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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1600
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Posted - 2014.07.11 03:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
No. This change needs to happen. It solves a number of issues simultaneously. It's not perfect, but it's a good move. Along with the other changes, we should have 4 viable(ish) scouts suits.
Agreed that the Cal range bonus needs to be substantial. I would go with 10% per level, getting them to 45m unassisted. If it's changed to module efficacy at some point then it may need to be raised to 15% a level, as the Cal will be forced to give up dampening to use their bonus, so it needs to be a good bonus to be worth it.
o7
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1600
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Posted - 2014.07.11 03:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Brokerib wrote:No. This change needs to happen. It solves a number of issues simultaneously. It's not perfect, but it's a good move. Along with the other changes, we should have 4 viable(ish) scouts suits.
Agreed that the Cal range bonus needs to be substantial. I would go with 10% per level, getting them to 45m unassisted. If it's changed to module efficacy at some point then it may need to be raised to 15% a level, as the Cal will be forced to give up dampening to use their bonus, so it needs to be a good bonus to be worth it.
o7 Be more specific as to what "issues" are fixed. We can't debate on vague implications. I see far more problems being created then fixed: Amarr gets a useless bonus because it can't scan other scouts. Caldari gets an almost useless bonus because it can scan a bit farther but it's still lame since it can't scan scouts, not to mention can't use its bonused mods because it needs dampeners to hid from scouts (that it can't scan). And a Cal scout lvl5 only with a 10% bonus would get a 30m scan range (40m w/ scan range lvl5). Please learn math before I take you seriously. For a start...
(20*1.5)*1.5 = 45. Not 40. The bonus applied to the modified base score, not the base score itself. "Please learn math before I take you seriously." This passively puts them above (by 1.5m) any other scout with a single complex range amp fitted.
As for the other... The Amarr gets a useful bonus, which they haven't had previously. High precision short range scanning to complement their more tanky nature. This moves them from being completely eclipsed by the Gal, to having some purpose. That purpose is to counter mediums, heavies, and poorly dampened scouts. The lack of high slots means that they can't scan down heavily dampened scouts (though they can still detect poorly dampened scouts, 2 precision enhancers with 5% a level precision bonus puts them at ~17dB scan precision), while their lows mean they can get range, if they forego tank. It's not perfect, but a step in the right direction, and may mean that the Amarr actually gets used.
Removal of precision from the Cal means that the Amarr and Minmatar are no longer marginalised by unbeatable passive scans. The Cal retains the ability (through the range bonus in addition to the highest number of high slots) to scan, at distance, all but the most heavily dampened scouts (~15dB with 4 x complex precision enhancers). Once again, at the cost of tank.
You are correct that the combination of range amps and dampening being in low is an issue for the Cal. Which is why I would support a large inherent bonus to range, as mentioned above. That way the bonus is useful even when lows are used for dampening. But it will mean deciding on a match by match basis on how much dampening you need vs how much range. I am concerned that this puts the Cal in the same position as the Min/Amarr currently, but we'll need to see how it plays out to be sure, as it largely depends on uptake of the Amarr scout or precision stacking the Minmatar, though neither will have the inescapable passive vision providied by the current iteration of the Cal scout.
The Gal remains unscannable, which isn't necessarily a problem as they lack the ability to effectively scan down other scouts (any dual dampened scout cannot be scanned by a Gal), so it effectively puts everyone on an even footing. However, they still have greater versatility and ability to tank than the other scouts while staying passively invisible. Once again, not great, but as not game breaking as the previous iteration.
And finally the Min get's the ability to make use of their hacking bonus (with the move of hacking modules to the high slot), while also getting the ability to remain passively invisible. Due to their balanced slot count they can fit between the Cal and Amarr for range and precision, which makes them versatile at EWAR, but will need to balance vision vs dampening to be effective.
Hopefully that's enough to clarify? The changes put forward in Charlie put us in a position where we are approaching having 4 viable scouting roles. As mentioned in my original post, it's not perfect, but it's an improvement on what we currently have.
My main concern is that the changes will lead to the resurgance of the Gal Logi scannerina, using 4 proto focused active scanners to light up everything. But will need to see how the meta shifts in response to the Charlie changes.
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1603
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Posted - 2014.07.11 07:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:I apologize for my comment about math. I thought the bonuses were additive, not multiplicative (As in it's Base*Bonus1*Bonus2 not Base+Base*Bonus1+Base*Bonus2). I looked at ProtoFits and saw that you're right. Again, I apologize for insulting you. Your point supporting Amarr scan bonus doesn't hold up though. All scouts can already scan med suits and above easily, and I showed that every scout can evade it rather easily (especially the Gal scout). The only use for a scan precision bonus on a scout suit is to scan heavily dampened scouts, which even at its fullest the Amarr simply cannot do. It makes Gal scouts unmatched in EWar and encourages scout usage with almost nothing to counter them. It's a worthless bonus. As I've said, most Cal scout only have 1-2 Precision enhancers, which can be beaten by any scout that wants to try (which is more balanced than the Amarr having the bonus because it must sacrifice its tank or dampening). However, if a Cal scout wants to forgo all tank and be a walking scanner, he has that ability as a hard counter to most scouts. This seems OP, but so is a proto tank with no AV on the field. It's not like Cal scouts don't have a weakness. Cal scouts still cannot scan Gal scouts and once the Cal scout is dead he's worthless to the team. Gal logies can also easily scan the Cal scout. The point now is there there's really no point not to run scouts if nothing can scan them. All they have to do is always be under the Amarr and be sneaky and they're home free with no counters. Cal scouts currently can curb the abuse of scouts by either illuminating them to their teammates (by sacrificing their combat effectiveness) and encouraging heavier suits to be used instead, or forcing Gal scouts to ++ber dampen and reduce their tank all together (since they'll need equal complex damps to the Cals precisions). That will not happen with Amarr scouts. TL;DR Cal scouts are a hard counter to scout abuse. They encourage heavier suit usage and serve as a competitor for Gal scouts. Amarr scouts cannot compete with this and I believe this will lead to more scout abuse. Apology more than accepted.
I understand where you're coming from, but the Cal isn't the hard counter to scout abuse. Currently, it is the scout abuse, and the only counter is the Gal. The meta has moved from the Gal brick-tanked shotgun scout to Cal perma scanners. The ability to scan down everything in game except the Gal scout and share it with 5 other players mean that, at the competitive tier, no scouts are played except perma-scan Cals and perma-damped Gal's to couter them. It's not balanced, and precision is at the core of that imbalance.
The preferred option was for shared passive scans to be removed so that scouts would either need to share their vision through the use of active scanners, inform their squad verbally, or go hunting themselves. That's not technically feasible at the moment (as CCP Rattati has informed us), so this is an alternate fix within the system we currently have.
The proposed changes under Charlie is the best fix we've seen within the current system. It's not great, because the current system is inherently broken and needs to be re-worked from the ground up, so it's what we've got to try and give all scouts a role.
As for the Amarr, you are correct, all Scouts can and do scan down heavies and (most) assaults. The Amarr will now be able to do so better than the Gal and (if the bonus is 5% a level) the Min, while the Cal remains the true king of precision scanning due to slot configuration. The Amarr retains a greater potential range and/or the ability to stack dampening, which gives them an advantage over the Cal, while they are unable to sideline other scouts due to excessive precision. The Amarr benefits because they're actually a realistic option in both solo and squad play now, and the Min benefits because they are reasonably able to avoid passive scans, which was driving them out of PC.
As for the Gal...yep. They're invisible. And can still brick tank if they chose. That doesn't get fixed through these changes. That should hopefully come with the change to efficacy bonuses instead of inherant bonuses. But until then, they remain fairly much the same. But passive vision is always more powerful than passive invisibility. And the Gal lacks the ability to see other scouts, which just put's them on an even footing with other dampened scouts.
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1607
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Posted - 2014.07.11 11:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I resent that the shared sight feature is a problem. It makes scout's jobs of "scouting" much easier and it even gives snipers a somewhat useful role since they can scan through walls and landmasses, pinpointing specific targets. Removing it would also discourage teamwork to a degree and reduce the value of scouts as a whole.
Not to pull out anecdotes, but there have been multiple times that a team I've been on was getting wrecked in a city by cloaked scouts, and all I did was pull out a "superscan" Cal and we turned the tables.
I have to ask, and not to be rude, but what will keep all scouts balanced without a useable "scout-hunter?" Even with maxed precision, a Cal scout without the scan bonus is still worse than the proposed Amarr scout (Amarr w/ 2 is about 17.8, Cal w/ 5 and no skill is 19.89). Every scout can dodge the Amarr.
Resent away, but the scanning system is broken and is exacerbated by shared scans. If we were able to rebuild the scanning system from the ground on up, then shared scans could be fine. As it is currently, it's broken and will remain unbalanced. It makes the scouts job too easy.
No doubt you've been around long enough to remember the endless 360 degree active scanner spam that existed prior to 1.8. The Cal is exactly that, but without any cool downs, without any warning to players who have been scanned, and without any ability to avoid it unless you're a Gal scout, or Min/Amar and fit three proto modules and 1 piece of proto equipment. That's in no way balanced.
Completely agree with the cloaked/dampened scouts being an issue when played as slayers. I have a 'superscanner' fit to combat it as well (Min scout with 3x precision and 3x range amps) though it's not quite as effective. But that issue shouldn't be solved by letting scouts, and anyone they group with, see everything on the map, heavy, medium or light, with no warning and no ability to combat it. It should be fixed by fixing the cloak and fixing the dampening balance.
The removal of shared passives leads to a situation where scouts have to make a decision about their scanning. Either they can report to their team verbally (forcing team interactions), they can scan down the targets using an active scanner (revealing their presence), or they can go hunting targets themselves (putting them at risk). That's scan balance, or at least as close as we can get it within the limitations of the system. Cloak/dampening balance is another matter.
As for how to keep scouts balanced with the loss of Cal precision? Gal Logi. Can scan to the same extend as the Cal scout, but warns those getting scanned, and is time limited. Combine that with fixing the Assault, then there's a good chance that FOTM slayer scouts will migrate away, and scouts can be scouts again.
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1622
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Posted - 2014.07.13 00:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Using anything over two enhancers is worthless......allowing the amarr where its PRIMARY TANK comes from low slots to be able to equip enhancers without sacrifice is bad balance.
Scan bonus should go to suits that will be gimped if they use those modules. Suits which are primarily, shield suits like cal and min. Give the amarr the dampening bonus and give gallente the range bonus. That argument works only and only if efficacy to modules For instance if we continue to give the precision bonus to Caldari it frees up 2 high slots with the 5% bonus. People will look at this like a present on the door step and ignore further pursuing use of precision mods and replace it with tank. Giving them a range bonus frees up a low slot in essence, of which they have very little use for in terms of tank. However at the same time they have the most high slots so they are the best scanner no matter if they tank or not. There is a reason we see Cal Scouts with shields in the hundreds, who are still very able to track down dampened suits. If we had efficacy to module bonuses then, you'd be correct. However we won't until Delta. Then let's petition for all bonuses to go towards efficiacies to the respective modules and not passive. We already have and it's on the table. It is, however, technically complex for CCP to implement. So this is the fix for now, everything will change again once efficacy is worked out. Have a look at the foot notes for Charlie.
Knowledge is power
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1622
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Posted - 2014.07.13 00:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
iKILLu osborne wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Osborne
Ridiculous?
I presently run a max skill CalScout with 3 precision enhancers, 2 range extenders, and 2 prototype active scanners. If in squad, I seldom draw fire (until I decide that I want to ); that right thar is called Low Risk. My squad mates and I see dang near everything in advance of it posing a threat; that's called High Return.
I don't think that I'm OP; I know that I'm OP. yes a cal in squad format is op, try running solo, you can still pick your fights(and win),but at the time your fighting add a tank that rolls by ,some ass a rail rifle that has enough distance you don't see him on tacnet, a fully damp'd gal scout or recieving sniper fire and your good as dead not to mention with the fit you mentioned above you can be seen by any other scout if they removed shared scans with squad problem SOLVED We've already been pushing for that, and it's not technical possible at this time. Check out the foot notes for Charlie, or read up on CCP Rattati's posts in the barbershop. This fix is because the removal of shared passives can't be done easily.
Knowledge is power
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