DUST Search - Heavies, you're not the problem, the HMG is.

J4yne C0bb wrote:

Bormir1r wrote:

1. The HMG output is incredible, however I will concede that this is the role of the heavy. As Lynn Beck said, heavies should be feared, however they shouldn't be able to do 360s and whiplashing scouts without even noticing. (You can even imagine this. A heavy feels a little tickle from a bad shotgun blast, then whips around while blasting his HMG with no aim, and suddenly sees a scout drop down to the ground, no longer moving. The player all of a sudden seems stunned, surprised with the amazing power the HMG holds.) It also makes sense that because heavies are "heavier," they should turn slower do to their weight/ weight of the weapon.

I'm sorry my man, but this simply is not an fair characterization of heavy vs. scout play, at least from the heavy perspective. It's true that you can turn much quicker than before, but it's still pretty easy to get pwned by a good shotgun scout or REs. And it's not simply a matter of whipping around then spray and pray -- even if I whip around quick enough, I still have to get a bead on the quick bastard and keep up with his quicker strafing ability to put him down. It takes maybe 2-3 good shots to end a heavy, and it's pretty easy to lose to a scout even if you do have time to whip around and fire, because by the time you do, he only needs one more killing shot.

There's a lot more skill involved in evading a shotgun to the back of the head that you are giving heavies credit for. Not trying to be argumentative with you, just saying.

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Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 415	Posted - 2014.06.13 23:29:00 - [1] - Quote This weapon is utterly OP. In one second you can just mow down scouts, and in two you mow down assaults. Granted the role of the heavy is to do a lot more damage but sacrifice speed, however there is too much damage. This is certainly evident from just the fact of when many of the weapons were nerfed in 1.8. However, the HMG was left untouched and furthermore had it's range buffed. Even though it didn't receive any future buffs, it did however gain an indirect buff due to the nerfs of all the other weapons. A single bullet does almost as much as a Six Kin Combat Rifle's, currently, yet it has *twice* the rate of fire. That means the HMG is doing almost twice the damage of a Six Kin, and the Six Kin is still an extremely deadly weapon. In this respect I suggest the HMG receive a slight nerf, to balance it's power/role compared to the other weapons. When many weapons were nerfed in 1.8, they were generally nerfed by about 10%, and in the same manner, the HMG's firepower should be reduced from 18.00 to 16.00, (1.8 rounded to 2). This should and would balance out the HMG making balanced in comparison to other weapons. "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. Oh wait, mk.0 Scouts do it... Oops.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1342	Posted - 2014.06.13 23:35:00 - [2] - Quote If the HMG is nerfed to the point where a light weapon does comparable damage what would the point of using a heavy weapon when a light weapon would do the same damage AND have more range... Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Feldt-Grace Anaheim Electronics Manufacture Company 10	Posted - 2014.06.13 23:44:00 - [3] - Quote The HMG is not OP, but the reload time could be longer~ TRANS-AM! Gundam, DUST and more Gameplays
Soreconyr Rise Of Old Dudes 64	Posted - 2014.06.13 23:45:00 - [4] - Quote It's just as bad as the RR and CR but only within 20m. The problem, I think, is Headshot Bonuses. Going to the center of the body won't insta-kill anything. But, anywhere near the head and you have at least a half dozen bonuses firing off every second. Blame skill or ask to have ALL Headshot Bonuses removed - from all weapons, if you really want to be "fair". July 17 - Destiny waits for no one. PSN: The_Rynoceros
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 10604	Posted - 2014.06.13 23:58:00 - [5] - Quote I really don't see what all the HMG hate is..... It now has a competitive range, the high DPS you'd expect of a Minigun weapon, and great magazine size. I'm not a heavy but it seems to me that the Sentinel is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing. "You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength." -Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
Scheneighnay McBob The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 5254	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:00:00 - [6] - Quote Feldt-Grace wrote: The HMG is not OP, but the reload time could be longer~ A clip size nerf might just do it, actually. Think about it: the HMG would become a breaching weapon- you want the first guy through the door to have one, but after that you'll need assault rifles and the like to back it up. While a group of HMG heavies would initially be devastating, they would all be reloading by the time a shotgun scout runs into the room as backup. péñpâ¦pé+pâìpââpâêpü«tÄïµºÿpüïpéÅpüäpüä pé¦pâ+pé¦pâ½pâäpâ¬pâ¦pé¦pâ¼pâ+pâêpü»sñ¬S+ïpéè
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1976	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:20:00 - [7] - Quote I also think their rotation speed has something to do with it. They are significantly heavier, use an incredibly heavy weapon, yet can pirouette pretty much the same as anyone else. Its easy to get kills when you can spam the HMG 360 at the speed a fast scout can run around you in CQC. Not much skill involved. This is how a minja feels
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1342	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:25:00 - [8] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I also think their rotation speed has something to do with it. They are significantly heavier, use an incredibly heavy weapon, yet can pirouette pretty much the same as anyone else. Its easy to get kills when you can spam the HMG 360 at the speed a fast scout can run around you in CQC. Not much skill involved. Plates affect turn speed so no a heavy cannot "pirouette pretty much the same as anyone else" unless they sacrifice HP to do so. Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
low genius The Sound Of Freedom 1975	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:26:00 - [9] - Quote the problem is ccp. that is all. rip ccp. it was a good run. www.forum.eternalcrusade.com
Izlare Lenix Last VenDetta. Dark Taboo 692	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:44:00 - [10] - Quote Give heavies a slightly slower turn speed and that would be fine. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1976	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:49:00 - [11] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I also think their rotation speed has something to do with it. They are significantly heavier, use an incredibly heavy weapon, yet can pirouette pretty much the same as anyone else. Its easy to get kills when you can spam the HMG 360 at the speed a fast scout can run around you in CQC. Not much skill involved. Plates affect turn speed so no a heavy cannot "pirouette pretty much the same as anyone else" unless they sacrifice HP to do so. It certainly isn't noticeably slower. Not when you can just turn around in a fraction of a second without aiming spewing instant death. This is how a minja feels
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3506	Posted - 2014.06.14 01:07:00 - [12] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I also think their rotation speed has something to do with it. They are significantly heavier, use an incredibly heavy weapon, yet can pirouette pretty much the same as anyone else. Its easy to get kills when you can spam the HMG 360 at the speed a fast scout can run around you in CQC. Not much skill involved. Plates affect turn speed so no a heavy cannot "pirouette pretty much the same as anyone else" unless they sacrifice HP to do so. It certainly isn't noticeably slower. Not when you can just turn around in a fraction of a second without aiming spewing instant death. From the perspective if the plate user it GD for sure noticeable. CCP Rattati Best Dev I gots to stop making 3am posts...
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1468	Posted - 2014.06.14 01:09:00 - [13] - Quote I've wanted to say something about this for a while, sometimes when a heavy kills me I see how long it takes for him to kill the blues or squad with me. It usually goes something like this, Heavy MH-82 hmg pvt numnutz Heavy MH-82 hmg blue berry Heavy MH-82 hmg blue berry Red berry Bk24 assault combat rifle blue berry Heavy MH-82 hmg blue berry I'm sure everyone has seen this or something like it in the kill feed. Heavies mowing down groups of enemies in seconds with the kill feed stacking up. This happens constantly in every game. It does seem to be a problem, as even a basic hmg is capable of this, in fact its rather easy. I raised the issue with a buddy of mine when he was playing on his heavy alt after he mowed down a good 3 or 4 people in a clip. We agreed the heavy suit wasn't the issue, that is the point of being a heavy sacrafising mobility for tank. So it was the hmg. The damage doesn't necessarily need to be reduced, but there should be a mechanic to prevent a heavy from just killing everything it sees like increasing the heat buildup for continuous fire. That way it would still be just as easy to kill a few reds but being a one man tank would be harder.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1366	Posted - 2014.06.14 01:23:00 - [14] - Quote HMG is working as intended. It should be a weapon to fear, and should crunch through everything but another heavy within optimal range. And i say this as a scout who dies in half a second. Prior to the buff I used to feel sorry when i saw a heavy HMG. And then killed them with ScP headshots from 40m out because they were so ineffectual. No longer. Now i see a heavy with a HMG, i'm wary. As i should be when i come across a walking tank with a mini gun. Knowledge is power
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1800	Posted - 2014.06.14 02:14:00 - [15] - Quote I like the heavies, they have their 'role' as the ish dropper in the squad, you just walk into a room and BAM! 1-16 people running to clean themselves. However, even against other heavies the HMG ttk is too low. As an HMGer, you NEED a Core Focused Minlogi5 to be able to reasonably last against 1 HMG, meanwhile any guy with a Six Kin Burst, just completely blasts through reps. I would like if the HMG got like- a 3% nerf or so in Dmg, or a reduction in Optimal range, keeping Effective out at range, as Prijectile is supposed to have low Optimal but large Effective. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 429	Posted - 2014.06.14 02:18:00 - [16] - Quote It needs tuning (a six kin burst can kill two scouts in one burst; true story, happened to me) , but id say to first nerf turning speed, and then slowly decrease the rate of fire as well as damage possibly. Scout V HMG
Lance 2ballzStrong SyNergy Gaming EoN. 5065	Posted - 2014.06.14 02:20:00 - [17] - Quote Complaining about a weapon that's SUPPOSE to kill...KILL everything in its range? What's the range? 10-15m? before dmg drop off? I remember the days when I would turn and run away from a heavy... then I remember the days when I used to laugh at heavies while I proceeded to light them up with my AR... now I see people are crying about them being a fearful figure on the battlefield again. As someone mentioned above, nerfing the magazine size might be the best way to nerf something that's doing its job. Problem is while other weapons got a dmg nerf, the HMG didn't, so it basically got a buff vs other weapons. Is that the problem? Before it was shooting spitballs at people. I look back at days when I feared assaults more in CQC than Heavies... just lol... but I guess that's what people want again. ( ._.) <('.'<) "There there Mr. Heavy, it's not your fault CCP doesn't care about you"
Yeeeuuuupppp 332	Posted - 2014.06.14 03:02:00 - [18] - Quote I didn't read the actual post but I'm going to give a +1 Agreed, because I've been saying the title of this post for the longest Rage Proficiency V Mic status: Muted Feel the wrath of my troll
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 417	Posted - 2014.06.14 03:35:00 - [19] - Quote I think it is very safe to say that there is a problem with the HMG. While many of you don't necessarily agree upon the damage nerf, there is consensus on reducing the turn speed, and I completely agree, because I've literally seen heavies just whip around in less than a second and mow down people carelessly. There needs to be a larger penalty associated with the HMG. I think one thing you all have to understand and haven't necessarily commented on is that while many of the weapons had their damage nerfed in 1.8, the HMG was the untouched. I agree, the heavy is close to a perfect position, but there are 2 things that make it so OP one of which I haven't mentioned. 1. The HMG output is incredible, however I will concede that this is the role of the heavy. As Lynn Beck said, heavies should be feared, however they shouldn't be able to do 360s and whiplashing scouts without even noticing. (You can even imagine this. A heavy feels a little tickle from a bad shotgun blast, then whips around while blasting his HMG with no aim, and suddenly sees a scout drop down to the ground, no longer moving. The player all of a sudden seems stunned, surprised with the amazing power the HMG holds.) It also makes sense that because heavies are "heavier," they should turn slower do to their weight/ weight of the weapon. 2. I think another important condition, which doesn't apply to everyone, and specifically scouts, is the Sprinting Glitch. You all should agree that a immobile scout, is a dead scout. What I really don't understand is why it's been 4 updates, and CCP still hasn't fixed the bug. I get it whenever I immediately sprint after activating my cloak and after shooting my shotgun. As a scout, it is of utter importance for me to move immediately after firing my shotgun, because every second counts. And with the firepower of the HMG, it is impossible to avoid them with the sprinting glitch. If these two issues were resolved, (I would even be happy if CCP did one of these things considering how long it's been and none of these issues have even been addressed), this game would be a lot more balanced and fun. "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. Oh wait, mk.0 Scouts do it... Oops.
J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 368	Posted - 2014.06.14 04:24:00 - [20] - Quote The heavy is performing exactly as intended. I say that as a heavy player who does pretty well, and as a logi/scout who gets killed by them frequently. Besides, the HMG did get something of a nerf in Hotfix Alpha when stun-locking was dialed down to zero. Stun-locking was most noticeable when caught by an HMG, where you had little chance of escaping around a corner or something once caught. Now other classes have a better chance of escaping when fired upon by a heavy, which is a fair nerf. Dust 514... another leaf on the wind. PSN ID: B16D4mnHer0

J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 369	Posted - 2014.06.14 04:37:00 - [21] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: 1. The HMG output is incredible, however I will concede that this is the role of the heavy. As Lynn Beck said, heavies should be feared, however they shouldn't be able to do 360s and whiplashing scouts without even noticing. (You can even imagine this. A heavy feels a little tickle from a bad shotgun blast, then whips around while blasting his HMG with no aim, and suddenly sees a scout drop down to the ground, no longer moving. The player all of a sudden seems stunned, surprised with the amazing power the HMG holds.) It also makes sense that because heavies are "heavier," they should turn slower do to their weight/ weight of the weapon. I'm sorry my man, but this simply is not an fair characterization of heavy vs. scout play, at least from the heavy perspective. It's true that you can turn much quicker than before, but it's still pretty easy to get pwned by a good shotgun scout or REs. And it's not simply a matter of whipping around then spray and pray -- even if I whip around quick enough, I still have to get a bead on the quick bastard and keep up with his quicker strafing ability to put him down. It takes maybe 2-3 good shots to end a heavy, and it's pretty easy to lose to a scout even if you do have time to whip around and fire, because by the time you do, he only needs one more killing shot. There's a lot more skill involved in evading a shotgun to the back of the head that you are giving heavies credit for. Not trying to be argumentative with you, just saying. Dust 514... another leaf on the wind. PSN ID: B16D4mnHer0
castba Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 474	Posted - 2014.06.14 05:05:00 - [22] - Quote J4yne C0bb wrote: Bormir1r wrote: 1. The HMG output is incredible, however I will concede that this is the role of the heavy. As Lynn Beck said, heavies should be feared, however they shouldn't be able to do 360s and whiplashing scouts without even noticing. (You can even imagine this. A heavy feels a little tickle from a bad shotgun blast, then whips around while blasting his HMG with no aim, and suddenly sees a scout drop down to the ground, no longer moving. The player all of a sudden seems stunned, surprised with the amazing power the HMG holds.) It also makes sense that because heavies are "heavier," they should turn slower do to their weight/ weight of the weapon. I'm sorry my man, but this simply is not an fair characterization of heavy vs. scout play, at least from the heavy perspective. It's true that you can turn much quicker than before, but it's still pretty easy to get pwned by a good shotgun scout or REs. And it's not simply a matter of whipping around then spray and pray -- even if I whip around quick enough, I still have to get a bead on the quick bastard and keep up with his quicker strafing ability to put him down. It takes maybe 2-3 good shots to end a heavy, and it's pretty easy to lose to a scout even if you do have time to whip around and fire, because by the time you do, he only needs one more killing shot. There's a lot more skill involved in evading a shotgun to the back of the head that you are giving heavies credit for. Not trying to be argumentative with you, just saying. ^ This I play both (speed) SG scout and burst heavy. Getting an hmg burst on a scout hitting me with a breach, advanced (any) or proto (any) sg can be either a) very difficult or b) impossible. By the time I turn 180 degrees, I have eaten (or have dealt if playing scout) two SG blasts. Also, doesn't every scout know to strafe the same way the heavy is turning (clockwise or counter-clockwise) and never take on face to face? Should be able to get the 3rd shot off without being hit (presuming 2 was not enough).
Midas Fool Watchdoge Explosives 444	Posted - 2014.06.14 07:09:00 - [23] - Quote I love 16v16 heavies in the research facility map. Just constant whirring, constant death. ZHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Oh **** two more heaviesZHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ZHRRRRRR ZHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ZHRRRRRRRRRRRRR It's kind of beautiful. If they remove my (totally 100% balanced) exploit, they owe me cash money and a respec!!!
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1352	Posted - 2014.06.14 07:11:00 - [24] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: I love 16v16 heavies in the research facility map. Just constant whirring, constant death. ZHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Oh **** two more heaviesZHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ZHRRRRRR ZHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ZHRRRRRRRRRRRRR It's kind of beautiful. I love that sound(also i'm drunk xD) have a like, though as good as that sound is the chrome LR will forever be my favorite sound Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Meee One BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 851	Posted - 2014.06.14 07:36:00 - [25] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: This weapon is utterly OP. In one second you can just mow down scouts, and in two you mow down assaults. Granted the role of the heavy is to do a lot more damage but sacrifice speed, however there is too much damage. This is certainly evident from just the fact of when many of the weapons were nerfed in 1.8. However, the HMG was left untouched and furthermore had it's range buffed. Even though it didn't receive any future buffs, it did however gain an indirect buff due to the nerfs of all the other weapons. A single bullet does almost as much as a Six Kin Combat Rifle's, currently, yet it has *twice* the rate of fire. That means the HMG is doing almost twice the damage of a Six Kin, and the Six Kin is still an extremely deadly weapon. In this respect I suggest the HMG receive a slight nerf, to balance it's power/role compared to the other weapons. When many weapons were nerfed in 1.8, they were generally nerfed by about 10%, and in the same manner, the HMG's firepower should be reduced from 18.00 to 16.00, (1.8 rounded to 2). This should and would balance out the HMG making balanced in comparison to other weapons. TL;DR Heavies are too good at point defense (their role),nerf them! Unless you're talking about HMG+ Heavy + LAV killing,working as intended. Also, i've noticed a rather lethal weakness with heavies....over confidence in their high eHP,and most are situationally blind(tunnel vision). Try this... -See heavy -Plant REs as a trap -Shoot heavy once -Let the heavy "chase you" -Occasionally turn around and shoot,just enough to keep their attention -Lead them to the REs -Make a "last stand" ducking into and out of cover -Blow up REs - +50 kill For everything else theres mastercard.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14474	Posted - 2014.06.14 07:53:00 - [26] - Quote A question to those heavy defenders. How do you counter heavy spam on an objective map? Not just a couple of heavies, but when the enemy team is spamming them. Shotgun scouts don't work because you get gibbed by a HMG even if its not your target's one (and also if it's a high level sentinel it can take 4 shots to kill them, at which point they have most certainly turned around and killed you). REs will get spotted if you start using them frequently against them. No other class has a prayer of taking them on. You generally can't take them at range because in an objective there's cover and a lot of them will force you to within 20m of the heavy. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 885	Posted - 2014.06.14 08:08:00 - [27] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: A question to those heavy defenders. How do you counter heavy spam on an objective map? Not just a couple of heavies, but when the enemy team is spamming them. Shotgun scouts don't work because you get gibbed by a HMG even if its not your target's one (and also if it's a high level sentinel it can take 4 shots to kill them, at which point they have most certainly turned around and killed you). REs will get spotted if you start using them frequently against them. No other class has a prayer of taking them on. You generally can't take them at range because in an objective there's cover and a lot of them will force you to within 20m of the heavy. High ground Or a shitstorm of competent scout. People who know how to use it and not simple FOTM chaser. Again the heavy is THE ONLY class that need to be supported and that cant do anything else than kill. No other way to do point than killing. IF a medium frame have an easy task killin an heavy...then whats the point of the heavy? Cal.Heavy-Min.Heavy-Amarr.Heavy Believe in the FORGE, young padawans SoloDoloreSuCharlie
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1322	Posted - 2014.06.14 08:45:00 - [28] - Quote I demand a video. Have a Gallente proto heavy (for maximum plates) turn 360 with no plates, and with all plates. Time it on both trials, and display the results. With this, we can definitely tell if this needs to be looked at or not. I don't have any heavy skills at all or I'd do it myself. Another solution would be to have the HMG itself also apply a turn penalty. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4420	Posted - 2014.06.14 09:36:00 - [29] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: This weapon is utterly OP. In one second you can just mow down scouts, and in two you mow down assaults. Granted the role of the heavy is to do a lot more damage but sacrifice speed, however there is too much damage. This is certainly evident from just the fact of when many of the weapons were nerfed in 1.8. However, the HMG was left untouched and furthermore had it's range buffed. Even though it didn't receive any future buffs, it did however gain an indirect buff due to the nerfs of all the other weapons. A single bullet does almost as much as a Six Kin Combat Rifle's, currently, yet it has *twice* the rate of fire. That means the HMG is doing almost twice the damage of a Six Kin, and the Six Kin is still an extremely deadly weapon. In this respect I suggest the HMG receive a slight nerf, to balance it's power/role compared to the other weapons. When many weapons were nerfed in 1.8, they were generally nerfed by about 10%, and in the same manner, the HMG's firepower should be reduced from 18.00 to 16.00, (1.8 rounded to 2). This should and would balance out the HMG making balanced in comparison to other weapons. No. It's not supposed to be balanced. It's supposed to be superior. If it wasn't superior the heavy would have no purpose on the battlefield. His only role is combat and he needs to be better at it. The counter to a heavy is another heavy, or multiple other frames, or attacking from range/geographical superiority. If heavies outnumber you then that means the other team is lacking in logistics and radar supplementation. They should be easily cut off once they are killed, and they should be easily flanked.
ANON Cerberus ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 829	Posted - 2014.06.14 10:07:00 - [30] - Quote My only problem with the HMG is ~Maybe~ it has just a little little bit too much range. Many times it can pick me off at 40-50 meters when I assumed that the damage output wouldn't be enough, yet the HMG does kill at range.



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