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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14820
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:53:00 -
[31] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:@Forlorn -
The idea of a commando making a real sacrifice by using the low slots for speed mods doesn't really make much of a difference in the end because the base HP on a commando is so much higher than an assault.
It's quite likely that a commando can be both tankier and faster than an assault whilst having two weapons with more damage on.
Essentially, it can outperform the assault in almost every meaningful way. They why don't I die to it more often when I'm running my Assault?
Are we bringing anecdotal evidence into this now?
If assaults are fine, why do I never die to them?
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Polka will never die.
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Forlorn Destrier
2564
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:@Forlorn -
The idea of a commando making a real sacrifice by using the low slots for speed mods doesn't really make much of a difference in the end because the base HP on a commando is so much higher than an assault.
It's quite likely that a commando can be both tankier and faster than an assault whilst having two weapons with more damage on.
Essentially, it can outperform the assault in almost every meaningful way. They why don't I die to it more often when I'm running my Assault? Are we bringing anecdotal evidence into this now? If assaults are fine, why do I never die to them?
I lick my lips when I see a Commando. I beat them straight up in my assault 8 out of 10 times. Maybe its the quality of the other driver? I don't know. All I'm saying is a major overhaul isn't needed. Small buffs are always better than major changes. Tweaks. Not overhaul. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14822
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Posted - 2014.06.24 23:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sure. I don't think we need ridiculous things being thrown about - there's no need for massive buffs.
But at the moment assaults are simply underperforming. Tweaks are fine as long as they're the right tweaks and they make the class workable without breaking something else.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Polka will never die.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11126
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Posted - 2014.06.24 23:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Forlorn Destrier wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:@Forlorn -
The idea of a commando making a real sacrifice by using the low slots for speed mods doesn't really make much of a difference in the end because the base HP on a commando is so much higher than an assault.
It's quite likely that a commando can be both tankier and faster than an assault whilst having two weapons with more damage on.
Essentially, it can outperform the assault in almost every meaningful way. They why don't I die to it more often when I'm running my Assault? Are we bringing anecdotal evidence into this now? If assaults are fine, why do I never die to them? I lick my lips when I see a Commando. I beat them straight up in my assault 8 out of 10 times. Maybe its the quality of the other driver? I don't know. All I'm saying is a major overhaul isn't needed. Small buffs are always better than major changes. Tweaks. Not overhaul.
Then those Commandos are new to it and not doing their jobs right.
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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Atiim
NoGameNoLife
9806
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Posted - 2014.06.24 23:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:
I would pose that an Assault using a Mass Driver is doing it wrong. The Mass Driver is area of denial weapon. Assault makes up for the range deficiency by selecting the right weapon type and using his maneuverability to close the gap to optimal range. The Commando will likely die faster as he will be less able to dodge, dip, dive, and... um... dodge (points to those that get the reference).
Mass Drivers aren't strictly an area denial weapon. When making a push in closed spaces (such as "A" on Impact Ridge), the Mass Driver can (and usually is) used as a breaching weapon.
Using a Mass Driver isn't necessarily wrong, as there are situations that warrant it's use over a rifle, hence why it's a niche weapon. As for "using maneuverability to close the gap to optimal range", that's the role of a Shotgun or Nova Knife wielding Scout.
Also: "Dogeball: A True Underdog Story"
Forlorn Destrier wrote:"Can get to" says to me you have to put speed mods on there to do it, sacrificing low slots on a suit woefully bereft of them. By doing this, you are using the mods to approximate another role - one that the Assault fills naturally without having to sacrifice low slots for speed.
While I do need to sacrifice low slots to do so, I can still out-perform the Assault in other areas as well. Combine that with the fact that me being a Matari Commando means that I would use KinCats anyways means that your point is moot.
Forlorn Destrier wrote:he idea of balance is that you fit to your strengths, not weaknesses. If you are compensating for your weakness, your strength is not as effective, and overall you lose the best features of your class. This would be the same as brick tanking a scout as the sacrifice of the EWAR capability, in my opinion. Why brick tank the scout if you are playing a more assault role? Use the suit better designed for adaptability for situations that change quickly.
The strength of a Commando is having 2 Light Weapons, and as a Minmatar Commando your strengths are speed, so you aren't compensating for your weakness, your improving it.
Forlorn Destrier wrote:And that is my overall point - battles that require fluidity are better suited for the Assault. If you have to approximate the Assault's speed with mods, and the situation changes and you need better point defense, and not supply depot is around, you're hosed. Is the Assault best at anything? No. But it balances everything much better than the other suits do, and if you need to adapt you don't necessarily have to find a depot to do so.
So then tell me, how would you adapt without a Supply Depot? Keep in mind, ignoring or evading does not count as adaptation. Also, if the Assault doesn't have a strength why would i use it when it has several weaknesses?
I want SLAVs, not SLAVEs.
"Many things in life are subjective, morality is one of them..."
-HAND
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CUSE TOWN333
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
727
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Posted - 2014.06.24 23:42:00 -
[36] - Quote
Eko Sol wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:The assault is in a dubious place right now. All the things it can do can be done by another class.
What can the role of the assault actually be?
It's not to provide firepower, HP, EWAR, or speed. Those are all the realms of other roles and classes. The scout, logistics, heavy, and commando classes all have something unique about them to provide a reason to choose them.
The heavy is the only class that can fit heavy weapons.
The logistics is able to use far more equipment than any other class.
The commando can use two light weapons on one suit.
The scout has EWAR and a cloak.
What can the assault do that's unique?
A straight buff set of buffs won't change anything. It still won't have a role. It doesn't hard counter anything at all, but every other class has something over it. I'm kind of sick of these threads about the assault class. I have seen countless min and cal assaults just wreck EVERYTHING. 3 damage mods and a whole bunch of HP is not a joke. I run ADV Gal Assault for fun with my AR. I do things with that that amazes me. I can't help but wonder why or what people are having an issue with. I think the A-Assualt can have high EHP and DPS with a Basic Cloak btw. I've seen them out on the field. And for the record. The A-Assault has hit detection issues. It is really rare that I am up against one so I don't complain but just pointing it out. all suits can kill in pub matchs but thats not what we are taliking about. if i went 25-1 yesterday with a plazma cannon would we say its a great gun or does the other team just suck?
The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
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Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p
614
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Posted - 2014.06.24 23:44:00 -
[37] - Quote
A couple of buffs I like are huge base HP regeneration buffs (or in the case of the Amarr, just a straight up base armor HP buff), coupled with better bonuses (not feeling like posting them right now)
"Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!"
-Buzz Kill
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3161
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Posted - 2014.06.25 00:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
ROF bpnus
Removed all hope with this post
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Benjamin Ciscko
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
2363
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Posted - 2014.06.25 00:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
Eko Sol wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:The assault is in a dubious place right now. All the things it can do can be done by another class.
What can the role of the assault actually be?
It's not to provide firepower, HP, EWAR, or speed. Those are all the realms of other roles and classes. The scout, logistics, heavy, and commando classes all have something unique about them to provide a reason to choose them.
The heavy is the only class that can fit heavy weapons.
The logistics is able to use far more equipment than any other class.
The commando can use two light weapons on one suit.
The scout has EWAR and a cloak.
What can the assault do that's unique?
A straight buff set of buffs won't change anything. It still won't have a role. It doesn't hard counter anything at all, but every other class has something over it. I'm kind of sick of these threads about the assault class. I have seen countless min and cal assaults just wreck EVERYTHING. 3 damage mods and a whole bunch of HP is not a joke. I run ADV Gal Assault for fun with my AR. I do things with that that amazes me. I can't help but wonder why or what people are having an issue with. I think the A-Assualt can have high EHP and DPS with a Basic Cloak btw. I've seen them out on the field. And for the record. The A-Assault has hit detection issues. It is really rare that I am up against one so I don't complain but just pointing it out.
How the f*ck do you fit 3 complex damage mods on a min/cal and still have a ton of HP? What are you smoking? and if you don't think scouts>assaults then your ignorant
Tanker/Logi
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Kalante Schiffer
FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP.--FAP.
618
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Posted - 2014.06.25 00:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Aren't assaults suppose to be deadly 1v1? and you dont want to f*ck with them alone? Scouts have their hide and seek bs, heavies are almost impossible to get rid off now in tight places such as B inside the mushroom, A and B in research lab, C in the rings map and tons of other close quarter places. Logis... well they are being logis by healing the absurd amount of heavies that exist now and they love getting war points. Assaults should be machines that push for the objective not get slaughtered all game long.
Gä¦ember oGä¦ the Gä¢oyal -óuard G£ú
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Benjamin Ciscko
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
2368
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Posted - 2014.06.25 00:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:ROF bpnus
damn dubs you beat me to ROF and/or massive regenerative capabilities.
Tanker/Logi
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Spectre-M
The Generals
552
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Posted - 2014.06.25 06:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
Benjamin Ciscko wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:ROF bpnus damn dubs you beat me to ROF and/or massive regenerative capabilities.
Regen would work. Makes the role more appealing to front liners.
Minnmitar in Amarr armor.
A Wolf in Sheeps clothing.
May the Empress live till she graces my sights.
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
8568
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Posted - 2014.06.25 06:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'll tell you right now the answer is not merging it with the Commando, not even for Legion. I have no clue why everyone is saying that, it is a bad idea.
Obviously it is supposed to be mobile DPS, but scouts do that better. So many scouts have too much DPS or *gasp* too much tank.
Amarr are the good guys.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14837
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Posted - 2014.06.25 07:04:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:I'll tell you right now the answer is not merging it with the Commando, not even for Legion. I have no clue why everyone is saying that, it is a bad idea.
Obviously it is supposed to be mobile DPS, but scouts do that better. So many scouts have too much DPS or *gasp* too much tank.
Honestly I think the Legion model is fantastic.
It gives every class a clear role and a reason to pick that class for its role. At the moment we have the assault class which is throughly meh without a role, and then we have the Commando which was shoehorned in initially and kind of grew from the first tumour.
Why is the Legion model not a good plan?
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Polka will never die.
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
599
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Posted - 2014.06.25 07:36:00 -
[45] - Quote
In your OP you did not mention regen. This is what I personally believe should be the defining role of an assault. This allows assaults to sustain fire on the enemy. Think about their current bonuses.
Amarr can fire laser weapons longer
Minmatar have larger clips
Caldari has reload bonus
Gallente has accuracy
All of these essentially make assault good for sustained damage (gallente included if you consider sustaining a steam of AR bullets on an enemy)
Better regen is the logical fit. I suggest the following bonus to base stats.
Caldari: 5% bonus to base shield recharge per level (base at lvl 5 = 37.5 hp/s)
(remember the old assault bonus, remember the original assault suit.... Hmmmmmmm.)
Gallente: 0.75 bonus to base armor regen per level (base at level 5 = 6.75 hp/s)
Minmatar: 5% reduction in base shield delay & deplete delay per level (base at level 5 = 4.5 and 6 sec respectively)
Slightly better than Caldari Assault base, as it should have always been.
Amarr: 3% bonus to base armor per level. (base at lvl 5 = 345 armor)
This allows for more flexibility in low slots and/or for amarr to reach nice armor tank without being so super slow ballz.
Thoughts?
SMG Specialist
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OP FOTM
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2014.06.25 07:42:00 -
[46] - Quote
but i kind of disagree with you Arkena.
the Amarr effectively gets a damage increase just in a different way than the Commando does and an HP buff will give him even more of a DPS advantage over other classes at the laser weapons ranges
i dont know why people are complaining about the Minmatar. i remember when 1.8 dropped I was in my full proto amarr heavy which is supposed to resist the CR and his clip size allowed him to nearly kill me before reloading which is INSANELY GOOD.
Gallente and Caldari just need better bonuses, as well as the HP buff that all Assaults need.
I think they should possibly try to bring back the old bonuses except in a better way, like allowing Min/Amarr to dual tank better and Gal/Cal to single tank better |
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1396
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Posted - 2014.06.25 07:45:00 -
[47] - Quote
Assaulting.
Look, everything in this game revolves around capturing and defending objectives. Assaults should be the main force. EVERYTHING ELSE should be in support of the assault suit. Everything. Scouts provide him with Intel. Drop ships provide air support. Tanks provide vehicle suppression and clearance. Heavies defend him from counterattack.
The assault suit should be the general purpose suit. It kills pretty well, and its got a decent racial tank. The other suits and vehicles should be balanced around supporting him and his objective of assaulting.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11162
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Posted - 2014.06.25 08:22:00 -
[48] - Quote
OP FOTM wrote:but i kind of disagree with you Arkena.
the Amarr effectively gets a damage increase just in a different way than the Commando does and an HP buff will give him even more of a DPS advantage over other classes at the laser weapons ranges
i dont know why people are complaining about the Minmatar. i remember when 1.8 dropped I was in my full proto amarr heavy which is supposed to resist the CR and his clip size allowed him to nearly kill me before reloading which is INSANELY GOOD.
Gallente and Caldari just need better bonuses, as well as the HP buff that all Assaults need.
I think they should possibly try to bring back the old bonuses except in a better way, like allowing Min/Amarr to dual tank better and Gal/Cal to single tank better
If you think the Amarr Dual tank you are more ignorant than you let on......
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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hold that
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
130
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Posted - 2014.06.25 08:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
I always thought that letting the assault class be the only class that can fit damage mods to both high and low slots would be something good. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3775
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Posted - 2014.06.25 09:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
I think Amarr Assault is a good example of what an Assault wants to be right now; it's durable thanks to its high base armour, it's capable of rapid regeneration (I'm fitting two repairers now) and equally capable of large tank (If I felt like sacrificing the rest of my fitting I could run just under 600 armour including 18 HP/s). It's got enormous damage potential thanks to its excellent bonus to ScR (which is why I want the Assault bonus to be 'damage' not RoF), and it's reasonably fast, thanks to being an assault.
It could use some tweaking, still (my scout suit is better at PRO, and I prefer my 'Dragonfly' over my 'Templar' - or I would were it not for my ScR).
On the whole, though, I think it's quite a good suit.
The fact that I have not yet invested a single point in Fitting Optimisation (for anything except large turrets, actually) means I'd be perfectly happy with the fittings bonus being removed. Even though I really like that bonus.
True Adamance wrote:If you think the Amarr Dual tank you are more ignorant than you let on......
If you think damage mods are worth fitting more than one of even to Amarr weapons, you're... Well, you'd still be silly :)
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5
CalLogi, you're next!
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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
4873
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Posted - 2014.06.25 09:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
It's not supposed to fill a role. It's a grunt. The frontline generic soldier.
RIP Stinky Sleeve.
RIP Dust514.
See you on Destiny. PSN: GSDSteVB
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11168
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Posted - 2014.06.25 10:17:00 -
[52] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:I think Amarr Assault is a good example of what an Assault wants to be right now; it's durable thanks to its high base armour, it's capable of rapid regeneration (I'm fitting two repairers now) and equally capable of large tank (If I felt like sacrificing the rest of my fitting I could run just under 600 armour including 18 HP/s). It's got enormous damage potential thanks to its excellent bonus to ScR (which is why I want the Assault bonus to be 'damage' not RoF), and it's reasonably fast, thanks to being an assault. It could use some tweaking, still (my scout suit is better at PRO, and I prefer my 'Dragonfly' over my 'Templar' - or I would were it not for my ScR). On the whole, though, I think it's quite a good suit. The fact that I have not yet invested a single point in Fitting Optimisation (for anything except large turrets, actually) means I'd be perfectly happy with the fittings bonus being removed. Even though I really like that bonus. True Adamance wrote:If you think the Amarr Dual tank you are more ignorant than you let on...... If you think damage mods are worth fitting more than one of even to Amarr weapons, you're... Well, you'd still be silly :)
That's not the point Lorhak.
Amarr don't shield tank.
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3775
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Posted - 2014.06.25 10:18:00 -
[53] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:I think Amarr Assault is a good example of what an Assault wants to be right now; it's durable thanks to its high base armour, it's capable of rapid regeneration (I'm fitting two repairers now) and equally capable of large tank (If I felt like sacrificing the rest of my fitting I could run just under 600 armour including 18 HP/s). It's got enormous damage potential thanks to its excellent bonus to ScR (which is why I want the Assault bonus to be 'damage' not RoF), and it's reasonably fast, thanks to being an assault. It could use some tweaking, still (my scout suit is better at PRO, and I prefer my 'Dragonfly' over my 'Templar' - or I would were it not for my ScR). On the whole, though, I think it's quite a good suit. The fact that I have not yet invested a single point in Fitting Optimisation (for anything except large turrets, actually) means I'd be perfectly happy with the fittings bonus being removed. Even though I really like that bonus. True Adamance wrote:If you think the Amarr Dual tank you are more ignorant than you let on...... If you think damage mods are worth fitting more than one of even to Amarr weapons, you're... Well, you'd still be silly :) That's not the point Lorhak. Amarr don't shield tank.
I'm considering giving regulators and an energiser to go with it in my brand new low slot xD
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5
CalLogi, you're next!
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3775
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Posted - 2014.06.25 10:19:00 -
[54] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:It's not supposed to fill a role. It's a grunt. The frontline generic soldier.
So why use it when it can't do anything better than anyone else can?
I could see running one if you couldn't switch suits during the match, but clearly you can.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5
CalLogi, you're next!
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11168
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Posted - 2014.06.25 10:19:00 -
[55] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:True Adamance wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:I think Amarr Assault is a good example of what an Assault wants to be right now; it's durable thanks to its high base armour, it's capable of rapid regeneration (I'm fitting two repairers now) and equally capable of large tank (If I felt like sacrificing the rest of my fitting I could run just under 600 armour including 18 HP/s). It's got enormous damage potential thanks to its excellent bonus to ScR (which is why I want the Assault bonus to be 'damage' not RoF), and it's reasonably fast, thanks to being an assault. It could use some tweaking, still (my scout suit is better at PRO, and I prefer my 'Dragonfly' over my 'Templar' - or I would were it not for my ScR). On the whole, though, I think it's quite a good suit. The fact that I have not yet invested a single point in Fitting Optimisation (for anything except large turrets, actually) means I'd be perfectly happy with the fittings bonus being removed. Even though I really like that bonus. True Adamance wrote:If you think the Amarr Dual tank you are more ignorant than you let on...... If you think damage mods are worth fitting more than one of even to Amarr weapons, you're... Well, you'd still be silly :) That's not the point Lorhak. Amarr don't shield tank. I'm considering giving regulators and an energiser to go with it in my brand new low slot xD
I'mma back hand you, you goddamn heathen!
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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Cavani1EE7
The Rainbow Effect
109
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Posted - 2014.06.25 10:34:00 -
[56] - Quote
ROF, DPS, and a RANGE bonus would make it less suck compared to a scout.
1337
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CUSE TOWN333
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
728
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Posted - 2014.06.25 14:27:00 -
[57] - Quote
i remember back in the day when scouts were not OP they could sneak up behind and kill you but they were paper thin never able to stand a face to face gun fight. the caldari assault used to be OP because it had huge tank that came back to full HP as soon as they poped into cover. a scout suit should never be able to fit the same amount of HP as a assault. heavys have been OP since they got a fire rate buff and all rifles got nerfed making it hard to kill heavys.
The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
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