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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1946	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:13:00 - [1] - Quote That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1423	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:18:00 - [2] - Quote We've been telling you what we think YOU just couldn't hear us over your wailing CCP Rattati wrote: I like the deadliness of a heavy hmg as it is right now. If we were to reduce its efficiency in a future hotfix, it would most likely be to heat since that rewards skill and not spray and pray. Improving the assault is then my preferred counter to heavies, not nerfing heavies, most likely through racial tanking improvements, pure damage output and regen. Just my general thoughts on the subject. Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2687	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:20:00 - [3] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1424	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:21:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. I was under the Impression that they did. Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1946	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:22:00 - [5] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: I was under the Impression that they did. They don't. We tested it again today. I wasn't lying to you, Vitharr. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1424	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:25:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: I was under the Impression that they did. They don't. We tested it again today. I wasn't lying to you, Vitharr. Then I will admit defeat on the ONE point they SHOULD affect turning as that is considered movement. My other points stand though... Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
XxWarlordxX97 BurgezzE.T.F 4323	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:26:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. But if this happens then it goes to the Scouts I'm a Elite heavy "I don't rage.I get even" Please donate isk if you want me to pub stomp you
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 10694	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:28:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. If that's the case then it will affect more than just Sentinel suits and Shield modules would equally require a penalty. Perhaps if you applied a universal turning speed penalty there could be a complimentary armour skill/ SP sink to alleviate that penalty somewhat. E.G- If turning speed penalty was 5% per plate stacked, perhaps the skill would Reduce the Penalty of Armour Plate weight penalties by 10% per level. Reducing the penalty per plate to 2.5% per plate at LvL 5. "You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength." -Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1948	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:47:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1. We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. 2. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. 1. Roger that. The Rotation Speed Cap was lifted in Uprising 1.4. We'd theorized that restoring it may adversely impact Commandos as well (not good); they'll be glad to hear you won't be changing it. 2. Good to know that it is technically possible (plates penalizing rotation speed). I will say that the uparmored Gallente Sentinel has proven quite good at resisting assassination attempts from behind involving Shotguns or Nova Knives. Perhaps too good, but that's not my call to make. Thanks again. o7 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 359	Posted - 2014.06.17 04:59:00 - [10] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. But if this happens then it goes to the Scouts yes... yes it would

Bojo The Mighty Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno 3840	Posted - 2014.06.17 05:01:00 - [11] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: XxWarlordxX97 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. But if this happens then it goes to the Scouts yes... yes it would LOL such a threat I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 900	Posted - 2014.06.17 05:08:00 - [12] - Quote Base rotation should be the same for all frame sizes, and modules (armour, maybe others?) should negatively impact rotation speed. ---signed: a chromosome heavy vet (who also happens to be a Minotaur) I am a minotaur.
The Eristic Dust 90210 479	Posted - 2014.06.17 05:09:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Nice solution to both fatspins and bricked scouts, but might bone Assaults (even more). Thinking percentage or flat? Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1426	Posted - 2014.06.17 05:18:00 - [14] - Quote The Eristic wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Nice solution to both fatspins and bricked scouts, but might bone Assaults (even more). Thinking percentage or flat? All turn speeds are the same so it wouldnt matter. Also my Amarr assault would love the turn speed reduction as it would help keep my LR on target Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1948	Posted - 2014.06.17 05:23:00 - [15] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: The Eristic wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Nice solution to both fatspins and bricked scouts, but might bone Assaults (even more). Thinking percentage or flat? All turn speeds are the same so it wouldnt matter. Also my Amarr assault would love the turn speed reduction as it would help keep my LR on target While "max turn speeds" are the same, individual turn speeds are defined by X/Y sensitivity. You can reduce yours anytime using in-game Options. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1426	Posted - 2014.06.17 05:27:00 - [16] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: The Eristic wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Nice solution to both fatspins and bricked scouts, but might bone Assaults (even more). Thinking percentage or flat? All turn speeds are the same so it wouldnt matter. Also my Amarr assault would love the turn speed reduction as it would help keep my LR on target FYI: You could reduce it yourself using in-game sensitivity settings. I've tried and the amount you need to tone it down screws every other fit. Like i said I'm an Amarr omni soldier it is very rare that I use one suit for a whole game. I love all my suits, even the scout suit with its useless racial xD Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6060	Posted - 2014.06.17 05:35:00 - [17] - Quote As Rattai said the HMG only needs more heat buildup to reduce that spray and pray crap for scrubs. I also think that along with that it needs a slight spool up time but that would only come if the heatbuild up didnt work as well as we would wish. If my assault could just do more damage then Assaults would have a better time in general. Also I think it stupid for the Gallente Light to have 3 hp/s and mediums 2hp/s. It should be the other way around. A moment of silence is not enough. For their crimes, we must make the Caldari silence permanent.
Right-wing Extremist Nos Nothi 148	Posted - 2014.06.17 05:40:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. For everybody! YES! For immersion's sake, okay. So evvery class of suit has the same base rotation speed, because even on heavier suits the servomotors located in the suit's legs' joints are designed to handle the load of that suit. But then you start stacking hundreds of kilograms more of armor on top of the standard weight. Those servomotors start to strain under the load. Makes sense. And the servomotors on scout suits are quite light... Jaceon Pale-eye. Soon to be the deadliest prick in OSG. Unless Mal says no :(
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 408	Posted - 2014.06.17 06:06:00 - [19] - Quote One of the problems with messing with turning speed is that it affects aiming. At least I think it probably does. If I'm correct then It'd be really annoying to switch from a heavy frame to a light frame and have to relearn how to aim. If you could decouple aiming from turning then it could work but that sounds difficult.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1429	Posted - 2014.06.17 06:15:00 - [20] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: One of the problems with messing with turning speed is that it affects aiming. At least I think it probably does. If I'm correct then It'd be really annoying to switch from a heavy frame to a light frame and have to relearn how to aim. If you could decouple aiming from turning then it could work but that sounds difficult. Id be fine then as a pure Amarr merc then as almost all my suits rock plates xD Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14580	Posted - 2014.06.17 06:17:00 - [21] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: I was under the Impression that they did. They don't. We tested it again today. I wasn't lying to you, Vitharr. Then I will admit defeat on the ONE point they SHOULD affect turning as that is considered movement. My other points stand though... A little surprised you didn't wail "but i tested it!11!" like you did in the other thread. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6078	Posted - 2014.06.17 06:20:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Maybe. Might set off a power imbalance among the racial heavies though. Gotta be kinda careful about that. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Dj grammer Red Star. EoN. 258	Posted - 2014.06.17 06:22:00 - [23] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: As Rattai said the HMG only needs more heat buildup to reduce that spray and pray crap for scrubs. I also think that along with that it needs a slight spool up time but that would only come if the heatbuild up didnt work as well as we would wish. If my assault could just do more damage then Assaults would have a better time in general. Also I think it stupid for the Gallente Light to have 3 hp/s and mediums 2hp/s. It should be the other way around. Good point I noticed this today Gallente Heavy 1hp/s (why?) Gallente Medium 2 hp/s (decent) Gallente Light 3hp/s (again why? this should have went to the heavy class or the medium class) why ccp?
deezy dabest Sacred Initiative of Combat Killers 608	Posted - 2014.06.17 06:38:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. I would be impartial to turn speed being affected by movement penalties as it would have some goods and bads but it would suck even worse to be a heavy with the old restriction and the amount of scouts out there now. Drastically messing with the turn speed would probably be the one thing to make sure everyone went to tanked assaults/logis over a heavy. Laser focused in a room full of mirrors. Everything you ever wanted coming SoonGäó just keep buying boosters.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1429	Posted - 2014.06.17 06:41:00 - [25] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: I was under the Impression that they did. They don't. We tested it again today. I wasn't lying to you, Vitharr. Then I will admit defeat on the ONE point they SHOULD affect turning as that is considered movement. My other points stand though... A little surprised you didn't wail "but i tested it!11!" like you did in the other thread. Human mind is quite capable giving a false positive hence why placebos are a thing but i dont have the ability to record and playback on a frame by frame basis(which I hope you did =.=) and unlike others i'm man enough to admit MY mistakes Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 769	Posted - 2014.06.17 08:05:00 - [26] - Quote If the penalty was very small and only barely noticeable when stacking more than 2 regular plates, I would be ok with it. Also to those saying that shields should get a penalty, they already have two: High PG/CPU costs and depleted shield recharge delays. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 44	Posted - 2014.06.17 10:46:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Use a minmatar scout with a smg, the turn speed is increased... Choo Choo
voidfaction Void of Faction 270	Posted - 2014.06.17 10:53:00 - [28] - Quote Dj grammer wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: As Rattai said the HMG only needs more heat buildup to reduce that spray and pray crap for scrubs. I also think that along with that it needs a slight spool up time but that would only come if the heatbuild up didnt work as well as we would wish. If my assault could just do more damage then Assaults would have a better time in general. Also I think it stupid for the Gallente Light to have 3 hp/s and mediums 2hp/s. It should be the other way around. Good point I noticed this today Gallente Heavy 1hp/s (why?) Gallente Medium 2 hp/s (decent) Gallente Light 3hp/s (again why? this should have went to the heavy class or the medium class) If you play your chess pieces for the role they are intended it makes perfect sense. Heavy squad offense/defense with logi support. heavy armor low self healing Medium squad offense/defense/support. medium armor mid self healing light solo offense/defense with no support. light armor high self healing
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 493	Posted - 2014.06.17 11:12:00 - [29] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: We've been telling you what we think YOU just couldn't hear us over your wailing CCP Rattati wrote: I like the deadliness of a heavy hmg as it is right now. If we were to reduce its efficiency in a future hotfix, it would most likely be to heat since that rewards skill and not spray and pray. Improving the assault is then my preferred counter to heavies, not nerfing heavies, most likely through racial tanking improvements, pure damage output and regen. Just my general thoughts on the subject. No, you've been telling everyone what you think, and everyone else has disagreed What all Minjas are thinking as they play... Yellow Heavy, Red Heavy...
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 3938	Posted - 2014.06.17 12:06:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. If you wanted to do it right, there would be a scaled restriction from tier to tier. Example: 5% Penalty to Heavy Turn Speed, 7% to Mediums, 10% to Lights Why? A Heavy Frame should be able to carry the burdensome plates more effectively than a lighter frame. It's like hauling an anvil. A truck would carry the weight with less effort, whereas a VW Rabbit would bottom out and drag its exhaust. If you guys wanna gimp us, that's fine. I'll do just the same, because Heavies aren't the problem. Assaults are. After a week of your posts, I'm beginning to think that maybe you just focus on trying to get good instead of having everyone molded into something a proper scrub can win against. I have know, OP: What setup are you running that's getting you wrecked so much and so badly? PSN: The_Rynoceros Destiny beta SoonGäó Console Master Race

hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 127	Posted - 2014.06.17 12:12:00 - [31] - Quote make it the penalty of carrying a heavy weapon
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1962	Posted - 2014.06.17 12:25:00 - [32] - Quote hold that wrote: make it the penalty of carrying a heavy weapon 1,800 HP is 1,800 HP. Whether he's wielding an HMG or Fine Rifle or SMG. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Yeeeuuuupppp 341	Posted - 2014.06.17 12:46:00 - [33] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: [s]@ You are invited to "weigh" in ... I hate you. Rage Proficiency V Mic status: Muted Storage Wars Champion.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4454	Posted - 2014.06.17 13:52:00 - [34] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Plates add a hidden value to your hitbox already. I don't think they need another disadvantage. Not documented but 100% true. Even affects collision detection. Falling from the gap between the raised fences on top of the tall building in a cargo hub was more difficult with full plates on a heavy, as least prior to racial parity on sentinels. Haven't tested it since, but it was something i had to be mindful of back when I was forge gunning from that sweet spot during PC. When adding enough mass it actually made it impossible to fall from anywhere but the raised corner.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2423	Posted - 2014.06.17 14:03:00 - [35] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: I was under the Impression that they did. They don't. We tested it again today. I wasn't lying to you, Vitharr. They for sure can't with the mouse.
Jake Diesel Legion-10 166	Posted - 2014.06.17 14:40:00 - [36] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 1. We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. 2. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. 1. Roger that. The Rotation Speed Cap was lifted in Uprising 1.4. We'd theorized that restoring it may adversely impact Commandos as well (not good); they'll be glad to hear you won't be changing it. 2. Good to know that it is technically possible (plates penalizing rotation speed). I will say that the uparmored Gallente Sentinel has proven uniquely resistant to assassination attempts from behind involving Shotguns or Nova Knives. Whether or not this one suit / situation warrants a system-wide change I cannot say. Thanks again. o7 PS: If the community deems it fit and proper, I'd support the addition of a rotation penalty to Armor Plate modules. A slower relative rotation speed may serve as offset to the Heavy's relative staying and slaying power. Soo in essence, any dropsuit that has stacked armor plates are going to be affected with a rotation speed penalty? Or is this just geared towards targeting heavies only? Last I checked, there's this light suit called a scout that just so happens to love stacking armor plates. But this sounds like a really biased nerf to heavies only. Let's just give scouts easy mode eh?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1968	Posted - 2014.06.17 14:47:00 - [37] - Quote Rynoceros wrote: I have to know, OP: What setup are you running that's getting you wrecked so much and so badly? If you must know, I get wrecked often and badly all the time. I'm wholly unconcerned about those myriad instances wherein I make a mistake and die. I'm concerned only about those instances wherein I've done everything right yet something goes wrong. Take these two fits for example: Gk.0 NK Assassin (170k Isk) Gk.0 SG Assassin (142k Isk) Indeed, these both of these fits are paper thin. But they are also as reasonable as they are challenging and fun. They are specifically designed to break hostile lines and quietly "backstab" stragglers and soloists. Hunt, stalk, strike, disappear, rinse/repeat. Either of these fits should -- and often do -- punish combatants who part from the herd. Most of the time. Alas, one class of Heavies features an innate "backstab" resistance. Those armor-tanked heavies who've mastered the art of the bunnyhop+pirouette+backpedal can reliably parry assassination attempts by the either of these assassin fits. Should these special-case Heavies get a pass when an assassin sneaks up behind them? My thinking is that Heavies are uniquely devastating in forward-facing combat; I believe they should be uniquely vulnerable to attack from behind. PS: Yes, I know I could be more effective if I brick-tanked my Scout suit, frisbee'd REs and ran a Combat Rifle. I choose not to. If I wanted to play as a Assault, I'd skill into Assault Frames. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Jake Diesel Legion-10 166	Posted - 2014.06.17 14:47:00 - [38] - Quote Rynoceros wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. If you wanted to do it right, there would be a scaled restriction from tier to tier. Example: 5% Penalty to Heavy Turn Speed, 7% to Mediums, 10% to Lights Why? A Heavy Frame should be able to carry the burdensome plates more effectively than a lighter frame. It's like hauling an anvil. A truck would carry the weight with less effort, whereas a VW Rabbit would bottom out and drag its exhaust. If you guys wanna gimp us, that's fine. I'll do just the same, because Heavies aren't the problem. Assaults are. After a week of your posts, I'm beginning to think that maybe you should just focus on trying to get good instead of having everyone molded into something a proper scrub can win against. I have to know, OP: What setup are you running that's getting you wrecked so much and so badly? What this guy said.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2393	Posted - 2014.06.17 14:50:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. I'd honestly support some turn speed reduction on Heavies over same reduction on plates, as a reduction on plates (unless it's effects scale by frame) would effectively make heavy suits faster because they have fewer low slots in many cases and, while brick tanking can certainly benefit them, they need it least of any suit when it comes to gaining HP/eHP since they already have high native HP and a built in damage reduction. /Side note: Armor/shield balance continuing is good, however I hope there's a strong eye being kept on making support roles more tactically viable because the trend in changes recently has been diminishing they're already sub-optimal status. CCP Rattati wrote: I like the deadliness of a heavy hmg as it is right now. If we were to reduce its efficiency in a future hotfix, it would most likely be to heat since that rewards skill and not spray and pray. Improving the assault is then my preferred counter to heavies, not nerfing heavies, most likely through racial tanking improvements, pure damage output and regen. Just my general thoughts on the subject. Countering Heavies through improving the assault role seems like a good first step, I'm on board with the idea of Dust 514 being a bit more rock, scissors, paper/incomparable based. That being said making assault suits more tanky seems like it will begin to distort roles and meta balance. Better damage output, and better regen both seem totally within role for the assault but bonuses to tank and damage resistance are hallmarks of the heavy role and in light of your prior statement that the Commando role was staying put in Dust (which I don't object to) it seems highly pertinent that we not push the Assault into even deeper role overlap with the Commando (which a focus on more tanky assaults would almost certainly do). 0.02 ISK Cross PS ~ Just for complete clarity, the current development intent is to make Scouts counter Assaults, Assaults counter Heavies, and Heavies counter Scouts, yes? If that's confirmed I have a follow up; where in that are support roles being made combat viable? And how does Vehicle vs Infantry fit into intended function? Thanks Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Jake Diesel Legion-10 166	Posted - 2014.06.17 14:54:00 - [40] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Rynoceros wrote: I have to know, OP: What setup are you running that's getting you wrecked so much and so badly? If you must know, I get wrecked often and badly all the time. I'm wholly unconcerned about those myriad instances wherein I make a mistake and die. I'm concerned only about those instances wherein I've done everything right yet something goes wrong. Take these two fits for example: Gk.0 NK Assassin (170k Isk) Gk.0 SG Assassin (142k Isk) Indeed, these both of these fits are paper thin. But they are also as reasonable as they are challenging and fun. They are specifically designed to break hostile lines and quietly "backstab" stragglers and soloists. Hunt, stalk, strike, disappear, rinse/repeat. Either of these fits should -- and often do -- punish combatants who part from the herd. Most of the time. Alas, one class of Heavies features an innate "backstab" resistance. Those armor-tanked heavies who've mastered the art of the bunnyhop+pirouette+backpedal can reliably parry assassination attempts by the either of these assassin fits. Should these special-case Heavies get a pass when an assassin sneaks up behind them? My thinking is that Heavies are uniquely devastating in forward-facing combat; I believe they should be uniquely vulnerable to attack from behind. PS: Yes, I know I could be more effective if I brick-tanked my Scout suit, frisbee'd REs and ran a Combat Rifle. I choose not to. If I wanted to play as a Assault, I'd skill into Assault Frames. There's an assassin class? I thought scouts were the lightest dropsuits. Huh, must be a new addition I totally missed . Oh and by the way, ALL heavy dropsuits are "uniquely vulnerable" from behind from a militia grade shotgun.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1970	Posted - 2014.06.17 14:58:00 - [41] - Quote Jake Diesel wrote: 1. There's an assassin class? I thought scouts were the lightest dropsuits. Huh, must be a new addition I totally missed . 2. Oh and by the way, ALL heavy dropsuits are "uniquely vulnerable" from behind from a militia grade shotgun. 1. Read the in-game description of the Scout suit; its been there since the beginning. 2. Only the bad ones, I'm afraid. PS: No doubt you think your quip is cute, but all that it conveys is "I have no counterpoint". Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2394	Posted - 2014.06.17 15:09:00 - [42] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Maybe. Might set off a power imbalance among the racial heavies though. Gotta be kinda careful about that. And every other racial suits internal balance as well potentially depending on how such a debuff were applied and how it scaled. One of the biggest issues with armor back when plates were deeply broken/nearly useless was the degree of movement cost. That was toned down to make them viable, moving back towards that in a (functionally) racially asymmetric way seems dubious to me. (Although if it's part of a larger macro balance plan and as such is a considered move along side other nerffs and buffs to polish racial balance then that could work. I'm all for racial diversity and balance, but we have to be very careful what thread we pull and how far). 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2395	Posted - 2014.06.17 15:26:00 - [43] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Jake Diesel wrote: 2. Oh and by the way, ALL heavy dropsuits are "uniquely vulnerable" from behind from a militia grade shotgun. 2. Only the bad ones, I'm afraid. You mean the Cal suits? I jest, but only in part. The Flux is one of the only functional (potentially) anti-infantry AoE/breaching assets right now. Flux a Cal Heavy and get in close with a Shotty et al the heavy is likely done. Speaking as someone who rolls around in a proto heavy, not infrequently, I have no problem with that. "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves" You see having the tactical set up to hit a distracted (and brick tanked) heavy from behind with a 'one, two, punch' takes setup, skill, and awareness. Such things should, by and large, be rewarded with results. But while this method can work to effect against the Cal the other (more armor based) heavy fits shrug it off to a great degree. If there were locus style grenades which were workable (perhaps the recent changes were enough to provide this at Pro level, we shall see) then it would become viable on armor based suits as well. I'm interested to see how CCP R's vision of interconnected balance is presented because, as I've been saying since closed beta, it is deeply problematic for the community to attempt to give feedback on issues we're encountering when we're not given a clear roadmap of "as intended" function. To avoid contention and miscommunication (both of which degrade the actionable usefulness of feedback and can lead to flame wars and hyperbole) we need to be able to answer both of the following questions What is the intended purpose of this role? How do we get it there? The problem right now is that, lacking clear vision statements/comprehensive road maps from CCP many feedback threads get bogged down in debating a weird and murky mish-mash of those two questions. It's very hard to find a method that works when there are fundamental disputes about the intended goal which are going largely unaddressed. Every role in Dust should be tactically viable! If not there isn't game wide balance. Now we need to establish an effective way to peruse that goal as a community. I am not calling anyone out specifically here, but I'm sure we've all seen more than enough "us vs them" debates in what should have been productive balance threads. Hopefully we can move away from that, and toward a higher quality game. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 334	Posted - 2014.06.17 16:20:00 - [44] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: If the penalty was very small and only barely noticeable when stacking more than 2 regular plates, I would be ok with it. Also to those saying that shields should get a penalty, they already have two: High PG/CPU costs and depleted shield recharge delays.
Jake Diesel Legion-10 166	Posted - 2014.06.17 16:21:00 - [45] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Jake Diesel wrote: 1. There's an assassin class? I thought scouts were the lightest dropsuits. Huh, must be a new addition I totally missed . 2. Oh and by the way, ALL heavy dropsuits are "uniquely vulnerable" from behind from a militia grade shotgun. 1. Read the in-game description of the Scout suit; its been there since the beginning. 2. Only the bad ones, I'm afraid. PS: No doubt you think your quip is cute, but all that it conveys is "I have no counterpoint". Not trying to be cute. Just stating fact. ALL heavy dropsuits can be two shotted by an advanced shotgun or proto. And a militia grade shotgun can three shot any heavy from standard to advanced, and some protos. Do you realize how fast two shots from a shotgun are? The ones who can do this know how to do it right. Most "assassins" can only average 3 shot kills. If you've been a heavy long enough you would know this. And no, I'm not providing a counterpoint. There's no need to. CCP has been known to favor the biggest complainers on these forums and all I'm seeing is this ridiculous back-n-forth tug of war between heavies and everyone else. Forge guns were nerfed to crap. The only ones viable to use against tanks are proto forges and a really skilled shooter. And the HMG as seen its fair share of ups and downs. And it looks like it's gonna go down again. Lol.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1978	Posted - 2014.06.17 16:46:00 - [46] - Quote Jake Diesel wrote: ALL heavy dropsuits can be two shotted by an advanced shotgun or proto. @ Rattati You heard the man, the Advanced Shotgun is supposed to do 900 DMG per blast. It presently hits for 450-500 per blast. Please update at your convenience. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 584	Posted - 2014.06.17 16:47:00 - [47] - Quote Please just leave it the way it is. It is likely to cause more problems than its worth. At this point in Dusts life I don't think we should be making any major changes like this. The fact that it will potentially affect each race differently is a good point. We just can't predict the outcome and honestly it's not a big deal currently IMO. FIX THE ASSAULTS FIRST!! SMG Specialist
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 224	Posted - 2014.06.17 16:52:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Ever since I first heard about this "discussion" I have hated it. I hope you realize that once a shotgunner gets his first round on you in the back, and you don't know he's there, your time window for turning around and melting him with a Burst is very short, if not impossible as it is right now. My first reaction is to back away from the scout, turn and see what happens. If the scout is competent and follows you while you turn away, you probably don't even stand a chance. I would be very careful in my approach to this issue. I don't like it at all, and think it's ridiculous. Leave turning speed alone. Edit: To put it in perspective, getting rid of basic RE spamming, but replacing it with heavy rotation speed... is like replacing one evil with another. I think shotguns and HMGs are balanced right now, and if either one is tweaked the other also should be tweaked. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Final Resolution. 227	Posted - 2014.06.17 16:55:00 - [49] - Quote As I posted in a very similar thread: Armor plates with a movement penalty do affect turning and strafing speed, a 4 stacked sentinel does turn slower than a no plated scout, but the difference is minimal to notice as we all painfully know. All this according to the SDE I must clarify. Ex: Enhanced Armor Plates Relevant attributes being: mCharProp.movementRun.strafeSpeedScale mCharProp.movementRun.turningSpeedScale All suits have a BASE speed, then for each movement type a scale value that modifies the speed accordingly: Scout ck.0 Ground Speed [ 5.45 ] mCharProp.movementCrouch.groundSpeedScale [ 0.3 ] effective [ 1.63 m/s ] mCharProp.movementFreeWalk.groundSpeedScale [ 0.35 ] effective [ 1.90 m/s ] mCharProp.movementRun.groundSpeedScale [ 1.0 ] effective [ 5.45 m/s ] mCharProp.movementRun.strafeSpeedScale [ 0.9 ] effective [ 4.90 m/s ] mCharProp.movementSprint.groundSpeedScale [ 1.4 ] effective [ 7.63 m/s ] I don't see any mCharProp.x.turningSpeedScale on the suits, but might be an SDE bug. www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1978	Posted - 2014.06.17 17:07:00 - [50] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: I hope you realize that once a shotgunner gets his first round on you in the back, and you don't know he's there, your time window for turning around and melting him with a Burst is very short, if not impossible as it is right now. My first reaction is to back away from the scout, turn and see what happens. If the scout is competent and follows you while you turn away, you probably don't even stand a chance. I would be very careful in my approach to this issue. I don't like it at all, and think it's ridiculous. Leave turning speed alone. I don't understand how you guys saying this. It simply is not true. Seriously. Strap on a Shotgun, find a half-decent Heavy, shoot him in the back and see what happens. Perhaps this is the reality of Bad Heavies (i.e. low armor, low sensitivity, slow reflexes). But is irresponsible to assume that all Heavies are Bad Heavies. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Final Resolution. 227	Posted - 2014.06.17 17:14:00 - [51] - Quote From my experience, the only counter to entrenched heavies with logi support in city maps is to use MORE heavies with logi support. A good scout needs skill and a bit of luck to get a lone heavy, but a lone heavy is not a very good heavy, for everything else, use a heavy or a tank. www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 520	Posted - 2014.06.17 17:26:00 - [52] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Saying it sucked with no explanation really is poor. It "sucked" because AR and SMG killed too quickly and we had lag issues iirc Now, most weapons have had their damage reduced while HMG was buffed and then left alone. Stunlock was also removed which would have hampered movement. Many lag and hit detection issues have also been supposedly resolved. I would say a revisit shouldnt be out of the question and the difference doesnt need to be dramatic but noticeable. If however it can be done by class then I guess plate penalty it is. "Shine bright like a diamond"
Grimmiers 593	Posted - 2014.06.17 17:44:00 - [53] - Quote Tanked heavies are fine, but the hmg could be more prone to overheating like rattati already suggested. Also the burst hmg's rof could be toned down a bit and should fill up about 80% of the heat bar with 2 consecutive bursts. I would try 18 heat build per second for the standard hmg's. It could still fire approx. 220 rounds before overheating instead of 4/5 of the entire clip.
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation 569	Posted - 2014.06.17 17:55:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Plates did reduce turning speed back in closed beta. It was removed for the same reason heavys turn speed was removed. It sucked so hard no one armor tanked, even if damage mods we still 3-5-10% as fitting plates meant being out-strafed by everyone not a heavy.
Severus Smith Caldari State 546	Posted - 2014.06.17 18:00:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. I've always wanted to play a true Heavy. The class where I am slow as molasses, armored to the tee, wield a huge DPS killing cannon, and thus can defend a point against overwhelming odds but am too slow to assault positions with any sort of speed. Armor plates could be the way to do this. Mimic EVE and have different mm thickness of armor plates. So I can slap 2x 1600mm Armor Plates on my Amarr Sentinel and be a crazy 4000+ HP bullet sponge. But I am not moving anywhere quickly at all. Actually, the armor plates in EVE are not bad if you divide the weight by 1000. +94 HP for 50mm Steel plates that weigh 15 kg. And +3000 HP for a 1600mm Steel plates, but they weigh roughly 4000 kg. (You won't be moving anywhere quickly under that load)
ANON Cerberus ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 840	Posted - 2014.06.17 18:02:00 - [56] - Quote I can tell you right now, as a mouse and keyboard player, when I am In my scout suit I can turn much faster than when I am in my heavy suit. The heavy suit still turns pretty fast but its defo a little slower and it just feels more sluggish. So while it may not be the case for the controller users, please keep mouse and keyboard in mind before you nerf hammer us any further. Still trying to find out what CCP changed the push to talk key too.......
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14582	Posted - 2014.06.17 18:24:00 - [57] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: I was under the Impression that they did. They don't. We tested it again today. I wasn't lying to you, Vitharr. Then I will admit defeat on the ONE point they SHOULD affect turning as that is considered movement. My other points stand though... A little surprised you didn't wail "but i tested it!11!" like you did in the other thread. Human mind is quite capable giving a false positive hence why placebos are a thing but i dont have the ability to record and playback on a frame by frame basis(which I hope you did =.=) and unlike others i'm man enough to admit MY mistakes Then you get a +1 for admitting your accidental bias. Good on you. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6065	Posted - 2014.06.17 19:51:00 - [58] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Dj grammer wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: As Rattai said the HMG only needs more heat buildup to reduce that spray and pray crap for scrubs. I also think that along with that it needs a slight spool up time but that would only come if the heatbuild up didnt work as well as we would wish. If my assault could just do more damage then Assaults would have a better time in general. Also I think it stupid for the Gallente Light to have 3 hp/s and mediums 2hp/s. It should be the other way around. Good point I noticed this today Gallente Heavy 1hp/s (why?) Gallente Medium 2 hp/s (decent) Gallente Light 3hp/s (again why? this should have went to the heavy class or the medium class) If you play your chess pieces for the role they are intended it makes perfect sense. Heavy squad offense/defense with logi support. heavy armor low self healing Medium squad offense/defense/support. medium armor mid self healing light solo offense/defense with no support. light armor high self healing The only one that was right was the heavy. Medium suits are on the frontlines taking the damage. You may be thinking about how scouts are played now because we have no Ewar so assault scouts are all you see but no, the description you have for scouts is solely an Assault scout frame of mind. A moment of silence is not enough. For their crimes, we must make the Caldari silence permanent.
Angeal Wolfbane Haus of Triage 13	Posted - 2014.06.17 21:03:00 - [59] - Quote Dj grammer wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: As Rattai said the HMG only needs more heat buildup to reduce that spray and pray crap for scrubs. I also think that along with that it needs a slight spool up time but that would only come if the heatbuild up didnt work as well as we would wish. If my assault could just do more damage then Assaults would have a better time in general. Also I think it stupid for the Gallente Light to have 3 hp/s and mediums 2hp/s. It should be the other way around. Good point I noticed this today Gallente Heavy 1hp/s (why?) Gallente Medium 2 hp/s (decent) Gallente Light 3hp/s (again why? this should have went to the heavy class or the medium class) Your little damage issue doesn't even need to be rectified. It is good as is right now. And two, if you guys are all whining about the Heavies look more into the little scouts running around with their OP shotguns and hiding behind their little cloaks. Number three, the heat build up gets more heavies killed then normal and you want to increase that? Oh and if you guys really want to increase that then at least make it where heavies can switch to their sidearms while going through the heat build up.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1334	Posted - 2014.06.17 21:05:00 - [60] - Quote Tie rotation speed to weapons. The heavier the weapon, the slower the turn speed. Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.

Oceltot Mortalis 5	Posted - 2014.06.19 11:35:00 - [61] - Quote I think rotation speed should be calculated by TOTAL armor points. Scouts stay nimble, unless they are super tanky. There should be an agility skill to make up for the skill that grants more armor. In life, I have this to regret. That too often, when I acquired ISK, I did not have enough of it. -everyone in EVE, ever
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2060	Posted - 2014.06.19 11:45:00 - [62] - Quote Oceltot Mortalis wrote: I think rotation speed should be calculated by TOTAL armor points. Scouts stay nimble, unless they are super tanky. There should be an agility skill to make up for the skill that grants more armor. Total or Max(Total)? Does a Heavy become more nimble, the more he's wounded? Edit: That'd require a client-side update. So .... there's that. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
SAIRAX SIS Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 76	Posted - 2014.06.19 12:02:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Hey Rattati... CCP have a favoritism of heavy & HMGs thats very very OP. New players will only be infringed. R.I.P HAV and so... Sentinel 514 Online. (PS,i hate HAV lol) hi :) yoroshiku ne !
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 744	Posted - 2014.06.19 12:32:00 - [64] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. You might be considered as a rational decision maker by suggesting that turning speed could be affected by armor plates... You would also be rational by making SHIELDS increase the Scan Radius of a suit, i.e., players who stack shield extenders have a much higher scan profile making them easier to see on the Mini Map. Newb
Oceltot Mortalis 6	Posted - 2014.06.20 23:24:00 - [65] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Oceltot Mortalis wrote: I think rotation speed should be calculated by TOTAL armor points. Scouts stay nimble, unless they are super tanky. There should be an agility skill to make up for the skill that grants more armor. Total or Max(Total)? Does a Heavy become more nimble, the more he's wounded? Edit: That'd require a client-side update. So .... there's that. Max total. On the immersion side, armor doesn't come off, it just gets holes in it, and the nanites repair it. So to go along with the whole concept of law of conservation of Mass, we should base the movement/rotation speed on max armor points regardless of plates. Edit: ooh! Nano hull modules in eve reduce armor count and increase agility, this is not very difficult to translate to dust/legion. I like the idea of a glass cannon as an OPTION, personally. In life, I have this to regret. That too often, when I acquired ISK, I did not have enough of it. -everyone in EVE, ever
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 120	Posted - 2014.06.21 00:43:00 - [66] - Quote I thought this was a team based game? I get the "lone wolf" philosophy... I practice it. I also squad up... I believe there is a place for both styles of play, however I don't believe every role (or any role) should have the pleasure of doing both well. without trying to pigeonhole the heavy into any particular play style, in my experience, they seem to shine with a logi at his/her side. it is in my belief, that with the wall of bullets they hail before them, it is only right they should be weak behind them...enter the logi (team based play) a good logi has a heavies six. this is balanced by the counter of taking out the logi, exposing the heavies back and destroying him. IMHO that is a beautiful mechanic...if you or ccp doesn't think so, then eff it change it... make us all super heroes for all I care... my destiny lay elsewhere....
TechMechMeds Inner.Hell 3660	Posted - 2014.06.21 01:34:00 - [67] - Quote Heavies are fine. I will spam your face with aurum proto.
J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 392	Posted - 2014.06.21 01:43:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Please no. As you are well aware, I'm sure, the turn speed cap is a good idea on paper which turns out horribly in practice. The quicker overheat penalty to the HMG is a much better idea. Most of the qq about heavies on the forums these days are from newer players who have no concept of how previous builds played. Please don't start making tweaks based on the recent qq. Dust 514... another leaf on the wind. PSN ID: B16D4mnHer0
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2115	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:05:00 - [69] - Quote J4yne C0bb wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Please no. As you are well aware, I'm sure, the turn speed cap is a good idea on paper which turns out horribly in practice. The quicker overheat penalty to the HMG is a much better idea. Most of the qq about heavies on the forums these days are from newer players who have no concept of how previous builds played. Please don't start making tweaks based on the recent qq. o/ Jayne. We (Scouts) have been working on alternatives to rotation as well. What are your thoughts on a fraction of a second increase to spool-up time on HMG? Say, 0.25 seconds? Assuming of course, the HMG Heavy is deemed at issue (it hasn't been yet, but we're getting together ideas for if it is). We absolutely don't want to break you guys. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
NIETZCHES OVERMAN Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 73	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:14:00 - [70] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. That would obviously be a huge advantage to shield based suits. This is not an argument to have. Is the scout with 400 hp supposed to run up on me with a cloak amd kill me? Is that really the, scouts job? If they want to make scouts into slayers they need to suffer getting turned on. We can turn fast you can get right behind us with a cloaked shotgun and res, stop qqing, turn speed is fine. Damn leave stuff be. My cal hvys die in 3 shots from a proto shotgun, he gets the first 2 on me before I turn around, now the noob only has to get 1 more before I shoot him, its fair now, if you think cloaked shotguns is fair, or hell smart for that matter.

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2076	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:23:00 - [71] - Quote NIETZCHES OVERMAN wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. That would obviously be a huge advantage to shield based suits. This is not an argument to have. Is the scout with 400 hp supposed to run up on me with a cloak amd kill me? Is that really the, scouts job? If they want to make scouts into slayers they need to suffer getting turned on. We can turn fast you can get right behind us with a cloaked shotgun and res, stop qqing, turn speed is fine. Damn leave stuff be. My cal hvys die in 3 shots from a proto shotgun, he gets the first 2 on me before I turn around, now the noob only has to get 1 more before I shoot him, its fair now, if you think cloaked shotguns is fair, or hell smart for that matter. If a proto scout with a proto shotgun gets behind you, its not supposed to be fair anymore than its supposed to be fair for a scout who runs straight towards you to have a fighting chance. It is about playing to strengths and teamwork. This is how a minja feels
Spectre-M The Generals 544	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:27:00 - [72] - Quote I like Rattys first tought on buffing the counter to heavies, assaults. Minnmitar in Amarr armor. A Wolf in Sheeps clothing. May the Empress live till she graces my sights.
NIETZCHES OVERMAN Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 74	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:52:00 - [73] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: NIETZCHES OVERMAN wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. That would obviously be a huge advantage to shield based suits. This is not an argument to have. Is the scout with 400 hp supposed to run up on me with a cloak amd kill me? Is that really the, scouts job? If they want to make scouts into slayers they need to suffer getting turned on. We can turn fast you can get right behind us with a cloaked shotgun and res, stop qqing, turn speed is fine. Damn leave stuff be. My cal hvys die in 3 shots from a proto shotgun, he gets the first 2 on me before I turn around, now the noob only has to get 1 more before I shoot him, its fair now, if you think cloaked shotguns is fair, or hell smart for that matter. If a proto scout with a proto shotgun gets behind you, its not supposed to be fair anymore than its supposed to be fair for a scout who runs straight towards you to have a fighting chance. It is about playing to strengths and teamwork. No ****, my point was its fair in that we have the same oppurtunity. And really theres nothing difficult about getting behind someone dampened with a cloak on, that very very easy actually since you can see where they are and what dire tion they are facing from 70 meters out.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2078	Posted - 2014.06.21 03:07:00 - [74] - Quote NIETZCHES OVERMAN wrote: No ****, my point was its fair in that we have the same oppurtunity. And really theres nothing difficult about getting behind someone dampened with a cloak on, that very very easy actually since you can see where they are and what dire tion they are facing from 70 meters out. Considering that if you have a friendly Cal scout with precision enhancers in your squad, you will still pick me up on your tacnet, so the edge is definitely in your favor. And I run a minja with about 200 ehp so stray bullets can kill me. I need the cloak to not die, and if I am behind you, and you don't have a cal, being cloaked does little unless you have eyes in the back of your head. A lot of the better heavies I have seen routinely check their 6, and can easily identify a cloak. I have much respect for them because they use their skills and tactics to shore up weaknesses, where as there is very few, and unfortunately dwindling, tactics I can use given the circumstances. I minor reduction to turn speed as a penalty to armor plates is not unreasonable. This is how a minja feels
J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 395	Posted - 2014.06.21 03:10:00 - [75] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: J4yne C0bb wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Please no. As you are well aware, I'm sure, the turn speed cap is a good idea on paper which turns out horribly in practice. The quicker overheat penalty to the HMG is a much better idea. Most of the qq about heavies on the forums these days are from newer players who have no concept of how previous builds played. Please don't start making tweaks based on the recent qq. o/ Jayne. We (Scouts) have been working on alternatives to rotation as well. What are your thoughts on a fraction of a second increase to spool-up time on HMG? Say, 0.25 seconds? And by "your thoughts" I mean do you like it more or less than rotation limitation? This is all assuming, of course, that the HMG Heavy is deemed at issue (it hasn't been yet, but we're getting together ideas for just in case it is). At any rate, we absolutely don't want to break you guys, so we're trying to brainstorm with you so we'll know what angle would be best pursued. Only speaking for myself, of course, but I wouldn't mind a spool-up time on the HMG similar to the RR. I would even take spool-up and an overheat penalty together, as opposed to the turn-speed cap. Just to make clear: I am interested in balance, because I play logi/scout on J4yne, and heavy on my alt Punch, so I can see both sides of this (like many vets, I'm not the only one with alts skilled into multiple roles). I just want newer people to understand that the turn-speed cap was really detrimental to heavy survival when it was in place, since by the time you are able to respond to a threat behind you, you're likely already dead. I would much rather prefer overheat or spoolup-time, because that encourages player skill with the HMG and not spray & pray, as opposed to an artificial nerf like turn-speed capping. And some of it is, it seems like we have a recent influx of newer players, and from what I've observed, they don't know how to engage a heavy except head-on, which is why they are all dying so damn much. I've had matches where I've mowed down scout after scout who wanted to 1 vs 1 me, and other matches against vet scouts that tore me the hell up. For instance, had a really excellent match last night vs Mr. Mustard, who along with one of his buddies knifed my fat a$$ at least 6-7 times, and I never saw him coming. A merc of his quality, he'll put you down, cap or not. So I don't see why we should reward a poor scout playstyle with an artificial nerf on the heavy side. So to sum, I understand there may be some need for heavy balance right now, but I'm strictly opposed to doing this based on inexperience with Dust's playstyle and roles. Dust 514... another leaf on the wind. PSN ID: B16D4mnHer0
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2117	Posted - 2014.06.21 03:14:00 - [76] - Quote Thanks for the feedback, Jayne. We're assuming that Rattati's going to work on Assaults on Charlie. I don't anticipate that we'd push for HMG / Heavy rebalance until after Assaults are squared away. This might change if (1) Heavies become more prevalent in combat as result of FOTM trending and/or (2) Rattati decides to postpone or not at all address Assaults. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 655	Posted - 2014.06.21 05:59:00 - [77] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Heavies are fine. Yep, It's everyone else's rotation speed that is too slow. How about we take the heavy as base, 1.5x for mando, 2x for log, 2.5 time for Assault, 3x for scout and make this game feel like a proper FPS. YouTube
Skylight Atoma The Phoenix Federation Dark Taboo 10	Posted - 2014.06.21 10:52:00 - [78] - Quote Don't add a rotation penalty to plates. It's already enough (perhaps too much) with the movement speed and the lack of ability to jump over rails with 4 plates (maybe it's 3, can't remember).
Victor889 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 123	Posted - 2014.06.21 12:09:00 - [79] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Heavies: Rattati might not that everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? Rattati has confirmed that everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). It appears that the Heavy's Rotation Speed Cap (lifted in Uprising 1.4) will not be reinstated because it sucked, though Rattati might be coerced into assigning a Rotation Penalty to Armor Modules. You are invited to "weigh" in ... 1800 HP!? how do you manage that? You mean EHP (total - shields and armour?) Part time Logi, Full time heavy.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2124	Posted - 2014.06.21 13:58:00 - [80] - Quote Victor889 wrote: 1800 HP!? how do you manage that? You mean EHP (total - shields and armour?) Terms (as I understand them) Armor - Armor Shields - Shields HP = Armor + Shields = Total Hitpoints EHP = Effective Hitpoints (accounts for +/- efficacy and/or resistance) Example SG blasts are more effective against shields than armor; this plays a part when shotgunning targets heavily armored like GalSentinels. In these scenarios, the GalSentinel's EHP makes it uniquely capable of resisting Shotgun attacks. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Bethhy Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 1991	Posted - 2014.06.21 14:24:00 - [81] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. It sucks more because of the Sore thumbs at the end of a gaming session or Carpal Tunnel that forms from using a mouse and endlessly moving it in one direction to get very minimal results. Turn speed caps offer more negatives then positives.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1146	Posted - 2014.06.21 14:35:00 - [82] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. I actually think that tying a rotation speed penalty to armor plates is a pretty elegant solution. I would certainly continue to incentives the use of ferroscale, reactive, and repper modules. Heavies that are max tanked and sort of a straight forward juggernaught is a viable play style...just like heavies that set their suits up for reps and speed and basically function like incredibly lethal assaults. Adding the turn speed penalty would further introduce trade offs. The other secondary effect is that it would continue to deter light frame suits from plate stacking basic armor plates. Whether that's good or bad i'll leave to other folks to hash out. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Hyuan BubblePOP Uber Wanabes 13	Posted - 2014.06.22 08:53:00 - [83] - Quote heavy turn speed is fine if the heavy user is using the ps3 controller, now its the heavies using mouse and keyboard that every scout is complaining about, 180-720 spins on a dime to counter attack, solution remove mouse and keyboard already ...
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 835	Posted - 2014.06.22 10:29:00 - [84] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. But if this happens then it goes to the Scouts That would actually be a good thing, considering how many scouts are just spray-n-pray while stacking all their armor up trying to be invincible dodgers. You get armor above your equipment class, then turning speed is a very small price to pay for that defense. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust, theme
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1771	Posted - 2014.06.22 11:49:00 - [85] - Quote The rotation speed isn't the problem, the lack of overheat meaning anything is the problem. I'll leave this here for those interested in fixing that. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
XxWarlordxX97 BurgezzE.T.F 4332	Posted - 2014.06.22 18:07:00 - [86] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: XxWarlordxX97 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. But if this happens then it goes to the Scouts That would actually be a good thing, considering how many scouts are just spray-n-pray while stacking all their armor up trying to be invincible dodgers. You get armor above your equipment class, then turning speed is a very small price to pay for that defense. The shotgun can kill a heavy with 2 to 3 shot so yes it would go to the scout,Don't even think of touching it I'm a Elite heavy "I don't rage.I get even" Please donate isk if you want me to pub stomp you
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2158	Posted - 2014.06.22 19:52:00 - [87] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: [ The shotgun can kill a heavy with 2 to 3 shot so yes it would go to the scout,Don't even think of touching it Which Heavy? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley


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