DUST Search - Cloaks Are NOT OP!

Crimson ShieId wrote:

*Sighs* I was with ya on the first part... why'd you have to let me down? My 19" HDTV lets me see scouts fine, and my vision is actually pretty bad if I'm not wearing glasses (Think 480p compared to 720p... my eyesight is the first...) A lot of people like cloaks not because it makes playing a scout easier, but because it's simply fun. Dust doesn't exactly have the best available when it comes to infantry gameplay, shooting or otherwise, and for myself (and I'm sure quite a few others) the cloak isn't a balancing item, it's a way to add entertainment to the game while allowing for more options on a scout's part. Before the cloak, the scouts were viable on four maps, two of which were only the case if the battle was taking place in the city. Dust, being devoid of cover as it is in most environments, was a poor playing field for scouts running around with 300ehp, meaning most games, those who specialized in scouts had to pick another suit or be at a huge disadvantage. That's no longer the case with the cloaks, flanking is possible and ambushes are viable no matter the map as long as the person in question has the patience to take things slowly.

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Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 133	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:05:00 - [1] - Quote I don't understand why so many are crying about cloaks. THEY ARE PERFECT! I have lost count of the number of "invisible" scouts that I have put down (at least three with a sniper rifle). Nine times out of ten, if the cloaked scout is in front of me I WILL SEE IT! If he is behind me, then he didn't need the cloak. If the scout is in front of me and I didn't see it, shame on ME. Many complain cloaks allow a first shot while invisible. Well yeah, what else is it for? There is a trade off many don't realize; if you see the cloaked scout then YOU get the first shot because the scout has to take the second to switch to a weapon which may be all the time you need or at least it will give you the head start in that 1v1 battle. If the scout still gets you after that, well that is a good player who would ave gotten you anyway. ...or he's tanked. AKA - StarVenger
Cavani1EE7 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 20	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:19:00 - [2] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: ...or he's tanked. That's the problem. 1337
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 133	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:20:00 - [3] - Quote Cavani1EE7 wrote: Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: ...or he's tanked. That's the problem. Yes. And that is a whole different ball of wax. AKA - StarVenger
OliX PRZESMIEWCA Bezimienni... 94	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:29:00 - [4] - Quote First shoot when cloaked is a bug. That 1-2 bullets more make a difference... Everything else is fine.
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 134	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:33:00 - [5] - Quote OliX PRZESMIEWCA wrote: First shoot when cloaked is a bug. Well, If CCP says it isn't meant to be then I can't argue with that. But if they left it alone I won't cry. AKA - StarVenger
Cavani1EE7 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 21	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:35:00 - [6] - Quote OliX PRZESMIEWCA wrote: First shoot when cloaked is a bug. That 1-2 bullets more make a difference... Everything else is fine. Yeah, especially when those 1-2 bullets come from a SG. 1337
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8652	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:35:00 - [7] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Nine times out of ten, if the cloaked scout is in front of me I WILL SEE IT! That's a fallacy. CPM Game Join HvLP For Good Fights & Anime :) -HAND
LAVALLOIS Nash QcGOLD 145	Posted - 2014.05.17 19:42:00 - [8] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Many complain cloaks allow a first shot while invisible. Well yeah, what else is it for? Its supposed to be a reconnaissance tool, not a combat enhancement. Its optimized for scouts, not assaults. Right now its used as an assassin tool. Its used to make a armored, proto CR carrying slayer appear behind you after getting the first few shots. It should be more balanced in the sense that if you fit a cloak you cant fit anything else besides a primary gun and a scanner/uplink/nanohive. You guys can say what you want. Maybe on your 32in 1080P HDTV you can see a scout from 450m away, but most cant. It makes the game pretty pointless if you can just have near unlimited invisibility and just appear places after firing 2 shotgun blasts into someones back. But I digress. I wont complain too much. I believe in "equal opportunities", including for those who are severely handicapped at playing the game or have another major deficiency. If they need this big of a high chair to be able to sit at my level, then alright.
Crimson ShieId Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 449	Posted - 2014.05.17 20:37:00 - [9] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Many complain cloaks allow a first shot while invisible. Well yeah, what else is it for? Its supposed to be a reconnaissance tool, not a combat enhancement. Its optimized for scouts, not assaults. Right now its used as an assassin tool. Its used to make a armored, proto CR carrying slayer appear behind you after getting the first few shots. It should be more balanced in the sense that if you fit a cloak you cant fit anything else besides a primary gun and a scanner/uplink/nanohive. You guys can say what you want. Maybe on your 32in 1080P HDTV you can see a scout from 450m away, but most cant. It makes the game pretty pointless if you can just have near unlimited invisibility and just appear places after firing 2 shotgun blasts into someones back. But I digress. I wont complain too much. I believe in "equal opportunities", including for those who are severely handicapped at playing the game or have another major deficiency. If they need this big of a high chair to be able to sit at my level, then alright. Sighs I was with ya on the first part... why'd you have to let me down? My 19" HDTV lets me see scouts fine, and my vision is actually pretty bad if I'm not wearing glasses (Think 480p compared to 720p... my eyesight is the first...) A lot of people like cloaks not because it makes playing a scout easier, but because it's simply fun. Dust doesn't exactly have the best available when it comes to infantry gameplay, shooting or otherwise, and for myself (and I'm sure quite a few others) the cloak isn't a balancing item, it's a way to add entertainment to the game while allowing for more options on a scout's part. Before the cloak, the scouts were viable on four maps, two of which were only the case if the battle was taking place in the city. Dust, being devoid of cover as it is in most environments, was a poor playing field for scouts running around with 300ehp, meaning most games, those who specialized in scouts had to pick another suit or be at a huge disadvantage. That's no longer the case with the cloaks, flanking is possible and ambushes are viable no matter the map as long as the person in question has the patience to take things slowly. Nova Knives are magic~ Inserts knife into nearest merc's spinal column And now, so are you! Bask in the magics!
LAVALLOIS Nash QcGOLD 148	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:00:00 - [10] - Quote Crimson ShieId wrote: Sighs I was with ya on the first part... why'd you have to let me down? My 19" HDTV lets me see scouts fine, and my vision is actually pretty bad if I'm not wearing glasses (Think 480p compared to 720p... my eyesight is the first...) A lot of people like cloaks not because it makes playing a scout easier, but because it's simply fun. Dust doesn't exactly have the best available when it comes to infantry gameplay, shooting or otherwise, and for myself (and I'm sure quite a few others) the cloak isn't a balancing item, it's a way to add entertainment to the game while allowing for more options on a scout's part. Before the cloak, the scouts were viable on four maps, two of which were only the case if the battle was taking place in the city. Dust, being devoid of cover as it is in most environments, was a poor playing field for scouts running around with 300ehp, meaning most games, those who specialized in scouts had to pick another suit or be at a huge disadvantage. That's no longer the case with the cloaks, flanking is possible and ambushes are viable no matter the map as long as the person in question has the patience to take things slowly. Well for me, I dont have that much trouble seeing them if I can predict what they will do next. Most of the not so great ones always do a predictable long arc to try and get behind me. My TV isnt great, so I have to rely on my crosshair turning orange. On some backgrounds, like pavement, they are very visible. Dont get me wrong though, I dont want them nerfed out of the game. The other day I was playing a Dom on that map with the underground supply depot, (we were camping it), and a scout snuck in and blew himself and us all up with remote mines. I wouldnt want to take that out of the game. When i die like that, I laugh a little on the inside. Now you got people who use scouts in CQC fights that have tons of armor and flick the cloak on and off. I just dont think that was its intended use. It should be a tradeoff. Having alot of one should prevent you from having alot of the other.

Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8657	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:01:00 - [11] - Quote Crimson ShieId wrote: Sighs I was with ya on the first part... why'd you have to let me down? My 19" HDTV lets me see scouts fine. [...] Yet another fallacy. CPM Game Join HvLP For Good Fights & Anime :) -HAND
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 136	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:23:00 - [12] - Quote Atiim wrote: Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Nine times out of ten, if the cloaked scout is in front of me I WILL SEE IT! That's a fallacy. How so? In my experience it is true. I'm not claiming to be cloak proof, I don't always beat them, but if they are in front of me I most always see them. I'll even stalk them if I am fast enough. There are times when I realize what I just saw was a cloaked merc, but just a bit too late. Those are the smart ones. Or I will blatantly not notice at all, and they get behind me and I hear their shotgun announce my death. But mostly they are just as obvious as any other suit. AKA - StarVenger
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 744	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:32:00 - [13] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Nine times out of ten, if the cloaked scout is in front of me I WILL SEE IT! This statement is flawed. Judge Rabadabalus calls it the "toupee fallacy" (google it). Also, fire-from-cloak should be fixed. It is a problem.
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:50:00 - [14] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: This statement is flawed. Judge Rabadabalus calls it the "toupee fallacy" (google it). That argument does not apply here. Toupees don't shimmer with blue light. Cloaked mercs shimmer with blue light. Nine times out of ten I will see that shimmery blue merc. AKA - StarVenger
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 745	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:52:00 - [15] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: This statement is flawed. Judge Rabadabalus calls it the "toupee fallacy" (google it). That argument does not apply here. Toupees don't shimmer with blue light. Cloaked mercs shimmer with blue light. Nine times out of ten I will see that shimmery blue merc. LOL
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9782	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:53:00 - [16] - Quote A cloaked user has the first mover advantage. Before the enemy knows what hit them, they already have 200+ damage dealt to them. That's extremely stupid. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 9782	Posted - 2014.05.17 21:55:00 - [17] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: This statement is flawed. Judge Rabadabalus calls it the "toupee fallacy" (google it). That argument does not apply here. Toupees don't shimmer with blue light. Cloaked mercs shimmer with blue light. Nine times out of ten I will see that shimmery blue merc. If you don't spot the cloak, then you can't know it was there. The blue shimmer has varying degrees of visibility depending on the map, and on some maps they can dance right infront of you and you won't notice I thing. I know, I do it all the time in my scout. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2014.05.17 22:01:00 - [18] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I know, I do it all the time in my scout. And.......you would be the one in ten that ganks me AKA - StarVenger
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2220	Posted - 2014.05.17 22:04:00 - [19] - Quote An uncloaked, well tanked scout isn't that much of a problem (as much as it steps on the toes of the assault suits). A lightly tanked scout suit that uses the cloak to get into a flanking position isn't a problem. The problem is that you can be both well tanked and invisible, decloaking away from cover and being able to survive the retaliation by the victim's teammates. A delay on being able to fire when decloaking would fix this, since you would no longer be able to drop cloak in a suicidal position and get away with it by OHKing anyone who would be a threat. You could still cause havoc by using the cloak to get close, stepping behind something and then decloaking. Your low scan profile would mean you still have the element of surprise, but you'd have to close that short distance and risk someone getting a mark 1 eyeball on you. The other thing I would do is make the cloak lose some charge when you decloak. I play a gallente scout now. It's cheesy as hell. With an advanced cloak I drop cloak, kill someone, recloak, kill someone, recloak, move to a sheltered spot and recharge the cloak and then keep going. Running out of cloak time is something that simply doesn't happen, and it's meant to. There's just no reason to use the proto version.
Tectonic Fusion 1667	Posted - 2014.05.17 22:51:00 - [20] - Quote Cavani1EE7 wrote: OliX PRZESMIEWCA wrote: First shoot when cloaked is a bug. That 1-2 bullets more make a difference... Everything else is fine. Yeah, especially when those 1-2 bullets come from a SG. I don't get why you think 2 come from a SG. The first one you can see my shimmer, and the second one is uncloaked...

danie braz Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 28	Posted - 2014.05.17 23:57:00 - [21] - Quote Cavani1EE7 wrote: Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: ...or he's tanked. That's the problem. Precision enhancers. Ill see you first.
Crimson ShieId Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 450	Posted - 2014.05.18 02:22:00 - [22] - Quote Atiim wrote: Crimson ShieId wrote: Sighs I was with ya on the first part... why'd you have to let me down? My 19" HDTV lets me see scouts fine. [...] Yet another fallacy. How is it a fallacy? I made a statement about myself, not everyone else. The results I have on a 19" HDTV are usually good, in spite of my eyesight being crap. Nova Knives are magic~ Inserts knife into nearest merc's spinal column And now, so are you! Bask in the magics!
OliX PRZESMIEWCA Bezimienni... 96	Posted - 2014.05.18 02:47:00 - [23] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Cavani1EE7 wrote: OliX PRZESMIEWCA wrote: First shoot when cloaked is a bug. That 1-2 bullets more make a difference... Everything else is fine. Yeah, especially when those 1-2 bullets come from a SG. I don't get why you think 2 come from a SG. The first one you can see my shimmer, and the second one is uncloaked... First one goes with cloak, second one goes together with decloak or right just after it. Usually when they left with less than 50hp I blame this "decloaking" bug or my s hit ty low life templar suit. Thing is if I had that 1sec more, the glory should be mine. One SG shoot take same time as few bullets from any rifle.
MINA Longstrike 769	Posted - 2014.05.18 04:41:00 - [24] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I know, I do it all the time in my scout. And.......you would be the one in ten that ganks me I don't think you understand what a logical fallacy like the toupee fallacy is. http://www.logicalfallacies.info/ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy The toupee fallacy in this case postulates that you've never 'seen' a cloaked scout that you didn't see the blue shimmer on. This is fallacious because there are plenty of scouts that given fairly regular circumstances you wouldn't have seen at all, therefore your statement of "I've never seen a scout that I didn't see" is wrong. It has been demonstrated that scouts in numerous situations literally have no shimmer. Sadly with no actual model changes or the like scouts will end up retaining the first mover advantage until dust is dead. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 142	Posted - 2014.05.18 04:45:00 - [25] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I don't think you understand what a logical fallacy like the toupee fallacy is.. That would be a fallacy. AKA - StarVenger
MINA Longstrike 769	Posted - 2014.05.18 04:49:00 - [26] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I don't think you understand what a logical fallacy like the toupee fallacy is.. That would be a fallacy. No, that's a mildly condescending statement based on what I've observed in this thread. If you can point out the error in my reasoning I'd be happy to discuss it further. Or you could try to address my arguments rather than merely responding to tone. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
m twiggz Pradox One Proficiency V. 624	Posted - 2014.05.18 05:03:00 - [27] - Quote You posting a thread about how cloaks aren't OP will just make more people post about how OP cloaks are. You must be new around here. Logic and the Dust community don't mix very well.
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 143	Posted - 2014.05.18 08:50:00 - [28] - Quote @MINA Longstrike Um...humor in irony? Next time I will append my humor with a smiley so as to blunt any perceived condescension. Yet perhaps my unintended tone of condescension, which you have taken affront to, was subliminally motivated from what I myself may have perceived from your post as condescending in tone towards me. (Hmm..more irony). I'm an intelligent guy. "Toupee fallacy" in the context of this thread is pretty self explanatory even if I hadn't know already what it meant. To assume I didn't comprehend this simple concept based on anecdotal evidence just might come across to me as insulting. And then you may have compounded this slight by launching into a lesson on the subject, complete with links, as one might reprimand a student for shirking his studies. Now you have assumed upon yourself a position as my intellectual superior, something sure to get my ire up. But whats worse, you seemingly presume my Google-fu is weak! Had you prefaced your lesson with the phrase "Just to be sure...", I'm certain no offense would have been taken, subliminally or otherwise. As to the "error in your reasoning" (Your words, not mine. I don't want to insult) if you must have it; MINA Longstrike wrote: The toupee fallacy in this case postulates that you've never 'seen' a cloaked scout that you didn't see the blue shimmer on. I'm not sure it actually does the way you have it here. But it matters not as I did state "nine out of ten" which allows for those cloaked mercs with their blue shimmer in effect that I did not see. Quote: therefore your statement of "I've never seen a scout that I didn't see" is wrong. This is where this "Toupee fallacy" definitely applies. As it pertains to me, however, this statement would only be true if I had, in fact, made that claim. I haven't. What I am claiming, clearly stated now that I am pressed, is that I see nine out of ten shimmering blue cloaked scouts if they are within my line of sight. Granted, this may be a bold statement but this is merely an online forum and I'm trying to stress a point. However, if you must take me to task on this I'm willing to amend my claim. I'll say eight out of ten. And to be perfectly clear while clarity is an issue, before any further confusion ensues; I'm not claiming the title "slayer of cloaks." I am only saying I am a "seer of cloaks" and wonder why, if everybody else is as well, do so many believe cloaks overpowered. To this I've received some compelling arguments. Quote: ~~It has been demonstrated that scouts in numerous situations literally have no shimmer.~~ Lies! LIES! Why must you fill people's heads with such *LIES!!!! AKA* - StarVenger
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5555	Posted - 2014.05.18 10:40:00 - [29] - Quote The fallacy argument is that if you don't see someone, you won't KNOW you didn't see them. It relies very heavily on the phenomenon you didn't see being passive. FPS players aren't passive. If you fail to see a cloaked player, you will very promptly be shot by that player. I can comfortably argue that 9 times out of 10, when a cloaked player starts shooting and was in front of me, I saw them before the decloaking animation began. I can also point out that for those 10 times, there were MORE than 10 times where I saw a cloaked player and they were killed - either by me or another player - before they had a chance to open fire. There were also a handful of times I saw a cloaked player, but didn't have anything I could do before I lost sight of them due to factors OTHER than cloak (distance/terrain). Fallacy doesn't apply to my above statement, AND that proves the same thing people were claiming which can be pointed out as a fallacy. I'm willing to admit there are bugs which can occasionally prevent a moving player from being as visible as they should be at certain ranges, but for the most part, cloaked players ARE visible.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2014.05.18 10:45:00 - [30] - Quote Yes he needed the cloak. The only scout that doesn't need the cloak is Gallente, and it still helps because you don't know where the other 15 people on the enemy team are besides the one you're sneaking around. And if you're having trouble with brick tanked scouts, bring my Gal Logi in your squad. I'll light em right up. GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê] GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++



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