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dent 308
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2984
   |
Posted - 2014.05.09 15:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
With a F2P shooter on the PC, what will be done to ensure fights that matter, ( districts, FW, etc ) are not overrun with expendable characters employing hacks / cheats?
I understand the persistant character mechanics will reduce the amount of players willing to risk their mains, but what about the players willing to create 10 hour hero alts and leverage every advantage available for a single match?
On the console we have seen players use every possible advantage in fights. SSDs and modded controllers are bad enough to deal with. What will be done about the inevitable wallhacks, aimbots and other vermin ?
This article touches on the scale and business of the opposition :
http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/04/30/hacks-an-investigation-into-aimbot-dealers-wallhack-users-and-the-million-dollar-business-of-video-game-cheating/
http://dl.pcgamer.com/PCG%20large%20images/cheatingfeature/cscheatgif3-2.gif
Rick : And remember, this gun is pointed right at your heart.
Captain Renault : That is my least vulnerable spot
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ANON Cerberus
Tiny Toons
602
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Posted - 2014.05.09 15:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
At the very least I would hope CCP are looking at methods like punkbuster. I know punkbuster isnt perfect but I must say I have never had any issues in punkbuster enabled games. I am sure there are other methods too. |
dent 308
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2984
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Posted - 2014.05.09 15:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
I have observed magical bullshit in pointless lobby shooters. With more meaningful fights I think the incentive to cheat will be much more amplified.
Rick : And remember, this gun is pointed right at your heart.
Captain Renault : That is my least vulnerable spot
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John Psi
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
Steel Balls Alliance
627
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Posted - 2014.05.09 15:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
dent 308 wrote:
I understand the persistant character mechanics will reduce the amount of players willing to risk their mains, but what about the players willing to create 10 hour hero alts and leverage every advantage available for a single match?
Good training targets 4 us.
...sorry for bad English =)
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dent 308
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2984
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Posted - 2014.05.09 15:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
John Psi wrote:dent 308 wrote:
I understand the persistant character mechanics will reduce the amount of players willing to risk their mains, but what about the players willing to create 10 hour hero alts and leverage every advantage available for a single match?
Good training targets 4 us.
A 10 hour hero won't be able to tank much, but equipped with a high alpha weapon and an aimbot they would be magic fast.
Even more so if there is a few of them running.
I am curious to hear ( at least in the broad strokes, without opsec detail ) what is being considered to counter this sort of crap.
Another dynamic could be hiring mercs who employ such fuckery. Could there be fallout from this sort of business?
Rick : And remember, this gun is pointed right at your heart.
Captain Renault : That is my least vulnerable spot
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14810
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
So would you risk losing a year old character to a ban?
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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dent 308
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2984
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So would you risk losing a year old character to a ban?
10 hour hero is an alt, not a main.
Rick : And remember, this gun is pointed right at your heart.
Captain Renault : That is my least vulnerable spot
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DUST Fiend
The Wings of Legion
14278
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
dent 308 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So would you risk losing a year old character to a ban? 10 hour hero is an alt, not a main.
This is basically my only concern with Legion right now
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
3338
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
dent 308 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So would you risk losing a year old character to a ban? 10 hour hero is an alt, not a main.
Alts are connected to your main, they would ban the account not the character.
And I'm guessing they'll already have rules against creating multiple accounts using the same IP, so trying to do that would be pointless too.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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dent 308
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2984
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
IP is not a protection for anything. Anyone saavy enough to employ hacks would be able to employ another IP.
There are also cases where multiple players could be sharing an IP due to isp stupidness as well.
Rick : And remember, this gun is pointed right at your heart.
Captain Renault : That is my least vulnerable spot
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14813
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
dent 308 wrote:IP is not a protection for anything. Anyone saavy enough to employ hacks would be able to employ another IP.
There are also cases where multiple players could be sharing an IP due to isp stupidness as well.
Not good enough CCP ban hammers have nailed accounts entirely 'unrelated' to the 'cheaters' in eve before. The cheaters tears are rather delicious when the bans go out because you get to hear how excessively far they went to protect their accounts and how useless the efforts are.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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dent 308
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2984
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 16:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Good stuff, however this is arms race type stuff once begun.
I am hearing in PS2 they have even gone to the point of having invisible devs/gms flying about in matches looking for badness.
There could be a considerable manpower cost to all these activities.
Rick : And remember, this gun is pointed right at your heart.
Captain Renault : That is my least vulnerable spot
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14814
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
dent 308 wrote:Good stuff, however this is arms race type stuff once begun.
I am hearing in PS2 they have even gone to the point of having invisible devs/gms flying about in matches looking for badness.
There could be a considerable manpower cost to all these activities.
Funny it was those abilities that cheaters have borrowed back in the days when the console command was available.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Nyctohylophobia
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
dent 308 wrote:IP is not a protection for anything. Anyone saavy enough to employ hacks would be able to employ another IP.
There are also cases where multiple players could be sharing an IP due to isp stupidness as well.
No, but if you are like me with a 11+ year old EVE account with a 205 million SP character, you are not going to do anything naughty to jeopardize that account. |
Nyctohylophobia
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:dent 308 wrote:Good stuff, however this is arms race type stuff once begun.
I am hearing in PS2 they have even gone to the point of having invisible devs/gms flying about in matches looking for badness.
There could be a considerable manpower cost to all these activities. Funny it was those abilities that cheaters have borrowed back in the days when the console command was available.
While the console command is gone, the noclip exploit is still an issue. |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2191
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Posted - 2014.05.09 18:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dent's point is that people would start a brand new account (free to play, remember?) and use that to do their banworthy actions, leaving their real character untouchable.
If possible, punkbuster would be good. I've never encountered any blatant cheating in a punkbuster game. Aside from that I see a few design options
1) Limit the effectiveness of a brand new character like that enough that it isn't worth trying to bring them into territory fights to cheat with. Kind of a bad idea, since it really punishes new players.
2) Restrict access to territory battles until a character is a certain age and has participated in enough of structured battles with a certain level of performance. The idea is to make a throwaway alt more work than people are willing to do. If the battles happen in a truly open world area, restriction might have to be through reducing their damage output by 100% or something.
3) Along with client monitoring (Eve has done well in detecting hacked clients), make it so that in order for a new character to participate he has to be sponsored / guaranteed by a much older character. If the young character is a cheat and it is detected, the older character gets punished as if it was him.
4) Roll back the territory ownership effects of any battle where cheating is detected.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8456
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 18:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aimbots should be easy to deal with on a PC. Just make it so that aim assist is hardly noticeable and NEVER user auto-aim-to-head when zooming in like you would likely see in CoD.
As for wall hacks, that's an entirely different beast.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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CCP Saberwing
C C P
C C P Alliance
4390
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Posted - 2014.05.09 18:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
We're totally aware of how prevalent cheating can be on PC, and we're looking in to anti-cheating. The security guys will be very busy, I'm sure. :)
CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8456
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 18:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:We're totally aware of how prevalent cheating can be on PC, and we're looking in to anti-cheating. The security guys will be very busy, I'm sure. :)
Are you guys intending to implement Punk Buster?
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2194
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 18:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Some more rough ideas.
Monitor the statistics of brand new characters and flag them if their stats are *too good*, allowing an invisible GM to follow them around. If a previously unknown hack is being used and got through the anti-cheating systems, refund everyone killed for their losses and zero the cheater's stats. This would reduce the incentive to cheat.
For territorial conquest battles, borrow from Eve's war system. In order to take territory you have to declare that you're going to take territory from the other corp. Anyone not in your corp / alliance does reduced damage within the battle area, but when declaring your intent you can add allies to the combatant list. This excludes npc corp alts from affecting the outcome, but has a risk similar to district locking that would need to be accounted for.
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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
945
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Posted - 2014.05.09 18:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:We're totally aware of how prevalent cheating can be on PC, and we're looking in to anti-cheating. The security guys will be very busy, I'm sure. :) Are you guys intending to implement Punk Buster?
Punk Buster is not the only option, FairFight being one alternative - plus it is Legion is still only a prototype. |
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CCP Saberwing
C C P
C C P Alliance
4390
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Posted - 2014.05.09 18:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ryder Azorria wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:We're totally aware of how prevalent cheating can be on PC, and we're looking in to anti-cheating. The security guys will be very busy, I'm sure. :) Are you guys intending to implement Punk Buster? Punk Buster is not the only option, FairFight being one alternative - plus it is Legion is still only a prototype.
I really don't know at this point. I think it's a little early to say, and again I'm not in Shanghai to follow up for you right now. I know that security is of utmost importance to us however!
CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1969
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Posted - 2014.05.09 18:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nyctohylophobia wrote:dent 308 wrote:IP is not a protection for anything. Anyone saavy enough to employ hacks would be able to employ another IP.
There are also cases where multiple players could be sharing an IP due to isp stupidness as well. No, but if you are like me with a 11+ year old EVE account with a 205 million SP character, you are not going to do anything naughty to jeopardize that account.
Totally off-topic but....
What exactly can't you do with a 205m SP char?
I ask can't since I think it would be easier to list that than what you can do
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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Nyctohylophobia
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.05.09 19:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Nyctohylophobia wrote:dent 308 wrote:IP is not a protection for anything. Anyone saavy enough to employ hacks would be able to employ another IP.
There are also cases where multiple players could be sharing an IP due to isp stupidness as well. No, but if you are like me with a 11+ year old EVE account with a 205 million SP character, you are not going to do anything naughty to jeopardize that account. Totally off-topic but.... What exactly can't you do with a 205m SP char? I ask can't since I think it would be easier to list that than what you can do
Fly titans, because I choose not to. |
Phoenix 85
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
68
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Posted - 2014.05.09 19:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Aimbots should be easy to deal with on a PC. Just make it so that aim assist is hardly noticeable and NEVER user auto-aim-to-head when zooming in like you would likely see in CoD.
As for wall hacks, that's an entirely different beast.
In regards to 10-hour disposable alts, I recommend the following changes to at least deal with the ISK farming.
1. Increase termination cooldown timer to 24 hours.
2. Implement a proper Academy system in Legion that feel like an actual academy.
3. Require the player to complete the entire academy before being able to transfer any ISK at all to anyone.
As for tracing perps using disposable alts, it's very easy to track them. Just follow the ISK trail recorded from every transaction. This enabled CCP to catch RMT bastards on multiple ISPs and emails that (at first glance) appear to be unrelated to each other.
Lock new chars to acadamy until they reach 500,000 war points and 3 mil SP.
Dust 514 cancelled, EvE players be like
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Whinis
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
37
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Posted - 2014.05.10 12:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ryder Azorria wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:We're totally aware of how prevalent cheating can be on PC, and we're looking in to anti-cheating. The security guys will be very busy, I'm sure. :) Are you guys intending to implement Punk Buster? Punk Buster is not the only option, FairFight being one alternative - plus it is Legion is still only a prototype.
Im sorry but neither of those work very well and act very much as spyware on your computer and like some other programs are near impossible to remove. The best way to fight those is not to sit there and try and implement every program around but do as eve does and look for odd patterns (such as consecutive headshots when not humanly possible) and ban people that way . The last thing I want on my computer is some malware just to make some people feel good. |
Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
479
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 13:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
There are passive hacks as well, like tweaking the shimmering effects to highlight cloaked scouts. Eve had an exploit where the audio could be 'enhanced' to detect a cloaked ship anywhere in the solar system.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8470
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 13:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Whinis wrote:Ryder Azorria wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:We're totally aware of how prevalent cheating can be on PC, and we're looking in to anti-cheating. The security guys will be very busy, I'm sure. :) Are you guys intending to implement Punk Buster? Punk Buster is not the only option, FairFight being one alternative - plus it is Legion is still only a prototype. Im sorry but neither of those work very well and act very much as spyware on your computer and like some other programs are near impossible to remove. The best way to fight those is not to sit there and try and implement every program around but do as eve does and look for odd patterns (such as consecutive headshots when not humanly possible) and ban people that way . The last thing I want on my computer is some malware just to make some people feel good.
In that case, I guess I don't think I want it on my computer either. I'm sure CCP can figure out patterns using their experience from Eve.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Thrydwulf Khodan
94
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Posted - 2014.05.10 13:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
The issues with policing computer based FPS games and the necessity for 'anti-hack' applications that are invasive is one of the reasons that the console market can make for a more consistent and 'even' experience for users.
Even if 'development work' for personal computers is 'easier'.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8473
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Posted - 2014.05.10 14:16:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thrydwulf Khodan wrote:The issues with policing computer based FPS games and the necessity for 'anti-hack' applications that are invasive is one of the reasons that the console market can make for a more consistent and 'even' experience for users.
Even if 'development work' for personal computers is 'easier'.
Eve Online actually has a built-in checker that does a quick scan of anything manipulating the data going in and out of the client. It's the first line of defense against bot users use software to manipulate the data in a way that enables them to AFK mine and mission for hours without attending the computer. More advanced bot programs use OCR (optical character readers) to get around that but CCP can catch those as well by simply using a combination of looking for suspicious ISK transactions and behavior detection which is usually updated on a regular basis.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Roy Xkillerz
Red Star.
EoN.
52
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Posted - 2014.05.10 14:20:00 -
[31] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:We're totally aware of how prevalent cheating can be on PC, and we're looking in to anti-cheating. The security guys will be very busy, I'm sure. :) Are you guys intending to implement Punk Buster?
I am not sure if thats the best system to put in. I know games hackers can do lots off stuff without getting banned we need something better.
Fairfight also not a good option nope it does not do its job in infestation stories. He will ban in 1 week. You want 1 hacker to ruin multi districts and getting banned in 1 week with lots off damage done? You want quick reactions.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8474
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 14:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
Roy Xkillerz wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:We're totally aware of how prevalent cheating can be on PC, and we're looking in to anti-cheating. The security guys will be very busy, I'm sure. :) Are you guys intending to implement Punk Buster? I am not sure if thats the best system to put in. I know games hackers can do lots off stuff without getting banned we need something better. Fairfight also not a good option nope it does not do its job in infestation stories. He will ban in 1 week. You want 1 hacker to ruin multi districts and getting banned in 1 week with lots off damage done? You want quick reactions.
Which is why it's probably best for CCP to do what they do with Eve on Legion.
Flag suspicious ISK transactions.
Look for odd player behavior.
Use the Eve Online client checker to see if anyone is manipulating the data sent between the client and the server.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
1779
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Posted - 2014.05.10 14:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
I don't know how big of a deal the 10 hour hero thing is going to be in DUST/Legion. It is hard to tell just how much you will be able to screw with your corporations in Legion. If Legion is just like DUST now but with more stuff, will it matter about creating separate alts to do damage like they do in EVE?
Now for creating alternate accounts to cheat, there we have something don't we? Cheating happens in World of Warcraft where you have investment of at least 20 dollars for the WoW battlechest and 15 bucks a month after the first month. It will surely happen in a free to play game where all you need is an e-mail account to set up an account. Some kind of anti-cheating to detect people doing so will cut down people doing it but the latest and greatest wall-hacks and the like will always be around. Even if it cuts the cheating down to only being able to last a few days you still just have to create a new account every time to be able to do so.
CCP could cut this down in some unfavorable ways:
1. Require linking a credit card to Legion. This means that someone who cheats will be able to be banned for good even on another account. This is a terrible idea though. Free to play games love the 10 dollars here and there crowd. Requiring a credit card right off the bat will push people away. It also has the "my son used my card, cheated on his account, and now my account is band" thing.
2. IP address. A simple Google search gets you around that though.
The main thing for the Biomass Farm is to not give ISK but instead give credit that can only be used to buy skills. This means that a new player could buy skills and they may even start with Bind on Account weapons and modules but couldn't just send off their money to a different account.
"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
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Cyrus Militani
Leon Conglomerate
49
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Posted - 2014.05.10 18:15:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:We're totally aware of how prevalent cheating can be on PC, and we're looking in to anti-cheating. The security guys will be very busy, I'm sure. :)
It's too bad you guys weren't using Source w/ Steam instead of Unreal. They have this built-in already. |
Godin Thekiller
shadows of 514
2181
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Posted - 2014.05.10 19:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
Wait, how is a SSD a cheat tactic?
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2211
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Posted - 2014.05.10 20:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
If the game design isn't set up to counter an SSD it gives a huge advantage to the team who is using it. When PC launched we fought many teams who had SSD players, and while we were still lagging our way out of the MCC, a scout with an SSD (which gave him a 10 second head start before we even started to load the map) was already into the center structure of the map placing links for the rest of the team to spawn on. It meant that they could capture 3 of the 4 points before we even started to hack the point closest to our MCC.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8481
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Posted - 2014.05.10 20:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:The main thing for the Biomass Farm is to not give ISK but instead give credit that can only be used to buy skills. This means that a new player could buy skills and they may even start with Bind on Account weapons and modules but couldn't just send off their money to a different account.
CCP can simply implement the following steps that are relatively easy to do in Dust and should be even more easy to implement on Legion.
1. Lock all ISK transfers coming from that newly-created character until the character has completed the academy.
2. Reduce starter ISK to about 250,000 instead of the usual 500,000. Alternatively, you can reduce this to just 5,000 ISK but have the Academy give out some free skill books like how Eve players get free skill books when going through the tutorial system.
Done.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8481
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 20:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:If the game design isn't set up to counter an SSD it gives a huge advantage to the team who is using it. When PC launched we fought many teams who had SSD players, and while we were still lagging our way out of the MCC, a scout with an SSD (which gave him a 10 second head start before we even started to load the map) was already into the center structure of the map placing links for the rest of the team to spawn on. It meant that they could capture 3 of the 4 points before we even started to hack the point closest to our MCC.
But that doesn't mean that using SSD is a cheat. It just means CCP needs to make sure that Legion is coded in a way that it takes away this advantage. Besides, seeing that this is coming to the PC, a player shouldn't be punished for using better hardware.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1976
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Posted - 2014.05.10 20:33:00 -
[39] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Joseph Ridgeson wrote:The main thing for the Biomass Farm is to not give ISK but instead give credit that can only be used to buy skills. This means that a new player could buy skills and they may even start with Bind on Account weapons and modules but couldn't just send off their money to a different account. CCP can simply implement the following steps that are relatively easy to do in Dust and should be even more easy to implement on Legion. 1. Lock all ISK transfers coming from that newly-created character until the character has completed the academy. 2. Reduce starter ISK to about 250,000 instead of the usual 500,000. Alternatively, you can reduce this to just 5,000 ISK but have the Academy give out some free skill books like how Eve players get free skill books when going through the tutorial system. Done.
I would support the option #2 alternative in the name of consistency.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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