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Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
85
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
There's been talk of moving to a more COD-like progression system and dropping the use of SP altogether. I disagree strongly with getting rid of SP as a means of furthering our characters. It allows for the passive/active gain of skills over time and gives players a very direct means of measuring their progress toward unlockables.
I see this as a critical feature that legion must have to be successful.
What is everyone else's opinion on the matter? |
PR0FESSOR CHAOS
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
63
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Apparently wires got crossed and Shanghai was given the memo to PC port to placate eve players and make it everything they don't like. Enjoy fighting amongst yourselves at how un eve like your PC game is.
Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Dirt Nap Squad.
1842
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
the thing we like about dust is that it doesn't follow that same bs formula that every other game does.
so they're removing that part of the game.
eatsbabies cienfuegos
steward of the renegade alliance.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8400
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Were did they say that they will move to CoD-like progression? If you're talking about the Dust keynote that detailed progression in Legion that is nothing like CoD.
http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a568488/dust-514-sees-no-planned-updates-scraps-survival-mode-and-vita-app.html#
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Dirt Nap Squad.
1842
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Were did they say that they will move to CoD-like progression? If you're talking about the Dust keynote that detailed progression in Legion that is nothing like CoD.
i agree it looked more like a battlefield progression system. it looked EXACTLY like battlefield bad company's progression system.
eatsbabies cienfuegos
steward of the renegade alliance.
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Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
87
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Were did they say that they will move to CoD-like progression? If you're talking about the Dust keynote that detailed progression in Legion that is nothing like CoD.
Without linking specific posts, they've been very vague about how they want to continue skill progression (likely because it hasn't been decided yet), but the vibe I'm getting from the devs talking about it is that the Skill system will be dumbed down and flattened to the point that either there will be no real progression or it will be COD-like with unlocks and predetermined loadouts and more specific limitations on gear that can be used per suit.
I want to (hopefully) avoid that altogether and have a discussion for them to maybe look at before anything is set in stone. |
843 Epidemic
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
1037
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 15:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
What I don't understand is how they're trying to dumb it down when moving to PC. PC is the opportunity to make it more complez and intricate, you dumb it down for damn consoles. Seems all in reverse to me.
When Dust is ashes, then you will have my permission to Dance.
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Dirt Nap Squad.
1842
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
843 Epidemic wrote:What I don't understand is how they're trying to dumb it down when moving to PC. PC is the opportunity to make it more complez and intricate, you dumb it down for damn consoles. Seems all in reverse to me.
are you new to gaming?
eatsbabies cienfuegos
steward of the renegade alliance.
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Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
88
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
low genius wrote:843 Epidemic wrote:What I don't understand is how they're trying to dumb it down when moving to PC. PC is the opportunity to make it more complez and intricate, you dumb it down for damn consoles. Seems all in reverse to me. are you new to gaming?
I agree with his sentiment. With more hardware to throw at the game, they should have much more freedom in what and how they implement features. This would lead me to think that if they're going to go to higher spec hardware (PC), they can make the game more intricate and complex (fun). |
843 Epidemic
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
1037
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 15:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
low genius wrote:843 Epidemic wrote:What I don't understand is how they're trying to dumb it down when moving to PC. PC is the opportunity to make it more complez and intricate, you dumb it down for damn consoles. Seems all in reverse to me. are you new to gaming?
There's nothing particularly difficult to understand about what I said, is there? When you move to the PC it's a chance for the developer to make the systems more intricate, like, oh I don't know... EVE?
When Dust is ashes, then you will have my permission to Dance.
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BursegSardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
337
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
I hope there is a combination, tbh.
I think to use weapons/items/equipment I think SP is in a good place.
I also think shrinking weapons down to their core functionality (Assault Rifle, removing Breach/Tactical, etc) and allowing side-grades (RoF decrease for damage per shot increase, scope added with reduced magazine size) through use of the weapons would be a fun avenue to go down.
CEO of General Tso's Alliance.
Winner of Hulkageddon IV.
Contact me on my EVE character: Burseg Sardaukar
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Dirt Nap Squad.
1843
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fenix Alexarr wrote:low genius wrote:843 Epidemic wrote:What I don't understand is how they're trying to dumb it down when moving to PC. PC is the opportunity to make it more complez and intricate, you dumb it down for damn consoles. Seems all in reverse to me. are you new to gaming? I agree with his sentiment. With more hardware to throw at the game, they should have much more freedom in what and how they implement features. This would lead me to think that if they're going to go to higher spec hardware (PC), they can make the game more intricate and complex (fun).
the hardware requirements change very little. if they're sloppy with their coding, all the specs in the world don't make a good game.
they are NOT building an efficient system, they're building a bigger less efficient system.
eatsbabies cienfuegos
steward of the renegade alliance.
|
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Dirt Nap Squad.
1843
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 15:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
843 Epidemic wrote:low genius wrote:843 Epidemic wrote:What I don't understand is how they're trying to dumb it down when moving to PC. PC is the opportunity to make it more complez and intricate, you dumb it down for damn consoles. Seems all in reverse to me. are you new to gaming? There's nothing particularly difficult to understand about what I said, is there? When you move to the PC it's a chance for the developer to make the systems more intricate, like, oh I don't know... EVE?
just throwing 'eve' into the mix doesn't work anymore. that was the reason we liked dust. pick a lane.
eatsbabies cienfuegos
steward of the renegade alliance.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
3942
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm not a fan of the dumbing down of mechanics.
If they wanted to go with a more simple system they would need their gameplay to excel above and beyond anything else on the market.
IT DOES NOT.
And with a team that small working on it, it will not. |
843 Epidemic
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
1037
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 16:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
low genius wrote:843 Epidemic wrote:low genius wrote:843 Epidemic wrote:What I don't understand is how they're trying to dumb it down when moving to PC. PC is the opportunity to make it more complez and intricate, you dumb it down for damn consoles. Seems all in reverse to me. are you new to gaming? There's nothing particularly difficult to understand about what I said, is there? When you move to the PC it's a chance for the developer to make the systems more intricate, like, oh I don't know... EVE? just throwing 'eve' into the mix doesn't work anymore. that was the reason we liked dust. pick a lane.
What even is your point? You're just disagreeing with what I'm saying for seemingly no reason. Clearly you do not understand what I'm saying?
When Dust is ashes, then you will have my permission to Dance.
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WARxion ForDUST
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
38
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
"So you guys are playing this buggy, glitchy unfinished game because the progression system is different than in other, much more polished, popular games aren't you? Well, we have good news for you, we found the learning curve too steep(Gäó) and we will remove it."
Yes, I'm that desperate...
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Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
89
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
low genius wrote:Fenix Alexarr wrote:low genius wrote:843 Epidemic wrote:What I don't understand is how they're trying to dumb it down when moving to PC. PC is the opportunity to make it more complez and intricate, you dumb it down for damn consoles. Seems all in reverse to me. are you new to gaming? I agree with his sentiment. With more hardware to throw at the game, they should have much more freedom in what and how they implement features. This would lead me to think that if they're going to go to higher spec hardware (PC), they can make the game more intricate and complex (fun). the hardware requirements change very little. if they're sloppy with their coding, all the specs in the world don't make a good game. they are NOT building an efficient system, they're building a bigger less efficient system.
Fine, they aren't building the most efficient system. But I'm okay with that since I much prefer a sports car to an economy car.
Lets also remember that x86 as an architecture is simply easier to code for. This change alone will cause development to increase in both speed and quality.
But this is entirely off-topic. We're talking about skill progression... |
Flyingconejo
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
969
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 16:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
Why people always confuse complexity with depth, and simplicity with dumbness, is beyond me. You would all make terrible engineers.
Chess mechanics are simple, and it is a very deep game.
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Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
89
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 16:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
low genius wrote:843 Epidemic wrote:low genius wrote:843 Epidemic wrote:What I don't understand is how they're trying to dumb it down when moving to PC. PC is the opportunity to make it more complez and intricate, you dumb it down for damn consoles. Seems all in reverse to me. are you new to gaming? There's nothing particularly difficult to understand about what I said, is there? When you move to the PC it's a chance for the developer to make the systems more intricate, like, oh I don't know... EVE? just throwing 'eve' into the mix doesn't work anymore. that was the reason we liked dust. pick a lane.
The point here that he's trying to make is that dust's appeal is both the similarity and connection to Eve. Dropping those things cause dust to not be dust anymore. |
Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
3945
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 16:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Welp, you've got a very short timeframe in which to effectively convince CCP to halt their overhaul of the skill and inventory system.
Personally I believe that, for the most part, the current skill system works and should not be screwed with to a great degree. It would simply introduce more problems and we'd have another year of insane balance issues like we did with Dust.
And if the system is picked up and carried over one-for-one, then we don't need to worry about whacky SP conversion rates when dust transfers happen.
If any overhauling needs to happen, I think it needs to be focused around vehicles. Tankers aren't really happy with how fast tanks die in vehicle-vs-vehicle fights, and Infantry aren't happy with how easily they get tank stomped.
Methinks the proper way to fix that is to introduce capacitor and lose the cooldown on modules. Then introduce capacitor-killing tools to infantry as well as webifiers and other goodies so that stomping isn't so easy. When player counts rise, there should be more than enough AV on the field to make a nightmare for tankers who aren't properly supported. |
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Cyrus Militani
Leon Conglomerate
43
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
IMO, there is nothing wrong with the current progression system and skill tree. The problem is match making. That is the only thing that needs to be fixed. How? Remove it and allow players to choose who they want to fight and where. |
Joel II X
Dah Gods O Bacon
2515
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 16:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
low genius wrote:the thing we like about dust is that it doesn't follow that same bs formula that every other game does.
so they're removing that part of the game.
Seems about right. The thing about the skills, though, is that it would allow for an enhanced NPE...
... if PvE were to be introduced.
CCP. 1 step forward, 2 steps back. |
Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 16:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
@Logibro if you're listening
Could you please talk to whoever needs to be talked to about getting a mass survey out about this like we've had before? I feel like those surveys would give CCP an idea of how people feel about those changes. |
Cymek Omnius
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 16:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fenix Alexarr wrote:There's been talk of moving to a more COD-like progression system and dropping the use of SP altogether. I disagree strongly with getting rid of SP as a means of furthering our characters. It allows for the passive/active gain of skills over time and gives players a very direct means of measuring their progress toward unlockables.
I see this as a critical feature that legion must have to be successful.
What is everyone else's opinion on the matter?
I think moving from a SP system to anything else would cause more confusion to new customers more than help. They want all three games to be used by same launcher. It makes since to keep all three games as similar as possible and Eve is a SP system.
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Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 16:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxhrGVv0NuQ
relevant video. He mentions that the flexibility of the system is a problem. Wow. Please straighten him out CCP :( |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8402
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 17:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cyrus Militani wrote:IMO, there is nothing wrong with the current progression system and skill tree. The problem is match making. That is the only thing that needs to be fixed. How? Remove it and allow players to choose who they want to fight and where.
I think you need to start getting reading glasses or get better prescription lenses. The current progression system is already messed up as was outlined in detail earlier in this thread. It needs to be more practical and efficient. For example, suits should undergo a tieracide while weapons and modules retain their tiered system just like how it is in Eve. Another thing to add is to give every skill book a bonus of some form. Currently there are no bonuses from skilling into basic frames and some skill levels (ie: lvl 4-5) don't have any use. At least in Eve Online, every skill book has a bonus somewhere whether it's from the skill book directly or the ship you fly.
For example: There is a skill book in Eve that is called ORE Industrial if I remember correctly and it doesn't show any bonuses in its description. However, certain ships like the Orca, Rorqual, and that salvage ship of which I forgot its name has a bonus built into it that is affected by the level of the skill book. Applying something like that to the basic frames alone in Dust would go a long way in eliminating SP sinks and finally give use to those useless skill books that don't give any bonuses.
http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a568488/dust-514-sees-no-planned-updates-scraps-survival-mode-and-vita-app.html#
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
3947
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 17:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Fenix Alexarr wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxhrGVv0NuQ
relevant video. He mentions that the flexibility of the system is a problem. Wow. Please straighten him out CCP :(
I agree. This particular devs view of the skill system is incredibly disturbing.
He considers a problem what we would consider a boon.
That leads me to think the next iteration of New Eden FPS is going to become incredibly dumbed down, and not really resemble EVE at all.
edit: Did he say he was the monetization director? Now it all makes sense. He's one of those guys who thinks dumbing things down always makes a game more appealing. He's in for a rather rude awakening... |
Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 17:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Fenix Alexarr wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxhrGVv0NuQ
relevant video. He mentions that the flexibility of the system is a problem. Wow. Please straighten him out CCP :( I agree. This particular devs view of the skill system is incredibly disturbing. He considers a problem what we would consider a boon. That leads me to think the next iteration of New Eden FPS is going to become incredibly dumbed down, and not really resemble EVE at all.
There are so many disturbing things in this presentation. I will not be playing EVE:Legion if this is how you want to proceed, CCP. Make these proposed changes public sooner so that the player base can lash out again and let you know how counter to the spirit of dust this is. |
RayRay James
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
128
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Fenix Alexarr wrote:@Logibro if you're listening
Could you please talk to whoever needs to be talked to about getting a mass survey out about this like we've had before? I feel like those surveys would give CCP an idea of how people feel about those changes.
Logibro "moved on to a new opportunity" and is , as far as I know, no longer with CCP.
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Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
91
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
RayRay James wrote:Fenix Alexarr wrote:@Logibro if you're listening
Could you please talk to whoever needs to be talked to about getting a mass survey out about this like we've had before? I feel like those surveys would give CCP an idea of how people feel about those changes. Logibro "moved on to a new opportunity" and is , as far as I know, no longer with CCP.
Source? This is not inspiring faith in the new product. |
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