No. This change needs to happen. It solves a number of issues simultaneously. It's not perfect, but it's a good move. Along with the other changes, we should have 4 viable(ish) scouts suits.

Agreed that the Cal range bonus needs to be substantial. I would go with 10% per level, getting them to 45m unassisted. If it's changed to module efficacy at some point then it may need to be raised to 15% a level, as the Cal will be forced to give up dampening to use their bonus, so it needs to be a good bonus to be worth it.

o7

TL;DR- Caldari scouts should have a bonus to scan precision and Amarr scouts should be given the scan range bonus.

So before I get all the QQ about "Cal scout's OP," yes I agree that it does need a nerf. However, the proposed "fix" is completely unfair to those who skilled into the Cal suit purely for its EWar bonus.

I skilled into the suit because I liked its shield regen and speed, but predominantly for its scan strength bonus. Despite only having a few million skill points into infantry skills, the bulk of them are into Proto Cal scouts and almost perfect scan skills (all 5 except lvl 4 range). I never have fewer than 2 EWar mods on all my suits and have never put an armor plate on any Cal scout suit. The average ehp of even my Proto scouts is <400.

But enough anecdote. The precision skill will be wasted on the Amarr scout. Even with all lvl5 skills and 2 complex precision mods, any scout with 2 complex damps and an advanced cloak (or 2 complex damps and any other damp) can dodge it. Not to mention that a Gal scout only needs a complex and basic damp to dodge it.

The bonus is redundant for anything above a scout suit since any scout can already easily scan every med and heavy suit. It's supposed to be a scout hunter, but that's totally useless if EVERY scout can easily dodge it at its prime.

Now consider the Cal scout currently: Most fits use 1 or 2 precision mods, which can be dodged as I said above by every scout. But if a Cal scout wants to go full EWar, it still has 1-2 more high slots to use for more precision mods. This is a niche that only the Cal can and should fill.

A scan range bonus makes more sense on an Amarr scout. Since it's most often used as a "light assault" suit the suit is best suited for fast face-to-face combat, so knowing what is where would be very important.

To address a point proponents of the proposed change have made (I think it was IWS or a Dev, I don't remember): "The new bonus' modules won't interfere with the the primary tank of the two suits." (Or something to that effect) This is rubbish. The primary tank of a Cal scout isn't it's tank at all, it's its EWar. It's few low slots should almost always be filled with dampeners to avoid other scouts so there's no room for range amps, which would be pretty useless without its precision bonus anyway.

Lastly, and sort of off topic, whichever scout does get the pure range bonus, please make it worth actually skilling up for. The current 3% per level gives a whopping 3m. Even the 25% bonus only gave 5m. If this is going to be the only bonus a scout gets, it needs to be better than the militia module. I'm thinking another 10% per level or so (at max skills that's be 40m).

I hope this manages to change the current decision. Without my Cal's precision, it can't be used for anything but a cloaky assault. Please don't destroy it's niche.

Be more specific as to what "issues" are fixed. We can't debate on vague implications.

I see far more problems being created then fixed: Amarr gets a useless bonus because it can't scan other scouts. Caldari gets an almost useless bonus because it can scan a bit farther but it's still lame since it can't scan scouts, not to mention can't use its bonused mods because it needs dampeners to hid from scouts (that it can't scan).

And a Cal scout lvl5 only with a 10% bonus would get a 30m scan range (40m w/ scan range lvl5). Please learn math before I take you seriously.

-snip-

I'll be fine with a range amp bonus instead.

I apologize for my comment about math. I thought the bonuses were additive, not multiplicative (As in it's Base*Bonus1*Bonus2 not Base+Base*Bonus1+Base*Bonus2). I looked at ProtoFits and saw that you're right. Again, I apologize for insulting you.

Your point supporting Amarr scan bonus doesn't hold up though. All scouts can already scan med suits and above easily, and I showed that every scout can evade it rather easily (especially the Gal scout). The only use for a scan precision bonus on a scout suit is to scan heavily dampened scouts, which even at its fullest the Amarr simply cannot do. It makes Gal scouts unmatched in EWar and encourages scout usage with almost nothing to counter them. It's a worthless bonus.

As I've said, most Cal scout only have 1-2 Precision enhancers, which can be beaten by any scout that wants to try (which is more balanced than the Amarr having the bonus because it must sacrifice its tank or dampening). However, if a Cal scout wants to forgo all tank and be a walking scanner, he has that ability as a hard counter to most scouts. This seems OP, but so is a proto tank with no AV on the field. It's not like Cal scouts don't have a weakness. Cal scouts still cannot scan Gal scouts and once the Cal scout is dead he's worthless to the team. Gal logies can also easily scan the Cal scout.

The point now is there there's really no point not to run scouts if nothing can scan them. All they have to do is always be under the Amarr and be sneaky and they're home free with no counters. Cal scouts currently can curb the abuse of scouts by either illuminating them to their teammates (by sacrificing their combat effectiveness) and encouraging heavier suits to be used instead, or forcing Gal scouts to ++ber dampen and reduce their tank all together (since they'll need equal complex damps to the Cals precisions). That will not happen with Amarr scouts.

TL;DR Cal scouts are a hard counter to scout abuse. They encourage heavier suit usage and serve as a competitor for Gal scouts. Amarr scouts cannot compete with this and I believe this will lead to more scout abuse.

idgaf what you say, I skilled into cal scout because i am a hunter, I AM NOT SPENDING A WHOLE MONTH GRINDING FOR A NEW PROTO SUIT CLASS. either give a respec or i am done. as i stated in hotfix charlie thread i am sick and tired of scrubs who do not know how to counter a fit coming to the forums saying it is op and causing it to be nerfed(blaster turret, rail turret,vehicle repair mod,gallente scout,cal scout has been nerfed. now you plan on nerfing cal scout again not to mention hmg)

rattati you have done a lot to balance this game and i appreciate it but if you nerf the same suit class TWICE you should at least provide a respec in that class.

Before anybody says it's not a nerf its just gonna be switched to range, you are an idiot that obviously never been in pc, range is f'n pointless if you can't see them to begin with and i'm not giving 3 OF MY 4 HIGH SLOTS to see a GAL SCOUT WITH ONE F'N COMPLEX DAMPENER. That is a imbalance i refuse to accept and i will drop this game if implemented w/o respec

Oh no you'll actually have to use your eyes sometimes. Cut the BS dude, if you wanna scan the entire map, dedicate your whole suit to it. How is anyone supposed to counter a suit which scans everything and has 400 shield with 50hp/s? About all you can do is either be another FOTM scout or sit in a corner with a HMG. The cal scout bonus needed to be changed as it made every assault useless and was far better than the other scouts. Go ahead and leave, nobody cares.

I haven't delved too far into the conversation because I'm sure it's going on somewhere that I don't feel like digging for it but long story short: if the Cal loses it's precision, the Amarr only has 2 high slots which limits the amount of precision it can have.

By lowering the max precision a hunter scout can have you're indirectly buffing the gal scout some more. Yay! More free low slots aka armor for those invisible gal scouts! :D

But what do I know? I'm just like a dude who can see the future of the meta.

Apology more than accepted.

I understand where you're coming from, but the Cal isn't the hard counter to scout abuse. Currently, it is the scout abuse, and the only counter is the Gal. The meta has moved from the Gal brick-tanked shotgun scout to Cal perma scanners. The ability to scan down everything in game except the Gal scout and share it with 5 other players mean that, at the competitive tier, no scouts are played except perma-scan Cals and perma-damped Gal's to couter them. It's not balanced, and precision is at the core of that imbalance.

The preferred option was for shared passive scans to be removed so that scouts would either need to share their vision through the use of active scanners, inform their squad verbally, or go hunting themselves. That's not technically feasible at the moment (as CCP Rattati has informed us), so this is an alternate fix within the system we currently have.

The proposed changes under Charlie is the best fix we've seen within the current system. It's not great, because the current system is inherently broken and needs to be re-worked from the ground up, so it's what we've got to try and give all scouts a role.

As for the Amarr, you are correct, all Scouts can and do scan down heavies and (most) assaults. The Amarr will now be able to do so better than the Gal and (if the bonus is 5% a level) the Min, while the Cal remains the true king of precision scanning due to slot configuration. The Amarr retains a greater potential range and/or the ability to stack dampening, which gives them an advantage over the Cal, while they are unable to sideline other scouts due to excessive precision. The Amarr benefits because they're actually a realistic option in both solo and squad play now, and the Min benefits because they are reasonably able to avoid passive scans, which was driving them out of PC.

As for the Gal...yep. They're invisible. And can still brick tank if they chose. That doesn't get fixed through these changes. That should hopefully come with the change to efficacy bonuses instead of inherant bonuses. But until then, they remain fairly much the same. But passive vision is always more powerful than passive invisibility. And the Gal lacks the ability to see other scouts, which just put's them on an even footing with other dampened scouts.

Racially, it's Caldari. Caldari are all about that Range look at rail weapons.

It would be more useful, for your Rail weapon, if you had a longer scan range, than a short stubby precise one. Whereas the Amarr are slower and armor heavier but are without an innate armor rep. They are truly picked on by other scouts they lack the defense mechanisms to bite back. However giving them precision makes them less susceptible to scout harassment and gives them the racial "Eye of God" omniscience. It fits much better this way in my opinion and CCP sort of agrees.

As for the High slot count argument, on my Gallente Scout I fit dual precision enhancers and can spot many many many foolish scouts (get around 23 in precision) If I can drop over 10 points in precision from 2 slots without a bonus I think the Amarr will be well off with a bonus and 2 high slots.

Lol you just wanna run around with a scr or cr strafe and kill everything lolgtfo.

Cal should get range Deal with it :)

To remain racially aligned... Amarr are usually close range brawlers while Caldari are long range. It would make more sense in that context to give Amarr the precision and keep the range bonus on Caldari.

However, as it does completely change the way a suit work, a refund of Caldari Scout SP should be in order. Making it correct and refunding SP is the better option than leaving it wrong "just because".

I resent that the shared sight feature is a problem. It makes scout's jobs of "scouting" much easier and it even gives snipers a somewhat useful role since they can scan through walls and landmasses, pinpointing specific targets. Removing it would also discourage teamwork to a degree and reduce the value of scouts as a whole.

Not to pull out anecdotes, but there have been multiple times that a team I've been on was getting wrecked in a city by cloaked scouts, and all I did was pull out a "superscan" Cal and we turned the tables.

I have to ask, and not to be rude, but what will keep all scouts balanced without a useable "scout-hunter?" Even with maxed precision, a Cal scout without the scan bonus is still worse than the proposed Amarr scout (Amarr w/ 2 is about 17.8, Cal w/ 5 and no skill is 19.89). Every scout can dodge the Amarr.

let me clarify, i chose cal scout(at release of 1.8) because i knew cloaking and dampening would be a huge pain in the ass and it would be much easier to counter with cal.

(atm i didn't know about shared radar) that was my ROLE and after hotfix bravo they nerfed my precision it was no big deal to me cause they nerfed my nemesis the gal scout in alpha

due to alpha the pathetic acr gal scouts(escrow "era") moved to cal scout using **** tactics (with aim assist lol) and at that point i knew i needed to create a counter so i made this fit(viz scr (p.5) ,tt-3 assault scp,1 complex prec.enhancor,3 enhanced shields,1 complex damp,1 complex plate,locus grenade,adv. cloak, and compact hive) and that moment i made a true god killer finishing most of my matches with 30+kills, so yes in the right hands the cal scout is over powered and that does justify a nerf in PROPORTION with other scouts to achieve balance.

However, that doesn't justify changing my role as a anti-scout scout and does call for a RESPEC.

You can get under cal scouts with... wait for it...


Damps.

Oh nuuuuu but where will I put my armor plates?

Unless you're a cal scout yourself then your job is to the see the enemy, not hide from them.

Over the past month, the Scout Community has been working hard to resolve what we consider to be the frame's biggest problems:

1) Under performance of MN and AM Scouts
2) Over performance of GA and CA Scouts
3) FoTM Assault Scouts outperforming Assault Frames
4) CA Scout scans exerting too much pressure on non-GA Scouts

We've covered at length many of the points raised in this thread and many, many others. Long story short, the majority of Old Scouts favor Rattati's proposed change. It isn't perfect, but we believe it to be better than many alternatives, and we believe it to be a step toward better interplay among all four Scouts (rather than just the current two).

You guys really should swing by the Barbershop and read the past 20 or 30 pages. You'll find lots of good (often differing) perspectives on these points from a variety of career-long Scouts, not a single one of whom wishes to prolong/protect the Scout's current FoTM status.