DUST Search - Logistics // Assaults // Commandos & How They Relate

Jack McReady wrote:

the simpliest fix would be to just give suits weapon slots depending on how combat oriented they are and fix their base stats compared to basic frames.

logi (logi is the least combat oriented suit) => 1xsidearm slot
scout => 2xsidearm slots
assault => 1x light, 1xsidearm
commando => 2xlight
heavy/sentintel => 1x heavy, 1x sidearm

that way, the suits that are less combat oriented than others have less firepower. the heavier and more frontline oriented the more firepower.

Mister Goo wrote:

Pokey I agree with most of your suggestions except the repair tool bonus to all logi suits and slot arrangement.

If your going to give all suits the bonus to the repair tools why not go back to all equipment works the same on all Logi suits? The most important things in battle are getting there quickly (Amar Bonus), resupply (Cal bonus), Scans (Gal bonus), and Repair (Min Bonus). The nano injectors should work the same on all suits. I like that CCP makes you choose what you want to specialize in and the particular bonus that each race receives.

I do think that the repair tools should be put back to their original repair numbers so everyone can be effective with a repair tool only minnies will be able to with handle more DPS.

Slot arrangements also should not be changed. Slayer logi fears are real and they have been abused as FOTM before but instead of removing a complete slot, maybe do an overall negetive % to damage mods and double the stacking penalty for all logi suits. They can put an overall positive % to damage for a race or suit, why not do something along the same lines but negative% for the logi suits?

My lvl5 min logi is squishy enough I don't use my highs for anything but shields, energizers and precision enhancers when i run out of PG.


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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2458	Posted - 2014.07.23 17:33:00 - [1] - Quote There has been a lot of chatter on these topics lately and I think the community has put together some really solid ideas. I thought I'd add some method to the madness and compile the general concepts into a spreadsheet to get some more direct feedback on the concepts at hand. Note that listed percentages are not final and are just preliminary values to get the idea across. Here are the general principles being the concepts discussed in the community: Core Principles: Medium Frames in general need to be more survivable, though Logistics to a lesser extent than Assaults. Medium Frames should focus on HP regeneration and movement, and less on adding raw HP Minmatar Logistics is overly preferred in high level play, primarily because of its Repair Tool, making other Logistics less desirable. Currently lacking suit that specializes in indirect AV (Remotes/Proxies) Assaults need something intangible that other suits can't replicate, such as grenade capacity/damage Commando is redundant and performs the Assault role better than the Assault Commando is slower and more suited for a Defensive/Suppressive role rather than assault. Modifying Fire Rate of weapons modifies effective minimum range and has no effect on semi-auto weapons, and therefor should be avoided as a means to increase DPS. Concepts to Consider: Normalizing Logistics Slot Layouts to be more similar to Assaults Normalizing Logistics HP to be more similar to Assaults Lowering Logistics base PG/CPU but drastically increasing fitting reduction bonus for Equipment for effective PG/CPU are the same, but only when using equipment. Current Conceptual Problems: Minmatar Commando needs another suppression bonus Minmatar Assault Bonus is too similar to Commando Role Bonus Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G7rSyT1rD-7q9xz8n4uqAFtqCtc6841cmx0vlf4IRSE/edit?usp=sharing Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2459	Posted - 2014.07.23 18:07:00 - [2] - Quote Glantix wrote: +1 This I can get behind. I feel like that you have proposed too many bonuses, but at the same time I feel like this is what is necessary to make the frames viable. With the exception of the Logistics, I think you should drop the bonus to the respective armour/shield modules and leave it to just the Assaults, but that is just me. I also wanted to mention I love the bonus you came up with for the Amarr Commando, it is so creative and it fits the role perfectly. I love the Minmatar Logistics' bonus as well. I will try brainstorming ideas for the Minmatar Commando's second bonus, and will post what I come up with later. I know people are very scared of the "Slayer Logi" that we all dealt with for so long, but I'm also under the opinion that a dead logi is a useless logi. Giving the Logis a similar but weaker defensive bonus compared to the Assaults allows them to be more survivable against other suits, but their lack of offensive bonuses and weaker defensive bonuses make them inferior to the Assault in regards to being an offensive unit. As for the large amount of bonuses, yes I agree it's a lot. On the other hand however, all of the race specific bonuses require the use of a specific rae of weapon or type of module to gain the benefit. This is in contrast to Scouts and Sentinels which receive their full benefit regardless of what they equip. That being said I think the addition of additional bonuses that are more restrict is fairly well balanced against less bonuses which are always on and beneficial. Also I can't take credit for the Amarr Commando Bonus, that was originally pitched to me by Aeon Amadi and I just kinda rolled with it. In fact the Commando as a Supressive unit concept in general was his idea, I just fleshed out the other 3 racial bonuses. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2460	Posted - 2014.07.23 18:24:00 - [3] - Quote Glantix wrote: The point you raised about Logi's is fair, but you never no until you see it in action, so I hope these idea's get used in hotfix echo or a later hotfix. I also came up with a second bonus for the Minmando, and threw it up in my first post. Indeed. My main concern is while the Assault clearly needs to be buffed up, I don't want to Logi to then completely fall behind the other suits in the proccess. How I would like to do it ideally, is tie that defensive bonus to the Frame Suit skill, so that for example the Caldari Assault would get +5% to Shield Rechargers for every level of Caldari Medium Frames they have trained. The Logistics would then get a +3% for every level of Caldari Medium Frames trained. Essentially you give the Frame skill a purpose, as well as tie a general tanking theme to the frame and all specialties in that group. In this case Medium frames as a whole would focus on HP regen and movement. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2461	Posted - 2014.07.23 18:37:00 - [4] - Quote Glantix wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Glantix wrote: The point you raised about Logi's is fair, but you never no until you see it in action, so I hope these idea's get used in hotfix echo or a later hotfix. I also came up with a second bonus for the Minmando, and threw it up in my first post. Indeed. My main concern is while the Assault clearly needs to be buffed up, I don't want to Logi to then completely fall behind the other suits in the proccess. How I would like to do it ideally, is tie that defensive bonus to the Frame Suit skill, so that for example the Caldari Assault would get +5% to Shield Rechargers for every level of Caldari Medium Frames they have trained. The Logistics would then get a +3% for every level of Caldari Medium Frames trained. Essentially you give the Frame skill a purpose, as well as tie a general tanking theme to the frame and all specialties in that group. In this case Medium frames as a whole would focus on HP regen and movement. Now this I can REALLY get behind. It gives purpose to an otherwise near-useless skil. It also is new player friendly, as to get basic Assualt/Logi they will need to to have med frame at three, which means they will start with a 9%/15% bonus depending on the suit they choose. Yep, exactly. Also gives vets a means to spec a little deeper into their role by leveling the frame to IV and V. It also means that you can train up and max out Assaults, and if you move to Logi of the same race you start off with that level 3-5 frame skill already trained and get a nice boost to Logi right from the get-go. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2461	Posted - 2014.07.23 19:49:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Frankly, Pokey, the race up HP mountain has been rather ridiculous since Uprising. Where does it end? Logis can already break 1000HP. Get any higher, you'll have to boost Sentinel HP. Again. What part are you looking at specifically that increases HP? Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2462	Posted - 2014.07.23 20:19:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Frankly, Pokey, the race up HP mountain has been rather ridiculous since Uprising. Where does it end? Logis can already break 1000HP. Get any higher, you'll have to boost Sentinel HP. Again. What part are you looking at specifically that increases HP? * Normalizing Logistics Slot Layouts to be more similar to Assaults ^ I took this mean that you want another high/low slot in the event that assault frames receive one; pardon me if I misunderstood this point. I also made mental note of the HP-specific bonuses listed in your spreadsheet under Logistics. Ah ok so I probably wasn't very clear, so let me clarify. So the issue was that Logis have tons of slots "for flexibility" and tons of resources so they can run both equipment, and tons of slots. Players would skip equipment, which would effectivly free up a ton of resources they would pour into HP mods and fill their ample slots with Complex mods and then reach insane levels of HP. This is bad and I dont support it. Now I'm not a fan of "Logi's should have fill all of their equipment" concept, I think its crude and unimaginitive. So you have a couple issues here. 1. Lots of slots to stack HP mods. 2. Excessive resources that can be used for high level defensive modules, exceeding the abilities of an Assault. So first of all lets give the Logis a similar number of slots to an Assault. There are not enough modules in the game to really have much flexibility anyways, especially since EWAR belongs to the scouts now. I'd give the Assaults probably 1 more module than the Logi on their main defensive rack (Cal and Min +1 High, Gal and Amm +1 Low. Much like Commandos and Sentinels). So already the Assault is going to be superior slot wise. So what about resources? Well lets give them roughly the same PG and CPU, so now even if the Logi doesnt use equipment, he cant exceed the defensive capabilities of the Assault. On top of that, lets assume a Logi is using 4 equipment and an Assault has 1. If they rough have the same slots and resources, that means the Logi needs to also be able to equip 3 more equipment than the assault, but do so with the same PG and CPU. So lets bump up the Reduction bonus to around 15% a level, so a 75% reduction at level 5 makes 4 equip cost roughly the same as 1. So in summary, even if a Logi equips no equipment, his resource pool is no greater than an assault, and he's also missing that extra slot. So there is no way to make that Logi superior to that assault, even if you skip equipment. However his equipment is so cheap to fit, that he doesnt really lose much in terms of defense if he uses the equipment, thus encouraging its use without allowing for abuse. You'll also notice that in the spreadsheet, the Logis receive the same bonuses at an Assault, but only 3% instead of the Assault's 5%. In addition, none of those bonuses increase HP, only the rate at which those suits can rengenerate lost HP. The outlyer is the Amarr in that it gets a reduction to speed penalty, however while that helps it fit more plates with less of a downside, it doesn't actually increase the HP at all. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2462	Posted - 2014.07.23 20:27:00 - [7] - Quote Meee One wrote: Logistics only advantage stat wise is cpu/pg and you want to take that away and still leave them easier to kill? If this happens i'm going to need a respec,i went into the min to rep not to use REs. I'll go back to Gal where my chances of survival are higher. This type of nonsensical 'balance' is what you get when a non-logi tries to 'balance' things. You really should take a closer look at the spreadsheet. I moved the Rep tool to be a bonus for ALL logi suits, and replaced the Minmatar bonus with the remove/proxy bonus. So if anything the Minmtar gets to keep repping as it has been and gains another bonus. No respec needed. I also suggest you take a look at the response I just gave Nothi. Overall this would lead to an increase in survivability for Logis, though not allow them to exceed that of an Assault, while still remaining sustainable and viable in a hot zone. Also I have Minmatar Logi V and have been using it for years. This is what happens when a poster doesnt properly read a post and attempts to 'respond' in a snarky fashion. I don't mean to be rude but please don't toss around assumptions that I dont know what I'm talking about before you properly understand the concept being presented. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2462	Posted - 2014.07.23 20:48:00 - [8] - Quote Meee One wrote: Proof you're a non-logi fearmonger. You haven't even taken into consideration that CCP will be adding more modules that boost equipment efficiency. You just want logistics to lose a slot for no other reason than to do so. Oh really? Do you have a post detailing these modules that are being added? I must have missed that one. Look at this way dude. This is roughly what Id be proposing in a nutshell. AFter all is said and done, a Logi, fully fitted, will have the same defensive abilities as as an Assault. Difference is 1 less slot than the ASsault. And a 15% regen bonus instead of +25% the Assault gets. What part of that do you dislike? Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2462	Posted - 2014.07.23 20:55:00 - [9] - Quote Meee One wrote: Oh i understand the concept,but to be blunt. It's stupid. Amarr would be the go-to logi then,reps and uplinks? That's PC gold Unless you want uplinks or scans or remotes & proxies of course. But hey feedback is good, I appreciate your opinion. Most of this was driven in various Logi and Assault threads, I just compiled a lot of it. Can't expect everyone to agree, that's what makes the world interesting! I appreciate your throughts and insight. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2462	Posted - 2014.07.23 21:11:00 - [10] - Quote Meee One wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Meee One wrote: Proof you're a non-logi fearmonger. You haven't even taken into consideration that CCP will be adding more modules that boost equipment efficiency. You just want logistics to lose a slot for no other reason than to do so. Oh really? Do you have a post detailing these modules that are being added? I must have missed that one. Look at this way dude. This is roughly what Id be proposing in a nutshell. AFter all is said and done, a Logi, fully fitted, will have the same defensive abilities as as an Assault. Difference is 1 less slot than the ASsault. And a 15% regen bonus instead of +25% the Assault gets. What part of that do you dislike? http://dust514.com/news/2014/03/equipment-uprising-1.8/ paragraph right above the first picture. (active scanner changes) I think you're confused, that post was from March earlier this year. Those changes have already been implemented. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2463	Posted - 2014.07.23 21:25:00 - [11] - Quote Ah you're right, I missed that line, my apologies. I worry that we're likely past that level of Development because of Legion thought But that's fine if you want to be rude about it, I don't mind. Meee One wrote: The part i dislike is that you're saying essentially that logistics doesn't have as much right to live as it's white cousin. Logistics and assault are equal,one is not better than the other. Except in one place: Assaults would be killing. Logistics would support. Assaults and logistics should symbiotic not parasitic. I completely understand the sentiment, however I think completely equal isn't quite appropriate either. Assaults will be directly assaulting enemy forces, while Logi's interaction with enemies is more indirect. It's that difference that drives the concept that the Assaults need to be a bit more survivable, since they'll be in the direct line of fire more often than a Logi is. Logi survivability still needs to be high, but Assaults needs to have a bit more. It's fine if you dont agree though, just a difference of opinion. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2463	Posted - 2014.07.23 21:29:00 - [12] - Quote Meee One wrote: Yes,but changes that happen to suits in Dust on PS3 will carry over to Dust on PC. Which is why i'm mentioning this now. Thats not actually a guaranteed. Already we've seen some big differences between Dust and Legion, such as the removal of the Commando from Legion. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2463	Posted - 2014.07.23 21:36:00 - [13] - Quote Well I think you're being a bit biased, but again difference of opinion. I think you would be hard pressed to find a lot of people who think Logis and Assaults should have identical survivability. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2463	Posted - 2014.07.23 21:41:00 - [14] - Quote Meee One wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Well I think you're being a bit biased, but again difference of opinion. I think you would be hard pressed to find a lot of people who think Logis and Assaults should have identical survivability. Because they simply don't respect logistics. Assaults shouldn't accell at survival that's a heavies job,assaults should accell at killing. And you're saying that personal defense isn't part of the killing role? Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2477	Posted - 2014.07.24 06:00:00 - [15] - Quote Lanius Pulvis wrote: Pokey, +1 on the proposals (I know, a lot came from other threads), but -1 on continuing to respond to Meee. It's clear by now he's not interested in reasoned discussion, so save your proverbial breath. Yeah he's being pretty one sided and biased without interest in proper discussion, I'm done with him. And yeah lots of fantastic ideas flying around, the community has really has put out some great stuff lately. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2483	Posted - 2014.07.24 15:52:00 - [16] - Quote CHANCEtheChAn wrote: And to the OP Whoa These buffs are a little bit overkill Ide love to talk about it but its too early in the AM Reserved for future discussion Are you referring to the bonuses themselves, or the number of them? If you had to remove one or more of the listed bonuses, which would you pick and why? Jack McReady wrote: the simpliest fix would be to just give suits weapon slots depending on how combat oriented they are and fix their base stats compared to basic frames. logi (logi is the least combat oriented suit) => 1xsidearm slot scout => 2xsidearm slots assault => 1x light, 1xsidearm commando => 2xlight heavy/sentintel => 1x heavy, 1x sidearm that way, the suits that are less combat oriented than others have less firepower. the heavier and more frontline oriented the more firepower. I feel that while Logistics should not be direct combat, it does still more indirect combat/support capabilities and moving to sidearm only really gimps that part of its role. I think there are better ways to go about doing this. In regards to the concept of Medium weapons, that is certainly an idea worth looking into for Legion but at the moment I'm more focused of properly balancing Dust the best we can, and Medium weapons are unfortunatly not a possibility. Mister Goo wrote: Pokey I agree with most of your suggestions except the repair tool bonus to all logi suits and slot arrangement. If your going to give all suits the bonus to the repair tools why not go back to all equipment works the same on all Logi suits? The most important things in battle are getting there quickly (Amar Bonus), resupply (Cal bonus), Scans (Gal bonus), and Repair (Min Bonus). The nano injectors should work the same on all suits. I like that CCP makes you choose what you want to specialize in and the particular bonus that each race receives. I do think that the repair tools should be put back to their original repair numbers so everyone can be effective with a repair tool only minnies will be able to with handle more DPS. Slot arrangements also should not be changed. Slayer logi fears are real and they have been abused as FOTM before but instead of removing a complete slot, maybe do an overall negetive % to damage mods and double the stacking penalty for all logi suits. They can put an overall positive % to damage for a race or suit, why not do something along the same lines but negative% for the logi suits? My lvl5 min logi is squishy enough I don't use my highs for anything but shields, energizers and precision enhancers when i run out of PG. The issue is that in high level PC play, the Minmatar suit is almost exclusively used because of its repair bonus. I'd like to try and make all of the suits to be considered viable in all game modes, and I also feel that repairs are really a function of Logistics regardless of what subrole you're playing, and that there is also a demand for a class that specializes in indirect defense (ie remotes/proxies). So you've got all suits capable of keeping armor repaired, and then you can pick between Troop Deployment (Uplinks), Gathering Intel (Scans), Resupply (Hives), and Battlefield Control (Remotes/Proxies). It also means that while you have 3-4 equipment slots, you're not restricted to a single piece of equipment which gains a bonus, which I think is a good thing. I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by removal of a slot. I'm speaking more on making the Logi's base HP very similar to the Assaults and then giving them the same slots as an assault, minus 1 slot. You see this with Commandos and Sentinels, each having high buffer HP and similar slot layouts, though the Commando has 1 less slot on their main rack (ie GalSentinel is 1H/4L and Gallmmando is 1H/3L) I also really try to avoid breaking existing game mechanics just to force a result, such as making damage mods perform different depending on which suit. Suits can offer a bonus to something, but I feel like you should never have a negative effect for equipping sometime. I also always try to avoid breaking the way stacking penalties work. There are usually far more eloquent solutions to such problems Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1