DUST Search - Give Caldari Scouts Scan Precision

Brokerib wrote:

Apology more than accepted.

I understand where you're coming from, but the Cal isn't the hard counter to scout abuse. Currently, it is the scout abuse, and the only counter is the Gal. The meta has moved from the Gal brick-tanked shotgun scout to Cal perma scanners. The ability to scan down everything in game except the Gal scout and share it with 5 other players mean that, at the competitive tier, no scouts are played except perma-scan Cals and perma-damped Gal's to couter them. It's not balanced, and precision is at the core of that imbalance.

The preferred option was for shared passive scans to be removed so that scouts would either need to share their vision through the use of active scanners, inform their squad verbally, or go hunting themselves. That's not technically feasible at the moment (as CCP Rattati has informed us), so this is an alternate fix within the system we currently have.

The proposed changes under Charlie is the best fix we've seen within the current system. It's not great, because the current system is inherently broken and needs to be re-worked from the ground up, so it's what we've got to try and give all scouts a role.

As for the Amarr, you are correct, all Scouts can and do scan down heavies and (most) assaults. The Amarr will now be able to do so better than the Gal and (if the bonus is 5% a level) the Min, while the Cal remains the true king of precision scanning due to slot configuration. The Amarr retains a greater potential range and/or the ability to stack dampening, which gives them an advantage over the Cal, while they are unable to sideline other scouts due to excessive precision. The Amarr benefits because they're actually a realistic option in both solo and squad play now, and the Min benefits because they are reasonably able to avoid passive scans, which was driving them out of PC.

As for the Gal...yep. They're invisible. And can still brick tank if they chose. That doesn't get fixed through these changes. That should hopefully come with the change to efficacy bonuses instead of inherant bonuses. But until then, they remain fairly much the same. But passive vision is always more powerful than passive invisibility. And the Gal lacks the ability to see other scouts, which just put's them on an even footing with other dampened scouts.


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Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1677	Posted - 2014.07.11 02:43:00 - [1] - Quote TL;DR- Caldari scouts should have a bonus to scan precision and Amarr scouts should be given the scan range bonus. So before I get all the QQ about "Cal scout's OP," yes I agree that it does need a nerf. However, the proposed "fix" is completely unfair to those who skilled into the Cal suit purely for its EWar bonus. I skilled into the suit because I liked its shield regen and speed, but predominantly for its scan strength bonus. Despite only having a few million skill points into infantry skills, the bulk of them are into Proto Cal scouts and almost perfect scan skills (all 5 except lvl 4 range). I never have fewer than 2 EWar mods on all my suits and have never put an armor plate on any Cal scout suit. The average ehp of even my Proto scouts is <400. But enough anecdote. The precision skill will be wasted on the Amarr scout. Even with all lvl5 skills and 2 complex precision mods, any scout with 2 complex damps and an advanced cloak (or 2 complex damps and any other damp) can dodge it. Not to mention that a Gal scout only needs a complex and basic damp to dodge it. The bonus is redundant for anything above a scout suit since any scout can already easily scan every med and heavy suit. It's supposed to be a scout hunter, but that's totally useless if EVERY scout can easily dodge it at its prime. Now consider the Cal scout currently: Most fits use 1 or 2 precision mods, which can be dodged as I said above by every scout. But if a Cal scout wants to go full EWar, it still has 1-2 more high slots to use for more precision mods. This is a niche that only the Cal can and should fill. A scan range bonus makes more sense on an Amarr scout. Since it's most often used as a "light assault" suit the suit is best suited for fast face-to-face combat, so knowing what is where would be very important. To address a point proponents of the proposed change have made (I think it was IWS or a Dev, I don't remember): "The new bonus' modules won't interfere with the the primary tank of the two suits." (Or something to that effect) This is rubbish. The primary tank of a Cal scout isn't it's tank at all, it's its EWar. It's few low slots should almost always be filled with dampeners to avoid other scouts so there's no room for range amps, which would be pretty useless without its precision bonus anyway. Lastly, and sort of off topic, whichever scout does get the pure range bonus, please make it worth actually skilling up for. The current 3% per level gives a whopping 3m. Even the 25% bonus only gave 5m. If this is going to be the only bonus a scout gets, it needs to be better than the militia module. I'm thinking another 10% per level or so (at max skills that's be 40m). I hope this manages to change the current decision. Without my Cal's precision, it can't be used for anything but a cloaky assault. Please don't destroy it's niche.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1680	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:19:00 - [2] - Quote Brokerib wrote: No. This change needs to happen. It solves a number of issues simultaneously. It's not perfect, but it's a good move. Along with the other changes, we should have 4 viable(ish) scouts suits. Agreed that the Cal range bonus needs to be substantial. I would go with 10% per level, getting them to 45m unassisted. If it's changed to module efficacy at some point then it may need to be raised to 15% a level, as the Cal will be forced to give up dampening to use their bonus, so it needs to be a good bonus to be worth it. o7 Be more specific as to what "issues" are fixed. We can't debate on vague implications. I see far more problems being created then fixed: Amarr gets a useless bonus because it can't scan other scouts. Caldari gets an almost useless bonus because it can scan a bit farther but it's still lame since it can't scan scouts, not to mention can't use its bonused mods because it needs dampeners to hid from scouts (that it can't scan). And a Cal scout lvl5 only with a 10% bonus would get a 30m scan range (40m w/ scan range lvl5). Please learn math before I take you seriously.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1684	Posted - 2014.07.11 05:00:00 - [3] - Quote Brokerib wrote: -snip- I apologize for my comment about math. I thought the bonuses were additive, not multiplicative (As in it's BaseBonus1Bonus2 not Base+BaseBonus1+BaseBonus2). I looked at ProtoFits and saw that you're right. Again, I apologize for insulting you. Your point supporting Amarr scan bonus doesn't hold up though. All scouts can already scan med suits and above easily, and I showed that every scout can evade it rather easily (especially the Gal scout). The only use for a scan precision bonus on a scout suit is to scan heavily dampened scouts, which even at its fullest the Amarr simply cannot do. It makes Gal scouts unmatched in EWar and encourages scout usage with almost nothing to counter them. It's a worthless bonus. As I've said, most Cal scout only have 1-2 Precision enhancers, which can be beaten by any scout that wants to try (which is more balanced than the Amarr having the bonus because it must sacrifice its tank or dampening). However, if a Cal scout wants to forgo all tank and be a walking scanner, he has that ability as a hard counter to most scouts. This seems OP, but so is a proto tank with no AV on the field. It's not like Cal scouts don't have a weakness. Cal scouts still cannot scan Gal scouts and once the Cal scout is dead he's worthless to the team. Gal logies can also easily scan the Cal scout. The point now is there there's really no point not to run scouts if nothing can scan them. All they have to do is always be under the Amarr and be sneaky and they're home free with no counters. Cal scouts currently can curb the abuse of scouts by either illuminating them to their teammates (by sacrificing their combat effectiveness) and encouraging heavier suits to be used instead, or forcing Gal scouts to ++ber dampen and reduce their tank all together (since they'll need equal complex damps to the Cals precisions). That will not happen with Amarr scouts. TL;DR Cal scouts are a hard counter to scout abuse. They encourage heavier suit usage and serve as a competitor for Gal scouts. Amarr scouts cannot compete with this and I believe this will lead to more scout abuse.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1684	Posted - 2014.07.11 05:04:00 - [4] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: I'll be fine with a range amp bonus instead. For Cal or Amarr?
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1687	Posted - 2014.07.11 08:18:00 - [5] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Apology more than accepted. I understand where you're coming from, but the Cal isn't the hard counter to scout abuse. Currently, it is the scout abuse, and the only counter is the Gal. The meta has moved from the Gal brick-tanked shotgun scout to Cal perma scanners. The ability to scan down everything in game except the Gal scout and share it with 5 other players mean that, at the competitive tier, no scouts are played except perma-scan Cals and perma-damped Gal's to couter them. It's not balanced, and precision is at the core of that imbalance. The preferred option was for shared passive scans to be removed so that scouts would either need to share their vision through the use of active scanners, inform their squad verbally, or go hunting themselves. That's not technically feasible at the moment (as CCP Rattati has informed us), so this is an alternate fix within the system we currently have. The proposed changes under Charlie is the best fix we've seen within the current system. It's not great, because the current system is inherently broken and needs to be re-worked from the ground up, so it's what we've got to try and give all scouts a role. As for the Amarr, you are correct, all Scouts can and do scan down heavies and (most) assaults. The Amarr will now be able to do so better than the Gal and (if the bonus is 5% a level) the Min, while the Cal remains the true king of precision scanning due to slot configuration. The Amarr retains a greater potential range and/or the ability to stack dampening, which gives them an advantage over the Cal, while they are unable to sideline other scouts due to excessive precision. The Amarr benefits because they're actually a realistic option in both solo and squad play now, and the Min benefits because they are reasonably able to avoid passive scans, which was driving them out of PC. As for the Gal...yep. They're invisible. And can still brick tank if they chose. That doesn't get fixed through these changes. That should hopefully come with the change to efficacy bonuses instead of inherant bonuses. But until then, they remain fairly much the same. But passive vision is always more powerful than passive invisibility. And the Gal lacks the ability to see other scouts, which just put's them on an even footing with other dampened scouts. I resent that the shared sight feature is a problem. It makes scout's jobs of "scouting" much easier and it even gives snipers a somewhat useful role since they can scan through walls and landmasses, pinpointing specific targets. Removing it would also discourage teamwork to a degree and reduce the value of scouts as a whole. Not to pull out anecdotes, but there have been multiple times that a team I've been on was getting wrecked in a city by cloaked scouts, and all I did was pull out a "superscan" Cal and we turned the tables. I have to ask, and not to be rude, but what will keep all scouts balanced without a useable "scout-hunter?" Even with maxed precision, a Cal scout without the scan bonus is still worse than the proposed Amarr scout (Amarr w/ 2 is about 17.8, Cal w/ 5 and no skill is 19.89). Every scout can dodge the Amarr.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1687	Posted - 2014.07.11 08:20:00 - [6] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I haven't delved too far into the conversation because I'm sure it's going on somewhere that I don't feel like digging for it but long story short: if the Cal loses it's precision, the Amarr only has 2 high slots which limits the amount of precision it can have. By lowering the max precision a hunter scout can have you're indirectly buffing the gal scout some more. Yay! More free low slots aka armor for those invisible gal scouts! :D But what do I know? I'm just like a dude who can see the future of the meta. Not just the Gal scout, EVERY scout can dodge it with 2 complex damps and an advanced cloak (or another damp if it'll fit).
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1687	Posted - 2014.07.11 08:51:00 - [7] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Racially, it's Caldari. Caldari are all about that Range look at rail weapons. It would be more useful, for your Rail weapon, if you had a longer scan range, than a short stubby precise one. Whereas the Amarr are slower and armor heavier but are without an innate armor rep. They are truly picked on by other scouts they lack the defense mechanisms to bite back. However giving them precision makes them less susceptible to scout harassment and gives them the racial "Eye of God" omniscience. It fits much better this way in my opinion and CCP sort of agrees. As for the High slot count argument, on my Gallente Scout I fit dual precision enhancers and can spot many many many foolish scouts (get around 23 in precision) If I can drop over 10 points in precision from 2 slots without a bonus I think the Amarr will be well off with a bonus and 2 high slots. Caldari are hybrid users just as Gallente are, so they use both rail and blasters. On top of that, they also use missiles, which can be either long range (Swarms) or short (Vehicle misslies). If we're bringing lore into this, then it would make more sense for the Cal and Gal to be in competition with each other. And no, I've already done the math and it says that every scout will be capable of dodging the Amarr scout one way or another (Cal will need a cloak).
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1693	Posted - 2014.07.11 21:09:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Over the past month, the Scout Community has been working hard to resolve what we consider to be the frame's biggest problems: 1) Under performance of MN and AM Scouts 2) Over performance of GA and CA Scouts 3) FoTM Assault Scouts outperforming Assault Frames 4) CA Scout scans exerting too much pressure on non-GA Scouts We've covered at length many of the points raised in this thread and many, many others. Long story short, the majority of Old Scouts favor Rattati's proposed change. It isn't perfect, but we believe it to be better than many alternatives, and we believe it to be a step toward better interplay among all four Scouts (rather than just the current two). You guys really should swing by the Barbershop and read the past 20 or 30 pages. You'll find lots of good (often differing) perspectives on these points from a variety of career-long Scouts, not a single one of whom wishes to prolong/protect the Scout's current FoTM status. Of course scouts would prefer it. Any scout can get under the Amarr relatively easily, it's only the Cal scout currently that can keep other scouts in check via its scans and shared scans with squad mates. I've already said this a thousand times: Most combat Cal scouts only use 1-2 Cplx precision mods, which can be dodged by even another Cal scout (with a cloak). However, this is the limit of the Amarr scout whereas the Cal scout can sacrifice virtually all it's combat effectiveness in exchange for scanning ability. You're basically asking to remove one of the (if not the) only counters to your suit.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1693	Posted - 2014.07.11 23:28:00 - [9] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Under what number assumption do you claim? 5%? 3%? 7%? It's not clear yet so you have wait and see. Then it doesn't matter. Either it's as good as the Cal scout is or it isn't. It it isn't, then it's a worthless bonus. If it is, then it's not fair to me and other people that skilled into the Cal scout purely for its bonus. Not to mention that it will be far worse since it can have amazing scanning AND a tank in its low slots. Seriously, this is a bad idea all around.