DUST Search - Can we get more infomation from CCP Z about the skill progression

George Moros wrote:

Kevall Longstride wrote:

I understand peoples concerns but I've felt for the longest time that Dust's skill tree is as it is to satisfy Eve players rather than become its own thing.

While aesthetically and lore wise the game should be very close to New Eden, I'm concerned that being too much a slave as to what has come before can handicap and stifle the games identity. Dust/Legion should be its own thing in the New Eden Universe. Simply doing something one way because Eve does it like that is the wrong way to think about it.

We must be prepared to examine other ways to do things if the result is better progression for new players while allowing vets to do it their way.

There are several things EVE does very good, which are also perfectly translatable to Legion. Skill system is one of them. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to use them, rather than invent something "new" (as if roles, and skills which simply unlock gear qualify as something new). Also, retaining the same character-based core mechanics on both (or even all three) games which take place in New Eden does help in creating immersion, and in quicker adaptation from one game to another. People playing EVE, who wish to try Legion (or vice-versa) will have less trouble doing so if core mechanics stay as similar as possible.

But that's not all. CCP Z's presentation raised several other questions regarding the project's orientation and targeted audience. For instance, why on earth would anyone think that the ability to look at your lower-tier dropsuits in your closet is better than having actual use of all of them?

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Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1271	Posted - 2014.05.11 17:47:00 - [1] - Quote I really like the basis for Z's progression in Legion but there's a lot of players who'd like more info about the unlocking of weapon types from the roles rather than weapon types. http://i.imgur.com/DbEyAdu.jpg Also are the two shades of grey box denoting a skill that is common to all role types or specific to the logistic role tree given in the example? I await his Dev blog with interest. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2078	Posted - 2014.05.11 18:47:00 - [2] - Quote Likewise awaiting more information on this - it's a huge part of the player experience and will have a profound effect on the freedom/constraints a player encounters in skilling up and creating a role for themselves. I'm not as enthusiastic as Kevall, i'm really feeling the CODification/mainstreaming of DUST with CCP Z's proposed changes. With a responsibly and lovingly crafted NPE/tutorial, we are free to institute almost any type of skill/role system we can imagine. Players will get up to speed quickly if they're presented with the right information in the right context. It is important with Legion to ensure that all aspects of the game are esthetically embedded in New Eden. These are game design decisions and it is a mistake, imo, to allow them to be driven by marketing. Marketing certainly didn't do any favours for DUST 514. Others may disagree, but for this nine year vet of EVE and two year vet of DUST, CCP Z's proposal is much more closely related to unlocks from generic mass market shooters than the fitting system i know from EVE or DUST. Looking at CCP Z's Logistic tree i'm feeling a lot more constrained. I'm sure that others will feel this way too: when choice and free agency is removed from players it negatively impacts their gaming experience. If that constraint in agency is tied to a monetization system, then the whole thing comes off as cheezy and cynical. This project to bring an FPS to New Eden certainly doesn't need and perhaps cannot withstand much more of that. PSN: RationalSpark
Blooticus DUST University Ivy League 40	Posted - 2014.05.11 18:58:00 - [3] - Quote I hope they come up with some info soon. Knowledge of the skill tree will help them decide how our Dust SP will transfer. If they can come up with a direct transfer of SP then they might could still make a few bucks on boosters in Dust.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1272	Posted - 2014.05.11 19:12:00 - [4] - Quote I understand peoples concerns but I've felt for the longest time that Dust's skill tree is as it is to satisfy Eve players rather than become its own thing. While aesthetically and lore wise the game should be very close to New Eden, I'm concerned that being too much a slave as to what has come before can handicap and stifle the games identity. Dust/Legion should be its own thing in the New Eden Universe. Simply doing something one way because Eve does it like that is the wrong way to think about it. We must be prepared to examine other ways to do things if the result is better progression for new players while allowing vets to do it their way. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2078	Posted - 2014.05.11 19:34:00 - [5] - Quote Just finished watching Shad's recording of the roundtable where CCP Z speaks about the inaccessibility of the current system to new players, and acknowledges that senior/knowledgeable players will regrettably have to take a hit in the freedom/complexity of what they can do in game. This is the court of CCP Legion hanging the skill/fitting system for the NPE's crimes. The real victim ends up being the higher-level gameplay. It's a Faustian bargain, imo. The current skill/fitting system has not been given a chance because there was never a proper NPE/hands-on walkthrough to get players up to speed. CCP's order of operations here is backwards: first you educate, then you modify. Is it worth throwing away a meaningful piece of advanced gameplay for more generic low-investment accessibility? As a footnote, the idea of a 'wildcard' option for a particular 'Role Tree' sounds arbitrary and gamey, it comes out of the need to try and wedge meaningful choice back into CCP Z's hand-holdy system. Worse yet it's immersion-breaking. What's the answer? I don't know, but here is a design principle: Create a skill system for the Mercenary Soldiers in-game, not for the players out of game. The new system has generic mainstreaming for the masses written all over it. PSN: RationalSpark
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1272	Posted - 2014.05.11 19:46:00 - [6] - Quote And what's wrong with streamlining for the masses? We want the masses to come here. Putting up barriers to them is not a way to grow the playerbase, something that CCP are painfully aware of with Eve subscriber numbers plateauing. More players come to the game equals more targets to shoot at. And streamlining in no way means dumbing down. People shouldn't confuse easier accessibility with simplification or making it easier. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14881	Posted - 2014.05.11 19:48:00 - [7] - Quote Working on it; last I checked he was brushing up details. CPM will like get a bat at it first but I will encourage him to press it forward. System looks powerful and needed for New Eden's newest infantry. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2078	Posted - 2014.05.11 19:54:00 - [8] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Working on it; last I checked he was brushing up details. CPM will like get a bat at it first but I will encourage him to press it forward. System looks powerful and needed for New Eden's newest infantry. DIsagree. In the long run it's doing that newest infantry a disservice by reducing their agency in crafting their own role. PSN: RationalSpark
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8498	Posted - 2014.05.11 19:56:00 - [9] - Quote As long as I'm not restricted from using any weapon I like on any suit. If I want to use a nova knife fitted on a commando, then by god I will have that option. Don't take it away from me. But still, that progression system didn't look any better than what we have in Dust right now. ISIS in Eve explained it better. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1272	Posted - 2014.05.11 20:05:00 - [10] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: As long as I'm not restricted from using any weapon I like on any suit. If I want to use a nova knife fitted on a commando, then by god I will have that option. Don't take it away from me. But still, that progression system didn't look any better than what we have in Dust right now. ISIS in Eve explained it better. Once a weapon is unlocked its free to be used on any suit according to Z. How the weapons are unlocked will be different. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University

Gaelon Thrace Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 455	Posted - 2014.05.11 20:21:00 - [11] - Quote They need to take what they presented and turn it into certificates. They could then embed the certificates into an ISIS system for dropsuits.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1272	Posted - 2014.05.11 20:23:00 - [12] - Quote Certificates are the reason they designed Isis. Certificates don't really tell you much in Eve. So they got rid. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 480	Posted - 2014.05.11 20:25:00 - [13] - Quote The desired effect will look different from the outcomes, because we're still going to customize the roles we want, and it will just cost a lot of SP to multi role spec into the FotM. From the new player perspective, they're going to be that much farther behind in the SP grind. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8501	Posted - 2014.05.11 21:06:00 - [14] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: As long as I'm not restricted from using any weapon I like on any suit. If I want to use a nova knife fitted on a commando, then by god I will have that option. Don't take it away from me. But still, that progression system didn't look any better than what we have in Dust right now. ISIS in Eve explained it better. Once a weapon is unlocked its free to be used on any suit according to Z. How the weapons are unlocked will be different. In the example jpg in the OP, the mass driver is unlocked after skilling a little into the logistics role. But the SP and time requirement to do so will be less than is now and there aren't 5 levels of Mass Driver skill to get to proto as standard and advanced variants are being ditched. The real sp sink will be specialisation and racial specialisation of that logi role. Ah, ok. I just want to make sure. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1808	Posted - 2014.05.12 01:22:00 - [15] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Working on it; last I checked he was brushing up details. CPM will like get a bat at it first but I will encourage him to press it forward. System looks powerful and needed for New Eden's newest infantry. DIsagree. In the long run it's doing that newest infantry a disservice by reducing their agency in crafting their own role. You can still mix and match. A Logistics can still use any other Light weapon the idea is just to have a guide for new players. "If you are a Logistics, you unlock these. That means you should use something like this." It lets people look at each role and understand what the role is meant to do. It doesn't restrict anything across roles aside from Heavy weapons and the like. People that want to be more effective will always delve into a skill tree and planning tool like EVEmon or ask on the forums. People that wouldn't do that at least have some kind of guide on what they could do. To Dennie: The colors have me curious too. If the ones that had offshoots were the same color it wouldn't so hard to figure out but the white-light gray-dark gray has me perplexed. Looking at it more closely, I think the dark gray is something that all suits will have. The Assault will unlock weapons/modules and give an upgrade bonus (dark gray) same goes for any role. The light gray is probably a choice in what type of job you want to do in that role. So Logistics has Demolition or Squad Support while Assault would probably have Defense and Damage. The interesting thing here is the people will likely have a lot more things they can do even if it is only half decently. If you have to go down Logistics to get Remote Explosives for your Scout, you are going to be able to at least use a Logistics suit as well as your Scout. The problem is "how much of a sink is this going to be?" Right now, you only 50k or so SP to get Remote Explosives. If you have to go down the Logistics role to get it in Legion that surely has to cost more. Note: If a CPM or dev states that I am wrong about a larger sink, you have to say the line. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 455	Posted - 2014.05.12 01:58:00 - [16] - Quote ISIS system can educate people into the habilities and requirements of each role. Make skills meaningful instead of the 1-3-5 Basic-Advanced-Prototype crap. Every skill level should count for something. What is the fear of loosing the damn suit? The economic needs of new players is one of the major social glues that forms EVE online! Entire groups of players and alliances dedicated to train/fund them, to form social bonds, to make FRIENDS that outgrow the game, all this connected by the necessity of the younglings due to economic restrictions. People that form bonds ingame stick around, and if you give too many options that make solo play independent from the universe, it may be a game, but not a New Eden one. Even in high-sec a pimped plex player can be ganked during his solo mission, and that is good! Why should a Duster have no consequence for their actions, since ony part of their equip is destructible? And a Quafe suit is only special because of it-¦s scarcity. I don-¦t think a Hobo Hotel on the field should be more important than the meaning of the actions and consequences in it. There-¦s plenty of monetization that doesn-¦t involve dumbing down things. Like the 13b Caracal Sometimes it appears that Dust and EVE are brothers going different ways having New Eden as a mother and using it as an excuse of relationship. If CCP wants to do a commercial fps, fine, but don-¦t pretend it-¦s a new eden game.

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4478	Posted - 2014.05.12 06:06:00 - [17] - Quote I'm going to try and arrange a way for you guys to speak to CCP Z about Progression over the next week or two. I only just arrived in Shanghai today so give me a little while to set something up. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 750	Posted - 2014.05.12 07:34:00 - [18] - Quote Thanks. Dust/Eve transfers
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1273	Posted - 2014.05.12 09:23:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I'm going to try and arrange a way for you guys to speak to CCP Z about Progression over the next week or two. I only just arrived in Shanghai today so give me a little while to set something up. Cheers for that. o7 Lot of folks wanting to give feedback on this.. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 323	Posted - 2014.05.12 09:34:00 - [20] - Quote I like the skill tree how it currently is, and honestly if it were to receive dramatic changes, you won't see my happy ass in LEGION. Official Unofficial D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N team mascot.

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2828	Posted - 2014.05.12 09:57:00 - [21] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: I understand peoples concerns but I've felt for the longest time that Dust's skill tree is as it is to satisfy Eve players rather than become its own thing. While aesthetically and lore wise the game should be very close to New Eden, I'm concerned that being too much a slave as to what has come before can handicap and stifle the games identity. Dust/Legion should be its own thing in the New Eden Universe. Simply doing something one way because Eve does it like that is the wrong way to think about it. We must be prepared to examine other ways to do things if the result is better progression for new players while allowing vets to do it their way. Don't get us wrong there are certain things about we like, but let me give you an example, in fact an anecdote from when I began playing many moons ago. Like most people I started by playing public matches in a starter fit. I knew customization existed but was enjoying the killing people part too much to pay much attention. That was until I saw my first Mass Driver, a matte white-clad merc burst from cover and peppered my team with a volley of explosions, unfathomable panic insued and a few seconds later I was left Staring at the death screen. I had to have it, so I went to the Skill Trees, looked it up and skilled, since that day I have never looked back on my decision to do so. Now imagine what would have happened if Z''s system was in place, that because I had been tutored I was already halfway up the heavy suit tree. How do I get to the Mass Driver? I have to go all the way down to the Demo/Logistics branch and unlock it there, which if objective based goals are required to progress at certain points, I must now play in a suit I don't want, using weaponry I don't like, with a role that doesn't suit me. I'm not going to enjoy doing that am I? Instead of unlocking weapons,equipment and modules as part of a single progression tree, change them to bonuses. So for example the Demolitions Logistics gets a +20% to explosives blast radius and +2 Maximum Ammo Capacity bonus for Remote Explosives. This applies to the rest of the suits beyond that point in the tree. This does numerous things: 1) The Demolitions Logi knows that to get the most from the suit, he SHOULD equip a weapon like the Mass Driver or Plasma Canno 2) All players are permitted to fit whatever weapons they feel like. 3) Since the skills stack, roles synergise with certain equipment instead of just being restricted 4) The player becomes more attached to their suits/fittings because the bonuses apply directly to their role, when they see a sentinel with an MD they won't be annoyed because that person has maxed out more skill trees than them, they will be smug because they know that the MD works perfectly with the suit they are wearing and no-one will tell them otherwise. For example, let's say I want to play a Vanguard Assault, so I specced into a Minmatar Spec Ops Assault, going through the tree I have earn't the following bonuses. +20% Efficiency to Shield Recharges +25% Efficiency to Shield Regulators +10% ROF bonus to Projectile Weaponry +70% Magazine capacity for Projectile Light Weaponry - 75% Fitting Cost for Quantum Sprint Equipment This creates a very specific suit that works best with a very particular play style, MY play style On the other hand I might decide to go down the route of Amarrian Bastion Logistics in an AV role and earn these bonuses +20% Blast Radius for Explosive Weaponry +200% Max Ammo Capacity bonus for Launcher Weaponry (Plasma Cannon, Swarm Launcher, Amarr Light AV, Minmatar Light AV) -50% Nanite Cost for Explosives +3 Remote Explosives Capacity +30% Projectile Velocity Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
George Moros Balkan Express Squad 394	Posted - 2014.05.12 10:35:00 - [22] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: I understand peoples concerns but I've felt for the longest time that Dust's skill tree is as it is to satisfy Eve players rather than become its own thing. While aesthetically and lore wise the game should be very close to New Eden, I'm concerned that being too much a slave as to what has come before can handicap and stifle the games identity. Dust/Legion should be its own thing in the New Eden Universe. Simply doing something one way because Eve does it like that is the wrong way to think about it. We must be prepared to examine other ways to do things if the result is better progression for new players while allowing vets to do it their way. There are several things EVE does very good, which are also perfectly translatable to Legion. Skill system is one of them. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to use them, rather than invent something "new" (as if roles, and skills which simply unlock gear qualify as something new). Also, retaining the same character-based core mechanics on both (or even all three) games which take place in New Eden does help in creating immersion, and in quicker adaptation from one game to another. People playing EVE, who wish to try Legion (or vice-versa) will have less trouble doing so if core mechanics stay as similar as possible. But that's not all. CCP Z's presentation raised several other questions regarding the project's orientation and targeted audience. For instance, why on earth would anyone think that the ability to look at your lower-tier dropsuits in your closet is better than having actual use of all of them? Pulvereus ergo queritor.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 456	Posted - 2014.05.12 13:42:00 - [23] - Quote George Moros wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: I understand peoples concerns but I've felt for the longest time that Dust's skill tree is as it is to satisfy Eve players rather than become its own thing. While aesthetically and lore wise the game should be very close to New Eden, I'm concerned that being too much a slave as to what has come before can handicap and stifle the games identity. Dust/Legion should be its own thing in the New Eden Universe. Simply doing something one way because Eve does it like that is the wrong way to think about it. We must be prepared to examine other ways to do things if the result is better progression for new players while allowing vets to do it their way. There are several things EVE does very good, which are also perfectly translatable to Legion. Skill system is one of them. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to use them, rather than invent something "new" (as if roles, and skills which simply unlock gear qualify as something new). Also, retaining the same character-based core mechanics on both (or even all three) games which take place in New Eden does help in creating immersion, and in quicker adaptation from one game to another. People playing EVE, who wish to try Legion (or vice-versa) will have less trouble doing so if core mechanics stay as similar as possible. But that's not all. CCP Z's presentation raised several other questions regarding the project's orientation and targeted audience. For instance, why on earth would anyone think that the ability to look at your lower-tier dropsuits in your closet is better than having actual use of all of them? I have a 111 milion SP char in EVE Online than can fly whatever the hell she wants, including supercarriers and a titan, but do i fly those? NO. It-¦s not a money issue it-¦s simply because i love playing with my kickass dramiel frigate or my blaster falcon cruiser. I CAN fly bigger things, this doesn-¦t mean i WANT to fly them. (CTA ready however) I LOVE my old stuff and the Progression presentation got me chills when i saw that CCP Z-¦s vision is of a generic sci-fi game dumbed down (not accessible dumbed down, two different things) for the masses triying to emulate WoW or Diablo III character/item systems and with this, whenever i hear "Market" will be implemented, i listen "Auction house". If you guys want to do a commercial viable game like farmville, candycrush, call of futuristic warfarefield 2048 or something, again, no problem, a company got to make their ISK. But please don-¦t put a label of New Eden on it, because it isn-¦t.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2087	Posted - 2014.05.12 14:14:00 - [24] - Quote Was thinking that there is a viable way to synthesize the two positions we're seeing expressed here: Training Templates. A new merc, after appropriate quality NPE time, is given a choice from a selection of training templates, which are simple overlays of the raw skilltree that highlights the skills that form CCP Z's 'Role Trees'. The Training templates could be hard, soft or merely informational: Hard Templates would constrain what you could train and in what order, effectively 'greying out' other skills. Soft Templates would give a "You are choosing a skill outside or you training template, do you wish to proceed?" warning to the merc but still leave them with full volition. Informational templates would do nothing at all but colour-highlight skills in the template. That's it, really. We could add some quality-of-life features and conditionals, e.g a user-selection for template 'hardness(Hard, Soft, Infomational, None)', and also that new mercs would have to complete one 'Hard Template' before unlocking the ability to set a hardness of their choice. Iterating further, we could give players the ability to write their own templates and export them, so for example a new recruit could be given the 'Corp Bootcamp' template, etc., or we could download 'Fox Gaden's first 2 million SP' template ;) PSN: RationalSpark
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 628	Posted - 2014.05.12 14:18:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I'm going to try and arrange a way for you guys to speak to CCP Z about Progression over the next week or two. I only just arrived in Shanghai today so give me a little while to set something up. Appreciate this Saberwing. Out of all of the stuff we have heard for Legion, the vast majority of it looks and sounds awesome! However this one particular bit does have a lot of us concerned so the ability to hear more / discuss the progression / suits / what ever to do with skills and progression - would be very helpful indeed!
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 457	Posted - 2014.05.12 14:19:00 - [26] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Was thinking that there is a viable way to synthesize the two positions we're seeing expressed here: Training Templates. A new merc, after appropriate quality NPE time, is given a choice from a selection of training templates, which are simple overlays of the raw skilltree that highlights the skills that form CCP Z's 'Role Trees'. The Training templates could be hard, soft or merely informational: Hard Templates would constrain what you could train and in what order, effectively 'greying out' other skills. Soft Templates would give a "You are choosing a skill outside or you training template, do you wish to proceed?" warning to the merc but still leave them with full volition. Informational templates would do nothing at all but colour-highlight skills in the template. That's it, really. We could add some quality-of-life features and conditionals, e.g a user-selection for template 'hardness(Hard, Soft, Infomational, None)', and also that new mercs would have to complete one 'Hard Template' before unlocking the ability to set a hardness of their choice. Iterating further, we could give players the ability to write their own templates and export them, so for example a new recruit could be given the 'Corp Bootcamp' template, etc., or we could download 'Fox Gaden's first 2 million SP' template ;) They already have the tools, sometimes it appears they don-¦t know or simply don-¦t like them. ISIS Certificates
Lady MDK Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 81	Posted - 2014.05.12 14:49:00 - [27] - Quote The skill tree doesn't need changing... Especially what needs changing is how you intrkoduce new players to the concept I.e. actually have a new player experience that teaches the concept. Anyone getting annoyed by reading of the above post should consider the following. I don't care so neither should you :)
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2087	Posted - 2014.05.12 14:53:00 - [28] - Quote Lady MDK wrote: The skill tree doesn't need changing... Especially what needs changing is how you intrkoduce new players to the concept I.e. actually have a new player experience that teaches the concept. +1. My position also. Educate peeps before you constrain them. PSN: RationalSpark
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 55	Posted - 2014.05.12 15:03:00 - [29] - Quote Hopefully they'll give both a go during the beta... see which one works out better. (Hopefully that'll be the DUST method...) MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 458	Posted - 2014.05.12 15:13:00 - [30] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: Hopefully they'll give both a go during the beta... see which one works out better. (Hopefully that'll be the DUST method...) The Dust method is still lacking (1-3-5 Basic-Advanced-Proto), skills that don-¦t give any bonus and are only pre-req and counterintuitive... More EVE style skill, tiercide, NPE, and access instead of dumbed down experience.



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