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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2463
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Posted - 2014.07.23 21:41:00 -
[31] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well I think you're being a bit biased, but again difference of opinion.
I think you would be hard pressed to find a lot of people who think Logis and Assaults should have identical survivability. Because they simply don't respect logistics. Assaults shouldn't accell at survival that's a heavies job,assaults should accell at killing.
And you're saying that personal defense isn't part of the killing role?
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
690
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Posted - 2014.07.23 23:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Really like the OP's ideas. All of it.
+1
Alt of Halla Murr.
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Glantix
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2014.07.24 00:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well I think you're being a bit biased, but again difference of opinion.
I think you would be hard pressed to find a lot of people who think Logis and Assaults should have identical survivability. Because they simply don't respect logistics. Assaults shouldn't accell at survival that's a heavies job,assaults should accell at killing.
By this logic a Heavy should not be able to kill better than an Assault. Also, killing isn't the only part of assaulting, survivability also is key. Being on the frontlines, an Assault should accel at killing, have a fair bit of ehp, and it should have the highest regen of all suits. The logi should not be able to survive on the frontlines, its job is rear support. So honestly, it should have lower stats in every category (aside from equipment) when compared to Assualts. |
Meee One
Hello Kitty Logistics
941
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Posted - 2014.07.24 03:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
Glantix wrote:Meee One wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well I think you're being a bit biased, but again difference of opinion.
I think you would be hard pressed to find a lot of people who think Logis and Assaults should have identical survivability. Because they simply don't respect logistics. Assaults shouldn't accell at survival that's a heavies job,assaults should accell at killing. By this logic a Heavy should not be able to kill better than an Assault. Also, killing isn't the only part of assaulting, survivability also is key. Being on the frontlines, an Assault should accel at killing, have a fair bit of ehp, and it should have the highest regen of all suits. The logi should not be able to survive on the frontlines, its job is rear support. So honestly, it should have lower stats in every category (aside from equipment) when compared to Assualts. So,will you be supplying allies on the frontlines in your assault suit?
I thought not.
Logis should have better survival because allies on the frontlines need supplies,but as soon as a logi is spotted using the OP aiming method they are hunted endlessly,and eventually massacred.
If logis could regen those attempts away they could be more effective.
That and assaults are getting 8 slots in charlie.
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Lanius Pulvis
SVER True Blood Dark Taboo
324
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Posted - 2014.07.24 04:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
Pokey, +1 on the proposals (I know, a lot came from other threads), but -1 on continuing to respond to Meee. It's clear by now he's not interested in reasoned discussion, so save your proverbial breath.
Not new, just new to you.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2477
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Posted - 2014.07.24 06:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
Lanius Pulvis wrote:Pokey, +1 on the proposals (I know, a lot came from other threads), but -1 on continuing to respond to Meee. It's clear by now he's not interested in reasoned discussion, so save your proverbial breath.
Yeah he's being pretty one sided and biased without interest in proper discussion, I'm done with him.
And yeah lots of fantastic ideas flying around, the community has really has put out some great stuff lately.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
596
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Posted - 2014.07.24 10:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Glantix wrote:Meee One wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well I think you're being a bit biased, but again difference of opinion.
I think you would be hard pressed to find a lot of people who think Logis and Assaults should have identical survivability. Because they simply don't respect logistics. Assaults shouldn't accell at survival that's a heavies job,assaults should accell at killing. By this logic a Heavy should not be able to kill better than an Assault. Also, killing isn't the only part of assaulting, survivability also is key. Being on the frontlines, an Assault should accel at killing, have a fair bit of ehp, and it should have the highest regen of all suits. The logi should not be able to survive on the frontlines, its job is rear support. So honestly, it should have lower stats in every category (aside from equipment) when compared to Assualts. So,will you be supplying allies on the frontlines in your assault suit? I thought not. Logis should have better survival because allies on the frontlines need supplies,but as soon as a logi is spotted using the OP aiming method they are hunted endlessly,and eventually massacred. If logis could regen those attempts away they could be more effective. That and assaults are getting 8 slots in charlie. Meee is Basically saying "If I have the same exact stats as an assault suit, but they have a sidearm and I have 3 extra equipment slots on my logi suit
That's completely balanced right?"
Also in a competitive setting:
- Logis- High eHP, medium speed, medium-low regen
- Scouts- Low-Medium eHP, high speed, high regen
This is where the meta stands as of now, with no viable room for assault suits
The mission for Charlie and Delta is to find a place for assaults
Closed Beta Vet/ Chromosome and Corp battle Vet/ Uprising 1.0-Now PC vet
Ex D.F. Director
Current Inner.Hell Director
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CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
596
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Posted - 2014.07.24 10:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
And to the OP
Whoa
These buffs are a little bit overkill
Ide love to talk about it but its too early in the AM
*Reserved for future discussion*
Closed Beta Vet/ Chromosome and Corp battle Vet/ Uprising 1.0-Now PC vet
Ex D.F. Director
Current Inner.Hell Director
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1521
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Posted - 2014.07.24 11:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
the simpliest fix would be to just give suits weapon slots depending on how combat oriented they are and fix their base stats compared to basic frames.
logi (logi is the least combat oriented suit) => 1xsidearm slot scout => 2xsidearm slots assault => 1x light, 1xsidearm commando => 2xlight heavy/sentintel => 1x heavy, 1x sidearm
that way, the suits that are less combat oriented than others have less firepower. the heavier and more frontline oriented the more firepower. |
Mister Goo
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
26
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Posted - 2014.07.24 12:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Pokey I agree with most of your suggestions except the repair tool bonus to all logi suits and slot arrangement.
If your going to give all suits the bonus to the repair tools why not go back to all equipment works the same on all Logi suits? The most important things in battle are getting there quickly (Amar Bonus), resupply (Cal bonus), Scans (Gal bonus), and Repair (Min Bonus). The nano injectors should work the same on all suits. I like that CCP makes you choose what you want to specialize in and the particular bonus that each race receives.
I do think that the repair tools should be put back to their original repair numbers so everyone can be effective with a repair tool only minnies will be able to with handle more DPS.
Slot arrangements also should not be changed. Slayer logi fears are real and they have been abused as FOTM before but instead of removing a complete slot, maybe do an overall negetive % to damage mods and double the stacking penalty for all logi suits. They can put an overall positive % to damage for a race or suit, why not do something along the same lines but negative% for the logi suits?
My lvl5 min logi is squishy enough I don't use my highs for anything but shields, energizers and precision enhancers when i run out of PG.
Closed Beta Vet
Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
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CHANCEtheChAn
0uter.Heaven
604
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Posted - 2014.07.24 15:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:the simpliest fix would be to just give suits weapon slots depending on how combat oriented they are and fix their base stats compared to basic frames.
logi (logi is the least combat oriented suit) => 1xsidearm slot scout => 2xsidearm slots assault => 1x light, 1xsidearm commando => 2xlight heavy/sentintel => 1x heavy, 1x sidearm
that way, the suits that are less combat oriented than others have less firepower. the heavier and more frontline oriented the more firepower.
I promoted a viable fix for the scout class to the CPMs several months ago before 1.8 launched, and I KNEW scouts were gonna be OP in every way
Was to move rifles into a Medium weapon category
This way, what was left in the light weapon category was Snipers, Mass driver, shotguns, PLC, Swarm launcher, etc
So now the scout class should only be allowed to carry a light weapon and a sidearm as most previous 1.8 scouts used to use their sidearms more than primaries anyway
And then move assaults, logis, and Commandos into the medium weapon slots
That way you take away the long/medium range slayer ability of scouts without having to continuously Nerf them into the ground
(Oddly enough, it was shown at the Legion presentation a month or two after that scouts can no longer carry primary weapons until later down the skilltree)
Closed Beta Vet/ Chromosome and Corp battle Vet/ Uprising 1.0-Now PC vet
Ex D.F. Director
Current Inner.Hell Director
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2483
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Posted - 2014.07.24 15:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
CHANCEtheChAn wrote:And to the OP
Whoa
These buffs are a little bit overkill
Ide love to talk about it but its too early in the AM
*Reserved for future discussion*
Are you referring to the bonuses themselves, or the number of them? If you had to remove one or more of the listed bonuses, which would you pick and why?
Jack McReady wrote:the simpliest fix would be to just give suits weapon slots depending on how combat oriented they are and fix their base stats compared to basic frames.
logi (logi is the least combat oriented suit) => 1xsidearm slot scout => 2xsidearm slots assault => 1x light, 1xsidearm commando => 2xlight heavy/sentintel => 1x heavy, 1x sidearm
that way, the suits that are less combat oriented than others have less firepower. the heavier and more frontline oriented the more firepower.
I feel that while Logistics should not be direct combat, it does still more indirect combat/support capabilities and moving to sidearm only really gimps that part of its role. I think there are better ways to go about doing this. In regards to the concept of Medium weapons, that is certainly an idea worth looking into for Legion but at the moment I'm more focused of properly balancing Dust the best we can, and Medium weapons are unfortunatly not a possibility.
Mister Goo wrote:Pokey I agree with most of your suggestions except the repair tool bonus to all logi suits and slot arrangement.
If your going to give all suits the bonus to the repair tools why not go back to all equipment works the same on all Logi suits? The most important things in battle are getting there quickly (Amar Bonus), resupply (Cal bonus), Scans (Gal bonus), and Repair (Min Bonus). The nano injectors should work the same on all suits. I like that CCP makes you choose what you want to specialize in and the particular bonus that each race receives.
I do think that the repair tools should be put back to their original repair numbers so everyone can be effective with a repair tool only minnies will be able to with handle more DPS.
Slot arrangements also should not be changed. Slayer logi fears are real and they have been abused as FOTM before but instead of removing a complete slot, maybe do an overall negetive % to damage mods and double the stacking penalty for all logi suits. They can put an overall positive % to damage for a race or suit, why not do something along the same lines but negative% for the logi suits?
My lvl5 min logi is squishy enough I don't use my highs for anything but shields, energizers and precision enhancers when i run out of PG.
The issue is that in high level PC play, the Minmatar suit is almost exclusively used because of its repair bonus. I'd like to try and make all of the suits to be considered viable in all game modes, and I also feel that repairs are really a function of Logistics regardless of what subrole you're playing, and that there is also a demand for a class that specializes in indirect defense (ie remotes/proxies). So you've got all suits capable of keeping armor repaired, and then you can pick between Troop Deployment (Uplinks), Gathering Intel (Scans), Resupply (Hives), and Battlefield Control (Remotes/Proxies). It also means that while you have 3-4 equipment slots, you're not restricted to a single piece of equipment which gains a bonus, which I think is a good thing.
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by removal of a slot. I'm speaking more on making the Logi's base HP very similar to the Assaults and then giving them the same slots as an assault, minus 1 slot. You see this with Commandos and Sentinels, each having high buffer HP and similar slot layouts, though the Commando has 1 less slot on their main rack (ie GalSentinel is 1H/4L and Gallmmando is 1H/3L)
I also really try to avoid breaking existing game mechanics just to force a result, such as making damage mods perform different depending on which suit. Suits can offer a bonus to something, but I feel like you should never have a negative effect for equipping sometime. I also always try to avoid breaking the way stacking penalties work. There are usually far more eloquent solutions to such problems
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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