DUST Search - Heavies are ruining this game for new players

Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote:

More specifically, HMG heavies. As it stands right now, there really are no counters outside of-proto min scout 5 with ishnoks (minimum 5 mil SP investment), Caldari scout with a shotgun (minimum 3.5 mil SP investment), boundless remotes (2 mil SP investment), or another heavy Roll

With scouts, at least if the newbie sees the scout, they can kill it easily enough, but with an HMG heavy, even if the newb shoots first and hits all head shots, the heavy can just turn and kill the poor unfortunate newb in under a second with an HMG, before the newb can kill the heavy Heavies need to have some form of a balancing factor, considering they require the least amount of tactical skill to run, but have the highest amount of reward. Heavy suits themselves do not need much of a nerf, if any. The real problem is the heavy machine gun in combination with the highest HP suit in the game that can turn at the same speed as a triple kincatted minja.

Suggested nerfs for the heavy are a reduction in the range of the HMG in addition to a longer time to "focus" the death ray, as well as greatly increased overheat to reward skilled shooting versus "I'm going to spin in a circle and hold down R1 and kill everything around me".

Disclaimer: I have begun running an HMG heavy, and it is BEYOND easy mode. It is literally unkillable except to people with better HMG's and better heavies if you run it like a scout (read: use tactics to gain an advantage), so take it as you will

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Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 605	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:10:00 - [1] - Quote More specifically, HMG heavies. As it stands right now, there really are no counters outside of-proto min scout 5 with ishnoks (minimum 5 mil SP investment), Caldari scout with a shotgun (minimum 3.5 mil SP investment), boundless remotes (2 mil SP investment), or another heavy With scouts, at least if the newbie sees the scout, they can kill it easily enough, but with an HMG heavy, even if the newb shoots first and hits all head shots, the heavy can just turn and kill the poor unfortunate newb in under a second with an HMG, before the newb can kill the heavy Heavies need to have some form of a balancing factor, considering they require the least amount of tactical skill to run, but have the highest amount of reward. Heavy suits themselves do not need much of a nerf, if any. The real problem is the heavy machine gun in combination with the highest HP suit in the game that can turn at the same speed as a triple kincatted minja. Suggested nerfs for the heavy are a reduction in the range of the HMG in addition to a longer time to "focus" the death ray, as well as greatly increased overheat to reward skilled shooting versus "I'm going to spin in a circle and hold down R1 and kill everything around me". Disclaimer: I have begun running an HMG heavy, and it is BEYOND easy mode. It is literally unkillable except to people with better HMG's and better heavies if you run it like a scout (read: use tactics to gain an advantage), so take it as you will "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 182	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:17:00 - [2] - Quote new players can skill into heavies as well.... and as you said its easy mode... so new players should do fine.
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Final Resolution. 217	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:24:00 - [3] - Quote I find it funny how the scouts are the only ones complaining about heavies. I mean, you are in a weak suit, you shouldn't approach a heavy anywhere near 60 meters since that thing will shred you. But then again, scouts want the easy life now, making us go back to post hot fix Alpha nd make scouts the only viable suit in the game. Heavies are good, I have no problem fighting them as I stay outside from the range that makes them deadly, unless it is a Commando, then you just run staright at him since he is clunky and slow and only carrying light arms. If you are a scout and you only use EWAR then you have my salutes o7 END THE TYRANNY OF BRINK TANKED SCOUTS
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11127	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:27:00 - [4] - Quote Buwaro Draemon wrote: I find it funny how the scouts are the only ones complaining about heavies. I mean, you are in a weak suit, you shouldn't approach a heavy anywhere near 60 meters since that thing will shred you. But then again, scouts want the easy life now, making us go back to post hot fix Alpha nd make scouts the only viable suit in the game. Heavies are good, I have no problem fighting them as I stay outside from the range that makes them deadly, unless it is a Commando, then you just run staright at him since he is clunky and slow and only carrying light arms. Thats the kind of attitude that gets me 1 out of every 3 of my kills. Scouts are idiots who think pseudo invisibility makes them clever. (Disclaimer this is intended to be incendiary, but by not means demean the noble rat-scout class....) " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 607	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:29:00 - [5] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: new players can skill into heavies as well.... and as you said its easy mode... so new players should do fine. Thats the problem though: most new players see "Assault suit" and think that they want to skill into it, do so, then get raped by the HMG once they graduate and never play again. Trust me, the first suit i skilled into was amarr assault, and then callogi because it was the most prevalent, then the min scout cause i wanted to knife people. "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
TechMechMeds Inner.Hell 3676	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:30:00 - [6] - Quote Heavies are fine. I will spam your face with aurum proto.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2906	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:30:00 - [7] - Quote Ok firstly I agree with the turn speed, Heavy Dropsuits should have slower turn rate. We used to have it up until 1.4 I think when it was removed in favour of giving all suits the same uniform rotation speed. However other than that there is no requirement for any further nerfs to either the weapon or the dropsuit. You have to remember the HMG is a close quarters breaching weapon and long range suppression weapon. At further than 25m it just doesn't have the oomph to kill a man. At least not without crouching and aiming DS. All 4 Assault Rifles can drastically out range, even a scrambler or bolt pistol can out range, laser rifles are also effective. Finally the Mass Driver is also incredibly powerful against heavies, in fact from my own personal experience, it performs better against heavies than lighter suits. What's ruining it for new players is they come in expecting to play COD, where everyone is 3-4 shotting each other at 10m with weapons that are IRL designed to be used at +250m. They are ruining around complexes like headless chickens and coming face to face with a heavy and expect tombe able to kill at 10m with a blaster rifle, it's not the HMG that's the problem it's the ingrained ways of playing FPS's in blueberries that is the problem. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 607	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:31:00 - [8] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Buwaro Draemon wrote: I find it funny how the scouts are the only ones complaining about heavies. I mean, you are in a weak suit, you shouldn't approach a heavy anywhere near 60 meters since that thing will shred you. But then again, scouts want the easy life now, making us go back to post hot fix Alpha nd make scouts the only viable suit in the game. Heavies are good, I have no problem fighting them as I stay outside from the range that makes them deadly, unless it is a Commando, then you just run staright at him since he is clunky and slow and only carrying light arms. Thats the kind of attitude that gets me 1 out of every 3 of my kills. Scouts are idiots who think pseudo invisibility makes them clever. (Disclaimer this is intended to be incendiary, but by not means demean the noble rat-scout class....) The only time is use a cloak is to run away or out in the open on a bright map...its literally the most flimsy excuse for invisibility that I've seen... "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
RogueTrooper 2000AD Neckbeard Absolution 98	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:32:00 - [9] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: new players can skill into heavies as well.... and as you said its easy mode... so new players should do fine. Thats the problem though: most new players see "Assault suit" and think that they want to skill into it, do so, then get raped by the HMG once they graduate and never play again. Trust me, the first suit i skilled into was amarr assault, and then callogi because it was the most prevalent, then the min scout cause i wanted to knife people. So we should nerf it because of idiots and newbs?. Also, those are good suits so you must be bad. Service with a smile
DEATH THE KlD Harem. King 10	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:32:00 - [10] - Quote Buwaro Draemon wrote: I find it funny how the scouts are the only ones complaining about heavies. I mean, you are in a weak suit, you shouldn't approach a heavy anywhere near 60 meters since that thing will shred you. But then again, scouts want the easy life now, making us go back to post hot fix Alpha nd make scouts the only viable suit in the game. Heavies are good, I have no problem fighting them as I stay outside from the range that makes them deadly, unless it is a Commando, then you just run staright at him since he is clunky and slow and only carrying light arms. I've complained and I use assault so scouts aren't the only ones. But you know some people actually rush and push objectives personally killing scouts is easy with my assault.

RogueTrooper 2000AD Neckbeard Absolution 98	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:33:00 - [11] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: True Adamance wrote: Buwaro Draemon wrote: I find it funny how the scouts are the only ones complaining about heavies. I mean, you are in a weak suit, you shouldn't approach a heavy anywhere near 60 meters since that thing will shred you. But then again, scouts want the easy life now, making us go back to post hot fix Alpha nd make scouts the only viable suit in the game. Heavies are good, I have no problem fighting them as I stay outside from the range that makes them deadly, unless it is a Commando, then you just run staright at him since he is clunky and slow and only carrying light arms. Thats the kind of attitude that gets me 1 out of every 3 of my kills. Scouts are idiots who think pseudo invisibility makes them clever. (Disclaimer this is intended to be incendiary, but by not means demean the noble rat-scout class....) The only time is use a cloak is to run away or out in the open on a bright map...its literally the most flimsy excuse for invisibility that I've seen... You are one of the most flimsy excuses for a player that I have seen. Service with a smile
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 607	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:34:00 - [12] - Quote RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote: Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: True Adamance wrote: Buwaro Draemon wrote: I find it funny how the scouts are the only ones complaining about heavies. I mean, you are in a weak suit, you shouldn't approach a heavy anywhere near 60 meters since that thing will shred you. But then again, scouts want the easy life now, making us go back to post hot fix Alpha nd make scouts the only viable suit in the game. Heavies are good, I have no problem fighting them as I stay outside from the range that makes them deadly, unless it is a Commando, then you just run staright at him since he is clunky and slow and only carrying light arms. Thats the kind of attitude that gets me 1 out of every 3 of my kills. Scouts are idiots who think pseudo invisibility makes them clever. (Disclaimer this is intended to be incendiary, but by not means demean the noble rat-scout class....) The only time is use a cloak is to run away or out in the open on a bright map...its literally the most flimsy excuse for invisibility that I've seen... You are one of the most flimsy excuses for a player that I have seen. And thats the most flimsy excuse of a troll Ive ever seen. "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
TEBOW BAGGINS Defenders of the Helghast Dream Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1053	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:38:00 - [13] - Quote yea wasn't it scouts who ruined the game for new players? or dropships? or tanks? does it really matter? the game is going PC anyway, there will be new EVE noobs to whine about old stuff there. your worrying about a sinking ship not being appealing to noob ruined the forums for the day. AKA Zirzo Valcyn
Thurak1 Psygod9 785	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:12:00 - [14] - Quote Really anyone that can't kill a heavy is just doing it wrong. Its really easy get a weapon with better range and engage outside of the hmg's optimal range. Heavies dont run fast so you should easily be able to keep outside their optimal and inside your optimal. Its not hard but if your stupid and you charge headlong into a heavy you will be chewed up and spit out.
Tectonic Fusion 1770	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:28:00 - [15] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: True Adamance wrote: Buwaro Draemon wrote: I find it funny how the scouts are the only ones complaining about heavies. I mean, you are in a weak suit, you shouldn't approach a heavy anywhere near 60 meters since that thing will shred you. But then again, scouts want the easy life now, making us go back to post hot fix Alpha nd make scouts the only viable suit in the game. Heavies are good, I have no problem fighting them as I stay outside from the range that makes them deadly, unless it is a Commando, then you just run staright at him since he is clunky and slow and only carrying light arms. Thats the kind of attitude that gets me 1 out of every 3 of my kills. Scouts are idiots who think pseudo invisibility makes them clever. (Disclaimer this is intended to be incendiary, but by not means demean the noble rat-scout class....) The only time is use a cloak is to run away or out in the open on a bright map...its literally the most flimsy excuse for invisibility that I've seen... True, but there is those moments when there are a bunch of heavys coming and you turn on your cloak to hide because they can't scan y-YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED. Oh ****...
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1490	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:28:00 - [16] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: More specifically, HMG heavies. As it stands right now, there really are no counters outside of-proto min scout 5 with ishnoks (minimum 5 mil SP investment), Caldari scout with a shotgun (minimum 3.5 mil SP investment), boundless remotes (2 mil SP investment), or another heavy With scouts, at least if the newbie sees the scout, they can kill it easily enough, but with an HMG heavy, even if the newb shoots first and hits all head shots, the heavy can just turn and kill the poor unfortunate newb in under a second with an HMG, before the newb can kill the heavy Heavies need to have some form of a balancing factor, considering they require the least amount of tactical skill to run, but have the highest amount of reward. Heavy suits themselves do not need much of a nerf, if any. The real problem is the heavy machine gun in combination with the highest HP suit in the game that can turn at the same speed as a triple kincatted minja. Suggested nerfs for the heavy are a reduction in the range of the HMG in addition to a longer time to "focus" the death ray, as well as greatly increased overheat to reward skilled shooting versus "I'm going to spin in a circle and hold down R1 and kill everything around me". Disclaimer: I have begun running an HMG heavy, and it is BEYOND easy mode. It is literally unkillable except to people with better HMG's and better heavies if you run it like a scout (read: use tactics to gain an advantage), so take it as you will insert british naturalist voice here And once again we see a lovely member of the scoutus butthurtious giving it's all too familiar wail in its natural habitat. Science is currently unaware of the precise reason for this iconic call however we do know that when one of these fascinating creatures takes up the call more inevitably join in. Perhaps this is some kind of cry for attention of maybe even a mating call among their kind. One day we may just find the answer... Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
vlad stoich NoGameNoLife 129	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:29:00 - [17] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote: Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: True Adamance wrote: Buwaro Draemon wrote: I find it funny how the scouts are the only ones complaining about heavies. I mean, you are in a weak suit, you shouldn't approach a heavy anywhere near 60 meters since that thing will shred you. But then again, scouts want the easy life now, making us go back to post hot fix Alpha nd make scouts the only viable suit in the game. Heavies are good, I have no problem fighting them as I stay outside from the range that makes them deadly, unless it is a Commando, then you just run staright at him since he is clunky and slow and only carrying light arms. Thats the kind of attitude that gets me 1 out of every 3 of my kills. Scouts are idiots who think pseudo invisibility makes them clever. (Disclaimer this is intended to be incendiary, but by not means demean the noble rat-scout class....) The only time is use a cloak is to run away or out in the open on a bright map...its literally the most flimsy excuse for invisibility that I've seen... You are one of the most flimsy excuses for a player that I have seen. And thats the most flimsy excuse of a troll Ive ever seen. Speaking of flimsy trolls, this whole OP is weak as sh!t. Quit b!tching and whining. Heavies are the slowest with the biggest hit boxes. If you cant hit them from a distance than you should be using teamwork with other scouts. Use one as a distraction other move in with remotes or for the kill. But for gods sake enough with all the crying and asking for nerfs on everything.
Pushing Charlie 151	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:33:00 - [18] - Quote I don't see what all the fuss is about, I'm a Min Scout, and in the past 3 PC matches I've taken part in (Against fantastic teams) I've killed countless Heavies but died to them probably 2-3 times. Flank and Gank, and always carry an RE. Knight Soiaire I am the Wizard from the moon.
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1547	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:56:00 - [19] - Quote Buwaro Draemon wrote: I find it funny how the scouts are the only ones complaining about heavies. I main cal assault on the ground and find it fascinating that heavies can moe through groups of mercs regardless of the frame (except maybe another heavy) even when they are concentrating fire. They move like knives through butter, very little resistance against them, hardly anything to limit it either. I think the killing power is fine, but the overheat mechanic needs to be touched on. I mean once you get the skill to reduce overheating to 3 do you even have to worry about overheating your gun?
LAVALLOIS Nash QcGOLD 216	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:59:00 - [20] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: With scouts, at least if the newbie sees the scout, they can kill it easily enough [sarcasm]Yeah scouts with their invisibility and their 12ft high jump spamming are the easiest things to kill on the battlefield. [/sarcasm] Heavy spam is a direct result of scout saturation. Fix the real problem and not the symptoms. There are players out there who can be invisible, more faster than the ingame sensitivity can track, jump to ridiculous heights, oh and deal 2hk damage with a weapon that can hipfire with no spread. But of course, according to you. the real problem is people protecting themselves.

castba Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 496	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:32:00 - [21] - Quote Easiest counter to Hmg heavies is to use any rifle on them from 40+m. Why are the complainers finding this so difficult now? It has always been this way.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 37	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:33:00 - [22] - Quote With scout/shotgun proliferation, and a lack of vehicles in ambush...heavy HMG is the best choice currently...I would love to have vehicles put back into ambush (even if my HAV was deployed without a main gun) as just a wall against the oncoming bullets...DPS and EWAR needs to be examined on scouts...but as for cloaking, if you can't see the "cloak shadow" purple distortion thing they do, that's on you
Hynox Xitio 0uter.Heaven 1311	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:38:00 - [23] - Quote Note how all the complaints regarding heavies stem from scouts, who in no way should be able to engage and best heavies in a head-to-head scuffle. It's like complaining that a small toddler with kitchen knives is unable to tackle a grown man wielding a baseball bat. You're supposed to get creative. Unleash the Fogwoggler, follow your dreams. ( -íº -£-û -íº) /)
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 623	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:42:00 - [24] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: With scouts, at least if the newbie sees the scout, they can kill it easily enough [sarcasm]Yeah scouts with their invisibility and their 12ft high jump spamming are the easiest things to kill on the battlefield. [/sarcasm] Heavy spam is a direct result of scout saturation. Fix the real problem and not the symptoms. There are players out there who can be invisible, more faster than the ingame sensitivity can track, jump to ridiculous heights, oh and deal 2hk damage with a weapon that can hipfire with no spread. But of course, according to you. the real problem is people protecting themselves. ...um wat? "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 623	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:47:00 - [25] - Quote Hynox Xitio wrote: Note how all the complaints regarding heavies stem from scouts, who in no way should be able to engage and best heavies in a head-to-head scuffle. It's like complaining that a small toddler with kitchen knives is unable to tackle a grown man wielding a baseball bat. You're supposed to get creative. The problem isn't head on fights, the problem is flanking, attacking, and being killed in under a half second by the HMG before my fifth shot can hit the heavy....Thats the problem for scouts. I really don't understand how new players are dealing with heavy spam, as it may well be the most difficult thing for them to counter. ARs and the like only deal real damage inside of the HMG's "insta-gib" range (50 meters and under), so it makes no sense for people to say "use a long range weapon", as not everyone has access to one. What if someone put all their points into gallente assault and plasma rifles, what then? You essentially are killing an entire play style by arguing that heavies should always win at anything under 50m. They should always win in a straight up firefight, thats their role. However, they are not vulnerable enough to 1. Surprise tactics, 2. shorter range rifles, which leads to an imbalance.... The suit is fine, the HMG is not "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
Thokk Nightshade KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 402	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:49:00 - [26] - Quote castba wrote: Easiest counter to Hmg heavies is to use any rifle on them from 40+m. Why are the complainers finding this so difficult now? It has always been this way. ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^ Rail rifles are currently tearing me up on the battlefield whenever I pull out my Heavy because I can never get close enough to do the damage necessary (Especially on the open maps). They sit back and shoot outside my Optimal range (even with assault HMG) and if I find a way to go after them, they backtrack to keep distance. As has been stated before, if you are in a 300 HP suit, don't try to take on a Heavy at 10-15 meters. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 623	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:51:00 - [27] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: castba wrote: Easiest counter to Hmg heavies is to use any rifle on them from 40+m. Why are the complainers finding this so difficult now? It has always been this way. ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^ Rail rifles are currently tearing me up on the battlefield whenever I pull out my Heavy because I can never get close enough to do the damage necessary (Especially on the open maps). They sit back and shoot outside my Optimal range (even with assault HMG) and if I find a way to go after them, they backtrack to keep distance. As has been stated before, if you are in a 300 HP suit, don't try to take on a Heavy at 10-15 meters. What if you're a ninja with knives? whats the suggestion then? (also sorry about shotgunning your minja suit today, i felt pretty bad about it) "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 963	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:54:00 - [28] - Quote castba wrote: Easiest counter to Hmg heavies is to use any rifle on them from 40+m. Why are the complainers finding this so difficult now? It has always been this way. That would require having at least 600 HP to tank their HMG from that range. The Amarr scout bonus is like the old Amarr sentinel bonus. No one needed 25% reduction to overheat damage on a heavy;_;
Onesimus Tarsus NoGameNoLife 2154	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:54:00 - [29] - Quote If only there was a way to balance encounters by lethality over time... if only! K/D(r) WP/D(r) matchmaking fixes the whole game. Period.
Thokk Nightshade KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 402	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:55:00 - [30] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Hynox Xitio wrote: Note how all the complaints regarding heavies stem from scouts, who in no way should be able to engage and best heavies in a head-to-head scuffle. It's like complaining that a small toddler with kitchen knives is unable to tackle a grown man wielding a baseball bat. You're supposed to get creative. The problem isn't head on fights, the problem is flanking, attacking, and being killed in under a half second by the HMG before my fifth shot can hit the heavy....Thats the problem for scouts. I really don't understand how new players are dealing with heavy spam, as it may well be the most difficult thing for them to counter. ARs and the like only deal real damage inside of the HMG's "insta-gib" range (50 meters and under), so it makes no sense for people to say "use a long range weapon", as not everyone has access to one. What if someone put all their points into gallente assault and plasma rifles, what then? You essentially are killing an entire play style by arguing that heavies should always win at anything under 50m. They should always win in a straight up firefight, thats their role. However, they are not vulnerable enough to 1. Surprise tactics, 2. shorter range rifles, which leads to an imbalance.... The suit is fine, the HMG is not I have HMG proficiency up to 4 right now and with a basic HMG, anyone past about 20-30 meters doesn't take excessive damage because of distance and the spread. I don't know if 4 >>>> 5 makes that much of a difference in spread/weapon movement. I know I sure as hell can't kill anyone at 30 or 40 meters with even an Assault HMG. I got into a firefight with rail rifles where I was getting killed at between 40-47 meters (3 or 4 times, so not a 1 time anomaly). Using an assault HMG (the one meant for long distance) on scouts/assault suits, they were tearing my shields and armor to zero before I could get more than 1/2 their shield down. So all these people saying a standard HMG is deadly accurate/high DPS out to 50 meters needs to give me some of what their smoking. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.



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