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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
2228
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Posted - 2014.09.03 12:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
Shiyou Hidiyoshi wrote:The SCR is a long range weapon right?
If so, then I why does it have 80% efficiency minimum in the video at close range... did I read it wrong or something?
-.- ...
The ScR is 120% to shields and 80% to armor.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
2228
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Posted - 2014.09.03 13:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
2228
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 13:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison.
It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
2230
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 15:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion. No, I'd say it's a fair point. I'll do 3 some times 4 engagements with the SCR before taking the time to reload. If I unload 16 shots, back off, I only need to stall for a second before firing another 4 rounds, stall again, fire another 2, ect. Think of the SCR as having its primary mag ammo, then 3 mags worth of reserve ammo in the mag that trickles in. With the TAC, if I fire off 16 rounds, I need to reload. Also shouldn't be overlooked is that I can sprint while my SCR is cooling down (not overheated) which makes it easier to engage and disengage in and out of cover as appose to the only walk, or jump options when reloading a TAC. In short, I prefer the options I have with DPS management with the SCR over the TAC, it's just a lot more to keep in mind and adds to the actual skill required to use the weapon, but in practice works very well.
He's saying it's moot, as In totally irrelevant to the conversation. I think all aspects are important to consider, including the ones you mention about being able to sprint while cooling down, etc. It's not about which is better, it's about trying to capture as much relevant data to have an informed discussion. How much DPS do you think you miss out on when you're managing heat? I'm not a great player, and it's probably around 20% less than if I were spamming R1 as fast as I could. For example if I were going against a PRO armor heavy with reps, and I knew I had to manage heat carefully.
I just think it would be interesting to see this broken down more, like you did with the fire rates.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
2230
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 16:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:You're right, I didn't mean I agree with the point about over heat being moot, just that IMO well managed heat up can be applied better than finite rounds with forced reload. I'll try to crunch some math but my thoughts would be better shown in a graph that is DPS vs the 2 over the course of 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, up to say 10 seconds. With the TAC just firing then reloading vs the SCR firing up to but not overheat and trickle shots after that staying just below overheat. This data could be used to make the argument that the TAC could use more rounds in its mag maybe?
Sorry I misread your comment. A graph would be cool, but be sure to base it on actual testing, because in practice, most ScR users don't manage to stop right at 99% heat every time. Usually is much less than that if they're being cautious. I think your video clearly showed that the tac AR needs love. Your earlier suggestion of increased accuracy and smooth RoF would help immensely. It may need a few more rounds in the mag as well. I'd like to see all weapons be viable/competitive.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound
Dark Taboo
2236
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Posted - 2014.09.04 08:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion. Your entire argument was that the SCR is balanced because of the overheat mechanic. The Ammo limits on the TAC AR where imposed when it got 4 separate nerfs at once in a knee jerk reaction nerf fest from CCP's inability to design recoil and fire mechanics in gun that isn't negated completely by a simple control input macro. (Modded controllers) Most of the nerfs imposed on the TAC AR in Uprising 1.2 and 1.3 where complete bullshit. Where the Oveheat mechanic on the SCR, which is a gun that hasn't changed and has always been relevant competitively since implementation into DUST... somehow balances with a gun that has had it's balls cutt off. With an overheating mechanic that was designed and balanced against the TAC AR when it actually possesed balls. Now Sadly and probably the only solution Developers From CCP Shanghai are thinking about to improve it is to crank up the Aim assist and hit box with the gun. The Lazy and easy way... Instead of just undoing the stupid limitations that where imposed based on complaints which mostly came from a place of ignorance. The problem with the Tac AR in a nuttshell; CCP designed terrible short sighted and lazy Recoil and aiming mechanics in a shooter they where touting as a "Triple A Shooter". A $10.00 Modded controller completely negated all of that code and mechanics they built... So they made a Semi automatic gun... a Gun meant to fire everytime you pull the trigger...And they made it not fire every time you press the trigger, Then tried to tell us, all of CCP Shanghai and the entire studio and nearly 100 employee's makes good shooter games... Yet a Semi automatic gun is to hard for them to pull off. Your overheat mechanic on a SCR is moot in a comparison to the history of DUST and WHY the Tac AR is a red headed step child of DUST.
No, my entire argument is that every piece of data is useful and relevant to the discussion. You can't balance sh*t if you just ignore stuff and arbitrarily call things "moot." I specifically stated the TAC AR needed some love--the video clearly demonstrates this.
You're also wrong about the ScR being untouched since launch. It got a small DPS nerf in 1.8 and a huge nerf when they changed how proficiency worked on all weapons (also in 1.8). It hit the shield-bonused weapons much harder than the armor-bonused weapons, with the lasers being the worst of the bunch since they depended so heavily on proficiency to help make up for their massive weakness to the most prevalent type of tank that has a much larger buffer using weapons that overheat.
I don't know what the right fix for the ScR is. Ideally we'd have server-side turbo detection that would address modded controllers. Rattati's said this wasn't hotfixable unfortunately. Changing heat to be by round instead of time might be a step in the right direction. The one thing I don't want to see is the ScR end up like the TAC AR with its akward dryfiring a ton. It's a weapon that does exceptionally well against low HP suits, but demands careful management in a longer engagement with a high HP target. It is my understanding that ScRs aren't as prevalent in PC, which is also worth mentioning. The ScR could easily go from being one of the best weapons in game to ion pistol status if they try to tweak too much.
Best PvE idea ever!
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