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Medical Crash
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
314
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Posted - 2014.04.28 03:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lets say this is a PC battle, there being a city, and in the city there are two points out of a total of five.
The enemy team Has 2 Very High HP Heavies, 1 High HP Logi, and 1 High HP very fast strafing Caldari Assault guarding one of the points. Lets assume it will only be these four, all others will be at the outside points, no other reinforcements will come.
All are maxed out, and kill very fast. They are all keyboard strafing, and using the mouse to aim.
What kind of squad/ tactics would be most effective in beating this? Let's assume there is no harassment from enemy ADS's, no Tanks, and no Orbitals for the time being. What setup is the most efficient in taking this out?
I'd appreciate the thoughts of those out there who are tacticians, and/or have beat this/many PC's already.
I'm trying to learn how to be a more effective squad leader, so I would be grateful to hear the advice from you out there who have no problems facing this.
Thank you. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
70
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Posted - 2014.04.28 04:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
As someone who actually uses a KB/M setup for DUST, I can tell you straight up that any halfway competent DS3 player will be able to whip any of those builds so named in a 1v1.
So all you need are some acceptable skill level DS3 players with solid proto-grade fits to wipe those 4 guys off the map.
And I would like to finally add something: KB/M strafing is not inherently superior to DS3 strafing. In fact, it's actually worse, as the vastly more effective circle strafe techniques are incredibly difficult to duplicate on a keyboard, and nearly impossible to track with a mouse (I speak from experience, BTW).
Keyboard strafing has only one advantage, that being a minutely faster difference in the ability to change direction. The ability of a DS3 user to efficiently and easily circle strafe far outweighs any marginal increase in direction change on a simple side-to-side strafe.
Finally, mouse aiming in DUST is pretty terrible by comparison to most games which use a mouse input. There are times where I feel as if I am actually fighting with the controls to do what I want as an infantry player. Hopping into a tank means painfully slow turret traverse speeds, and the KB/M scheme for dropships is just rather convoluted in general- and don't even get me started on the temperamental nature of the equipment/vehicle module select wheel(s). |
Medical Crash
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
314
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Posted - 2014.04.28 04:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Templar 514 wrote:As someone who actually uses a KB/M setup for DUST, I can tell you straight up that any halfway competent DS3 player will be able to whip any of those builds so named in a 1v1.
So all you need are some acceptable skill level DS3 players with solid proto-grade fits to wipe those 4 guys off the map.
And I would like to finally add something: KB/M strafing is not inherently superior to DS3 strafing. In fact, it's actually worse, as the vastly more effective circle strafe techniques are incredibly difficult to duplicate on a keyboard, and nearly impossible to track with a mouse (I speak from experience, BTW).
Keyboard strafing has only one advantage, that being a minutely faster difference in the ability to change direction. The ability of a DS3 user to efficiently and easily circle strafe far outweighs any marginal increase in direction change on a simple side-to-side strafe.
Finally, mouse aiming in DUST is pretty terrible by comparison to most games which use a mouse input. There are times where I feel as if I am actually fighting with the controls to do what I want as an infantry player. Hopping into a tank means painfully slow turret traverse speeds, and the KB/M scheme for dropships is just rather convoluted in general- and don't even get me started on the temperamental nature of the equipment/vehicle module select wheel(s). When players strafe too much, AA gets disabled, putting you in manual aiming. I don't know what is up with DUSTs aiming, but I can't keep my reticule on enemies when this happens. Even with AA off in any other game, I don't have this problem, only in DUST. The bad aiming system is driving me crazy. I was watching Funkwhales streams, and he had no problems staying on track, so I figured something must be wrong. |
Blake Kingston
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
197
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Posted - 2014.04.28 04:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'll wait on a test on the kb/m vs ds3 thing.
I know if I had to use a ds3 to use windows, I would take twice as long to click on an icon than with a mouse.
On topic, are we allowed to have a sniper for harassment - snipers are not just about killing. They are about making people stay more indoors and softening them up. Restricted movement tends to start to screw over a group.
I'm not saying that's the entire solution. I'm saying it's a start.
Next you might want a tank parked at one end - these bastards tend to make enemies atleast pause in their 'pop out and hose everyone' tactics. So clones can move in leap frog style to the nearest opening then zerg. |
Ermac Vesely
0uter.Heaven Academy
55
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Posted - 2014.04.28 04:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
After that is out can we now concentrate on the "How" to get rid of them okay. First try to focus on the logi and the heavys because they are the main defense line here and need to be gone because those guys will rip your poor squad a new one when they even attempt to get to one of the points.
You need to try and seperate the logi from his partners because he will stick to them like a nail in a wall. Send in a fast moving scout either with a shotgun or remotes who turns that walking swiss army knive into a corpse.
When that is done get 2 or 3 long range units in there to harass the heavys and get's them to leave the position. After that can one or two more units go to the point who will assist the Scout both of them will engage the cal assault the reinforcements from the front while the scout comes from behind.
The cal assault who will stay in range from his target get's shoot in the back by the scout and when that isn't enough comes in the advancing unit and ends the job.
The heavys will now try to get back but the harassers either lead them out too far to reach the point in time or they are dead already. One of the two on the point will now hack it while the other defends the hacker, because the logi will spawn at this point and maybe even the assault if he get's a low timer.
If they can defend the hack is the point save for now, but this is only a scenario the execution of this plan could go extremly different and you need to be flexible enough to respond to these changes as the SL. |
Medical Crash
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
315
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Posted - 2014.04.28 05:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Blake Kingston wrote:I'll wait on a test on the kb/m vs ds3 thing.
I know if I had to use a ds3 to use windows, I would take twice as long to click on an icon than with a mouse.
On topic, are we allowed to have a sniper for harassment - snipers are not just about killing. They are about making people stay more indoors and softening them up. Restricted movement tends to start to screw over a group.
I'm not saying that's the entire solution. I'm saying it's a start.
Next you might want a tank parked at one end - these bastards tend to make enemies atleast pause in their 'pop out and hose everyone' tactics. So clones can move in leap frog style to the nearest opening then zerg. Yes, you can use any unit/tactic to defeat this scenario as you please. I was just trying to see what the most effective way would be. I didn't think Sniping would help much, but I see I could be wrong. Does Sniping have a place in PC? Is it used much? |
Syeven Reed
G0DS AM0NG MEN Dirt Nap Squad.
522
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Posted - 2014.04.28 08:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dampened cloaked scout, lay a trap with remotes and go boom! No chance of needles and can be achieved with a single scout if their good enough.
Gÿé Syeven 514
Application for CPM1
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Templar 514
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
70
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Posted - 2014.04.28 13:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Medical Crash wrote:When players strafe too much, AA gets disabled, putting you in manual aiming. I don't know what is up with DUSTs aiming, but I can't keep my reticule on enemies when this happens. Even with AA off in any other game, I don't have this problem, only in DUST. The bad aiming system is driving me crazy. I was watching Funkwhales streams, and he had no problems staying on track, so I figured something must be wrong.
And circle strafing with a DS3 is the best way to do that. I use a KB/M and I am unable to track someone who's circle strafing on a DS3. That slightly faster "swap" speed between directions on a keyboard is simply unable to give a superior advantage like DS3 circle strafing. It's also an absolute nightmare trying to track people at <5m using a mouse.
I'll certainly allow that DS3 aiming is probably bad, but KB/M controls are far and away worse off. There's a handful of weapons that probably due function better on the KB/M because of precision advantages, but most of the time DS3 AA simply works better.
Quote:*stuff about BF3 stats*
I see no relevance in your BF3 stats using a slug shotgun. DUST is a fundamentally different style of game- it's a lot less twitch and a lot more track. |
Medical Crash
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
318
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Templar, Slugs are relevant. They require you to aim before every shot, and you have less than a second to get your aiming right- or your enemies kill you.
I pointed that out, because if I can be accurate with that-one of THE hardest setups to get used to, then I shouldn't be having problems on DUST. |
Medical Crash
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
318
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 20:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ok, so it's like I thought, that Logi MUST be taken out first, can't get around that. So priority targets would be the Assault and the Logi.
So, if I only have 4 people to fight this then would this squad work?
(1)Minmatar Logi Bricked-Highest HP possible-Six Kin Combat Rifle Prof. 5-(X) Core Rep tool,(X) Creo Scanner, (X)FW 100% Needle, FW Nanohives (X)
(2)Proto Amarr Heavy- Highest HP equipped- HIghest HMG equipped-
(3) Caldari Scout- Remote Explosives?-Cloak-Unsure of most effective fit
(4) Gal/Cal. Scout-Ammo or Remote Explosives?-Cloak--Unsure of most effective fit
Lets assume, Dampning isn't really needed, the enemies are scanning. but they are using weak scanners, so our Scouts won't need any extra Dampners.
-Heavy and Logi bait enemies, and grab their attention.
-Scouts 1 and 2 move in from 2 different passages from the enemies flanks, and take out Logi and Assault IF possible, number 1 priority being that Logi.
-Heavies have NO repper at this point
Scouts engage Heavies, and withdraw if Heavies cause them too much damage. My Logi+ Heavy move in to finsh of the weakened Heavies. 1 Scout hacks, Logi maintains scans, Scouts, "Scout" the perimeter. Point taken......
I think 1 guy only using Active Scanners is needed if there are 2 squads in the city. So, I'd have a Proto Gallente with 5 Complex Dampners( 20.49 db, will dodge enemy Gal Logi FLux and all other Active Scanners except the Duvolle, Cal Scout would need 3? Precision Enhancers to see me)
Gal Logi does not engage in enemy combat of any kind, his job is to maintain intel on the city. He needs to have all Complex Dampners on, and must be hidden close, but not to close to one of the objectives. He'll have 2 Duvolle Focused Scanners, and 2 Creo Flux Scanners. If you are found, you MUST find a new hiding place, evade evade evade. Have teammates stay the hell away from you even if they are dampened, you do NOT want any attention drawn towards you. |
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Quil Evrything
Triple Terrors
1334
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Medical Crash wrote:Ok, so it's like I thought, that Logi MUST be taken out first, can't get around that.
Sure you can. it just depends on what you have available to you.
Depending on how many people you have in squad, and whether you have coms, you could do:
* dropship arial assault * Mass Driver blitzkrieg * grenade spam
The main thing is to take out the heavies with explody stuff, then they cant be revived. 4 simultaneous core locus grenades, anyone? |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
70
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 23:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Medical Crash wrote:Templar, Slugs are relevant. They require you to aim before every shot, and you have less than a second to get your aiming right- or your enemies kill you.
I pointed that out, because if I can be accurate with that-one of THE hardest setups to get used to, then I shouldn't be having problems on DUST.
My problem with you saying "I'm amazing with BF3 slugs and no AA, I should be amazing in DUST by default" is that it's an intrinsically flawed premise. BF3 is very much a twitch shooter, and DUST is, especially at present, very much not.
Moreover, KB/M controls in DUST have never reigned supreme. Even at the heyday of KB/M (the open beta Chromosome build), the best players all used a DualShock 3 controller. And Chrome's KB/M was pretty nearly raw input, and Chrome DS3 didn't have AA. At present, there's only 2 things that a mouse beats a DS3 for: sniping, and to a much lesser degree, forge gunning.
With sniping, it's all about precision, and a mouse provides slightly better precision than a DS3. Of course, nobody complains about this because most sensible people agree that the sniper rifles are all rather UP. Nobody complains about KB/M forgers because it's obviously not that big of a problem- it's rare to find rooftop forgers these days, and even more so rooftop forgers capable of blapping infantry off the map.
With everything else, even without aim assist, the DS3 is simply superior. It's got tighter controls that are overall more responsive. There is, quite literally, only two reasons I have not switched to a DS3 to remain competitive- 1) I tried and simply sucked worse than using KB/M, and 2) I'm incredibly stubborn about using my horribly gimped KB/M controls because it's what I'm comfortable with and a major reason I decided to actually get into DUST in the first place.
I want to be clear- I'm not saying that if you have good skills in one game, they shouldn't transfer whatsoever even if it's the same genre of game. What I am saying is that good aim in a twitch shooter doesn't entirely transfer to a tracking shooter.
Further, any problems with DS3 controls should not be addressed as "the other guy is using a KB/M, waah". It should be addressed as "hey CCP, DS3 controls suck, fix it please". Do you see me complaining that I, as a KB/M user, die solely because the other guy is using a DS3 with AA on? That would be a solid no. I'll admit that I think that that happens around 30-40% of the time in pubs, but I'll also admit that the DS3 is the preferred input for DUST simply because that's what comes in the box with a Playstation 3.
As for your actual question, I'd contend that a combination of scout players with shotguns, nova knives, or remotes along with some logi/heavy/assault/commando support would be a good start. Killing the logi first would be tactically sound, but eliminating the heavies with splash damage weapons is also sound. A bunch of flux grenades followed by a mass driver (or even plascan) barrage would be an effective way to kill the CalSalt, and probably the logi as well. At that point the heavies are easy pickings. |
Medical Crash
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
318
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
What about Contact Grenade Spam? Is this still used in PC? Would need Large Nanite Nanohives of course. |
Mike De Luca
Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2014.04.29 02:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
1 high hp anything (preferably min commando) with a md attacks first to draw attention 1 Scout goes in the rear with re's n a shotgun, takes out logi in confusion n lays re's in a straight line spread out for most range min mando withdraws as an hmg heavy starts to hit them from the rear re's go boom as whatever has survived passes over them at that point tactics won't matter, probably only the assault left not the best but it should work....also assuming indoors in a city, outdoors with open air air above it, just 1 halfway decent ads can handle it
If we get a new matchmaker, it needs to be named Fiona, so we can all start singing Scotty doesn't know every match.
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akira 1999
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
57
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
4 sentinels 2 proto logi Minnie with dual beam repper.
out dps the enemy is the most brutal and to the point way of dealing with that.
and the noise of 4 assault HMG's ripping into everything is quite nice.
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Horizen Kenpachi
Forsaken Immortals Top Men.
351
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Posted - 2014.05.02 08:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Make em chase a scout with res and a shottys easy kills
Hit me with your nerf bat.
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Megaman Trigger
Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy
88
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Posted - 2014.05.03 11:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
The quickest choice would be an ADS if the enemy lack AV in the city. However, a Rail Tank/Turret outside the city would prevent this.
If you're going into the city and taking them on on foot; 2 brick-tanked Proto Gallente Heavies with HMG, 2 Min Logis with Core Focued, Flux Grenades and Scanners, 1 cloaked Min Scout with Flux, Shotgun and REs, 1 Assault with Assault CR or Mass Driver and a Triage Rep Tool.
Madness, I know, but hear me out.
The first Heavy pushes in being duel repped, drawing the attention of the other Heavies and tanking damage as much as possible. This gives the Scout and Assault the chance to slip on from another direction and Shotgun the Logi or Cal Assault. If the Logi and Heavies are clumped together, then an RE would work very well.
The first Heavy pulls back and switches out for the second Heavy, resuming the push, while the first is repped up Triage Nano Hives. By then the Scout should hopefully have taken out the two support units, leaving the enemy Heavies cut off. While ally Heavies and Assault mop up, the Scout clears the point of REs and then hacks, cutting off reinforcements.
Most people will see a duel repped Heavy as being the main push, not the diversion.
Purifier. First Class.
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CUSE TOWN333
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
549
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Posted - 2014.05.17 16:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Medical Crash wrote:Lets say this is a PC battle, there being a city, and in the city there are two points out of a total of five.
The enemy team Has 2 Very High HP Heavies, 1 High HP Logi, and 1 High HP very fast strafing Caldari Assault guarding one of the points. Lets assume it will only be these four, all others will be at the outside points, no other reinforcements will come.
All are maxed out, and kill very fast. They are all keyboard strafing, and using the mouse to aim.
What kind of squad/ tactics would be most effective in beating this? Let's assume there is no harassment from enemy ADS's, no Tanks, and no Orbitals for the time being. What setup is the most efficient in taking this out?
I'd appreciate the thoughts of those out there who are tacticians, and/or have beat this/many PC's already.
I'm trying to learn how to be a more effective squad leader, so I would be grateful to hear the advice from you out there who have no problems facing this.
Thank you. fight fire with fire meaning use the same squad set up. also run a scout in there with remotes.
The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
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KILLER 20965
The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance
13
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Posted - 2014.05.21 15:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Medical Crash wrote:Ok, so it's like I thought, that Logi MUST be taken out first, can't get around that. So priority targets would be the Assault and the Logi.
So, if I only have 4 people to fight this then would this squad work?
(1)Minmatar Logi Bricked-Highest HP possible-Six Kin Combat Rifle Prof. 5-(X) Core Rep tool,(X) Creo Scanner, (X)FW 100% Needle, FW Nanohives (X)
(2)Proto Amarr Heavy- Highest HP equipped- HIghest HMG equipped-
(3) Caldari Scout- Remote Explosives?-Cloak-Unsure of most effective fit
(4) Gal/Cal. Scout-Ammo or Remote Explosives?-Cloak--Unsure of most effective fit
Not the smartest idea using a core repair tool with only one heavy. I suggest either the Core focused or the Six-kin triage.
In order of repair rate. Core focused rep- 156.25 a second, one person= total heal 156.25 a second on one person Core rep.- 87.5 a second, two people= total heal 175 a second spit between two people (The Lai Dai Flux repair tool has the same repair rate as the core repair tool, yet it has more range than the core) Six-kin triage rep.- 110 a second, two people= total heal 220 a second split between two people Boundless rep.- 112.5 a second, two people= total heal 225 a second split between two people
I am an O.C.D. logi
Stabby, stabby, stab, stab, stab
I once owned a district.
I play BF4
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Medical Crash
Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire
348
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Posted - 2014.05.22 01:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
KILLER 20965 wrote:Medical Crash wrote:Ok, so it's like I thought, that Logi MUST be taken out first, can't get around that. So priority targets would be the Assault and the Logi.
So, if I only have 4 people to fight this then would this squad work?
(1)Minmatar Logi Bricked-Highest HP possible-Six Kin Combat Rifle Prof. 5-(X) Core Rep tool,(X) Creo Scanner, (X)FW 100% Needle, FW Nanohives (X)
(2)Proto Amarr Heavy- Highest HP equipped- HIghest HMG equipped-
(3) Caldari Scout- Remote Explosives?-Cloak-Unsure of most effective fit
(4) Gal/Cal. Scout-Ammo or Remote Explosives?-Cloak--Unsure of most effective fit Not the smartest idea using a core repair tool with only one heavy. I suggest either the Core focused or the Six-kin triage. In order of repair rate. Core focused rep- 156.25 a second, one person= total heal 156.25 a second on one person Core rep.- 87.5 a second, two people= total heal 175 a second spit between two people (The Lai Dai Flux repair tool has the same repair rate as the core repair tool, yet it has more range than the core) Six-kin triage rep.- 110 a second, two people= total heal 220 a second split between two people Boundless rep.- 112.5 a second, two people= total heal 225 a second split between two people I am an O.C.D. logi No sh!t sherlock, that's what I meant, I just didn't spell the entire name of it, why on earth would I use any other rep tool? Christ use your head. |
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TheD1CK
Dead Man's Game
1090
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Posted - 2014.05.24 23:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Templar 514 wrote:As someone who actually uses a KB/M setup for DUST, I can tell you straight up that any halfway competent DS3 player will be able to whip any of those builds so named in a 1v1.
So all you need are some acceptable skill level DS3 players with solid proto-grade fits to wipe those 4 guys off the map.
And I would like to finally add something: KB/M strafing is not inherently superior to DS3 strafing. In fact, it's actually worse, as the vastly more effective circle strafe techniques are incredibly difficult to duplicate on a keyboard, and nearly impossible to track with a mouse (I speak from experience, BTW).
Keyboard strafing has only one advantage, that being a minutely faster difference in the ability to change direction. The ability of a DS3 user to efficiently and easily circle strafe far outweighs any marginal increase in direction change on a simple side-to-side strafe.
Finally, mouse aiming in DUST is pretty terrible by comparison to most games which use a mouse input. There are times where I feel as if I am actually fighting with the controls to do what I want as an infantry player. Hopping into a tank means painfully slow turret traverse speeds, and the KB/M scheme for dropships is just rather convoluted in general- and don't even get me started on the temperamental nature of the equipment/vehicle module select wheel(s).
Most of the issues, bad aiming , crappy equipment wheel, slow turret speed don't worry ds3 suffer here too
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1141
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Posted - 2014.05.28 03:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Medical Crash wrote:Lets say this is a PC battle, there being a city, and in the city there are two points out of a total of five.
The enemy team Has 2 Very High HP Heavies, 1 High HP Logi, and 1 High HP very fast strafing Caldari Assault guarding one of the points. Lets assume it will only be these four, all others will be at the outside points, no other reinforcements will come.
All are maxed out, and kill very fast. They are all keyboard strafing, and using the mouse to aim.
lol at the MKB comments. As others have noted, MKB is not an advantage in this game, and "keyboard strafing" is an urban myth. The more you think this is the reason you get killed by these people, the less likely you will be to ever overcome it. My advise, as a leader, is to put it out of your mind.
Moving past that, my strategy would be as follows:
If they are guarding one of the two city points, you take the other point first, then send someone to set up attack uplinks from two or three directions while clear their uplinks, and then some combination of engage/flank manuvers to take them down.
The cal scout is their eyes, so you get him first with a gal scout. Then you take the logi out, then the two heavies. That's the way to do it, but understand the battlefield rarely goes the way you plan. However, if you've done a good job clearing their uplinks, their spawn points will be limited and you use that to your advantage, box them in, and push/take the point.
Also, depending on which city point they hold, getting someone up high can also provide a tactical advantage, but it depends on the situation and which socket you're playing in the city.
How I would comprise my team depends on the team's relative gungame...
If I had better gun game, I'd get a gal scout, two heavies, and a logi, and just pound them. If I didn't have better gun game, but had better execution, I might try to get them looking one way with a heavy and flank them with a cloaked scouts. If you have neither, you need to outnumber them. Use your numbers to your advantage, and engage/flank.
The above said, please keep in mind it makes no sense to put someone who is a weak heavy but great scout in a heavy suit just because the tactical situation calls for it. I've had much more success just letting players play their assigned roles, so be careful to overly dictate which suit does what when.
Just a few scattered thoughts, hoping to help....Leadfoot |
Leadfoot10
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1141
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Posted - 2014.05.28 04:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
p.s. also listen to Ermac, he knows how to play this game, and his post has lots of great info. I hope you're well, old buddy. :) |
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