DUST Search - "Vehicles are easy mode"

Alpha 443-6732 wrote:

Harpyja wrote:

I hear this quite too often when it comes to balance against vehicles, especially tanks.

Now, I must agree that CCP couldn't have dumbed down vehicles any more than they have already.

However, instead of buffing AV and/or nerfing vehicles (tanks in particular), why not add an extra dimension towards tanking and vehicles in general?

Why not give them capacitors that must be managed carefully? I won't go into any details here because there've been loads of threads discussing capacitors already.

I've heard from some people say that capacitors will make vehicles too hard and unmanageable; I disagree with those people. I think that that must be exactly what we need: adding an extra dimension to think about to make tanks and vehicles in general harder to use (and more rewarding) without buffing/nerfing anything.

What do you all think about this?

They really should've just kept vehicles the way they were before, instead just adjusting modules and AV until they found a sweet spot.

I have a feeling they fucked up so horribly, they won't be able to go back. Though there were some good ideas like the new missiles , small rails and the new shield tanking design, almost everything else other than that is a step down from 1.6 and especially chrome.

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Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1669	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:30:00 - [1] - Quote I hear this quite too often when it comes to balance against vehicles, especially tanks. Now, I must agree that CCP couldn't have dumbed down vehicles any more than they have already. However, instead of buffing AV and/or nerfing vehicles (tanks in particular), why not add an extra dimension towards tanking and vehicles in general? Why not give them capacitors that must be managed carefully? I won't go into any details here because there've been loads of threads discussing capacitors already. I've heard from some people say that capacitors will make vehicles too hard and unmanageable; I disagree with those people. I think that that must be exactly what we need: adding an extra dimension to think about to make tanks and vehicles in general harder to use (and more rewarding) without buffing/nerfing anything. What do you all think about this? "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
P14GU3 The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 601	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:32:00 - [2] - Quote I think reps need nerfed and we are in a good spot. I would love to see cap introduced, but thats anithe overhaul i dont trust ccp to do right. So instead of another-nother round of nerf/buff. Why not just fix reps? Yeah, i run an Amarr logi with a mass driver.. what are YOU going to do about it?
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1289	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:34:00 - [3] - Quote Vehicles are easy mode. Crush them
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1669	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:36:00 - [4] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Vehicles are easy mode. Thank you for your input. It will be greatly used to further enhance this discussion. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2078	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:46:00 - [5] - Quote Told you, we couldn't handle it. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Khan Hun Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:48:00 - [6] - Quote I don't see the point of adding capacitor management to vehicles, if the goal is to make them more balanced... why not just buff AV? That way instead of making vehicles more complex you make an entirely new role and style of play viable. Currently tanks and drop ships are massively overpowered. They cost some isk to run and require SPs and some skill, once you have those one person can dominate an entire game of 24 people, hitting 35-0 or something stupid, while 4-5 people on the other team run around with pitifully underpowered swarm launchers getting blasted by infantry because they don't have a main anti personal weapon or pummelled into the ground by dropship missiles or a tank blaster. Any move to make vehicles more (player) skill based, skill point intensive or more isk expensive, but keeping their dominance and near-immunity to anything but 2-3 people decked out in full proto AV will just make it worse, allowing some people effectively be a one -man-army because they have the isk, skill or SPs to do it. Instead... vehicles need to be balanced to the point even with the skill points invested and a big ISK cost, you still stand a decent chance of getting killed and loosing that vehicle- the same as any infantry role in the game currently.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1669	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:48:00 - [7] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Told you, we couldn't handle it. And who's "we"? I don't believe you can speak for anyone other than yourself. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Alpha 443-6732 0uter.Heaven Academy 481	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:51:00 - [8] - Quote Harpyja wrote: I hear this quite too often when it comes to balance against vehicles, especially tanks. Now, I must agree that CCP couldn't have dumbed down vehicles any more than they have already. However, instead of buffing AV and/or nerfing vehicles (tanks in particular), why not add an extra dimension towards tanking and vehicles in general? Why not give them capacitors that must be managed carefully? I won't go into any details here because there've been loads of threads discussing capacitors already. I've heard from some people say that capacitors will make vehicles too hard and unmanageable; I disagree with those people. I think that that must be exactly what we need: adding an extra dimension to think about to make tanks and vehicles in general harder to use (and more rewarding) without buffing/nerfing anything. What do you all think about this? They really should've just kept vehicles the way they were before, instead just adjusting modules and AV until they found a sweet spot. I have a feeling they fucked up so horribly, they won't be able to go back. Though there were some good ideas like the new missiles , small rails and the new shield tanking design, almost everything else other than that is a step down from 1.6 and especially chrome.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2080	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:53:00 - [9] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Harpyja wrote: I hear this quite too often when it comes to balance against vehicles, especially tanks. Now, I must agree that CCP couldn't have dumbed down vehicles any more than they have already. However, instead of buffing AV and/or nerfing vehicles (tanks in particular), why not add an extra dimension towards tanking and vehicles in general? Why not give them capacitors that must be managed carefully? I won't go into any details here because there've been loads of threads discussing capacitors already. I've heard from some people say that capacitors will make vehicles too hard and unmanageable; I disagree with those people. I think that that must be exactly what we need: adding an extra dimension to think about to make tanks and vehicles in general harder to use (and more rewarding) without buffing/nerfing anything. What do you all think about this? They really should've just kept vehicles the way they were before, instead just adjusting modules and AV until they found a sweet spot. I have a feeling they fucked up so horribly, they won't be able to go back. Though there were some good ideas like the new missiles , small rails and the new shield tanking design, almost everything else other than that is a step down from 1.6 and especially chrome. My point in making this, well, as well as adding **** too click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1673	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:55:00 - [10] - Quote Khan Hun wrote: I don't see the point of adding capacitor management to vehicles, if the goal is to make them more balanced... why not just buff AV? That way instead of making vehicles more complex you make an entirely new role and style of play viable. Currently tanks and drop ships are massively overpowered. They cost some isk to run and require SPs and some skill, once you have those one person can dominate an entire game of 24 people, hitting 35-0 or something stupid, while 4-5 people on the other team run around with pitifully underpowered swarm launchers getting blasted by infantry because they don't have a main anti personal weapon or pummelled into the ground by dropship missiles or a tank blaster. Any move to make vehicles more (player) skill based, skill point intensive or more isk expensive, but keeping their dominance and near-immunity to anything but 2-3 people decked out in full proto AV will just make it worse, allowing some people effectively be a one -man-army because they have the isk, skill or SPs to do it. Instead... vehicles need to be balanced to the point even with the skill points invested and a big ISK cost, you still stand a decent chance of getting killed and loosing that vehicle- the same as any infantry role in the game currently. The point of capacitor management is to require more personal skill to be at play than just ISK or SP (though currently you need almost none of either for a rather decent militia fit Soma/Sica). Of course there will always be those "one man armies." Even if a game is fully balanced, there will always be a small minority that are exceptionally well with a certain weapon or "loadout". I think it's perfectly acceptable to have a small minority that is exceptionally well with something. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 13152	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:58:00 - [11] - Quote My wallet disagrees :/ My Music Videos & Fan Fiction Incubus, Gallente Proud
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Vanguard of the Phoenix 560	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:03:00 - [12] - Quote spend 80k+, get invulnerability to 75% of all weapons in dust. Yep, that is easy mode. "We are not ever going to respec weaponry and dropsuit command because the majority of our Aurum gear falls within those
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Galactic Skyfleet Empire 69	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:04:00 - [13] - Quote I'd rather that we just tier vehicles with AV. Neither AV or vehicles will be balanced when there is only one tier of vehicles, and three of AV. There can never be an equilibrium... OR We can remove tiers completely, and follow the Eve system, which uses Basic, Tier 1, and Tier 2 assets. Others have suggested we do this with infantry, which holds promise of greater promise than Basic, STD, ADV, and PRO. You can argue that vehicles are already tiered with modules being tiered, but that just doesn't work. The vehicles itself can never perform better than another tank or militia, and never better against AV. The "waves of opportunity" philosophy doesn't work, it sounds nice in balance, but in practice has not worked, and is ineffective. With only one tier of vehicles, they either have to be excessively overpowered, or excessively underpowered. There isn't a magical way to achieve balance when one side or the other has to be gimped. I hate the performance of my Incubus, but if this is only the STD varient of it, then I'm fine with that. But it would need to be cheaper. At most 250,000isk.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3490	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:08:00 - [14] - Quote You mean this hard mode? Part 1: Engineering & Capacitors Part 2: Armor & Shield Part 3: Modules & Skills Part 4: Vehicles Part 5: Overview
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2045	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:08:00 - [15] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: I think reps need nerfed and we are in a good spot. That boils down to "I can't solo tanks with my ADV AV so make them rep slower so it's easier for me." That's the entirety of the argument. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Khan Hun Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:08:00 - [16] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Of course there will always be those "one man armies." Even if a game is fully balanced, there will always be a small minority that are exceptionally well with a certain weapon or "loadout". I think it's perfectly acceptable to have a small minority that is exceptionally well with something. It depends on the load out or 'thing', as things stand more and more people are and will continue to skill into tanks and assault drop ships because of how amazingly good they are. Eventually games will start and everyone will spam calling in their 'win wagon' of choice until the cap is reached for each team. On the other hand, people that are one man armies on the score board playing as infantry are mostly part of a squad, they are often heavy and logi combos, tough as hell and with big scores. 1) They are working as a team 2) A war barge strike, set of REs or couple of good head shots will still kill them. The only realistic counter to the one man army assault drop ship is, well I don't know. Nothing I can use and I have 25million SPs. I've played 4 games today, 2 of those games were completely dominated by assault drop ships. One person almost single handedly winning the game for their team. When was the last time a full proto AV infantry player was a 'one man army' and laid waste to and stopped all the vehicles on the other team being effective...
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 13152	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:10:00 - [17] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: spend 80k+, get invulnerability to 75% of all weapons in dust. Yep, that is easy mode. Spend 500k+, get vulnerability to buildings, gravity, MCCs, MCC Missiles, null cannons, RDVs, rail guns, suicide derps, etc etc My Music Videos & Fan Fiction Incubus, Gallente Proud
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2046	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:11:00 - [18] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: I'd rather that we just tier vehicles with AV. Neither AV or vehicles will be balanced when there is only one tier of vehicles, and three of AV. There can never be an equilibrium... OR We can remove tiers completely, and follow the Eve system, which uses Basic, Tier 1, and Tier 2 assets. Others have suggested we do this with infantry, which holds promise of greater promise than Basic, STD, ADV, and PRO. You can argue that vehicles are already tiered with modules being tiered, but that just doesn't work. The vehicles itself can never perform better than another tank or militia, and never better against AV. The "waves of opportunity" philosophy doesn't work, it sounds nice in balance, but in practice has not worked, and is ineffective. With only one tier of vehicles, they either have to be excessively overpowered, or excessively underpowered. There isn't a magical way to achieve balance when one side or the other has to be gimped. I hate the performance of my Incubus, but if this is only the STD varient of it, then I'm fine with that. But it would need to be cheaper. At most 250,000isk. What? That thing can fly circles around a Viper and Myron. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Vanguard of the Phoenix 560	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:33:00 - [19] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: spend 80k+, get invulnerability to 75% of all weapons in dust. Yep, that is easy mode. Spend 500k+, get vulnerability to buildings, gravity, MCCs, MCC Missiles, null cannons, RDVs, rail guns, suicide derps, etc etc LOL, so are we really going to list the things that we are invulnerable to? Because if so you are going to lose by a landslide. I swear tankers are about the dumbest people to ever walk the earth. "We are not ever going to respec weaponry and dropsuit command because the majority of our Aurum gear falls within those
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1461	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:15:00 - [20] - Quote Because my passive tanked Python will get infinite afterburners! I approve this! Me in my ADS: 1,2

Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 75	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:23:00 - [21] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: spend 80k+, get invulnerability to 75% of all weapons in dust. Yep, that is easy mode. Spend 500k+, get vulnerability to buildings, gravity, MCCs, MCC Missiles, null cannons, RDVs, rail guns, suicide derps, etc etc ISK cost should not be a substitute for player skill. Just because one player spends 500k+ should not mean that it should take a quarter of the other team's players to take him out. If it only takes one player to operate a vehicle, then one player should be at least CAPABLE of destroying that vehicle. Otherwise, you throw game balance out the window and might as well just hand the win to whoever's wearing the most expensive suit.
Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 75	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:29:00 - [22] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: P14GU3 wrote: I think reps need nerfed and we are in a good spot. That boils down to "I can't solo tanks with my ADV AV so make them rep slower so it's easier for me." That's the entirety of the argument. Not entirely, unless you add "... vesus I don't want my easy mode taken away, because I lack the skill to succeed in a fair fight" There are two sides to every argument, after all.
Sad Heavy Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 77	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:30:00 - [23] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: spend 80k+, get invulnerability to 75% of all weapons in dust. Yep, that is easy mode. Spend 500k+, get vulnerability to buildings, gravity, MCCs, MCC Missiles, null cannons, RDVs, rail guns, suicide derps, etc etc LOL, so are we really going to list the things that we are invulnerable to? Because if so you are going to lose by a landslide. I swear tankers are about the dumbest people to ever walk the earth. DUST Fiend is an Incubus pilot Scrubby Python Pilot, Corp Chat Troll, Elite Scrub, Caldari Loyalist
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Vanguard of the Phoenix 560	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:31:00 - [24] - Quote Sad Heavy wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: spend 80k+, get invulnerability to 75% of all weapons in dust. Yep, that is easy mode. Spend 500k+, get vulnerability to buildings, gravity, MCCs, MCC Missiles, null cannons, RDVs, rail guns, suicide derps, etc etc LOL, so are we really going to list the things that we are invulnerable to? Because if so you are going to lose by a landslide. I swear tankers are about the dumbest people to ever walk the earth. DUST Fiend is an Incubus pilot That doesn't make what he is saying any less ********. "We are not ever going to respec weaponry and dropsuit command because the majority of our Aurum gear falls within those
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2642	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:37:00 - [25] - Quote Don't worry guys, CCP is on the case. Cap management will therefore play a vital role in the new game just as it does in the old.
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 493	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:39:00 - [26] - Quote Khan Hun wrote: [quote=Harpyja] Of course there will always be those "one man armies." Even if a game is fully balanced, there will always be a small minority that are exceptionally well with a certain weapon or "loadout". I think it's perfectly acceptable to have a small minority that is exceptionally well with something. 2) A war barge strike, set of REs right and more that takes soooo much more skill than vehicles do u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll. forum warrior .189
Thumb Green The Valyrian Guard 991	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:41:00 - [27] - Quote Nothing in this game takes skill and adding capacitors to vehicles won't change that. All people will do is pull back when it starts to get low. Support Orbital Spawns
Sad Heavy Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 77	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:43:00 - [28] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: Sad Heavy wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: spend 80k+, get invulnerability to 75% of all weapons in dust. Yep, that is easy mode. Spend 500k+, get vulnerability to buildings, gravity, MCCs, MCC Missiles, null cannons, RDVs, rail guns, suicide derps, etc etc LOL, so are we really going to list the things that we are invulnerable to? Because if so you are going to lose by a landslide. I swear tankers are about the dumbest people to ever walk the earth. DUST Fiend is an Incubus pilot That doesn't make what he is saying any less ********. How so, his statement is quite accurate. Have you ever just repeatedly flown an ADS? Scrubby Python Pilot, Corp Chat Troll, Elite Scrub, Caldari Loyalist
Sad Heavy Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 77	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:44:00 - [29] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Nothing in this game takes skill and adding capacitors to vehicles won't change that. All people will do is pull back when it starts to get low. Nothing takes skill? Have you tried to master flight? Scrubby Python Pilot, Corp Chat Troll, Elite Scrub, Caldari Loyalist
Thumb Green The Valyrian Guard 991	Posted - 2014.04.27 17:50:00 - [30] - Quote Sad Heavy wrote: Thumb Green wrote: Nothing in this game takes skill and adding capacitors to vehicles won't change that. All people will do is pull back when it starts to get low. Nothing takes skill? Have you tried to master flight? Yes, I've done everything this game offers. Support Orbital Spawns



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