DUST Search - The assault class doesn't fill a role

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Forlorn Destrier wrote:

It's the jack of all trades, and can best adapt to a changing environment.

Example - running a long distance across an open field and offering sustained point defense of a closed in objective. Can other classes do the same? Sure - but let's look at what happens.

A scout gets there faster than the assault, but will die more quickly if he encounters more than 1 or 2 players.

A heavy will eventually get the objective, but by that time there is nothing to defend and the MCC would have already taken damage. Also with low mobility if the enemy is there they will see him coming a mile away.

The Logistics can there and offer defense, but lacking a sidearm (the Amarr logi really isn't a logi) means that he can also be overwhelmed more easily than an assult can be.

The commando can get there faster than the heavy, and can hold the defense longer than the assault - again though you trade speed for defense, just not as extreme of a trade of as the heavy.

To some extent, I agree.
Except...

At the moment, the scout can fight just as well as the assault can on that point, arguably more effectively as it'll be assisted by EWAR and its greater mobility during the actual fight.

The logistics is as good at combat as the assault is - the sidearm is negated by the extra slots and fitting the logi has, and the logi has access to a number of tools to assist it as well.

The heavy frames, I agree, might not get there in time. But if the assault is getting there in time to realistically defend an objective (that is to say, it's not basically lost already) then the heavy won't be so far behind that it won't be able to proceed to clear the objective and casually hack it back.

The assault is below mediocre. It can't excel at anything - it can perform almost adequately in a number of tasks but is significantly outperformed in all of them even when dealing with multiple tasks and versatility. A scout is more versatile than an assault. A logi is also debatably more versatile than an assault. A heavy is not - but it has such vast power behind it that it doesn't matter.

To either a scout or a heavy, an assault is essentially prey. What can the assault seriously counter?

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Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14812	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:46:00 - [1] - Quote The assault is in a dubious place right now. All the things it can do can be done by another class. What can the role of the assault actually be? It's not to provide firepower, HP, EWAR, or speed. Those are all the realms of other roles and classes. The scout, logistics, heavy, and commando classes all have something unique about them to provide a reason to choose them. The heavy is the only class that can fit heavy weapons. The logistics is able to use far more equipment than any other class. The commando can use two light weapons on one suit. The scout has EWAR and a cloak. What can the assault do that's unique? A straight buff set of buffs won't change anything. It still won't have a role. It doesn't hard counter anything at all, but every other class has something over it. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11118	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:48:00 - [2] - Quote Mobile DPS? " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14813	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:49:00 - [3] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mobile DPS? A scout can do mobility better with plenty of DPS. Unless the assault gets a massive, massive DPS buff in which case it starts to infringe on the heavy role. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11119	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:51:00 - [4] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mobile DPS? A scout can do mobility better with plenty of DPS. Unless the assault gets a massive, massive DPS buff in which case it starts to infringe on the heavy role. Assaulting? " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14813	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:53:00 - [5] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mobile DPS? A scout can do mobility better with plenty of DPS. Unless the assault gets a massive, massive DPS buff in which case it starts to infringe on the heavy role. Assaulting? You're going to have to clarify that a little bit. Every class can 'assault'. What do you mean by assault? What is the role 'assault'? Should assaults have weapons on the same level of power as the HMG? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1544	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:54:00 - [6] - Quote They are grunts that feed the other classes But seriously I would say versatility and baiting. Nothing says come get me like an assault.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11119	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:55:00 - [7] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: True Adamance wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mobile DPS? A scout can do mobility better with plenty of DPS. Unless the assault gets a massive, massive DPS buff in which case it starts to infringe on the heavy role. Assaulting? You're going to have to clarify that a little bit. Every class can 'assault'. What do you mean by assault? What is the role 'assault'? Should assaults have weapons on the same level of power as the HMG? ASSAULT! But for reals......Assaults may not have a specific role....because their role I assume is that of a grunt. Every army needs the boots on the ground riflemen, not every man can be a trained and tested medic, engineer, or heavy weapons operator. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5917	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:57:00 - [8] - Quote Why not bring a little from column A and little from Column B? A minor amount of resistances on top of a minor amount of damage increase. Make them a mix between the commando and a heavy. At one point I thought they were going to give assaults bubble shields or whatever but now that's completely out of the question. To me something like a temporary overshield would have made them very unique and able to soak up plenty of damage on the front lines. Obviously just spit balling. Assaults have always been lack luster. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14813	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:57:00 - [9] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: They are grunts that feed the other classes But seriously I would say versatility and baiting. Nothing says come get me like an assault. That's kind of the thing. Assaults are prey. Also @True throws pukeko You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11119	Posted - 2014.06.24 21:59:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: They are grunts that feed the other classes But seriously I would say versatility and baiting. Nothing says come get me like an assault. That's kind of the thing. Assaults are prey. Also @True throws pukeko * dives cinematically to catch the pukeko " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III

DEATH THE KlD Harem. King 9	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:01:00 - [11] - Quote Someone who kicks the door down and kills everyone
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14814	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:05:00 - [12] - Quote DEATH THE KlD wrote: Someone who kicks the door down and kills everyone Isn't that what heavies would like to be? Seeing as they have vastly more HP than an assault and a lot more damage output at such ranges there's not really much reason that you'd use an assault for that even after a buff. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Foo Fighting THE HANDS OF DEATH 78	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:12:00 - [13] - Quote +2% light weapon range per level. Would give an advantage over tanked scouts but not real scouts and would be a good logi killer (which is a useful squad role).
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14816	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:17:00 - [14] - Quote Foo Fighting wrote: +2% light weapon range per level. Would give an advantage over tanked scouts but not real scouts and would be a good logi killer (which is a useful squad role). How would that change anything, though? Chances are that an even mildly competent scout is not going to sit in the little 10% range advantage of an assault. What's much more likely is that said scout is going to be removing your spleen with a knife. Not exactly something that a marginally longer range can defend against. A logi killer? How would 10% more range make an assault a real logi killer, over any of the other classes? The 10% damage bonus that the commando has is essentially better in every way because that 10% bonus increases the damage you do within your optimal while effectively extending the range that you'd do unbonused damage at. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 503	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:18:00 - [15] - Quote I think Assaults should have a DPS edge over Logistics, Scouts, Frames and Sentinels (as in, an Assault using a Rail Rifle would have a DPS advantage over any suit bar a CalCom also using a Rail Rifle) but maintain a speed advantage over all bar the Scout. The Assault is flexible and capable of dealing with almost any situation - only an up close Heavy, or the racial Commando can compete in direct face-to-face opposition. The Logistics carries the numerous support equipment, resupplying their Assaults, Heavies and Commandos and adding weight of fire in engagements. The Scout provides mobile fire support where needed and provides much needed EWar to squads/teams. (Personally, I feel we should reduce them back to 1 Equipment slot.) The Commando operates as a flexible and powerful combat primacy suit, but relies heavily on others: Logistics for repairs and Scouts for EWar. The Sentinel is the bruiser, able to breach or guard a location, but is even more reliant on their allies than the Commando. To make that vagueness a reality, I think the following would help: - +1% damage to Light/Sidearm weapons (maybe just the relevant racial ones), allowing them to out damage their medium frame and lighter enemies and pose a significant threat to heavy frames. - Improved speed/reduced Logistics speed, such that they are the go to suit for mobile firepower. - A secondary bonus which focuses on independent action: something to do with regenerative tanking (Gallente, rep efficacy; Caldari, recharger efficacy; Minmatar, regulator efficacy; Amarr, reactive plate efficacy?) for example. - Possibly remove their equipment slot, but give them additional bonuses, such as increased ammo/grenades. My two cents.
Forlorn Destrier 2564	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:20:00 - [16] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The assault is in a dubious place right now. All the things it can do can be done by another class. What can the role of the assault actually be? It's not to provide firepower, HP, EWAR, or speed. Those are all the realms of other roles and classes. The scout, logistics, heavy, and commando classes all have something unique about them to provide a reason to choose them. The heavy is the only class that can fit heavy weapons. The logistics is able to use far more equipment than any other class. The commando can use two light weapons on one suit. The scout has EWAR and a cloak. What can the assault do that's unique? A straight buff set of buffs won't change anything. It still won't have a role. It doesn't hard counter anything at all, but every other class has something over it. It's the jack of all trades, and can best adapt to a changing environment. Example - running a long distance across an open field and offering sustained point defense of a closed in objective. Can other classes do the same? Sure - but let's look at what happens. A scout gets there faster than the assault, but will die more quickly if he encounters more than 1 or 2 players. A heavy will eventually get the objective, but by that time there is nothing to defend and the MCC would have already taken damage. Also with low mobility if the enemy is there they will see him coming a mile away. The Logistics can there and offer defense, but lacking a sidearm (the Amarr logi really isn't a logi) means that he can also be overwhelmed more easily than an assult can be. The commando can get there faster than the heavy, and can hold the defense longer than the assault - again though you trade speed for defense, just not as extreme of a trade of as the heavy.
DEATH THE KlD Harem. King 9	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:21:00 - [17] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: DEATH THE KlD wrote: Someone who kicks the door down and kills everyone Isn't that what heavies would like to be? Seeing as they have vastly more HP than an assault and a lot more damage output at such ranges there's not really much reason that you'd use an assault for that even after a buff. Lol I just meant that's what I think when I hear assault. Personally I'd say a rof and DMG buff. I wouldn't make it race specific either otherwise it'd still be pointless. Assaults need to be able to push points a RR really doesn't help with that.
Tectonic Fusion 1768	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:23:00 - [18] - Quote I think a clip-size bonus would be the way to go. Less DPS than a HMG, however, you can fire for a longer amount of time to continue an assault. I would skill into it. EDIT: hurrdurrdurrrerr..........blarg.
Scheneighnay McBob Cult of Gasai 5388	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:27:00 - [19] - Quote They're intended to be shock (charging in to break a defensive line), but the small, tight-knit maps we have make sentinels and commandos better for the job. pé¦pâ+pé¦pâ½pâäpâ¬pâ¦pé¦pâ¼pâ+pâêpü»sñ¬S+ïpéè
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11124	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:29:00 - [20] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: I think a clip-size bonus would be the way to go. Less DPS than a HMG, however, you can fire for a longer amount of time to continue an assault. I would skill into it. EDIT: hurrdurrdurrrerr..........blarg. Thats pointless for the Amarr Assault since we are limited by overheat " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III

Eko Sol Strange Playings 491	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:32:00 - [21] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The assault is in a dubious place right now. All the things it can do can be done by another class. What can the role of the assault actually be? It's not to provide firepower, HP, EWAR, or speed. Those are all the realms of other roles and classes. The scout, logistics, heavy, and commando classes all have something unique about them to provide a reason to choose them. The heavy is the only class that can fit heavy weapons. The logistics is able to use far more equipment than any other class. The commando can use two light weapons on one suit. The scout has EWAR and a cloak. What can the assault do that's unique? A straight buff set of buffs won't change anything. It still won't have a role. It doesn't hard counter anything at all, but every other class has something over it. I'm kind of sick of these threads about the assault class. I have seen countless min and cal assaults just wreck EVERYTHING. 3 damage mods and a whole bunch of HP is not a joke. I run ADV Gal Assault for fun with my AR. I do things with that that amazes me. I can't help but wonder why or what people are having an issue with. I think the A-Assualt can have high EHP and DPS with a Basic Cloak btw. I've seen them out on the field. And for the record. The A-Assault has hit detection issues. It is really rare that I am up against one so I don't complain but just pointing it out. PSN is "Ekopalm" I play D3, Child of Light, and solo games Also, Proto Trolling until I'm broke...
Yeeeuuuupppp 378	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:33:00 - [22] - Quote I like my assault.although it's sort of like a scout, but better and without a crutch...erm.... I mean cloak. And by sorry of like a scout I mean built, like shield extenders and kin cats (how I prefer to run scout) Rage Proficiency V Mic status: Muted Storage Wars Champion.
Atiim NoGameNoLife 9803	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:36:00 - [23] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: It's the jack of all trades, and can best adapt to a changing environment. That title belongs to the Commando. To show, let's look at this hypothetical (yet entirely plausible) situation. Quote: A Commando is fighting Infantry with a Mass Driver in an Urban, CQC defined area. However he then needs to combat Infantry in a long range, open field. He adapts by using a Rail Rifle. An Assault is fighting Infantry with a Mass Drive in an Urban, CQC defined area. However he needs to combat Infantry in a long range, open field. He adapts by using an err... Magsec SMG? Which one seems the most adaptable to you? Forlorn Destrier wrote: The commando can get there faster than the heavy, and can hold the defense longer than the assault - again though you trade speed for defense, just not as extreme of a trade of as the heavy. My Commando can reach speeds of 7.81m/s, which is about as fast as most Assault suits are. You don't really use Commandos that much do you? I want SLAVs, not SLAVEs. "Many things in life are subjective, morality is one of them..." -HAND
Foo Fighting THE HANDS OF DEATH 78	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:37:00 - [24] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Foo Fighting wrote: +2% light weapon range per level. Would give an advantage over tanked scouts but not real scouts and would be a good logi killer (which is a useful squad role). How would that change anything, though? Would 10%? Perhaps 2% is too low but I think it's a variable worth considering - would be unique to the class. I don't believe it's actually miles from being useful today.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11125	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:40:00 - [25] - Quote Foo Fighting wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Foo Fighting wrote: +2% light weapon range per level. Would give an advantage over tanked scouts but not real scouts and would be a good logi killer (which is a useful squad role). How would that change anything, though? Would 10%? Perhaps 2% is too low but I think it's a variable worth considering - would be unique to the class. I don't believe the assault is actually miles from being useful today. You realise if that was the skill per level the ScR would have a DPS of 1200+ " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14820	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:41:00 - [26] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: It's the jack of all trades, and can best adapt to a changing environment. Example - running a long distance across an open field and offering sustained point defense of a closed in objective. Can other classes do the same? Sure - but let's look at what happens. A scout gets there faster than the assault, but will die more quickly if he encounters more than 1 or 2 players. A heavy will eventually get the objective, but by that time there is nothing to defend and the MCC would have already taken damage. Also with low mobility if the enemy is there they will see him coming a mile away. The Logistics can there and offer defense, but lacking a sidearm (the Amarr logi really isn't a logi) means that he can also be overwhelmed more easily than an assult can be. The commando can get there faster than the heavy, and can hold the defense longer than the assault - again though you trade speed for defense, just not as extreme of a trade of as the heavy. To some extent, I agree. Except... At the moment, the scout can fight just as well as the assault can on that point, arguably more effectively as it'll be assisted by EWAR and its greater mobility during the actual fight. The logistics is as good at combat as the assault is - the sidearm is negated by the extra slots and fitting the logi has, and the logi has access to a number of tools to assist it as well. The heavy frames, I agree, might not get there in time. But if the assault is getting there in time to realistically defend an objective (that is to say, it's not basically lost already) then the heavy won't be so far behind that it won't be able to proceed to clear the objective and casually hack it back. The assault is below mediocre. It can't excel at anything - it can perform almost adequately in a number of tasks but is significantly outperformed in all of them even when dealing with multiple tasks and versatility. A scout is more versatile than an assault. A logi is also debatably more versatile than an assault. A heavy is not - but it has such vast power behind it that it doesn't matter. To either a scout or a heavy, an assault is essentially prey. What can the assault seriously counter? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Forlorn Destrier 2564	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:46:00 - [27] - Quote Atiim wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: It's the jack of all trades, and can best adapt to a changing environment. That title belongs to the Commando. To show, let's look at this hypothetical (yet entirely plausible) situation. Quote: A Commando is fighting Infantry with a Mass Driver in an Urban, CQC defined area. However he then needs to combat Infantry in a long range, open field. He adapts by using a Rail Rifle. An Assault is fighting Infantry with a Mass Drive in an Urban, CQC defined area. However he needs to combat Infantry in a long range, open field. He adapts by using an err... Magsec SMG? Which one seems the most adaptable to you? Forlorn Destrier wrote: The commando can get there faster than the heavy, and can hold the defense longer than the assault - again though you trade speed for defense, just not as extreme of a trade of as the heavy. My Commando can reach speeds of 7.81m/s, which is about as fast as most Assault suits are. You don't really use Commandos that much do you? I would pose that an Assault using a Mass Driver is doing it wrong. The Mass Driver is area of denial weapon. Assault makes up for the range deficiency by selecting the right weapon type and using his maneuverability to close the gap to optimal range. The Commando will likely die faster as he will be less able to dodge, dip, dive, and... um... dodge (points to those that get the reference). "Can get to" says to me you have to put speed mods on there to do it, sacrificing low slots on a suit woefully bereft of them. By doing this, you are using the mods to approximate another role - one that the Assault fills naturally without having to sacrifice low slots for speed. The idea of balance is that you fit to your strengths, not weaknesses. If you are compensating for your weekness, your strength is not as effective, and overall you lose the best features of your class. This would be the same as brick tanking a scout as the sacrifice of the EWAR capability, in my opinion. Why brick tank the scout if you are playing a more assault role? Use the suit better designed for adaptability for situations that change quickly. And that is my overall point - battles that require fluidity are better suited for the Assault. If you have to approximate the Assualt's speed with mods, and the situation changes and you need better point defense, and not supply depot is around, you're hosed. Is the Assault best at anything? No. But it balances everything much better than the other suits do, and if you need to adapt you don't necessarily have to find a depot to do so.
Forlorn Destrier 2564	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:49:00 - [28] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: It's the jack of all trades, and can best adapt to a changing environment. Example - running a long distance across an open field and offering sustained point defense of a closed in objective. Can other classes do the same? Sure - but let's look at what happens. A scout gets there faster than the assault, but will die more quickly if he encounters more than 1 or 2 players. A heavy will eventually get the objective, but by that time there is nothing to defend and the MCC would have already taken damage. Also with low mobility if the enemy is there they will see him coming a mile away. The Logistics can there and offer defense, but lacking a sidearm (the Amarr logi really isn't a logi) means that he can also be overwhelmed more easily than an assult can be. The commando can get there faster than the heavy, and can hold the defense longer than the assault - again though you trade speed for defense, just not as extreme of a trade of as the heavy. To some extent, I agree. Except... At the moment, the scout can fight just as well as the assault can on that point, arguably more effectively as it'll be assisted by EWAR and its greater mobility during the actual fight. The logistics is as good at combat as the assault is - the sidearm is negated by the extra slots and fitting the logi has, and the logi has access to a number of tools to assist it as well. The heavy frames, I agree, might not get there in time. But if the assault is getting there in time to realistically defend an objective (that is to say, it's not basically lost already) then the heavy won't be so far behind that it won't be able to proceed to clear the objective and casually hack it back. The assault is below mediocre. It can't excel at anything - it can perform almost adequately in a number of tasks but is significantly outperformed in all of them even when dealing with multiple tasks and versatility. A scout is more versatile than an assault. A logi is also debatably more versatile than an assault. A heavy is not - but it has such vast power behind it that it doesn't matter. To either a scout or a heavy, an assault is essentially prey. What can the assault seriously counter? My point is that the Assault isn't supposed to excel at any one role, hence the "jack of all trades, master of none" comment. It's supposed to do everything moderately well, while there isn't anything that it does poorly or fantastically. And to be honest, I can beat scouts or heavies in my Assault - been doing it since closed beta. There is nothing I lose to more than others, and I consistently beat all others more than I lose.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14820	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:50:00 - [29] - Quote @Forlorn - The idea of a commando making a real sacrifice by using the low slots for speed mods doesn't really make much of a difference in the end because the base HP on a commando is so much higher than an assault. It's quite likely that a commando can be both tankier and faster than an assault whilst having two weapons with more damage on. Essentially, it can outperform the assault in almost every meaningful way. @Forlorn post 2 - It's not really a jack of all trades so much as a scrub of all trades, though. It's outperformed in multiple areas at once - it's being beaten in the versatility department. Of the categories firepower, HP, and speed, a commando will do all three better and a scout will do them just as well while having the advantage of EWAR and also it beats it on speed. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Forlorn Destrier 2564	Posted - 2014.06.24 22:51:00 - [30] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: @Forlorn - The idea of a commando making a real sacrifice by using the low slots for speed mods doesn't really make much of a difference in the end because the base HP on a commando is so much higher than an assault. It's quite likely that a commando can be both tankier and faster than an assault whilst having two weapons with more damage on. Essentially, it can outperform the assault in almost every meaningful way. They why don't I die to it more often when I'm running my Assault? EDIT: minor buffs, sure. Major overhaul is major overkill. It doesn't need a specialization.



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