DUST Search - Heavies, you're not the problem, the HMG is.

Bormir1r wrote:

J4yne C0bb wrote:

Bormir1r wrote:

1. The HMG output is incredible, however I will concede that this is the role of the heavy. As Lynn Beck said, heavies should be feared, however they shouldn't be able to do 360s and whiplashing scouts without even noticing. (You can even imagine this. A heavy feels a little tickle from a bad shotgun blast, then whips around while blasting his HMG with no aim, and suddenly sees a scout drop down to the ground, no longer moving. The player all of a sudden seems stunned, surprised with the amazing power the HMG holds.) It also makes sense that because heavies are "heavier," they should turn slower do to their weight/ weight of the weapon.

I'm sorry my man, but this simply is not an fair characterization of heavy vs. scout play, at least from the heavy perspective. It's true that you can turn much quicker than before, but it's still pretty easy to get pwned by a good shotgun scout or REs. And it's not simply a matter of whipping around then spray and pray -- even if I whip around quick enough, I still have to get a bead on the quick bastard and keep up with his quicker strafing ability to put him down. It takes maybe 2-3 good shots to end a heavy, and it's pretty easy to lose to a scout even if you do have time to whip around and fire, because by the time you do, he only needs one more killing shot.

There's a lot more skill involved in evading a shotgun to the back of the head that you are giving heavies credit for. Not trying to be argumentative with you, just saying.

Ok, I can sympathize with the heavies, but you have to at least grant the fact that an immobile scout is a dead scout, and this comes from the sprinting glitch, and also the slug bullets which we're still experiencing now. Also it takes an average of 4 SG shots to kill a heavy, and up to 5 or 6 shots for a Gall Heavy, which to me makes it a little too hard to kill a heavy, and not taking into account the really bad hit detection from the shotgun.

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Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 426	Posted - 2014.06.14 19:01:00 - [61] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: They removed the slow-down from bullets in the recent hotfix. Anything you are experiencing is purely your imagination, and your imagination is no cause to ask for nerfs on an unrelated suit. I still experience the sprinting glitch, which happens every time I fire my shotgun or activate my cloak and I immediately start sprinting after this action. Definitely not my imagination, and granted we don't need to nerf the HMG, but something needs to be done about this bug. "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. Oh wait, mk.0 Scouts do it... Oops.
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 888	Posted - 2014.06.14 20:07:00 - [62] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: They removed the slow-down from bullets in the recent hotfix. Anything you are experiencing is purely your imagination, and your imagination is no cause to ask for nerfs on an unrelated suit. I still experience the sprinting glitch, which happens every time I fire my shotgun or activate my cloak and I immediately start sprinting after this action. Definitely not my imagination, and granted we don't need to nerf the HMG, but something needs to be done about this bug. Still don't see the point in common with a call for HMG nerf.... Cal.Heavy-Min.Heavy-Amarr.Heavy Believe in the FORGE, young padawans SoloDoloreSuCharlie
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1052	Posted - 2014.06.14 20:13:00 - [63] - Quote the HMG is not OP, but they gave it some ridiculous range so heavies can now kill at range with a std HMG instead of an assualt HMG. nerf the range and it will be somewhat more reasonable In Rust We Trust Vherokior Warrior My Honor is for the Republic
J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 373	Posted - 2014.06.14 20:56:00 - [64] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: J4yne C0bb wrote: Bormir1r wrote: 1. The HMG output is incredible, however I will concede that this is the role of the heavy. As Lynn Beck said, heavies should be feared, however they shouldn't be able to do 360s and whiplashing scouts without even noticing. (You can even imagine this. A heavy feels a little tickle from a bad shotgun blast, then whips around while blasting his HMG with no aim, and suddenly sees a scout drop down to the ground, no longer moving. The player all of a sudden seems stunned, surprised with the amazing power the HMG holds.) It also makes sense that because heavies are "heavier," they should turn slower do to their weight/ weight of the weapon. I'm sorry my man, but this simply is not an fair characterization of heavy vs. scout play, at least from the heavy perspective. It's true that you can turn much quicker than before, but it's still pretty easy to get pwned by a good shotgun scout or REs. And it's not simply a matter of whipping around then spray and pray -- even if I whip around quick enough, I still have to get a bead on the quick bastard and keep up with his quicker strafing ability to put him down. It takes maybe 2-3 good shots to end a heavy, and it's pretty easy to lose to a scout even if you do have time to whip around and fire, because by the time you do, he only needs one more killing shot. There's a lot more skill involved in evading a shotgun to the back of the head that you are giving heavies credit for. Not trying to be argumentative with you, just saying. Ok, I can sympathize with the heavies, but you have to at least grant the fact that an immobile scout is a dead scout, and this comes from the sprinting glitch, and also the slug bullets which we're still experiencing now. Also it takes an average of 4 SG shots to kill a heavy, and up to 5 or 6 shots for a Gall Heavy, which to me makes it a little too hard to kill a heavy, and not taking into account the really bad hit detection from the shotgun. You make some good points, I concede that. I do think that the effective range is a bit much for the HMG, because I have killed and been killed at about 40 meters, which I think is a little on the high side for that weapon... it could probably be reduced slightly, maybe 35, no less than 30. But the turn speed cap, that one I can't go with you on -- It sounds like a good idea in theory, but truly, it made the class virtually unplayable. CCP already tried that around 1.4 to 1.7 (I think? I forget), and i played heavy pretty exclusively back then. The turn speed cap, coupled with the dispersion problems with the HMG at the time (where it acted like a short-range laser rifle), it was a nightmare, no joke. Even in CQC, you couldn't aim fast enough to defend yourself, where you were supposed to be king. 1.0 kdr matches were pretty common, for me anyway. Honestly, I think some of this is that there are some really good heavies around now, and it's due to trial by fire, at having to overcome all the restrictions placed on the heavy class in previous builds. If you played through that period as a fatman, it really sharpened your gun game, cause despite that big circle reticle, unless your tiny little white dot in the center was directly on target, you weren't hitting jack ***. And the cap to turn speed really upped your situational awareness about where your enemies were coming from, and predicting enemy movements, cause if you didn't, it meant you were quickly dead. All of us hated those damn restrictions, but honestly, it really did breed a better class of heavy. A similar thing happened recently in 1.8, when REs became the go-to offensive weapon against heavies-- you know how many times I blundered dumbly into an scout's RE trap right after that build dropped? It was embarrassingly common, for me and a lot of other fatmen, let me tell ya. It took about a month or more until I learned to recognize and avoid those situations. Same can be said about scouts, I think. Personally, I enjoy scout, but I actually suck at it, compared to those guys who played all through the pre-cloak builds where the scout class was crap. I have no idea how Moody, Mustard or Fusion do it, but I'm sure it's borne of the same trial by fire heavies went through. Dust 514... another leaf on the wind.* PSN ID: B16D4mnHer0
Defy Gravity 428	Posted - 2014.06.14 21:06:00 - [65] - Quote The hmg is supposed to be OP its fine fu-ck off we have to deal with scouts, combat rifles, shotguns, tanks, and re's, So again.... fu-ck off If I kill you in game, look for a confirmation that says "I Just Killed You"
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 277	Posted - 2014.06.14 22:05:00 - [66] - Quote I'm adding my 0.02 ISK pretty late to this discussion, but I'm surprised this is an issue. I'm a scout and I don't think the HMG is OP. I accept that that's what a HMG does, rip everything to pieces. Just stay away from tight corridors with a heavy standing at the other end with his HMG. Your not going to win. Desperate attempt to get BPOs
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4434	Posted - 2014.06.15 00:51:00 - [67] - Quote sabre prime wrote: I'm adding my 0.02 ISK pretty late to this discussion, but I'm surprised this is an issue. I'm a scout and I don't think the HMG is OP. I accept that that's what a HMG does, rip everything to pieces. Just stay away from tight corridors with a heavy standing at the other end with his HMG. Your not going to win. That's just it though. It isn't an issue. It's just stream of conscious in this forum goes full circle, until every single feature of the game has been thoroughly bitched about.
aaaasdff ertgfdd Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2014.06.15 01:02:00 - [68] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I also think their rotation speed has something to do with it. They are significantly heavier, use an incredibly heavy weapon, yet can pirouette pretty much the same as anyone else. Its easy to get kills when you can spam the HMG 360 at the speed a fast scout can run around you in CQC. Not much skill involved. About as much skill as a shotgun scout decloaking off the port bow like an Eve Klingon and OHK anything in the game except a heavy. I think if scouts were balanced heavies would be very OP but because of scouts I think they are fine. Shooting an entire room down with a shotgun, or killing a whole room with 1 remote, is the same thing to me as an HMG mowing the noobs trying to cqc a sentinel with a hmg wearing only 400 hp scout suits.
aaaasdff ertgfdd Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2014.06.15 01:04:00 - [69] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: sabre prime wrote: I'm adding my 0.02 ISK pretty late to this discussion, but I'm surprised this is an issue. I'm a scout and I don't think the HMG is OP. I accept that that's what a HMG does, rip everything to pieces. Just stay away from tight corridors with a heavy standing at the other end with his HMG. Your not going to win. That's just it though. It isn't an issue. It's just stream of conscious in this forum goes full circle, until every single feature of the game has been thoroughly bitched about. We have been in this cycle of nerf hmg at least 3 times.
Michael Arck 4690	Posted - 2014.06.15 01:32:00 - [70] - Quote People are really trying to rally up to nerf the heavy any which way they can. This is just terrible. It's a Sentinel. Its doing what its supposed to do. I don't know how many times that must be said for folks to realize that. Any nerfing to the heavy or the HMG will only nerf its role as a whole on the battlefield. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*

Michael Arck 4690	Posted - 2014.06.15 01:34:00 - [71] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: sabre prime wrote: I'm adding my 0.02 ISK pretty late to this discussion, but I'm surprised this is an issue. I'm a scout and I don't think the HMG is OP. I accept that that's what a HMG does, rip everything to pieces. Just stay away from tight corridors with a heavy standing at the other end with his HMG. Your not going to win. That's just it though. It isn't an issue. It's just stream of conscious in this forum goes full circle, until every single feature of the game has been thoroughly bitched about. Pretty much this. They hack it until it can get hacked no more and then pick up the role and want it to be buffed. It's a repetitive cycle that is unhealthy. I hope, with my fingers crossed, that this stuff isn't listened to. I think I know better though. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Tectonic Fusion 1692	Posted - 2014.06.15 03:18:00 - [72] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: II get it whenever I immediately sprint after activating my cloak and after shooting my shotgun. As a scout, it is of utter importance for me to move immediately after firing my shotgun, because every second counts. Heh? I get it whenever I cloak then immediately start running.
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 104	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:37:00 - [73] - Quote There Is nothing wrong with the hmg, nothing at all. it's a heavy machine gun! the range is fine, when people shoot one from that far the thing is they waste a lot of ammunition. reducing their turn speed would turn them back into sitting ducks. there are plenty of tactics to use in order to counter the advantages of a heavy. the only thing that heavies are good for is killing at close ranges that requires everything they have been given up to now. heavies are already vulnerable to scouts with shotguns and remotes, to the point of almost insta-kill people who are trying to get the heavies nerfed now are just people who want to be able to play without any thought at all. spray and pray playstyles are becoming a thing of the past folks. move on.
Powerh8er Ganking Jugend 440	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:24:00 - [74] - Quote If the heavies turn speed is nerfed then heavies will have no chance whatsever against shotgun scouts. which is total bs. The armor tanked sentinel with HMG is currently struggling to compete against acr scouts in cqc because of the stun lock removal, scouts just strafe through the beam now. witch is total bs. Any nerf to it will ruin HMG heavies again.


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