performed as it should do, inside the range it's expected, while the ScR performs in every range.
This needs to be fixed.

Your entire argument was that the SCR is balanced because of the overheat mechanic.

The Ammo limits on the TAC AR where imposed when it got 4 separate nerfs at once in a knee jerk reaction nerf fest from CCP's inability to design recoil and fire mechanics in gun that isn't negated completely by a simple control input macro. (Modded controllers)

Most of the nerfs imposed on the TAC AR in Uprising 1.2 and 1.3 where complete bullshit. Where the Oveheat mechanic on the SCR, which is a gun that hasn't changed and has always been relevant competitively since implementation into DUST... somehow balances with a gun that has had it's balls cutt off. With an overheating mechanic that was designed and balanced against the TAC AR when it actually possesed balls.

Now Sadly and probably the only solution Developers From CCP Shanghai are thinking about to improve it is to crank up the Aim assist and hit box with the gun. The Lazy and easy way...

Instead of just undoing the stupid limitations that where imposed based on complaints which mostly came from a place of ignorance.

The problem with the Tac AR in a nuttshell; CCP designed terrible short sighted and lazy Recoil and aiming mechanics in a shooter they where touting as a "Triple A Shooter". A $10.00 Modded controller completely negated all of that code and mechanics they built... So they made a Semi automatic gun... a Gun meant to fire everytime you pull the trigger...And they made it not fire every time you press the trigger, Then tried to tell us, all of CCP Shanghai and the entire studio and nearly 100 employee's makes good shooter games... Yet a Semi automatic gun is to hard for them to pull off.


Your overheat mechanic on a SCR is moot in a comparison to the history of DUST and WHY the Tac AR is a red headed step child of DUST.

Thanks, have you taken a look at the proposal in the Scrambler thread in I&F forums? This was a really good video, and clearly laid out the problems of the Tac AR and the "efficiency" of the Scrambler, more than my numbers could.

This video is also posted in the F&D under the Scrambler sticky post.

Things covered in this comentary video:


-Stats, Cost, and Skill of the TAC vs the SCR.
-TAC in action showing it shining in Optimal and falling on it's ass in <30 meters (Some slowmo comparison)
-SCR in action showing it shining in all ranges (Also with slow motion comparison)
-Outside of game video showing both riflers firing at a near consistent 480 rounds per min using a metronome set at 120bpm with 16th note subdivisions
-Slow motion of the TAC misfiring while well under 500 RPM (Bug?) and what I fear would happen if the ROF gets lowered to much on the SCR
-EXTREME dispersion difference in both hip fire and ADS between the two (side by side using a commando firing at a wall)
-A bad ass drummer in the background. (seriously, this dude is remarkable)


And for all those claiming that more than 6 trigger pulls per second controlled is not possible, wtf is wrong with you? Eat some Wheaties or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be