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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 912	Posted - 2014.05.22 21:41:00 - [1] - Quote Vehicle vs Vehicle may be in a good place, but Vehicle vs Infantry is and will remain the biggest problem in the game. The Blaster Tank and ADS consistently "steamroll" pubs; light infantry are and will remain without viable defense. Many of us had hoped, above everything else, that this would be the first problem you would solve. We trust that you will be watching and would appreciate any insight into the topic you may willing to part with. And we very much look forward to seeing this problem resolved in Hotfix Beta. Or Bravo :-) PS: Thank you, Rattati and Team, for everything you have done and are doing. o7 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1467	Posted - 2014.05.22 23:32:00 - [2] - Quote Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1358	Posted - 2014.05.22 23:45:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
JIMvc2 UNREAL WARRIORS 154	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:28:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. How about increasing recoil for the Blaster turret on the HAV, this way it would make it impossible for Tankers to kill Infantry and in the end, Infantry are happy. If you run proto gear, prepare to suffer the consequences. You've been warned.
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 796	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:32:00 - [5] - Quote shouldnt be impossible to kill infantry with that turret. i feel it should pose a serious threat to infantry. and one that should be able to break nearly any defense they create and punch openings for its infantry to break through heavily defended positions. though what ive been noticing in game is ppl going . hey look a tank. lets just ignore it till it kills us. dust 514 shall be eternal. pve for dust 514. oh look. FF somehow made dust better!.
Hakyou Brutor G0DS AM0NG MEN 673	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:35:00 - [6] - Quote I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. GÇ£War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.GÇ¥ GÇò George Orwell
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5456	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:38:00 - [7] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. you must be trolling. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
JIMvc2 UNREAL WARRIORS 154	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:38:00 - [8] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: shouldnt be impossible to kill infantry with that turret. i feel it should pose a serious threat to infantry. and one that should be able to break nearly any defense they create and punch openings for its infantry to break through heavily defended positions. though what ive been noticing in game is ppl going . hey look a tank. lets just ignore it till it kills us. Here is my loadout for taking out tankers. Caldari scout advance, 1adv RE, 3 Damage mods, advance Swarm luncher, Sec SMG, Adv AV grenades, 2 enhanced stamina mods, and 1 ammo resupply. If you run proto gear, prepare to suffer the consequences. You've been warned.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5563	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:39:00 - [9] - Quote Buffing AV Grenades instead of Swarm Launchers is a bigger thing for them to have missed. Also, I still stand by what I've suggested many, MANY times in the past. DON'T flat-out nerf Blaster Turrets without serious consideration of their ROLE. They don't need buffing and nerfing, they need to be given a role. Are they meant to be the short-range kill everything turret? Great. MAKE THEM A SHORT RANGE TURRET. Don't do the dispersion thing, just cut their range so it's ACTUALLY SHORT. Are they meant to be an anti-infantry turret? Great. MAKE THEM ANTI-INFANTRY. Don't do the dispersion thing, don't reduce their range, just give them a 20 - 30% damage reduction against vehicles. Make them less of a kill everything weapon so they fill a niche. MAKE THEM FILL A NICHE. GIVE THEM A ROLE. Simple. Or it SHOULD be, at least.
Hakyou Brutor G0DS AM0NG MEN 673	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:44:00 - [10] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. you must be trolling. No. I have experience in both sides of the coin. I have proto tanks on one character, and proto AV on another. In my experience, tanks are super easy to kill with a proto forge if you get the high ground, and the same goes for the ADS'. People just don't want to take the time to skill into such weapons and learn to train them like I have learned to tank effectively after six months of tanking. GÇ£War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.GÇ¥ GÇò George Orwell

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3161	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:48:00 - [11] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. you must be trolling. No. I have experience in both sides of the coin. I have proto tanks on one character, and proto AV on another. In my experience, tanks are super easy to kill with a proto forge if you get the high ground, and the same goes for the ADS'. People just don't want to take the time to skill into such weapons and learn to train them like I have learned to tank effectively after six months of tanking. Sorry bud but you are completely mistaken or biased in a bad way. Just my opinion, but there it is. One thing I suggest: Until you can make the argument of why you're wrong, you're probably not in any position to argue why you're right. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5458	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:48:00 - [12] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. you must be trolling. No. I have experience in both sides of the coin. I have proto tanks on one character, and proto AV on another. In my experience, tanks are super easy to kill with a proto forge if you get the high ground, and the same goes for the ADS'. People just don't want to take the time to skill into such weapons and learn to train them like I have learned to tank effectively after six months of tanking. I cannot take you seriously if you honestly think infantry vs AV is balanced. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Hakyou Brutor G0DS AM0NG MEN 674	Posted - 2014.05.23 02:52:00 - [13] - Quote Whatever guys. Get tanks nerfed into the ground, it's not like I wanted to have fun playing anyway. And no, I don't think AV vs Tank is balanced, but it's more balanced than people make it out to be. Try to use something other than remotes for AV Moody, you may be surprised how well it works. GÇ£War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.GÇ¥ GÇò George Orwell
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3161	Posted - 2014.05.23 03:03:00 - [14] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Whatever guys. Get tanks nerfed into the ground, it's not like I wanted to have fun playing anyway. And no, I don't think AV vs Tank is balanced, but it's more balanced than people make it out to be. Try to use something other than remotes for AV Moody, you may be surprised how well it works. I can promise you I don't want them nerfed into the ground. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5458	Posted - 2014.05.23 03:09:00 - [15] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Try to use something other than remotes for AV Moody, you may be surprised how well it works. Yep. That's all I know how to use! Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
killian178 S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance 19	Posted - 2014.05.23 03:11:00 - [16] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. you must be trolling. No,that's a legitimate statement. My ads fit is about 600k isk, 700k gunnlogi. Cheap tanks get squished easy, but that's kinda the point. Yes AV is UP but any, I mean ANY tank or ads can be taking out, solo even; the question is, do you have the moxxy to get the job done?
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1084	Posted - 2014.05.23 03:25:00 - [17] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. ISK should absolutely nt be a balancing factor, by this I mean something shoud not be overpowered simplybecause it cost alot. SOURCE: The 1+ trillion isk that PC has generated so far. Fixing swarms
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1754	Posted - 2014.05.23 14:20:00 - [18] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. Too cheap? Are you f**ing kidding me? My tank also costs over half a million, and I frequently lose multiple tanks per battle trying to battle those cheap ass glass Sicas. I can always win against one due to my experience but sht hits the fan when they spam them and one's on my ass right after I won against one of their scrub brethren. If anything vehicle prices need to be reduced. Or massive nerfs to militia and standard to reflect their low costs. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1091	Posted - 2014.05.23 15:09:00 - [19] - Quote Harpyja wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. Too cheap? Are you f**ing kidding me? My tank also costs over half a million, and I frequently lose multiple tanks per battle trying to battle those cheap ass glass Sicas. I can always win against one due to my experience but sht hits the fan when they spam them and one's on my ass right after I won against one of their scrub brethren. If anything vehicle prices need to be reduced. Or massive nerfs to militia and standard to reflect their low costs. I would say turret costs should be reduced, maddies and gunnlogis are already pretty cheap, it is the damn turrets that make them so expensive. Fixing swarms
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 967	Posted - 2014.05.23 15:23:00 - [20] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. It does have a very large impact thank you very much. The only way I could manage staying isk positive is NOT losing them every match, but I'm also a very experience driver. I will say that Soma's and Sica's need a price increase to better reflect their power. Tanks - Balancing Turrets

Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1756	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:26:00 - [21] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. It does have a very large impact thank you very much. The only way I could manage staying isk positive is NOT losing them every match, but I'm also a very experience driver. I will say that Soma's and Sica's need a price increase to better reflect their power. I'm more in favor of removing one of their non-main tank module slots and reducing PG/CPU accordingly. Also nerf damage mods down to 10% and I think the majority of the tank problems are fixed. My biggest complaint is that someone with 0 SP can be so effective and devastating, making millions of SP investment yielding only marginal benefits, if any at all if you don't count cooldowns. Seriously, my alt with 0 SP into vehicles has a glass cannon Sica with double damage mods and two plates that can wipe any tank off the field if I get the drop on them but also survive long enough to pop any tank in a head-on engagement. I do lose if I get dropped on, but that should be expected with militia mods and 0 SP. However, it's not justifiable that with 0 SP I can destroy anything out there with just 2 or 3 shots. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1606	Posted - 2014.05.24 04:38:00 - [22] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. It does have a very large impact thank you very much. The only way I could manage staying isk positive is NOT losing them every match, but I'm also a very experience driver. I will say that Soma's and Sica's need a price increase to better reflect their power. I'm more in favor of removing one of their non-main tank module slots and reducing PG/CPU accordingly. Also nerf damage mods down to 10% and I think the majority of the tank problems are fixed. My biggest complaint is that someone with 0 SP can be so effective and devastating, making millions of SP investment yielding only marginal benefits, if any at all if you don't count cooldowns. Seriously, my alt with 0 SP into vehicles has a glass cannon Sica with double damage mods and two plates that can wipe any tank off the field if I get the drop on them but also survive long enough to pop any tank in a head-on engagement. I do lose if I get dropped on, but that should be expected with militia mods and 0 SP. However, it's not justifiable that with 0 SP I can destroy anything out there with just 2 or 3 shots. Vehicle damage mods get mentioned a lot. Let's address a little bit later. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

MINA Longstrike 788	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:16:00 - [23] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. When MLT tanks are destroyed. Standard tanks are prettymuch fine (and if AV is going to be easier that may not be the case - they could quickly shoot back into the realms of being way too expensive). Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1520	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:17:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Harpyja wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. It does have a very large impact thank you very much. The only way I could manage staying isk positive is NOT losing them every match, but I'm also a very experience driver. I will say that Soma's and Sica's need a price increase to better reflect their power. I'm more in favor of removing one of their non-main tank module slots and reducing PG/CPU accordingly. Also nerf damage mods down to 10% and I think the majority of the tank problems are fixed. My biggest complaint is that someone with 0 SP can be so effective and devastating, making millions of SP investment yielding only marginal benefits, if any at all if you don't count cooldowns. Seriously, my alt with 0 SP into vehicles has a glass cannon Sica with double damage mods and two plates that can wipe any tank off the field if I get the drop on them but also survive long enough to pop any tank in a head-on engagement. I do lose if I get dropped on, but that should be expected with militia mods and 0 SP. However, it's not justifiable that with 0 SP I can destroy anything out there with just 2 or 3 shots. Vehicle damage mods get mentioned a lot. Let's address a little bit later. Lets do it now 1 per vehicle 15% more damage Next. Closed beta vet.
MINA Longstrike 788	Posted - 2014.05.24 06:22:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Harpyja wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. It does have a very large impact thank you very much. The only way I could manage staying isk positive is NOT losing them every match, but I'm also a very experience driver. I will say that Soma's and Sica's need a price increase to better reflect their power. I'm more in favor of removing one of their non-main tank module slots and reducing PG/CPU accordingly. Also nerf damage mods down to 10% and I think the majority of the tank problems are fixed. My biggest complaint is that someone with 0 SP can be so effective and devastating, making millions of SP investment yielding only marginal benefits, if any at all if you don't count cooldowns. Seriously, my alt with 0 SP into vehicles has a glass cannon Sica with double damage mods and two plates that can wipe any tank off the field if I get the drop on them but also survive long enough to pop any tank in a head-on engagement. I do lose if I get dropped on, but that should be expected with militia mods and 0 SP. However, it's not justifiable that with 0 SP I can destroy anything out there with just 2 or 3 shots. Vehicle damage mods get mentioned a lot. Let's address a little bit later. Part of the problem is the damage mods, part of the problem is the insane damage on the turrets themselves. 2 damage mods is over a 63% increase IIRC, 3 damage mods is around a 97% increase to damage. When you combine that with the already exceptionally high damage per round of railguns (especially the prototype ones) you can end up with numbers of something like 3700 damage per shot with an ungodly rate of fire. Rails need their damage rolled back 200-400 points and damage mods need to be brought down to about 20% for large weapons. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1761	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:07:00 - [26] - Quote @MINA - yes, railguns also need some nerfing. I was very disappointed when only large blaster turrets were mentioned, but that they weren't even going about them as they should: damage reduction. I swear that dispersion will make killing infantry easier. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
ratained Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 0	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:30:00 - [27] - Quote I notice these are mostly infantry complaining about tanks. The soma and sica are op for their price level. However the proto gonlogi and madrugar are expensive. 450-500k enough where you lose one you have lost the isk for 2 matches. If you nerf the rail damage matches will be plauged by blasters with speed mods since they just play the bump n crash game with rails until they are dead.Also with the av buffs and tank nerfs tankers are going to lose any chance of profitability with good tanks. I suggest removing some cpu an pg from milita tanks and droping a slot of two.
Ice Fitzy Heaven's Lost Property 40	Posted - 2014.05.24 16:08:00 - [28] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. Example, I use a gallante proto scout with remotes, proto swarm and proto av grenades with a cloak. I ended up against a tanker who is a friend the other day so naturally I wanted to take out his maddy tank, so I cloaked and snuck up on his tank got 1 remote on his weak spot before he noticed so I hit him with both av grenades, blow the remote and hit him instantly with my swarm once it locked on after a few seconds and got a second volley of swarms off before he got away. I DID NOT DESTROY HIS TANK. After he told me he was also been hit by another swarm, but his triple rep maddy just ate all the damage up. Where is the balance in that scenario.
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 3	Posted - 2014.05.24 18:06:00 - [29] - Quote Harpyja wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. Too cheap? Are you f**ing kidding me? My tank also costs over half a million, and I frequently lose multiple tanks per battle trying to battle those cheap ass glass Sicas. I can always win against one due to my experience but sht hits the fan when they spam them and one's on my ass right after I won against one of their scrub brethren. If anything vehicle prices need to be reduced. Or massive nerfs to militia and standard to reflect their low costs. lol, this is why Germany lost WWII. If your using proto in pubs well, I will spam Sica's for my guys 24/7.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 755	Posted - 2014.05.24 19:57:00 - [30] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. you must be trolling. No. I have experience in both sides of the coin. I have proto tanks on one character, and proto AV on another. In my experience, tanks are super easy to kill with a proto forge if you get the high ground, and the same goes for the ADS'. People just don't want to take the time to skill into such weapons and learn to train them like I have learned to tank effectively after six months of tanking. I cannot take you seriously if you honestly think infantry vs AV is balanced. I've been trying AV for awhile and have stated this before , when tanks aren't a problem, killing tanks isn't a problem. When tanks are a problem, killing them is a problem. A pair of decent tankers working together can defeat a squad of AV, a good tanker with infantry support can stop AV dead. Yes, if your infantry controls the field killing tanks isn't hard, but if they don't it is. I would love it if they could have an AV/vehicle event so we could see how it looks when everyone is motivated to kill tanks., because that is one of the issues. If you run AV gear and vehicles don"t show up you completely gimped yourself, so there is even less incentive to run it. So it is a complicated equation, but it is still clearly in the tankers favor. Because, that's why.

Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 755	Posted - 2014.05.24 20:00:00 - [31] - Quote killian178 wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. you must be trolling. No,that's a legitimate statement. My ads fit is about 600k isk, 700k gunnlogi. Cheap tanks get squished easy, but that's kinda the point. Yes AV is UP but any, I mean ANY tank or ads can be taking out, solo even; the question is, do you have the moxxy to get the job done? Do you? Join A/V UNITED channel and show it. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 755	Posted - 2014.05.24 20:03:00 - [32] - Quote Harpyja wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You also have to take into consideration that tanking is too cheap at the moment. When tanks get destroyed it doesnt have a huge impact on the one running it because they are not expensive.... On the other hand when I lose my 525k dropship I feel it and that means I go negative for the next 3 matches minimum. Too cheap? Are you f**ing kidding me? My tank also costs over half a million, and I frequently lose multiple tanks per battle trying to battle those cheap ass glass Sicas. I can always win against one due to my experience but sht hits the fan when they spam them and one's on my ass right after I won against one of their scrub brethren. If anything vehicle prices need to be reduced. Or massive nerfs to militia and standard to reflect their low costs. I think both. Tanks should be nerfed but made much cheaper. 70k tanks should be on par with 70k dropsuits. Because, that's why.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 100	Posted - 2014.05.24 20:16:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. I hope you realize this just means we'll be seeing more Missile Tanks. GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê] GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1762	Posted - 2014.05.25 03:58:00 - [34] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. I hope you realize this just means we'll be seeing more Missile Tanks. I hope you realize dispersion will barely change anything. It might actually make killing infantry easier, though no more uplink camping with headshots that's for sure "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Will Driver Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 59	Posted - 2014.05.26 07:46:00 - [35] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Whatever guys. Get tanks nerfed into the ground, it's not like I wanted to have fun playing anyway. And no, I don't think AV vs Tank is balanced, but it's more balanced than people make it out to be. Try to use something other than remotes for AV Moody, you may be surprised how well it works. Poor baby, my heart goes out to you. No fun when tank goes boom but love mowing down hapless infantry. What about the majority of players who are infantry, don't they get to have fun too, or was this game built just for you? GÇ£Creativity is knowing how to hide your sourcesGÇ¥ GÇò Albert Einstein
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4260	Posted - 2014.05.26 10:43:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. You realize that the blaster is worthless against other tanks in a serious battle, right? This will just further solidify the rail as being the only viable turret in the game.
Derrith Erador The Last of DusT. 1920	Posted - 2014.05.26 12:40:00 - [37] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: I don't understand why infantry doesn't quit there whining, skill into AV, and take us out themselves. FFS, one match ONE GUY with standard swarms kept me from getting kills because even though he didn't do enough damage to kill me, he did enough damage to scare me away, while he was hiding in a spot that is inconvenient for me to try to kill him. Skill into forges or swarms, quit crying like little babies, if you think it's so easy to steamroll in an ADS why don't you try it? Oh yeah that's right, cause it's not easy. As for prices on vehicles, as long as there are double damage mod sicas that can two hit my 500k ISK Maddy I think the price is fair. Oh, and Jihad Jeeps too. you must be trolling. Cyrus, you clearly haven't fought in an ADS before. Nor have you seen noob pilots (it's pretty hilarious). My main beef with this is that everyone wants to buff AV but the way CCP has done this before proves that it'll just be like the way it was pre 1.7, IE expensive and ineffective. I can agree with you on blaster tanks, but the fact is that there is a way to take out a fully proto ADS with ease, it's called teamwork. Very few pilots I know can avoid two sets of proto swarms synching their shots, it's possible. My personal opinion is that ADS and tanks, when fully spec'd into, shouldn't take one guy with a set of proto swarms to kill. Betty White, the worlds hottest grandma.
Benjamin Ciscko The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 2287	Posted - 2014.05.26 12:54:00 - [38] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. The blaster is worthless against other tanks in a serious battle. This will just further solidify the rail as being the only viable turret in the game. If you were going to cripple large blasters versus infantry then you needed to do the following. 1. Cripple the Rail's rate of fire. (OR reduce the effectiveness of rail damage mods) 2. Cripple the blaster's accuracy. (like the old scatter cannons, but a bit more extreme) 3. GREATLY boost the blasters damage output against vehicles. 4. Decrease missile spread and adjust shield multiplier (from -20% to -10%) 5. Slightly increase range to Rail's. This would have ensured every large turret type was usable against vehicles at the highest tier of competition within their range of choice. Currently if you don't run rail, you're either suppressing infantry or being worthless. Removing the one thing blasters do is going to make that a lot more black and white. This would work better. Tanker/Logi
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 969	Posted - 2014.05.26 17:31:00 - [39] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Well, the intent was to both recognize that and take steps to adress it by buffing AV through grenades and the PLC while reducing the Blaster efficiency against infantry. The blaster is worthless against other tanks in a serious battle. This will just further solidify the rail as being the only viable turret in the game. If you were going to cripple large blasters versus infantry then you needed to do the following. 1. Cripple the Rail's rate of fire. (OR reduce the effectiveness of rail damage mods) 2. Cripple the blaster's accuracy. (like the old scatter cannons, but a bit more extreme) 3. GREATLY boost the blasters damage output against vehicles. 4. Increase damage to Missiles. 5. Slightly increase range to Rail's. This would have ensured every large turret type was usable against vehicles at the highest tier of competition within their range of choice. Currently if you don't run rail, you're either suppressing infantry or being worthless. Removing the one thing blasters do is going to make that a lot more black and white. I completely disagree with that first statement. Blasters ARE NOT USELESS against other vehicles, particularly shield vehicles. But when faced with a rails, I do understand how it can seem that way. Boosting the blaster damage while crippling the rails, I think, would shift the power in the blaster madrudgers favor. Making it the new OP go to fit. Not only could you take out infantry MUCH easier, but gunnlogis would crumble in seconds. Madrudgers would be king again. This make me wonder, does the problem lay within the turrets themselves, or perhaps the tanks? I do see the turrets as a problem, but not in the way most other do. The problem I see is that the turrets are too static, as well as tanks. You have a single blaster, that is trying to fulfill the role of AV, while maintaining effectiveness in the AI department. Missiles are OP against armor, but crap against hardened shields. And rails are the end to any vehicle. Where is our AV blaster for dealing with tanks? Where is our long range siege rail, extreme range and low damage? Wtf can we do about missiles (these have ALWAYS been lost) Where is the variety? We need to quit trying to cram everything into the 3 turret types and actually create turrets with specific roles. For example, let's take the rails. -High damage, short range, low rate of fire, slower tracking. Let's call this the shotgun rail. Kinda like what we got now, this is our brawler. Range of 250m sounds about right -Low damage, Long range, High rate of fire, Decent tracking. Our siege rails. They won't outright kill targets, but soften them for other tankers on the field, or AV. Though concentrate enough fire and you can take out targets. Or blasters -AI, Short range, does more damage to infantry and less to vehicles, good tracking. Think 100M range max, and damage cut in half against vehicles. Want to improve your AV capabilities, slap small turrets on it and call in some gunners. -AV, double range of the AI, reduced effectiveness against infantry and full damage to vehicles, good tracking. So 200M range, does basically no damage to infantry, but decent damage output to vehicles. The key here though is the range. Currently, a blaster can easily drop infantry out to 200M even if they are applying less damage due to the range. But hit a vehicle at that range and it barely scratches the paint. The most useful AV attribute is RANGE I believe when it comes to turrets. Variety, that's what is missing. Things need to be broke down into smaller parts and quit trying to fulfill multiple roles. Or something like that. It just seems to me that we need more to balance against to help normalize numbers. Like AV needs variants, tanks need that too. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 969	Posted - 2014.05.26 17:35:00 - [40] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: My personal opinion is that ADS and tanks, when fully spec'd into, shouldn't take one guy with a set of proto swarms to kill. They should have to work for that kill, for sure. Even if I go AV now, while my swarms won't kill them, it certainly gives them pause and reduces the time they can stick with an engagement. Tanks - Balancing Turrets

Glyd Path Nec Tributis 75	Posted - 2014.05.26 18:33:00 - [41] - Quote I wonder why this has spiraled into such a qq tornado? They added +75 for damaging a vehicle. Twice before death which still gives the same reward. With an ADS it is easy to drive them away. This gives 75-150WP and a little breathing room for the troops. Taking down a vehicle (air) that is driven by a pilot that has skill is difficult and requires more than one mercenary with AV. Same for tanks. The militia vehicles go down quickly when driven by new players or those that aren't/don't/won't pay attention. The weird multi damage mod versions have little protection so they hit really hard but die even quicker. When I get hit hard while flying ADS I have to exit the immediate battle area. That or lose the very expensive ADS (which CCP had said they were going to make more affordable thus allowing me to hang around a bit longer - more points for AV). The other bit that is rarely commented on is what weapons are you complaining about specifically? xt missiles in drop ships are monsters. ADS for certain (I rarely use the others so I have little data on them). The problem is the xt missiles are the only ones that produce consistent results. The others are barely worth fitting. That is also true for large blaster turrets. Using a militia/basic blaster will produce a frustrating string of hits (with a ton of misses) while rarely actually killing reds. If they are prototype users then no, they cannot be killed by those weapons. You need to upgrade to advanced or prototype to have a chance. And if I am getting hit by prototype swarms or forge guns (or grenades) I leave. It is the only way to stay alive. When I am in squad I ask them to kill those specific reds and then my tank/ADS can return. To top this absurd topic off this is how the developers want tankers to play. Waves of opportunity, rush in and attack, use modules wisely and retreat to let the modules recover, restock the ammunition and reload the weapon. Yet, we have av players that are still upset about this exact behavior. Oh well, this is dust where all the qqs in the world just get lost in the dust. Nobody at CCP cares because we ain't Legionnaires.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 762	Posted - 2014.05.26 20:58:00 - [42] - Quote We need to look at dropships and tanks separately. I think dropships and forges are pretty well balanced against each other, I can drive off a dropship with a forge, unless they or their squad, is just outplaying me and my squad. Swarms are just flat out broken , even proto swarms. I have been in many matches with at least two of us firing proto swarms and a dropship just ignores us as we fire volley after volley at it. We are hitting it, it just doesn't matter. Once they get taken into armor they can easily escape and rep so quickly that they literally just fly out of range and turn back immediately. Pilots can argue all they want but the fact is even a dropship without a pilot is hard to kill with swarms, sometimes impossible. As to the argument that it should take more than one player to kill another player, what is your rationale for that? ISK? Should a proto dropsuit be literally impossible to kill with a militia AR? I mean the proto just stands there and can't be killed, because that is where we are wth swarms. Because, that's why.
Hakyou Brutor G0DS AM0NG MEN 687	Posted - 2014.05.26 21:11:00 - [43] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are just flat out broken , even proto swarms. I have been in many matches with at least two of us firing proto swarms and a dropship just ignores us as we fire volley after volley at it. When was the last time you used swarms? My Python is downed in 3 vollys of proto swarms. "I never pull out" ~Ace Boone, 2014.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 764	Posted - 2014.05.27 05:33:00 - [44] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are just flat out broken , even proto swarms. I have been in many matches with at least two of us firing proto swarms and a dropship just ignores us as we fire volley after volley at it. When was the last time you used swarms? My Python is downed in 3 vollys of proto swarms. A couple of nights ago. I don't believe your Python went down in three volleys from swarms alone. I don't even want it to be that easy. Because, that's why.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1037	Posted - 2014.05.27 11:57:00 - [45] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are just flat out broken , even proto swarms. I have been in many matches with at least two of us firing proto swarms and a dropship just ignores us as we fire volley after volley at it. When was the last time you used swarms? My Python is downed in 3 vollys of proto swarms. lolBS. * Nyain San Python hovering over friendly spawn; hostile troops closing in. * * Sneaked away from spawn using cloak; posted up behind bird just within max range of my WikiBubbleBlower. * Volley 1 out ... bird didn't see it coming. Impact Volley 2 out ... bird is now on the move; heading my way. Impact Volley 3 out ... bird comes to a halt hovering overhead. Impact. OHKs me w/cycled missile launcher. Observations: Bird's shields were knocked out with first volley. Second and Third volley had little-to-no effect on armor (remained around 80-90%). Using Proficiency IV Proto BubbleBlower with two Complex Damage Amps. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
manboar thunder fist SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 37	Posted - 2014.05.27 12:17:00 - [46] - Quote Lets be honest.. Ads prices are ridiculous.. For the highest skill role in the game.. Yes I dare you, counter me! I play infrantry, piece of cake, tanks? Ez mode... But ads? Basic swarms can knock me into a building and kill me, forge guns can 2 shot me with a 3 second delay between shots... And it takes me atleast 3 direct hits to kill them.. A rail tank can almost 1 shot me... Heck I got in a gunnlogi and killed 2 incubus dropships in 4 rounds.. They only hit their afterburner by the time they died... I think the reps on tanks need to be reduced o the point where they can't shrug off an adv forge gun or a dau2 assault indefenitely, but we must take care as drop ships are already paper airplanes 1.8 will shoot my amarr logi in the face with an ion pistol then bury it under a caldari heavy. No, not alive thankfully
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1037	Posted - 2014.05.27 12:22:00 - [47] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: Lets be honest.. Ads prices are ridiculous.. For the highest skill role in the game.. Yes I dare you, counter me! I play infrantry, piece of cake, tanks? Ez mode... But ads? Basic swarms can knock me into a building and kill me, forge guns can 2 shot me with a 3 second delay between shots... And it takes me atleast 3 direct hits to kill them.. A rail tank can almost 1 shot me... Heck I got in a gunnlogi and killed 2 incubus dropships in 4 rounds.. They only hit their afterburner by the time they died... I think the reps on tanks need to be reduced o the point where they can't shrug off an adv forge gun or a dau2 assault indefenitely, but we must take care as drop ships are already paper airplanes Your spokesperson says ... Bullish Anyhow, Rattati is on the move. Put your heads together figure this sh*t out before he gets to you. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3495	Posted - 2014.05.27 14:44:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Vehicle damage mods get mentioned a lot. Let's address a little bit later. Reducing Vehicle Damage mod bonuses, to bring them back in line with the Hardener Nerf, would have a couple benefits. - It would increase TTK for tank battles. A tank battle that is over in 2 or 3 shots before you can react is frustrating. A tank battle where a tank is killed in 4 or 5 shots while each tank tries to out manoeuver the other, is quite fun even if you end up losing the engagement. A tank battle where a you put 7 or 8 shots into a tank and it gets away is getting frustrating again. - If double damage mod tanks did less damage, then militia tanks would not be as powerful as they are now against other tanks. The extra slots of the Standard tanks would make more of a difference. Then the current price of militia tanks would be more in line with their abilities. People often say that Militia tanks donGÇÖt cost enough. But I burned through 15 million ISK in about a month leaning to tank using Militia tanks. If the price is rased too much, it will be a barrier to new players trying to get into tanking. If the Damage mods were nerfed a bit, Melita tanks would not be quite so powerful. This combined with improvements to Infantry AV should reduce the problems with Milita tank spam. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
aaaasdff ertgfdd Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.05.27 18:00:00 - [49] - Quote I think balance should focus on tank vs tank while mechanics should focus on making alll vehicles less effective against infantry. If it takes 2 or 3 average guys in pubs 2 kill triple rep Maddys fine, let it, but let that Maddt be less effective against them. I think vehicles should have more focus on vehicle vs vehicle, mand that way as AV sucks it wont matter as much. We can give that same thought to dropships, particularly missle based Cal DS, lets focus on more of anti tank, tansport, and air to air combat rather than vehicle vs infantry.... im not saying a 60,000 isk blaster tank shouldnt kill every proto suit in front of it, but can we just make it harder? Eh? Maybe infantry wouldn't focus so much on vehicles and would fight each other...
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 970	Posted - 2014.05.27 22:43:00 - [50] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Vehicle damage mods get mentioned a lot. Let's address a little bit later. Reducing Vehicle Damage mod bonuses, to bring them back in line with the Hardener Nerf, would have a couple benefits. - It would increase TTK for tank battles. A tank battle that is over in 2 or 3 shots before you can react is frustrating. A tank battle where a tank is killed in 4 or 5 shots while each tank tries to out manoeuver the other, is quite fun even if you end up losing the engagement. A tank battle where a you put 7 or 8 shots into a tank and it gets away is getting frustrating again. I'm more about having a tank battle that lasts most of a full clip. While before the major tank changes, a typical tank fight would go something like 7 or 8 shots and the tank gets away, yes frustrating. Now though, I don't think it's nearly as bad as you do get something for your efforts, WP. I really don't know if 4 to 5 shots from a rail could really be considered a very long engagement. While it would give you time to react and disrupt their shots, you can almost count on the first 2 landing, meaning they just need 2 to 3 more shots. That's like 3 more seconds above the current TTK. The way I imagine it is that a rail would need to actually watch overheat for one on one engagements. Right now the only thing overheat limits are the number of tanks I can blow up before needing to cooldown for the next one. One clip atm is like 3 dead tanks, stacking damage mods. Tanks - Balancing Turrets



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