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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3378
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Posted - 2014.08.27 09:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I'll start by quoting this statement from Rattati.
CCP Rattati wrote:Actually I just gave the CPM a heads up yesterday that the scrambler is outperforming other rifles right now, yet the assault scrambler is one of the worst performers, along with all the GA Assault Rifles, still...
So it's obvious that many of the rifles (4 Blaster Variants + 1 Scrambler Variant ~ 50%) aren't working as they should be and at least 1 of them is OVER performing.
But the big question is do we bump up the 50% not working well enough or do we bring down the 50% working too well?
Currently the AR has 44m Optimal Range and about 450 DPS at PRO level. I'm sure most of you agree that 450 DPS is more than sufficent for a rifle. Because of this I'm going to use the Gallante Assault Rifle as the yard stick, everything else will be in comparison to that rifle.
Gallante Assault Rifle:
Optimal:44m Effective:72
DPS: 453 TTE: 4.5 Secs (Time to empty magazine)
First let's look at the other Rifles and their Variants
Burst Combat Rifle:
Optimal:61m(+17m) Effective:77(+5m)
DPS:594(+141) TTE: 2.7 Secs (3.35 with Min Assault Lvl 5)
Assuming fire at full auto, is possible.
Assault Combat Rifle:
Optimal:50m(+6m) Effective:77(+5m)
DPS:420(-33) TTE: 3.4 Secs (4.25 with Min Assault Lvl 5)
Scrambler Rifle:
Optimal:72m(+28m) Effective:83m(+11m)
DPS: 572(+119) TTOH: 2 Seconds (2.5 Seconds with Am Assault Lvl 5)
Assault Scrambler Rifle:
Optimal:55m(+11m) Effective:83m(+11m)
DPS:420(-33) TTE: 6.5 Seconds (Overheat not calculated, from experience 5 seconds)
Rail Rifle:
Optimal:72m(+28m) Effective:94m(+22m)
DPS:397(-56) TTE: 5.5 Seconds
Assault Rail Rifle:
Optimal:72m(+28m) Effective:94m(+22m)
DPS: 400(-53) TTE: 4.2 Seconds
As you can see in comparison the ACR and ARR the Assault Rifle is relatively balanced it has the best DPS and largest relative mag size. However the ARR does need a range nerf, my personal suggestion would be about 60m optimal.
The ACR can be seen as over performing because it's profile gives an effective 5% damage boost (not calcualated), this needs to be rectified.
The AScR we can see is underperforming purely because of it's Shield weighted damage profile, doing anything to this weapon would overpower it.
The RR is perfectly balanced by comparison better suited to long term engagements outside the effective range of most of the other weapons, this is fine and balanced.
The BCR is too easy to abuse, when fired at full auto it has ridicuolus DPS and range, which in turn with the projectile damage profile ends in devastating results, I suggest a higher forced delay between burst, such that only 4 bursts per second is capable, then a damage rebalance to approximatly 410 DPS
The ScR is equally easy to abuse, when fired at 8 shots per second it too has riduicuolus DPS and range, pair this with a larg mag and relatively easy to avoid overheat function and you have weapon that just chews through the enemy.
From this it's obvious why the BCR and ScR are overperforming, making the GAR obselete.
I will edit this post later to include the other Gallante Variants.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Spaceman-Rob
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
502
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Posted - 2014.08.27 09:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Please buff my tac 5 assault rifle, increase rate of fire or magazine size would be welcomed. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2329
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rail rifle needs the range. Caldari suits arent optimized to be anywhere near brawler ranges. They have to thoroughly outrange HMG (and assault HMG) ranges or they are meat. Period.
Scram rifle doesnt do too much damage to armor. The damage is similar to the tac AR. Nerfing it would make the weapon utterly worthless vs. Armor suits, which only die to scrams when sitting still or running in straight lines.
CR should eat a -20% to shields +20% to armor which frees up the middle damage niche so the GAR and RR can shine as the most balanced killers as they are less specialized. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3378
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Posted - 2014.08.27 10:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Rail rifle needs the range. Caldari suits arent optimized to be anywhere near brawler ranges. They have to thoroughly outrange HMG (and assault HMG) ranges or they are meat. Period.
Scram rifle doesnt do too much damage to armor. The damage is similar to the tac AR. Nerfing it would make the weapon utterly worthless vs. Armor suits, which only die to scrams when sitting still or running in straight lines.
CR should eat a -20% to shields +20% to armor which frees up the middle damage niche so the GAR and RR can shine as the most balanced killers as they are less specialized.
Yet then by that definition you'd be happy with the CR maintaining it's equally devastating damage because it's profile would favours armour?
Or is this a case, one set of rules for you one set of rules by everyone else? The ScR at 480 RPM (voluntarily) still outperforms the AR at armour damage, out performs the Rail Rifle at armour damage without profciency, out performs both armour based assault variant weapons without profciency.
So I don't know where your getting this info from, but unless your enemy has profciency skills, your not loosing out at all. The ScR and the BCR most indefinitely need a nerf. Both in max ROF and Damage.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3378
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Posted - 2014.08.27 11:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gallante Rifle comparisons are now also up!
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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hfderrtgvcd
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
359
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Posted - 2014.08.27 11:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
You can't simply look at dps, range, and tte and decide whether a weapon is op or not. For example look at the scrambler rifle. Its +20/-20 damage profile ends up in a net zero damage difference but requires you to pick your fights carefully unlike the assault rifle's profile of +10/-10. Furthermore, its overheat lasts five seconds (much longer than most reloads) and prevents you from switching weapons, sprinting, and reduces your movement speed. Its semi automatic firing mode makes it more difficult to use than other weapons and makes it inferior to automatics in cqc. Its also can output far less damage than other rifles before having to stop.
All these factors have to be taken into consideration before judging a weapon. The scrambler is actually quite balanced but seems op because of its high dos and range.
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Echo 1991
WarRavens
414
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Posted - 2014.08.27 11:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:You can't simply look at dps, range, and tte and decide whether a weapon is op or not. For example look at the scrambler rifle. Its +20/-20 damage profile ends up in a net zero damage difference but requires you to pick your fights carefully unlike the assault rifle's profile of +10/-10. Furthermore, its overheat lasts five seconds (much longer than most reloads) and prevents you from switching weapons, sprinting, and reduces your movement speed. Its semi automatic firing mode makes it more difficult to use than other weapons and makes it inferior to automatics in cqc. Its also can output far less damage than other rifles before having to stop.
All these factors have to be taken into consideration before judging a weapon. The scrambler is actually quite balanced but seems op because of its high dos and range.
The scrambler rifle does more to armour than any other rifle (SR not included). If all your shots hit you wont overheat before the person you are shooting at is dead, (unless its a heavy) especially if its a shield tanked suit. And the fact it is a single shot gun has nothing to do with how effective it is in cqc when it fires as fast the ScR does. |
rpastry
The Rainbow Effect
203
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Posted - 2014.08.27 11:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:S
Burst Combat Rifle:
Optimal:61m(+17m) Effective:77(+5m)
DPS:594(+141) TTE: 2.7 Secs (3.35 with Min Assault Lvl 5)
Assuming fire at full auto, is possible.
The BCR is too easy to abuse, when fired at full auto it has ridicuolus DPS and range, which in turn with the projectile damage profile ends in devastating results, I suggest a higher forced delay between burst, such that only 4 bursts per second is capable, then a damage rebalance to approximatly 410 DPS
You can't fire the BCR at full auto; there's a definite pause between bursts, making your critical paragraph meaningless.
[Removed ASCII Art - CCP Logibro]
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
17426
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
rpastry wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:S
Burst Combat Rifle:
Optimal:61m(+17m) Effective:77(+5m)
DPS:594(+141) TTE: 2.7 Secs (3.35 with Min Assault Lvl 5)
Assuming fire at full auto, is possible.
The BCR is too easy to abuse, when fired at full auto it has ridicuolus DPS and range, which in turn with the projectile damage profile ends in devastating results, I suggest a higher forced delay between burst, such that only 4 bursts per second is capable, then a damage rebalance to approximatly 410 DPS
You can't fire the BCR at full auto; there's a definite pause between bursts, making your critical paragraph meaningless.
Sssh, don't tell him his numbers never actually work. 
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
'Lucent Echelon' - Gallente FW channel
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Jebus McKing
Legio DXIV
595
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:It leaves a big question as to why the ScR is overperforming, yet the almost identical TAC is not.
The ScR is far from being "almost identical" to a TAC. The ScR has a huge advantage in range, hip-fire accuracy, and ROF. This is making it viable in many more situations than the TAC.
IMO all the TAC really needs is a range buff to maybe ~65m. The TACs hip-fire makes it hard to use at close to medium range but at the same time its limited range makes it perform much worse than other long range rifles.
OP is a kitten.
@JebusMcKing
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Cpt McReady
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
Burst Combat Rifle:
Optimal:61m(+17m) Effective:77(+5m)
DPS:594(+141) TTE: 2.7 Secs (3.35 with Min Assault Lvl 5)
Assuming fire at full auto, is possible.
wrong dps value because of fire delay between each burst is not taken into account 
Echo 1991 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:You can't simply look at dps, range, and tte and decide whether a weapon is op or not. For
example look at the scrambler rifle. Its +20/-20 damage profile ends up in a net zero damage difference but requires you to pick your fights carefully unlike the assault rifle's profile of +10/-10. Furthermore, its overheat lasts five seconds (much longer than most reloads) and prevents you from switching weapons, sprinting, and reduces your movement speed. Its semi automatic firing mode makes it more difficult to use than other weapons and makes it inferior to automatics in cqc. Its also can output far less damage than other rifles before having to stop.
All these factors have to be taken into consideration before judging a weapon. The scrambler is actually quite balanced but seems op because of its high dos and range.
The scrambler rifle does more to armour than any other rifle (SR not included). If all your shots hit you wont overheat before the person you are shooting at is dead, (unless its a heavy) especially if its a shield tanked suit. And the fact it is a single shot gun has nothing to do with how effective it is in cqc when it fires as fast the ScR does.
actually
RR does similar damage to armor as ScR
Combat Rifle does more damage to armor than ScR |
rpastry
The Rainbow Effect
203
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:It leaves a big question as to why the ScR is overperforming, yet the almost identical TAC is not.
The Tactical AR has a ROF limit - there is a distinct pause between shots - this was a nerf applied some time ago due to the TAR becoming an OP FOTM.
The SCR has no ROF limiter so can fire up to its maximum, only being limited by overheat. I'd rather not see a ROF limit as that would make the overheat slower.
If the SCR needs a nerf I'd give it less ammo, possibly make it overheat faster (but cool down faster too).
The ASCR is like a scrambler for people who cant use scramblers, the overheat is too slow to be relevant. If it gets a dps buff I'd give it a range nerf to make it more of a short range wep.
[Removed ASCII Art - CCP Logibro]
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2331
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
The only time I have problems getting killed by scrams happen under one of the following 3 circumstances:
1: I am running a shield suit.
2: Im already wounded badly.
3: I am the target of multiple enemies.
Neither 2 nor 3 are relevant to shield suits.
But putting the CR at 20% to armor will mean that to be roughly effective against all comers you would need to run a rail or plasma.
Further, the only valid argument for the scram and CR alpha (front-loaded) damage falls apart as the scram would still shred shields and the CR would torch armor giving a hard rifle counter to each tank type leaving GAR and RR as the generic long/short range solution to both, and the most efficient methods for cutting down dual-tank bricks. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2331
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
rpastry wrote: I'd rather not see a ROF limit as that would make the overheat slower.
If the SCR needs a nerf I'd give it less ammo, possibly make it overheat faster (but cool down faster too).
False premise. Scrams do heat per second not heat per shot. So over three seconds of continuous fire a scram that fires three shots (one per second) will have built up the same heat that 18 shots (6 per second) has built because the time mechanic from the laser rifle was copy/pasted to the scram. |
Tech De Ra
Electronic Sports League
558
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:S
Burst Combat Rifle:
Optimal:61m(+17m) Effective:77(+5m)
DPS:594(+141) TTE: 2.7 Secs (3.35 with Min Assault Lvl 5)
Assuming fire at full auto, is possible.
The BCR is too easy to abuse, when fired at full auto it has ridicuolus DPS and range, which in turn with the projectile damage profile ends in devastating results, I suggest a higher forced delay between burst, such that only 4 bursts per second is capable, then a damage rebalance to approximatly 410 DPS
there is a 0.06s pause between each burst, so you'll find that the dps is 424, not 594
Prime League champion
SGL Sidearm champion
Fanfest '14 All star champion
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Cody Sietz
Evzones
Public.Disorder.
3918
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
The TARs real drawback is the kick and terrible hipfire.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Ryme Intrinseca
1637
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
Spaceman-Rob wrote:Please buff my tac 5 assault rifle, increase rate of fire or magazine size would be welcomed.
DO NOT increase rate of fire. This will just encourage ScR-style turbo abuse. In fact, we already went through a stage of high RoF Tac AR in Uprising, it was the only weapon anyone used and turbos were everywhere.
DO increase magazine size. It's a lovely weapon to use in its current state but that tiny magazine holds it back so much. |
Ryme Intrinseca
1637
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
Scrambler Rifle:
Optimal:72m(+28m) Effective:83m(+11m)
DPS: 572(+119) TTOH: 2 Seconds (2.5 Seconds with Am Assault Lvl 5)
...
Tactical Assault Rifle:
Optimal:55m(+11m) Effective: 77m (+5m)
DPS: 582(+129) TTE: 2.25 Secs (Assumes 8 rounds a second: Almost perfect fully automatic fire)
...
Finally is the tac, suprisingly if Rattati is correct, there is no reason not tomuse this weapon. It functions almost exactly the same as the ScR just without the charge shot. It also doesn't suffer the supposedly crippling overheat, but simply reloads instead.
It leaves a big question as to why the ScR is overperforming, yet the almost identical TAC is not. It may be in any case the range, or lack thereof.
There is no mystery about this, 572 DPS for the ScR is a miscalculation. The current figure for proto ScR is 841 DPS (705.88/60*71.5), while the proto Tac AR only manages 607 DPS (500/60*72.8). So the ScR performs so much better because it has much higher range AND much higher DPS. |
Echo 1991
WarRavens
414
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Posted - 2014.08.27 12:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cpt McReady wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
Burst Combat Rifle:
Optimal:61m(+17m) Effective:77(+5m)
DPS:594(+141) TTE: 2.7 Secs (3.35 with Min Assault Lvl 5)
Assuming fire at full auto, is possible.
wrong dps value because of fire delay between each burst is not taken into account Echo 1991 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:You can't simply look at dps, range, and tte and decide whether a weapon is op or not. For
example look at the scrambler rifle. Its +20/-20 damage profile ends up in a net zero damage difference but requires you to pick your fights carefully unlike the assault rifle's profile of +10/-10. Furthermore, its overheat lasts five seconds (much longer than most reloads) and prevents you from switching weapons, sprinting, and reduces your movement speed. Its semi automatic firing mode makes it more difficult to use than other weapons and makes it inferior to automatics in cqc. Its also can output far less damage than other rifles before having to stop.
All these factors have to be taken into consideration before judging a weapon. The scrambler is actually quite balanced but seems op because of its high dos and range.
The scrambler rifle does more to armour than any other rifle (SR not included). If all your shots hit you wont overheat before the person you are shooting at is dead, (unless its a heavy) especially if its a shield tanked suit. And the fact it is a single shot gun has nothing to do with how effective it is in cqc when it fires as fast the ScR does. actually RR does similar damage to armor as ScR Combat Rifle does more damage to armor than ScR
CR does not do more damage per bullet. The fact that a weapon can deal slightly more damage to armour, than a weapon desiged to melt armour is not right.
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
E-R-A
413
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Posted - 2014.08.27 13:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Yes, because human will tap R1 12times in 1second. Reality says hi.
Turbo controles are the problem.
Caldari Loyalist
Markiplier fan.
Got 6815 WP only on wrecking tanks with Ion Cannon.
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
E-R-A
413
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Posted - 2014.08.27 13:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Cpt McReady wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
All these factors have to be taken into consideration before judging a weapon. The scrambler is actually quite balanced but seems op because of its high dos and range.
The scrambler rifle does more to armour than any other rifle (SR not included). If all your shots hit you wont overheat before the person you are shooting at is dead, (unless its a heavy) especially if its a shield tanked suit. And the fact it is a single shot gun has nothing to do with how effective it is in cqc when it fires as fast the ScR does. actually RR does similar damage to armor as ScR Combat Rifle does more damage to armor than ScR
CR does not do more damage per bullet. The fact that a weapon can deal slightly more damage to armour, than a weapon desiged to melt armour is not right.
[/quote]
Damage per bullet?
That means nothing.
Sniper rifle does (lets say) 300dmg per bullet to armor.
It means its OP? Nope.
Burst HMG have small dmg per bullet.
Is it UP? Nope because of 6k rof.
Damage per bullet statment is false.
Caldari Loyalist
Markiplier fan.
Got 6815 WP only on wrecking tanks with Ion Cannon.
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Echo 1991
WarRavens
414
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Posted - 2014.08.27 13:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
You cant just use raw dps values as you arent going to hit every shot every time. Also to calculate dps you have to use both RoF and damage per bullet. Right now the ScR does too much damage it has since it was first put into the game just no one has used it since whenever the CR was introduced. |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
3916
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Posted - 2014.08.27 14:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:rpastry wrote: I'd rather not see a ROF limit as that would make the overheat slower.
If the SCR needs a nerf I'd give it less ammo, possibly make it overheat faster (but cool down faster too).
False premise. Scrams do heat per second not heat per shot. So over three seconds of continuous fire a scram that fires three shots (one per second) will have built up the same heat that 18 shots (6 per second) has built because the time mechanic from the laser rifle was copy/pasted to the scram.
TBH that's the only real problem with the weapon. If the heat cost was changed to per-shot we wouldn't be having these circular discussions on a daily basis. Hooray for lazy coding...
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3380
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Posted - 2014.08.27 19:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Yes, because human will tap R1 12times in 1second. Reality says hi.
Turbo controles are the problem.
If you need a turbo controller to reach the 8 shots per second, I feel sorry for you, in an attempt to be unbiased the ScR has been calculated at 8 shots per second. The same as the TACAR has.
Echo 1991 wrote:You cant just use raw dps values as you arent going to hit every shot every time. Also to calculate dps you have to use both RoF and damage per bullet. Right now the ScR does too much damage it has since it was first put into the game just no one has used it since whenever the CR was introduced.
If you wish to calculate accuracy, you take an average accuracy 60% (+ù0.60) and multiple the raw DPS by that value. Attempting to calcualte a different players with different accuracies creates biased results, since every weapin in the game will be UP if it's weilded by a crap shot, vice versa every weapon would be OP if you never missed a single shot. Secondly I did use DMG and ROF.
Ryme Intresica wrote:There is no mystery about this, 572 DPS for the ScR is a miscalculation. The current figure for proto ScR is 841 DPS (705.88/60*71.5), while the proto Tac AR only manages 607 DPS (500/60*72.8). So the ScR performs so much better because it has much higher range AND much higher DPS.
This however requires a turbo controller, this is simply arguement for the a harsher ROF cap to combat such abuse, however you will notice this is calcualted at 8 shots a second, a supposedly more reasonable ROF for ScR users.
Tech de ra wrote:there is a 0.06s pause between each burst, so you'll find that the dps is 424, not 594
Indeed my apologies, with this in mind I suggest a simple 1 dmg per shot nerf is all that is neccesary, assuming of course the damage profile is balanced.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Cruor Abominare
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
140
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Posted - 2014.08.27 20:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
You can play the assign numbers to guns game all day long and its not going to get you anywhere. You want to know why the assault rifle is garbage? It has nothing to do with the other three guns. This game isn't played in a magical vacuum.
The assault rifle is short range and can't get favorable damage curves against things you dont want to be next to, like heavies with hmgs. Unless the heavy player is terrible (an I mean really terrible) a suit sporting an AR should have little chance in taking him down. Now when you get to the other three rifles that actually have range then yes, you have options for killing heavies and shotguns, nk, and whatever else you feel like shooting. So unless you want to make ar's stronger than burst hmg's right now they're always going to be suboptimal weapons.
Other than the laser rifle no gun really operates at a lower capacity for being in the AR optimal. People will always gravitate towards the other three main rifles because they give options and Ar is just brawl with fingers crossed. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
4543
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Posted - 2014.08.27 20:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
I favor Rattati's earlier suggestion ...
* Buff AR damage
* Fix CR damage profile
* Nerf RR hipfire accuracy
* ??? fix ScR (outperforms the others)
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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bamboo x
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1048
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Posted - 2014.08.27 20:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
isnt this just a copypaste from features and ideas
shameful
Eternal Beings - #76 in All Time WP - #90 in All Time Kills. Member since day one, 10 months ago.
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Zindorak
1.U.P
698
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Posted - 2014.08.27 21:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
I hope RR gets a damage nerf just a little bit. For the range it has its does superb damage and very easy to use.
Pokemon master!
CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3382
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Posted - 2014.08.27 23:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
bamboo x wrote:isnt this just a copypaste from features and ideas
shameful
Otherway round, this is the orginal, although almost without exception the Disscusssions and Feedback variant has less conjecture and circumstantial evidence.
But if I didn't put it in both there would have been a serious mistake which was pointed out to me on this thread.
The thing is their are a few of us in GD who prefer to balance weapons with more than just the following arguments.
- I used it and only did about average this clearly means it's not OP
- I used it and absolutely slaughtered a selection of blueberries probably straight from the Academy, it's clearly OP
- I think it FEELS too powerful, this clearly makes it OP
- I think it FEELS just fine, obviously this means it's not OP
- I've got a mate who only does reasonably with it, so how can it be OP?
- I tried it once and liked it more than my current Protostomping fit, it is OP and must be nerfed to hell and back.
and so on and so forth.
This is the thing cruor, echo and every one else who says numbers don't mean squat. This ENTIRE game is built upon numbers. If numbers aren't important why are there so blasted many of them? No of course the game's not played in a vaccum.
But as has been said before. You cannot make an unbiased calculation of weapons balance on 2 people of different skill levels, you can say it's more difficult to hit/aim or whatever but so long as you can get rounds on target it must be assumed that someone somewhere will be able to get even more rounds on target.
You also can't account for Tank type either, since you can tank, either or both, you can't say it's balanced because it can't cut through such and such a tank, yet another weapon that does is suddenly OP, that's biased towards that tank type.
Cover is also a non-factor unless you are calculating regen on a dropsuit. Since in all but 3 (4 if you count the FG) cases, if you don't have line of sight to your opponent, which is required to apply damage, then neither do your opponent.
Reload times are only a factor if you are in an engagement which requires more than 1 magazine, since it's rather biased to balance a weapon assuming it's only ever got half it's mag at the beginning of the engagement.
So no the game is played in a vaccum where we are all standing in a large flat open field, standing still and shooting each other, but if you take a snapshot of an engagement, say the next time a heavy rounds a corner, that frozen moment of time, that's exactly what is happening.
The maths simply doesn't care, it only tells it like it is.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Fizzer XCIV
Company of Marcher Lords
Amarr Empire
157
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Posted - 2014.08.27 23:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:bamboo x wrote:isnt this just a copypaste from features and ideas
shameful Otherway round, this is the orginal, although almost without exception the Disscusssions and Feedback variant has less conjecture and circumstantial evidence. But if I didn't put it in both there would have been a serious mistake which was pointed out to me on this thread. The thing is their are a few of us in GD who prefer to balance weapons with more than just the following arguments.
- I used it and only did about average this clearly means it's not OP
- I used it and absolutely slaughtered a selection of blueberries probably straight from the Academy, it's clearly OP
- I think it FEELS too powerful, this clearly makes it OP
- I think it FEELS just fine, obviously this means it's not OP
- I've got a mate who only does reasonably with it, so how can it be OP?
- I tried it once and liked it more than my current Protostomping fit, it is OP and must be nerfed to hell and back.
and so on and so forth. This is the thing cruor, echo and every one else who says numbers don't mean squat. This ENTIRE game is built upon numbers. If numbers aren't important why are there so blasted many of them? No of course the game's not played in a vaccum. But as has been said before. You cannot make an unbiased calculation of weapons balance on 2 people of different skill levels, you can say it's more difficult to hit/aim or whatever but so long as you can get rounds on target it must be assumed that someone somewhere will be able to get even more rounds on target. You also can't account for Tank type either, since you can tank, either or both, you can't say it's balanced because it can't cut through such and such a tank, yet another weapon that does is suddenly OP, that's biased towards that tank type. Cover is also a non-factor unless you are calculating regen on a dropsuit. Since in all but 3 (4 if you count the FG) cases, if you don't have line of sight to your opponent, which is required to apply damage, then neither do your opponent. Reload times are only a factor if you are in an engagement which requires more than 1 magazine, since it's rather biased to balance a weapon assuming it's only ever got half it's mag at the beginning of the engagement. So no the game is played in a vaccum where we are all standing in a large flat open field, standing still and shooting each other, but if you take a snapshot of an engagement, say the next time a heavy rounds a corner, that frozen moment of time, that's exactly what is happening. The maths simply doesn't care, it only tells it like it is.
Until you add variables. Which this game has.
The math only goes so far. It helps, alot, I admit. But at some point you do have to make decisions based on ideas more abstract than pure math. |
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Bradric Banewolf
D3ATH CARD
267
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Posted - 2014.08.28 01:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
A lot of you deny the obvious?!
"Anybody order chaos?"
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3385
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Posted - 2014.08.28 10:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:bamboo x wrote:isnt this just a copypaste from features and ideas
shameful Otherway round, this is the orginal, although almost without exception the Disscusssions and Feedback variant has less conjecture and circumstantial evidence. But if I didn't put it in both there would have been a serious mistake which was pointed out to me on this thread. The thing is their are a few of us in GD who prefer to balance weapons with more than just the following arguments.
- I used it and only did about average this clearly means it's not OP
- I used it and absolutely slaughtered a selection of blueberries probably straight from the Academy, it's clearly OP
- I think it FEELS too powerful, this clearly makes it OP
- I think it FEELS just fine, obviously this means it's not OP
- I've got a mate who only does reasonably with it, so how can it be OP?
- I tried it once and liked it more than my current Protostomping fit, it is OP and must be nerfed to hell and back.
and so on and so forth. This is the thing cruor, echo and every one else who says numbers don't mean squat. This ENTIRE game is built upon numbers. If numbers aren't important why are there so blasted many of them? No of course the game's not played in a vaccum. But as has been said before. You cannot make an unbiased calculation of weapons balance on 2 people of different skill levels, you can say it's more difficult to hit/aim or whatever but so long as you can get rounds on target it must be assumed that someone somewhere will be able to get even more rounds on target. You also can't account for Tank type either, since you can tank, either or both, you can't say it's balanced because it can't cut through such and such a tank, yet another weapon that does is suddenly OP, that's biased towards that tank type. Cover is also a non-factor unless you are calculating regen on a dropsuit. Since in all but 3 (4 if you count the FG) cases, if you don't have line of sight to your opponent, which is required to apply damage, then neither do your opponent. Reload times are only a factor if you are in an engagement which requires more than 1 magazine, since it's rather biased to balance a weapon assuming it's only ever got half it's mag at the beginning of the engagement. So no the game is played in a vaccum where we are all standing in a large flat open field, standing still and shooting each other, but if you take a snapshot of an engagement, say the next time a heavy rounds a corner, that frozen moment of time, that's exactly what is happening. The maths simply doesn't care, it only tells it like it is. Until you add variables. Which this game has. The math only goes so far. It helps, alot, I admit. But at some point you do have to make decisions based on ideas more abstract than pure math.
Of course, you after all using a simplfied model, but the things you can't use the maths for are things where there is no maths in the first place. Such a map layouts, cover, behaviour under cloaking etc.
But when it comes to the weapons, modules, dropsuits, vehicles, equipment, etc it's all about the maths, because their entore function is born from maths. Each and every module and weapon is designed to manipulate numbers using a predetermined formula, talkking about the feel of such items has no beaeing on it's use.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn
Going for the gold
105
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Posted - 2014.08.28 11:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
What about the laser rifle?
Shotgunner for life.
EDIT: Scratch that, I love my lasers.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
3923
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Posted - 2014.08.28 11:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote:What about the laser rifle?
Too niche. If you can't spam it somehow, a weapon will never really catch on.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3385
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Posted - 2014.08.28 11:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote:What about the laser rifle?
Is not considered one of the 4 racial assault rifles, it is (at least to me) in the LMG category.
Futhermore calculating DPS for this weapon is not particularly easy.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Ryme Intrinseca
Eurotrash Pubstars
1649
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Posted - 2014.08.28 11:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Ryme Intresica wrote:There is no mystery about this, 572 DPS for the ScR is a miscalculation. The current figure for proto ScR is 841 DPS (705.88/60*71.5), while the proto Tac AR only manages 607 DPS (500/60*72.8). So the ScR performs so much better because it has much higher range AND much higher DPS. This however requires a turbo controller, this is simply arguement for the a harsher ROF cap to combat such abuse, however you will notice this is calcualted at 8 shots a second, a supposedly more reasonable ROF for ScR users.
If you wanted to argue for a harsher RoF cap you should FOREGROUND the fact that at present a turbo ScR utterly dominates all other rifles. Instead you make out like Tac AR and ScR have similar DPS, which they definitely do not! So this whole thread reads like an effort at disinformation, to try to keep the ScR an I-win button by obscuring the indisputable facts about the massive DPS and range advantage it has. Maybe you don't mean to do that, maybe you don't use a turbo ScR, but that is how it reads. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3385
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Posted - 2014.08.28 13:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Ryme Intresica wrote:There is no mystery about this, 572 DPS for the ScR is a miscalculation. The current figure for proto ScR is 841 DPS (705.88/60*71.5), while the proto Tac AR only manages 607 DPS (500/60*72.8). So the ScR performs so much better because it has much higher range AND much higher DPS. This however requires a turbo controller, this is simply arguement for the a harsher ROF cap to combat such abuse, however you will notice this is calcualted at 8 shots a second, a supposedly more reasonable ROF for ScR users. If you wanted to argue for a harsher RoF cap you should FOREGROUND the fact that at present a turbo ScR utterly dominates all other rifles. Instead you make out like Tac AR and ScR have similar DPS, which they definitely do not! So this whole thread reads like an effort at disinformation, to try to keep the ScR an I-win button by obscuring the indisputable facts about the massive DPS and range advantage it has. Maybe you don't mean to do that, maybe you don't use a turbo ScR, but that is how it reads.
Maybe you should reread then, I am saying that even at 8 shots a second the ScR has more than a reasonable amount of DPS for its range, even at human levels of firing.
The ScR is a front loaded weapon, and that means so long as it is meant to be a general purpose rifle, it will in effect be overpowered. The idea was to be fair on those who do not abuse the weapon with turbos etc and to show that even then it is still too powerful.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
3924
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Posted - 2014.08.28 13:59:00 -
[38] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote:What about the laser rifle? Is not considered one of the 4 racial assault rifles, it is (at least to me) in the LMG category. Futhermore calculating DPS for this weapon is not particularly easy.
Sure you can.
(EDIT: Gotta give credit to Musta Tornius/Bamm Havoc for doing the actual hard work for those calculations)
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Echo 1991
WarRavens
414
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Posted - 2014.08.28 14:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
All that needs to be done is one of 2 things or both:
1. lower Damage per shot by x amount
2. lower RoF by x amount.
And if its possible change the heat mechanic to per shot. The weapon has far too many strong points and its only weak point is an overheat mechanic that is easily manageable. It doesnt need the nerf hammer but something needs to be done. |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
3925
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Posted - 2014.08.28 14:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:All that needs to be done is one of 2 things or both:
1. lower Damage per shot by x amount
2. lower RoF by x amount.
And if its possible change the heat mechanic to per shot. The weapon has far too many strong points and its only weak point is an overheat mechanic that is easily manageable. It doesnt need the nerf hammer but something needs to be done.
I don't like #1, it's a tactical rifle with a bad damage profile.
#2 is fine, but changing to per-shot heat cost would be more logical, and arguably more effective.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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BAMM HAVOC
Carbon 7
Iron Oxide.
525
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Posted - 2014.09.01 08:49:00 -
[41] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:
(EDIT: Gotta give credit to Musta Tornius/Bamm Havoc for doing the actual hard work for those calculations)
as much as I would love to take credit for this ... I can not, Musta Tomius along with G_Torq I just made this drunk sh177y video
DUST 514 : Team Work OP
if you listen very carefully in actually taking the **** out of those folks higher the totem branch poll pole face thing 
sadly most miss what im actually saying in these videos
BEER TIME !
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3390
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Posted - 2014.09.01 08:55:00 -
[42] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:All that needs to be done is one of 2 things or both:
1. lower Damage per shot by x amount
2. lower RoF by x amount.
And if its possible change the heat mechanic to per shot. The weapon has far too many strong points and its only weak point is an overheat mechanic that is easily manageable. It doesnt need the nerf hammer but something needs to be done.
Personally I think it needs a combination of both. Overheat per shot would require a new patch.
Although I would not be opposed to rdducing heat build up slightly, in order to make up for the lower DPS.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3390
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Posted - 2014.09.01 08:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote:What about the laser rifle? Is not considered one of the 4 racial assault rifles, it is (at least to me) in the LMG category. Futhermore calculating DPS for this weapon is not particularly easy. Sure you can.(EDIT: Gotta give credit to Musta Tornius/Bamm Havoc for doing the actual hard work for those calculations)
Never said you couldn't just said it wasn't worth the effort, not for this thread anyway.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
3953
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Posted - 2014.09.01 22:53:00 -
[44] - Quote
BAMM HAVOC wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:
(EDIT: Gotta give credit to Musta Tornius/Bamm Havoc for doing the actual hard work for those calculations)
as much as I would love to take credit for this ... I can not, Musta Tomius along with G_Torq need the credit here, I just made this drunk sh177y video DUST 514 : Team Work OPif you listen very carefully in actually taking the **** out of those folks higher the totem branch poll pole face thing sadly most miss what im actually saying in these videos
I stand corrected. My apologies to g_torq!
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
563
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Posted - 2014.09.02 00:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
You should try using the TAR, create an alt and dump all your starter points into unlocking the adv variant of the TAR. It should become pretty evident when you fire it from the hip as to why the ScR outperforms it. The kick and dispersion is much higher.
It's literally the same as asking why the scrambler pistol outperforms the ion pistol. |
xavier zor
King and Queens
Peacekeepers of High-Sec
26
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Posted - 2014.09.02 00:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jebus McKing wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:It leaves a big question as to why the ScR is overperforming, yet the almost identical TAC is not. The ScR is far from being "almost identical" to a TAC. The ScR has a huge advantage in range, hip-fire accuracy, and ROF. This is making it viable in many more situations than the TAC. IMO all the TAC really needs is a range buff to maybe ~65m. The TACs hip-fire makes it hard to use at close to medium range but at the same time its limited range makes it perform much worse than other long range rifles.
It is basically a modified tactical assault rifle with a charged shot.
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
219
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Posted - 2014.09.02 03:15:00 -
[47] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Yes, because human will tap R1 12times in 1second. Reality says hi.
Turbo controles are the problem.
Liked. ^^
I dont understand how anyone can say anything about the ScR other than this. I mean -- is there a disconnect between people's senses and their brains? When some of you are eating a banana do you think you are eating a raw fish? Does touching a pillow feel like touching a crocodile's toenail? When you fart do you smell ammonia?
I am really quite interested in the LSD consumption of the average Dust player. |
Cpt McReady
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2014.09.02 07:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:
CR does not do more damage per bullet. The fact that a weapon can deal slightly more damage to armour, than a weapon desiged to melt armour is not right.
lol damage per bullet. wat r u? casul? 
applicable dps is what counts for skilled people. and in the land of skilled people you run around armor tanked with CR and HMG and ScR has no place there. |
BAMM HAVOC
Carbon 7
Iron Oxide.
528
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Posted - 2014.09.02 22:55:00 -
[49] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:BAMM HAVOC wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:
(EDIT: Gotta give credit to Musta Tornius/Bamm Havoc for doing the actual hard work for those calculations)
as much as I would love to take credit for this ... I can not, Musta Tomius along with G_Torq need the credit here, I just made this drunk sh177y video DUST 514 : Team Work OPif you listen very carefully in actually taking the **** out of those folks higher the totem branch poll pole face thing sadly, most miss what im actually saying in these videos is missed I stand corrected. My apologies to g_torq!
sadly G_TORQ no longer cares 
BEER TIME !
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