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Oceltot Mortalis 5	Posted - 2014.06.19 11:35:00 - [61] - Quote I think rotation speed should be calculated by TOTAL armor points. Scouts stay nimble, unless they are super tanky. There should be an agility skill to make up for the skill that grants more armor. In life, I have this to regret. That too often, when I acquired ISK, I did not have enough of it. -everyone in EVE, ever
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2060	Posted - 2014.06.19 11:45:00 - [62] - Quote Oceltot Mortalis wrote: I think rotation speed should be calculated by TOTAL armor points. Scouts stay nimble, unless they are super tanky. There should be an agility skill to make up for the skill that grants more armor. Total or Max(Total)? Does a Heavy become more nimble, the more he's wounded? Edit: That'd require a client-side update. So .... there's that. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
SAIRAX SIS Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 76	Posted - 2014.06.19 12:02:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Hey Rattati... CCP have a favoritism of heavy & HMGs thats very very OP. New players will only be infringed. R.I.P HAV and so... Sentinel 514 Online. (PS,i hate HAV lol) hi :) yoroshiku ne !
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 744	Posted - 2014.06.19 12:32:00 - [64] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. You might be considered as a rational decision maker by suggesting that turning speed could be affected by armor plates... You would also be rational by making SHIELDS increase the Scan Radius of a suit, i.e., players who stack shield extenders have a much higher scan profile making them easier to see on the Mini Map. Newb
Oceltot Mortalis 6	Posted - 2014.06.20 23:24:00 - [65] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Oceltot Mortalis wrote: I think rotation speed should be calculated by TOTAL armor points. Scouts stay nimble, unless they are super tanky. There should be an agility skill to make up for the skill that grants more armor. Total or Max(Total)? Does a Heavy become more nimble, the more he's wounded? Edit: That'd require a client-side update. So .... there's that. Max total. On the immersion side, armor doesn't come off, it just gets holes in it, and the nanites repair it. So to go along with the whole concept of law of conservation of Mass, we should base the movement/rotation speed on max armor points regardless of plates. Edit: ooh! Nano hull modules in eve reduce armor count and increase agility, this is not very difficult to translate to dust/legion. I like the idea of a glass cannon as an OPTION, personally. In life, I have this to regret. That too often, when I acquired ISK, I did not have enough of it. -everyone in EVE, ever
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 120	Posted - 2014.06.21 00:43:00 - [66] - Quote I thought this was a team based game? I get the "lone wolf" philosophy... I practice it. I also squad up... I believe there is a place for both styles of play, however I don't believe every role (or any role) should have the pleasure of doing both well. without trying to pigeonhole the heavy into any particular play style, in my experience, they seem to shine with a logi at his/her side. it is in my belief, that with the wall of bullets they hail before them, it is only right they should be weak behind them...enter the logi (team based play) a good logi has a heavies six. this is balanced by the counter of taking out the logi, exposing the heavies back and destroying him. IMHO that is a beautiful mechanic...if you or ccp doesn't think so, then eff it change it... make us all super heroes for all I care... my destiny lay elsewhere....
TechMechMeds Inner.Hell 3660	Posted - 2014.06.21 01:34:00 - [67] - Quote Heavies are fine. I will spam your face with aurum proto.
J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 392	Posted - 2014.06.21 01:43:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Please no. As you are well aware, I'm sure, the turn speed cap is a good idea on paper which turns out horribly in practice. The quicker overheat penalty to the HMG is a much better idea. Most of the qq about heavies on the forums these days are from newer players who have no concept of how previous builds played. Please don't start making tweaks based on the recent qq. Dust 514... another leaf on the wind. PSN ID: B16D4mnHer0
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2115	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:05:00 - [69] - Quote J4yne C0bb wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Please no. As you are well aware, I'm sure, the turn speed cap is a good idea on paper which turns out horribly in practice. The quicker overheat penalty to the HMG is a much better idea. Most of the qq about heavies on the forums these days are from newer players who have no concept of how previous builds played. Please don't start making tweaks based on the recent qq. o/ Jayne. We (Scouts) have been working on alternatives to rotation as well. What are your thoughts on a fraction of a second increase to spool-up time on HMG? Say, 0.25 seconds? Assuming of course, the HMG Heavy is deemed at issue (it hasn't been yet, but we're getting together ideas for if it is). We absolutely don't want to break you guys. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
NIETZCHES OVERMAN Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 73	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:14:00 - [70] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. That would obviously be a huge advantage to shield based suits. This is not an argument to have. Is the scout with 400 hp supposed to run up on me with a cloak amd kill me? Is that really the, scouts job? If they want to make scouts into slayers they need to suffer getting turned on. We can turn fast you can get right behind us with a cloaked shotgun and res, stop qqing, turn speed is fine. Damn leave stuff be. My cal hvys die in 3 shots from a proto shotgun, he gets the first 2 on me before I turn around, now the noob only has to get 1 more before I shoot him, its fair now, if you think cloaked shotguns is fair, or hell smart for that matter.

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2076	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:23:00 - [71] - Quote NIETZCHES OVERMAN wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. That would obviously be a huge advantage to shield based suits. This is not an argument to have. Is the scout with 400 hp supposed to run up on me with a cloak amd kill me? Is that really the, scouts job? If they want to make scouts into slayers they need to suffer getting turned on. We can turn fast you can get right behind us with a cloaked shotgun and res, stop qqing, turn speed is fine. Damn leave stuff be. My cal hvys die in 3 shots from a proto shotgun, he gets the first 2 on me before I turn around, now the noob only has to get 1 more before I shoot him, its fair now, if you think cloaked shotguns is fair, or hell smart for that matter. If a proto scout with a proto shotgun gets behind you, its not supposed to be fair anymore than its supposed to be fair for a scout who runs straight towards you to have a fighting chance. It is about playing to strengths and teamwork. This is how a minja feels
Spectre-M The Generals 544	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:27:00 - [72] - Quote I like Rattys first tought on buffing the counter to heavies, assaults. Minnmitar in Amarr armor. A Wolf in Sheeps clothing. May the Empress live till she graces my sights.
NIETZCHES OVERMAN Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 74	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:52:00 - [73] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: NIETZCHES OVERMAN wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. That would obviously be a huge advantage to shield based suits. This is not an argument to have. Is the scout with 400 hp supposed to run up on me with a cloak amd kill me? Is that really the, scouts job? If they want to make scouts into slayers they need to suffer getting turned on. We can turn fast you can get right behind us with a cloaked shotgun and res, stop qqing, turn speed is fine. Damn leave stuff be. My cal hvys die in 3 shots from a proto shotgun, he gets the first 2 on me before I turn around, now the noob only has to get 1 more before I shoot him, its fair now, if you think cloaked shotguns is fair, or hell smart for that matter. If a proto scout with a proto shotgun gets behind you, its not supposed to be fair anymore than its supposed to be fair for a scout who runs straight towards you to have a fighting chance. It is about playing to strengths and teamwork. No ****, my point was its fair in that we have the same oppurtunity. And really theres nothing difficult about getting behind someone dampened with a cloak on, that very very easy actually since you can see where they are and what dire tion they are facing from 70 meters out.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2078	Posted - 2014.06.21 03:07:00 - [74] - Quote NIETZCHES OVERMAN wrote: No ****, my point was its fair in that we have the same oppurtunity. And really theres nothing difficult about getting behind someone dampened with a cloak on, that very very easy actually since you can see where they are and what dire tion they are facing from 70 meters out. Considering that if you have a friendly Cal scout with precision enhancers in your squad, you will still pick me up on your tacnet, so the edge is definitely in your favor. And I run a minja with about 200 ehp so stray bullets can kill me. I need the cloak to not die, and if I am behind you, and you don't have a cal, being cloaked does little unless you have eyes in the back of your head. A lot of the better heavies I have seen routinely check their 6, and can easily identify a cloak. I have much respect for them because they use their skills and tactics to shore up weaknesses, where as there is very few, and unfortunately dwindling, tactics I can use given the circumstances. I minor reduction to turn speed as a penalty to armor plates is not unreasonable. This is how a minja feels
J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 395	Posted - 2014.06.21 03:10:00 - [75] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: J4yne C0bb wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. Please no. As you are well aware, I'm sure, the turn speed cap is a good idea on paper which turns out horribly in practice. The quicker overheat penalty to the HMG is a much better idea. Most of the qq about heavies on the forums these days are from newer players who have no concept of how previous builds played. Please don't start making tweaks based on the recent qq. o/ Jayne. We (Scouts) have been working on alternatives to rotation as well. What are your thoughts on a fraction of a second increase to spool-up time on HMG? Say, 0.25 seconds? And by "your thoughts" I mean do you like it more or less than rotation limitation? This is all assuming, of course, that the HMG Heavy is deemed at issue (it hasn't been yet, but we're getting together ideas for just in case it is). At any rate, we absolutely don't want to break you guys, so we're trying to brainstorm with you so we'll know what angle would be best pursued. Only speaking for myself, of course, but I wouldn't mind a spool-up time on the HMG similar to the RR. I would even take spool-up and an overheat penalty together, as opposed to the turn-speed cap. Just to make clear: I am interested in balance, because I play logi/scout on J4yne, and heavy on my alt Punch, so I can see both sides of this (like many vets, I'm not the only one with alts skilled into multiple roles). I just want newer people to understand that the turn-speed cap was really detrimental to heavy survival when it was in place, since by the time you are able to respond to a threat behind you, you're likely already dead. I would much rather prefer overheat or spoolup-time, because that encourages player skill with the HMG and not spray & pray, as opposed to an artificial nerf like turn-speed capping. And some of it is, it seems like we have a recent influx of newer players, and from what I've observed, they don't know how to engage a heavy except head-on, which is why they are all dying so damn much. I've had matches where I've mowed down scout after scout who wanted to 1 vs 1 me, and other matches against vet scouts that tore me the hell up. For instance, had a really excellent match last night vs Mr. Mustard, who along with one of his buddies knifed my fat a$$ at least 6-7 times, and I never saw him coming. A merc of his quality, he'll put you down, cap or not. So I don't see why we should reward a poor scout playstyle with an artificial nerf on the heavy side. So to sum, I understand there may be some need for heavy balance right now, but I'm strictly opposed to doing this based on inexperience with Dust's playstyle and roles. Dust 514... another leaf on the wind. PSN ID: B16D4mnHer0
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2117	Posted - 2014.06.21 03:14:00 - [76] - Quote Thanks for the feedback, Jayne. We're assuming that Rattati's going to work on Assaults on Charlie. I don't anticipate that we'd push for HMG / Heavy rebalance until after Assaults are squared away. This might change if (1) Heavies become more prevalent in combat as result of FOTM trending and/or (2) Rattati decides to postpone or not at all address Assaults. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 655	Posted - 2014.06.21 05:59:00 - [77] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Heavies are fine. Yep, It's everyone else's rotation speed that is too slow. How about we take the heavy as base, 1.5x for mando, 2x for log, 2.5 time for Assault, 3x for scout and make this game feel like a proper FPS. YouTube
Skylight Atoma The Phoenix Federation Dark Taboo 10	Posted - 2014.06.21 10:52:00 - [78] - Quote Don't add a rotation penalty to plates. It's already enough (perhaps too much) with the movement speed and the lack of ability to jump over rails with 4 plates (maybe it's 3, can't remember).
Victor889 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 123	Posted - 2014.06.21 12:09:00 - [79] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Heavies: Rattati might not that everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? Rattati has confirmed that everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). It appears that the Heavy's Rotation Speed Cap (lifted in Uprising 1.4) will not be reinstated because it sucked, though Rattati might be coerced into assigning a Rotation Penalty to Armor Modules. You are invited to "weigh" in ... 1800 HP!? how do you manage that? You mean EHP (total - shields and armour?) Part time Logi, Full time heavy.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2124	Posted - 2014.06.21 13:58:00 - [80] - Quote Victor889 wrote: 1800 HP!? how do you manage that? You mean EHP (total - shields and armour?) Terms (as I understand them) Armor - Armor Shields - Shields HP = Armor + Shields = Total Hitpoints EHP = Effective Hitpoints (accounts for +/- efficacy and/or resistance) Example SG blasts are more effective against shields than armor; this plays a part when shotgunning targets heavily armored like GalSentinels. In these scenarios, the GalSentinel's EHP makes it uniquely capable of resisting Shotgun attacks. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Bethhy Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 1991	Posted - 2014.06.21 14:24:00 - [81] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. It sucks more because of the Sore thumbs at the end of a gaming session or Carpal Tunnel that forms from using a mouse and endlessly moving it in one direction to get very minimal results. Turn speed caps offer more negatives then positives.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1146	Posted - 2014.06.21 14:35:00 - [82] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. I actually think that tying a rotation speed penalty to armor plates is a pretty elegant solution. I would certainly continue to incentives the use of ferroscale, reactive, and repper modules. Heavies that are max tanked and sort of a straight forward juggernaught is a viable play style...just like heavies that set their suits up for reps and speed and basically function like incredibly lethal assaults. Adding the turn speed penalty would further introduce trade offs. The other secondary effect is that it would continue to deter light frame suits from plate stacking basic armor plates. Whether that's good or bad i'll leave to other folks to hash out. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Hyuan BubblePOP Uber Wanabes 13	Posted - 2014.06.22 08:53:00 - [83] - Quote heavy turn speed is fine if the heavy user is using the ps3 controller, now its the heavies using mouse and keyboard that every scout is complaining about, 180-720 spins on a dime to counter attack, solution remove mouse and keyboard already ...
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 835	Posted - 2014.06.22 10:29:00 - [84] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. But if this happens then it goes to the Scouts That would actually be a good thing, considering how many scouts are just spray-n-pray while stacking all their armor up trying to be invincible dodgers. You get armor above your equipment class, then turning speed is a very small price to pay for that defense. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust, theme
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1771	Posted - 2014.06.22 11:49:00 - [85] - Quote The rotation speed isn't the problem, the lack of overheat meaning anything is the problem. I'll leave this here for those interested in fixing that. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
XxWarlordxX97 BurgezzE.T.F 4332	Posted - 2014.06.22 18:07:00 - [86] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: XxWarlordxX97 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: That everyone's Max Rotation Speeds are exactly the same (heavy or light, plates or no plates). I wouldn't pop the champagne until he weighs in on this point; I'm beginning to think its a bug. But while we're on the point, do you guys think that the arse of an 1800HP Gal Sentinel should be his "soft spot" or "weak point"? Or do you think he should be able respond to threats from behind as readily as anyone else? You guys already know what I think ... what do you think? We know and it sucked to be a heavy when turning speed was lower, I don't remember when that was. I might be coerced into saying maybe turning speed could be affected by plates. But if this happens then it goes to the Scouts That would actually be a good thing, considering how many scouts are just spray-n-pray while stacking all their armor up trying to be invincible dodgers. You get armor above your equipment class, then turning speed is a very small price to pay for that defense. The shotgun can kill a heavy with 2 to 3 shot so yes it would go to the scout,Don't even think of touching it I'm a Elite heavy "I don't rage.I get even" Please donate isk if you want me to pub stomp you
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2158	Posted - 2014.06.22 19:52:00 - [87] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: [ The shotgun can kill a heavy with 2 to 3 shot so yes it would go to the scout,Don't even think of touching it Which Heavy? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley


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