Working on it; last I checked he was brushing up details. CPM will like get a bat at it first but I will encourage him to press it forward. System looks powerful and needed for New Eden's newest infantry.

As long as I'm not restricted from using any weapon I like on any suit. If I want to use a nova knife fitted on a commando, then by god I will have that option. Don't take it away from me.

But still, that progression system didn't look any better than what we have in Dust right now. ISIS in Eve explained it better.

Once a weapon is unlocked its free to be used on any suit according to Z. How the weapons are unlocked will be different.

In the example jpg in the OP, the mass driver is unlocked after skilling a little into the logistics role. But the SP and time requirement to do so will be less than is now and there aren't 5 levels of Mass Driver skill to get to proto as standard and advanced variants are being ditched.

The real sp sink will be specialisation and racial specialisation of that logi role.

DIsagree. In the long run it's doing that newest infantry a disservice by reducing their agency in crafting their own role.

I'm going to try and arrange a way for you guys to speak to CCP Z about Progression over the next week or two. I only just arrived in Shanghai today so give me a little while to set something up.

I understand peoples concerns but I've felt for the longest time that Dust's skill tree is as it is to satisfy Eve players rather than become its own thing.

While aesthetically and lore wise the game should be very close to New Eden, I'm concerned that being too much a slave as to what has come before can handicap and stifle the games identity. Dust/Legion should be its own thing in the New Eden Universe. Simply doing something one way because Eve does it like that is the wrong way to think about it.

We must be prepared to examine other ways to do things if the result is better progression for new players while allowing vets to do it their way.

I understand peoples concerns but I've felt for the longest time that Dust's skill tree is as it is to satisfy Eve players rather than become its own thing.

While aesthetically and lore wise the game should be very close to New Eden, I'm concerned that being too much a slave as to what has come before can handicap and stifle the games identity. Dust/Legion should be its own thing in the New Eden Universe. Simply doing something one way because Eve does it like that is the wrong way to think about it.

We must be prepared to examine other ways to do things if the result is better progression for new players while allowing vets to do it their way.

There are several things EVE does very good, which are also perfectly translatable to Legion. Skill system is one of them. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to use them, rather than invent something "new" (as if roles, and skills which simply unlock gear qualify as something new). Also, retaining the same character-based core mechanics on both (or even all three) games which take place in New Eden does help in creating immersion, and in quicker adaptation from one game to another. People playing EVE, who wish to try Legion (or vice-versa) will have less trouble doing so if core mechanics stay as similar as possible.

But that's not all. CCP Z's presentation raised several other questions regarding the project's orientation and targeted audience. For instance, why on earth would anyone think that the ability to look at your lower-tier dropsuits in your closet is better than having actual use of all of them?

I'm going to try and arrange a way for you guys to speak to CCP Z about Progression over the next week or two. I only just arrived in Shanghai today so give me a little while to set something up.

Was thinking that there is a viable way to synthesize the two positions we're seeing expressed here: Training Templates.

A new merc, after appropriate quality NPE time, is given a choice from a selection of training templates, which are simple overlays of the raw skilltree that highlights the skills that form CCP Z's 'Role Trees'.

The Training templates could be hard, soft or merely informational:

• Hard Templates would constrain what you could train and in what order, effectively 'greying out' other skills.
• Soft Templates would give a "You are choosing a skill outside or you training template, do you wish to proceed?" warning to the merc but still leave them with full volition.
• Informational templates would do nothing at all but colour-highlight skills in the template.

That's it, really. We could add some quality-of-life features and conditionals, e.g a user-selection for template 'hardness(Hard, Soft, Infomational, None)', and also that new mercs would have to complete one 'Hard Template' before unlocking the ability to set a hardness of their choice.

Iterating further, we could give players the ability to write their own templates and export them, so for example a new recruit could be given the 'Corp Bootcamp' template, etc., or we could download 'Fox Gaden's first 2 million SP' template ;)

The skill tree doesn't need changing... Especially what needs changing is how you intrkoduce new players to the concept I.e. actually have a new player experience that teaches the concept.

Hopefully they'll give both a go during the beta... see which one works out better.

(Hopefully that'll be the DUST method...)

The most difficult balance in developing a skill system for Legion is finding the balance between making it easy for new players to figure out, while making it complex and flexible enough to keep veteran players interested.

Some of the criticism with CCP Z's plan comes from people thinking that it leans too far toward the new player, and that it will not be as fun for veteran players as a result.

While thinking about this I also thought about the certificate system in EVE, as well as what CCP did when they changed the UI for the skill system in DUST. If you know where to look, you can still open the old skill system in DUST which uses a list interface rather than a node interface. The key that I took from this was knowing where to look.

My proposal is that the skill system that is prominently displayed when you start the game would be CCP Z's Role based Item Progression system, and if you purchase your skills through that progression you will get a skill plan that works for the role you choose. The prerequisites for the skills in that interface would be set by the interface, rather than being the actual prerequisites for the skill.

Then there should be a second skill system interface designed for the veteran player which is much more free form. This second system should be buried a bit so that you have to discover it, or be told about it. This interface would include the same skills as CCP Z's interface (possible more skills), but they would be based on their actual prerequisites, rather than role based prerequisites.

So lets say you want to use the Tactical Assault Rifle:
- New Player Interface: You need to skill up through the Assault suit tree, get Assault Rifle, and then you can get the Tactical Assault Rifle skill.
- Veteran Player Interface: You simply go to the weapons tree, get the Assault Rifle skill, and then you can get the Tactical Assault Rifle skill.


Key premises:

1) You can't go wrong with the New Player Interface, but you can be more creative with the Veteran Player Interface. On the flip side, the Veteran Player Interface will give you the freedom to make mistakes, while the New Player Interface imposes restrictions that protect you from yourself.

2) The New Player Interface is the default which new players will find easily when they start the game. They will only discover the Veteran Player Interface if they are exploring the UI, or doing research. In either case they are taking actions which indicate that they are ready to discover greater complexity in the game.

Greetings CPM members:

I am the CEO of the second largest training Corporation in DUST 514, a cofounder of the Learning Coalition, and a sponsor of the Spanish Rookie help channel (Novatos Espa+¦ol).

I see CCP ZGÇÖs proposed Item Progression Tree as a vastly superior way to unlock items, but I believe that completely abandoning the 5 level skill system, specifically the 5 level skills that provide bonuses, is a huge mistake!

I have spent hours talking players who were completely new to the New Eden universe through how skills and fittings interact to allow them to build a suit that works for what they want to do. I completely agree with Dennie Fleetfoot that CCP ZGÇÖs proposed system will make getting started a lot easier for new players.

But I have also talked to those same players two or three weeks later and had them tell me that DUST 514 is so much better than CoD, Battlefield, or any other FPS they have played because of the depth and complexity of the character/fit customization.

The fitting optimisation skills are a mini game within the game. I remember how satisfied I felt when I realized that I could make my fit work for less than half the skill point cost by training Heavy Weapon Optimization to 4 rather than training Electronics to 5. I had solved the puzzle! That is depth through complexity. That is fun!

Other item optimization skills are important as well. It is one thing to have access to a weapon or a piece of equipment, but it is another thing to put the skill points into specialising in it. Skills that reduce PG or CPU usage; reduce sway, kick, or dispersion; or otherwise make the item easier to fit or more effective, help to make you feel like a specialist. They arenGÇÖt mandatary, but they give you a slight advantage with that item over someone who does not specialise.

If we are going to use the Item Progression tree to unlock items, it should also unlock 5 level bonus skills associated with each of those items. If Item Progression is the tree, the Item Optimization skills should be the leaves on that tree.

Personal Enhancement skills are important too:

I want my character to be more than the sum of his modules!

I want to be Tonny Stark, not one of those dam suits! I want to train skills that make my character better regardless of what fit he wares. I want to train Electronics and Engineering so I can make unconventional fits that no one else has considered. That is sand in the sandbox. DonGÇÖt take my sand away! When no one in the squad has hacking mods equipped, I want to be the guy who can hack a little faster because I put skill points into a skill that others considered merely a quality of life skill. Or I might want to be the Logi who can see other medium frame suits on my radar closing in on me when I am hacking, because I put some points into Scan Precession. These are skills that give the character individuality beyond what suit he wares. This helps with immersion, and with forming an emotional tie to your character. He is not a robot! Under the armour he is flesh and blood.

If Item Progression is the tree, then Personal Enhancement skills would be the roots that make the entire tree stronger.

The 5 Level Skill system is what has allowed EVE Online to work for 11 years. The 5 Level Skill system is one of the best things that DUST 514 has going for it. It is a large part of why DUST 514 is better than Call of Duty or Battlefield. It is a diminishing returns system which allows new players to get more than half of the potential benefit by skilling to level 3, for a very reasonable expenditure of skill points, while also letting veteran players go back and gain small advantages over their opponents by spending large amounts of skill points to nudge a skill up to level 5.

Abandoning this fundamental aspect of the game just because skills donGÇÖt work well for unlocking equipment is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. The Item Progression tree is a good replacement for skills such as Dropsuit Command which served only to unlock items, but getting rid of the bonus skills at the same time is like an American remake of a French movie, it completely misses the point!

Fox Gaden / Crash Gaden / Renier Gaden

I understand peoples concerns but I've felt for the longest time that Dust's skill tree is as it is to satisfy Eve players rather than become its own thing.

While aesthetically and lore wise the game should be very close to New Eden, I'm concerned that being too much a slave as to what has come before can handicap and stifle the games identity. Dust/Legion should be its own thing in the New Eden Universe. Simply doing something one way because Eve does it like that is the wrong way to think about it.

The choice here is really very simple. And people are over analysing it.

Some are saying its the responsibility of the NPE to teach players the about the tree. Fair enough. However creating an NPE that teaches the tree AND teach them the basics of gameplay is just a waste of Dev resources if the tree itself can be configured in a way to teach the new player as they progress. The saved Dev time can then go to creating a PvE system that introduces basic combat skills. (Which is already the case with the salvage and rogue drones concept that JC introduced at the key note).

The main problem with just slavishly copying the Eve system however is that it was designed for a subscriber based game style. Speed is not the essence in Eve when it comes to skill training. Which is why its a passive based system that allows you explore a vast ammount of things that one can do in that game with no way that you can hugely influence the speed of skill gain.

This is not the case for a twitch based, free to play FPS. The more you play, the faster you advance. And the current skill tree is not fit for that purpose.

Why?

I hate to break this to you, but the reason that Dust hasn't gained the player base that was hoped isn't just because a lot of feature haven't made it or lack of quality in the game, it's because it's so bloody hard to understand for those that are used to the Halo's and COD's of the FPS world. We keep the tree 'as is' and the player base will never grow beyond 5K. Ever.

Making the progression system more accessible isn't 'dumbing down' if it means the potential size of the player base increases 5 fold. Increased player base leads to greater revenue for CCP which leads to continued support for the game and expansion of it. Yes, it's vulgar to mention the money but without it the game dies.

Continuing to use a subscription based model in a FTP game is financial suicide for CCP. Changes will have to be made if the game is to compete with The World of Tanks and Planetside 2's of the PC based FTP genre.

We need a system more welcoming, more forgiving and less prone to wasting SP like the current system is. None of the other FTP games use a 5 level system quite like ours, and they have A: larger player bases than Dust and B: Make more money.

We have to be prepared to come out of our comfort zone. The game is finally going to have all the features we were promised 5 years ago. But all that work is really going to be for nothing if we can't more people into the game. The system that Z has designed will do that for us. It needs a few tweaks, I agree with that. But sticking to what we have now simply because its 'Eve' is just not an option anymore.

It's limiting player growth and that's the last thing we need right now.

To be honest, CCP Z need to come to the forums and talk with us soon. Its not fun to communicate with a wall.

The choice here is really very simple. And people are over analysing it.

Some are saying its the responsibility of the NPE to teach players the about the tree. Fair enough. However creating an NPE that teaches the tree AND teach them the basics of gameplay is just a waste of Dev resources if the tree itself can be configured in a way to teach the new player as they progress. The saved Dev time can then go to creating a PvE system that introduces basic combat skills. (Which is already the case with the salvage and rogue drones concept that JC introduced at the key note).

The main problem with just slavishly copying the Eve system however is that it was designed for a subscriber based game style. Speed is not the essence in Eve when it comes to skill training. Which is why its a passive based system that allows you explore a vast ammount of things that one can do in that game with no way that you can hugely influence the speed of skill gain.

This is not the case for a twitch based, free to play FPS. The more you play, the faster you advance. And the current skill tree is not fit for that purpose.

Why?

I hate to break this to you, but the reason that Dust hasn't gained the player base that was hoped isn't just because a lot of feature haven't made it or lack of quality in the game, it's because it's so bloody hard to understand for those that are used to the Halo's and COD's of the FPS world. We keep the tree 'as is' and the player base will never grow beyond 5K. Ever.

Making the progression system more accessible isn't 'dumbing down' if it means the potential size of the player base increases 5 fold. Increased player base leads to greater revenue for CCP which leads to continued support for the game and expansion of it. Yes, it's vulgar to mention the money but without it the game dies.

Continuing to use a subscription based model in a FTP game is financial suicide for CCP. Changes will have to be made if the game is to compete with The World of Tanks and Planetside 2's of the PC based FTP genre.

We need a system more welcoming, more forgiving and less prone to wasting SP like the current system is. None of the other FTP games use a 5 level system quite like ours, and they have A: larger player bases than Dust and B: Make more money.

We have to be prepared to come out of our comfort zone. The game is finally going to have all the features we were promised 5 years ago. But all that work is really going to be for nothing if we can't more people into the game. The system that Z has designed will do that for us. It needs a few tweaks, I agree with that. But sticking to what we have now simply because its 'Eve' is just not an option anymore.

It's limiting player growth and that's the last thing we need right now.

Yeah waiting for 2 days is very hard! :D

He will probably come when he has time and is not sick. So let's be patient a bit, this forum section came up just a few days ago.

Yes, he's off sick at the moment. I've just fired him an email with some forum thread links and he does want to chat. He's a friendly dude. Just make sure to keep him well fed and groomed.

Yes, he's off sick at the moment. I've just fired him an email with some forum thread links and he does want to chat. He's a friendly dude. Just make sure to keep him well fed and groomed.

I really like the basis for Z's progression in Legion but there's a lot of players who'd like more info about the unlocking of weapon types from the roles rather than weapon types.

http://i.imgur.com/DbEyAdu.jpg

Also are the two shades of grey box denoting a skill that is common to all role types or specific to the logistic role tree given in the example?

I await his Dev blog with interest.

I hate to break this to you, but the reason that Dust hasn't gained the player base that was hoped isn't just because a lot of feature haven't made it or lack of quality in the game, it's because it's so bloody hard to understand for those that are used to the Halo's and COD's of the FPS world. We keep the tree 'as is' and the player base will never grow beyond 5K. Ever.

We need a system more welcoming, more forgiving and less prone to wasting SP like the current system is. None of the other FTP games use a 5 level system quite like ours, and they have A: larger player bases than Dust and B: Make more money.

Continuing to use a subscription based model in a FTP game is financial suicide for CCP. Changes will have to be made if the game is to compete with The World of Tanks and Planetside 2's of the PC based FTP genre.

On your last point, Kevall, I especially agree. The Dust system of progression may have been an improvement in Uprising compared to previous builds but it's still lacking in understanding.

Again, the ISIS system in Eve helped players better understand what each ship is best used for and what skills best support the roles that each ship is suited for. That same principle should apply to Legion. Maybe not with the exact same tree setup as seen in ISIS due to the problem you pointed out earlier, but it's a step in the right direction in helping new players understand the progression without needing any tutorial to explain it to them.

To be honest, CCP Z need to come to the forums and talk with us soon. Its not fun to communicate with a wall.

So... Your goal is to make the skill tree more accessible. I definately agree with this! But you probably should not waste time on revamping it from scratch, since that will take a lot of manhours, and we do not want the game to be delayed!!! I will describe how to save development time in the following section.

There is a way to make both the hardcore theorycrafters from EVE and the instant gratification crowd pleased. And this concept already exists in the game (in a crude sense):
The graphical skill tree/Skill tree list.

In Diablo 3, there is a game option to enable advanced customization (check box in the game menu, which is off by default on new accounts), I.E. remove the conditional dependence between certain modules and slots. This kind of supportive game option could be great support wheels for the new players, while at the same time offering the option to remove the support wheels and offer a interesting and complex skill tree for the hardcore theorycrafters.

So how would this be implemented?

1. Add an option in the game menu related to advanced skill progession OFF/ON (OFF by default for new players).
2. The option should enable/disable a skill tree overlay UI that makes it more accessible and add 'conditioned' paths through the skill tree.
3. If the option of advanced skill progession is enabled, there should be no dependence between dropsuits, modules and weapons, other than what we have today.

I do not support your wild card idea, it gives me and many others the picture that you did not design the system well enough from the beginning.

Harden The F*ck Up and back to the drawing board CCP Z! ;) Like you say yourself, killing (your idea in this case) is only a means of communication.

Yes, he's off sick at the moment. I've just fired him an email with some forum thread links and he does want to chat. He's a friendly dude. Just make sure to keep him well fed and groomed.

Z is hoping to get on the forums by the end of this week.

Gawd help him. Lol