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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1346
   |
Posted - 2014.12.04 03:56:00 -
[271] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:
I can't figure out why Jaysyn Larrisen wants to nerf Logi so bad. There must be something he is not ``getting`` about Bandwidth. I mean, won`t a Proto Cal Logi suit have the Bandwidth to lay out like 9 pieces of equipment (Nano Hive/Drop Uplinks)? Just how many pieces of equipment does Jaysyn feel a logi should be able to have active at the same time? Also Jaysyn's alternative suggestions for reducing equipment spam seem very draconian.
First, I do find it laughable that you think I'm proposing a nerf to logi players. You are being over the top to try and make a point so I'll let that one slide since I know I do it on occaision.
As I've noted in numerous other areas...my number one beef with BW is that it dramatically reduces tactical flexibility and adaptabiity of players. This is a pretty clear case of something that folks are doing in non-productive way creating blowback on those that aren't doing it. If I play 80% of a match as a logi and my team needs me to run AV at somepoint in the middle since I happend to be pretty good at killing tanks and dropships I might very actually hurt my team more by switching roles and burning well placed and tactically viable pieces of gear. You can say "team play rules" all you want but the vast majority of matches played by people in Dust the only "team" you have is the folks in your squad and the blueberries are background noise.
The other point is that logi players that are dedicated support guys (i.e. stay in the suit after the first 3min of the match) often have to support multiple locations and disparate elements. It's not uncommon for me to be in a match and find maybe one other player actually running team support other than me...that's what also generates a fair amount of equipment that needs to be on the ground.
This is all complicated by the fact that some racial lines are soley dependant on deployables to make them viable (major problem) and the have varied numbers of equipment slots. As you note yourelf...serious survivability issues and other rough spots clearly need to be addressed.
As to the comment about "draconian measures" - pay attention to what I said, I was very specifically referring to uplinks only since Xel and IWS had the most invective directed towards uplink spam particularly and I offered an incremental step very similar to the same one CCP already used for grenades. Lower the number of active uplinks (not carried) due to how powerful that specific piece of equipement is in relation to hives, REs, or proxies. I also noted that not being allowed to place equipment withing a 10m circle of a supply depot and repositioning supply depots would be a great way to cut down on garbage placement of equipment. I'm not really sure I can call those steps "draconian" in comparison to potentially popping 3/4's of a rack of proto equipment if my team / squad needs something else at that moment.
Let me be clear...I consider myself a very dedicated support player and that doesn't always mean I should wear logi suits exclusively since they aren't the best support all the time depending on the situation.
Furthermore, I have already dialouged with Rattati and let him know that I may not like the as described BW concept but I know it's coming and I want to help make it a solid feature. He's also included an initial racial bonus to Amarr / Cal logi's for flat BW increase per level which is a good move. I take some issue with a few of the BW costs per equipment (i.e. uplinks should cost more BW than a rep hive...it's a mini-wormhole for pete's sake!) and I'm going to work with him to make it as good of an option for the game as possible. That doesn't mean i don't have conceptual issues with the design.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5305
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Posted - 2014.12.04 14:03:00 -
[272] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:First, I do find it laughable that you think I'm proposing a nerf to logi players. You are being over the top to try and make a point so I'll let that one slide since I know I do it on occaision.
Dude, you clearly suggested that the deployment cap on individual equipment should be lowered, as an alternative to Bandwidth. Maybe that is not what you meant to say?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5305
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Posted - 2014.12.04 14:06:00 -
[273] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:
As I've noted in numerous other areas...my number one beef with BW is that it dramatically reduces tactical flexibility and adaptabiity of players. This is a pretty clear case of something that folks are doing in non-productive way creating blowback on those that aren't doing it. If I play 80% of a match as a logi and my team needs me to run AV at somepoint in the middle since I happen to be pretty good at killing tanks and dropships I might very actually hurt my team more by switching roles and burning well placed and tactically viable pieces of gear. You can say "team play rules" all you want but the vast majority of matches played by people in Dust the only "team" you have is the folks in your squad and the blueberries are background noise.
Well, lets give the Caldari Logi a Sidearm Slot so that Logi get a second AV option. As it is there is no reason why an Amarr Logi should not have a Swarm Launcher fit.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5305
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Posted - 2014.12.04 14:17:00 -
[274] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:
The other point is that logi players that are dedicated support guys (i.e. stay in the suit after the first 3min of the match) often have to support multiple locations and disparate elements. It's not uncommon for me to be in a match and find maybe one other player actually running team support other than me...that's what also generates a fair amount of equipment that needs to be on the ground.
Oh boo ho. How do you think I feel as a Sentinel when no one on my team is dropping Uplinks. It will mean that I have to change from my primary role into a secondary role and remain in that role for the remainder of the match. You don't hear me crying about it... ok, so I did cry a little... but I got over it.
The deployment Logi (Amarr & Caldari) have enough band width to lay down quite a bit of equipment. If it turns out not to be enough, then argue for more before the next balance pass. A change as big as Bandwidth will require a few tweaks after it is deployed.
One of the changes I am arguing for is to get rid of the tier stepping of the Bandwidth and have it the same for all tiers of a suit. Then give Logi a suit Skill bonus to Bandwidth so they are the only class that gets more Bandwidth as they skill up, but would also mean that a Proto Logi can switch to a Standard suit when his team is being stomped without losing equipment.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5305
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Posted - 2014.12.04 14:25:00 -
[275] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:This is all complicated by the fact that some racial lines are soley dependant on deployables to make them viable (major problem) and the have varied numbers of equipment slots. As you note yourelf...serious survivability issues and other rough spots clearly need to be addressed.
Now:
Standard Amarr/Caldari have 2 equipment slots
Scouts have 2 equipment slots.
Other Standard Logi have 3 equipment slots.
Then:
Standard Amarr/Caldari have 2 equipment slots, and a crap-tun of bandwidth.
Scouts have 2 equipment slots, and crap bandwidth.
Other Standard Logit have 3 equipment slots, but less bandwidth than Amarr/Caldari
It looks like Bandwidth allows Amarr/Caldari Logi to pull farther ahead of the competition...
I made a proposal here which would finally put the "slayer Logi" fears to bed and allow proper balancing of the Logi class.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5305
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Posted - 2014.12.04 14:51:00 -
[276] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:As to the comment about "draconian measures" - pay attention to what I said, I was very specifically referring to uplinks only since Xel and IWS had the most invective directed towards uplink spam particularly and I offered an incremental step very similar to the same one CCP already used for grenades. Lower the number of active uplinks (not carried) due to how powerful that specific piece of equipement is in relation to hives, REs, or proxies. I also noted that not being allowed to place equipment withing a 10m circle of a supply depot and repositioning supply depots would be a great way to cut down on garbage placement of equipment. I'm not really sure I can call those steps "draconian" in comparison to potentially popping 3/4's of a rack of proto equipment if my team / squad needs something else at that moment.
You must play Caldari Logi, because I am fairly sure an Amarr Logi would indeed call that a "draconian measure".
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1346
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 15:08:00 -
[277] - Quote
Ok...I'm not going to fence with you over a series of half a dozen posts in the same thread. If you are attempting to troll or poke it's not working. I attempted to respond to your feedback comments and you seek to dissect my post by misinterpreting it or taking comments in isolation. I shrunk your comment down purely to make room for my response as I didn't want 2 text walls there.
If you read my response in its entirety I think you will find that I am simply voicing concerns that a minority of veteran players had about the bandwidth idea. Our view i suspect at its core is rewarding folks for adaptability and positive reinforcement of certain playstyles is much preferred to offering punishing options to keep folks in a given role or playstyle. The simple fact is that bandwidth is a constraining factor that effects logis far more than any other class and not an incentive or positive reinforcing mechanic.
As for your comment about uplinks ...you ignored any substantive comment and simply take a dig? I can usually count on you to have better dialogue than this. You'll remember this is also why I said that the logi suits needed to be reworked period...the current suits are becoming untenable as the game continues to progress and they do not.
Again, please note that while I have conceptual issues with bandwidth in that I don't like being forced into playstyle options I'm supporting Rattati in working to make it good mechanic.
If you want to joust about this further I can meet you on coms if you wish.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5307
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 15:19:00 -
[278] - Quote
I am not trying to Troll. I am seriously having difficulty understanding your position.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1346
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 15:47:00 -
[279] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I am not trying to Troll. I am seriously having difficulty understanding your position.
That is simply because we have a different perspective and experience the game differently even though we can be in the same match. For every one that says equipment brings lag there are those like you and I that don't have much lag. PS...i don't have nearly the optimal set up that you do either. For folks that don't like equipment spam (and i'm one) consider the length of a match...not just the first 3 minutes of it.
Your points are as valid as mine (or others that have differing opinions). I was puzzled by what I took as the trollish tone of some your responses and the fact that you seem to take the individual paragraphs out of context.
Bandwidth is coming and I'm seeking to make it better than currently described because it's a rough and moderately polished implementation plan.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5309
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 17:14:00 -
[280] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:That is simply because we have a different perspective and experience the game differently even though we can be in the same match.
Yeah, but understanding other people's points of view is my THING! This is driving me crazy, which may account for my "Trollish tone". 
The reason I like Bandwidth is that it provides a whole new set of balancing mechanisms for equipment usage. The usefulness of a Logi suit will no longer be just a matter of how many Equipment Slots it has. Bandwidth allows the Caldari/Amarr Logi to be better than the other two for deploying equipment, even though they have less Equipment Slots. It also allows Logi to be clearly superior to Scouts when it comes to deplorable equipment (although I think they are nerfing Scouts a little too hard).
I do see problems with individual aspects of the new Bandwidth system, but those problems are all in the implementation of the system, things that can be tweaked, rather than with the core of the system itself.
- Logi need a way to destroy specific equipment to free up bandwidth to avoid losing the first equipment they placed. (I mean besides standing on your Nano Hive and tossing grenades.)
- Standard Scouts should be able to place 3 Remote Explosives at one time. (Frisbee remotes are placed and detonated one at a time, so Bandwidth does not effect them regardless. Having the Bandwidth for placing 3 remotes would be fore AV and Objective defense.)
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
4964
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 17:33:00 -
[281] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:deplorable equipment
Freud-ed.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5310
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 17:34:00 -
[282] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:deplorable equipment Freud-ed.
Some of my best jokes are unintentional. Dam Spell Check. 
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
4964
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Posted - 2014.12.04 17:36:00 -
[283] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:- Relating to the previous point, I don't like how Bandwidth gives such an advantage to the APEX suits.
While Apex are proto-based, technically Apex suits are their own items, and bandwidth *could* be nerfed on them separately. Though as they're advertised as prototype suits, I suppose it would be poor form to make them less than prototype suits spec-wise.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5310
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 18:43:00 -
[284] - Quote
Still listening to this weekGÇÖs episode, and am trying to keep from cracking up at Soraya arguing with Jaysyn about the significance of a Key Note while barely managing to stop himself from breaking NDA. It sounds like Soraya is going to burst at any moment.  You can almost hear the air hiss out of him as he tries to contain himself. 
Now, a few days later, we know why there will be no new announcements about DUST. Now hopefully they give us a Legion update before Fanfest as well. Then players who attend Fanfest can talk to Rouge about it face to face at the round tables.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5310
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Posted - 2014.12.04 19:13:00 -
[285] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:- Relating to the previous point, I don't like how Bandwidth gives such an advantage to the APEX suits. While Apex are proto-based, technically Apex suits are their own items, and bandwidth *could* be nerfed on them separately. Though as they're advertised as prototype suits, I suppose it would be poor form to make them less than prototype suits spec-wise.
I would rather the Logi Bandwidth be linked to Suit Skill rather than Suit Tier, and outside of the Logi suits to have a single value per suit rather than different Bandwidth values for each tier.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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137H4RGIC
Bloodline Rebellion
Capital Punishment.
384
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Posted - 2014.12.05 07:52:00 -
[286] - Quote
Sorry a when is the podcast this week?
I want to help DUST become a better experience for everyone. Let's work together!
137H4RGIC - Running for CPM2 (SOONGäó)
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
4972
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Posted - 2014.12.05 08:10:00 -
[287] - Quote
137H4RGIC wrote:Sorry a when is the podcast this week?
Probably our usual time, Sunday night, 10 PM EST.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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da GAND
Seykal Expeditionary Group
Minmatar Republic
1033
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 17:19:00 -
[288] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:137H4RGIC wrote:Sorry a when is the podcast this week? Probably our usual time, Sunday night, 10 PM EST.
hey you guys gonna be doing the podcast tonight at 10pm eastern?
Should Legion be on the ps4?
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1351
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 17:53:00 -
[289] - Quote
0200 Eve time...so 10PM Eastern and 7PM Best Coast. 
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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137H4RGIC
Bloodline Rebellion
Capital Punishment.
390
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Posted - 2014.12.07 20:35:00 -
[290] - Quote
I'll be getting on to guest about 15 minutes late
I want to help DUST become a better experience for everyone. Let's work together!
137H4RGIC - Running for CPM2 (SOONGäó)
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da GAND
Seykal Expeditionary Group
Minmatar Republic
1033
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Posted - 2014.12.07 21:02:00 -
[291] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:0200 Eve time...so 10PM Eastern and 7PM Best Coast.
aight so should I just contact you guys via skype? I gotta get going right now and might be able to contact you guys before you start the podcast
Should Legion be on the ps4?
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1353
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Posted - 2014.12.07 22:48:00 -
[292] - Quote
Sounds good.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1353
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 02:13:00 -
[293] - Quote
My ability to tell time has been degraded apparently. The show is @ 0300 Eve time...forgot to calc for Daylight Savings Time.
Again.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1354
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Posted - 2014.12.08 05:31:00 -
[294] - Quote
Had a great surprise guest on tonight... CCP Rattati. 
https://s3.amazonaws.com/biomassed/BiomassedEp32.mp3
Let us know what you think!
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3844
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 16:11:00 -
[295] - Quote
"That little **** Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Best episode ever.
"That little shit Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5351
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Posted - 2014.12.08 16:28:00 -
[296] - Quote
Bandwidth:
Rattati says that the tierring of the Bandwidth lines up with Advanced and Proto logi having more slots, but the other suits don't get more equipment slots at higher levels. Why are other suits getting different amounts of Bandwidth for Std/Adv/Pro?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1373
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 20:56:00 -
[297] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Bandwidth: Rattati says that the tierring of the Bandwidth lines up with Advanced and Proto logi having more slots, but the other suits don't get more equipment slots at higher levels. Why are other suits getting different amounts of Bandwidth for Std/Adv/Pro? Jaysyn Larrisen in the interest of helping you spend your EVE ISK, I will be passing your invitation to all members of the Learning Alliance. I know quite a few of them have new EVE accounts. I always recommend Agony Unleashed's PVP classes, and I am happy to pass along this special offer.
Good deal, Fox.
First 10 that contact me will get a slot in the next PVP Basic paid for by Biomasses Podcast. The normal cost is 20mil ISK for the class so for a new player it's a noticeable chunk of change.
FYSA...i think our next PVP Basic will be after the holidays as you can imagine. I'll pimp this out a little more as we keep going forward.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Darth-Carbonite GIO
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
1364
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Posted - 2014.12.16 03:41:00 -
[298] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:"That little **** Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Best episode ever.
I think he likes you.
GIMMIE MY PINK LAZOR
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5483
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Posted - 2014.12.18 18:11:00 -
[299] - Quote
Was there a Podcast this week. Is it going to be updated on http://biomassed.net/podcast soon?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1404
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Posted - 2014.12.18 21:38:00 -
[300] - Quote
I just noticed it wasnt up on iTunes. I'll poke Soraya to see what's up.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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