At first, I was worried where this thread would be going.

By the end of the OP, it seemed reasonable enough.

+1

without the cloak, scouts are still much better than previous builds

You do not need a cloak to scout. There are many functions of a scout, and the cloak is only a part of some of them. While you fight your way through the ranks, you'll go from starter scout fits to much more elaborate and specialized fits as your skills allow. None of this is possible without your core skills maxed out. Especially for the minmatar scout, the hardest to fit.

In eve, trial accounts can't train cloaking, and in a F2P game like dust- the staggering SP investment is that barrier.

I highly disagree with the "you don't need a cloak to be a Scout." I think it is erroneous to say "cloaks are just a bonus for Scouts" when the entire suit has been completely redesigned with cloaks in mind. The first is the obvious 15% reduction per level as the blanket Role bonus. That isn't a "if you use a Rail Rifle as a Caldari Assault, you reload faster" nudge for players to use a certain weapon,; that is a signal flare shot into the dark of night that spells out "USE CLOAKS!" The fact that an entire equipment slot was added at the same time as cloaks lends to the notion that one was designed for the other.

I'd like to see the scout role bonus completely removed from cloaks. Having our role bonus completely associated with just one piece of equipment is far too narrow a focus to put on us and is completely irrelevant to fittings that don't make use of the cloak.

All scouts should just innately get a 75% reduction to cloak fitting no matter the suit or skill level, then the bonus can be made to something that would be useful to ALL scouts, not just those that make use of the cloak.

cloak starter fit

also heavy starter fit

/thread

I am not talking about any possible balance issue with Cloak or the Scout itself. I am merely talking about the bonus and the incredible unfairness it has to people that want to try it out. Please do not devolve this thread into Scout balance discussion.

So Cloaks and Scout changes are out. Cloaks are obviously meant to be used by Scouts. The incredibly high CPU/PG requirements are offset by the 15% reduction in fitting per level of Scout. Per level of Scout you save:

Basic Cloak: 24 CPU, 5.25 PG
Advanced Cloak: 34.65, 6.9 PG
Prototype Cloak: 49.5 CPU, 10.5 PG

Going with my love of the Caldari:
Basic: 174 / 33
Advanced: 224 / 46
Prototype: 348 / 66

So a level 1 Caldari Scout with a Basic Cloak burns 147.9 / 28.05. This means that a base Caldari Scout only has 26.1 / 4.95 free space. That is hardly enough to fit a basic weapon, let alone anything else. At level 5 Caldari Scout, the basic suit would have 130.25 / 24.75 free. It becomes way too prohibitive to try out a Cloak with a fit to see if you actually want to throw points into it to do it well. No other suit basically states "you must be this tall to ride the roller-coaster." If I have a Commando at rank 1, it still works like a Commando at rank 5 just not as well as a rank 5 Commando. In the case of a Scout, it means that you can actually fit it with modules. Not higher level modules, mind you; just to not have stuff be utterly empty.

My suggestion is to change the blanket Scout bonus: "10%% reduction in Cloak CPU/PG fitting cost" but set a Role Bonus for Scouts and Light Frames to add 25% to that reduction. This means instead of 15, 30, 45, 60, 75 reduction it would be 35, 45, 55, 65, 75. This will let people test the waters far easier if they want to be a Scout before throwing in points.

At the moment, it costs 223,880 SP to get X Light Frame to 3 and then X Scout to 1. This is the lowest level to be able to test a Scout + Cloak combo. AUR doesn't help because the fitting requirements of the Cloak. If a 25% base was added to Light Frames and Scouts, you could at least try it before investing nearly a week's worth of SP. It also means that you can help the lower SP Scouts to be able to be a Scout without making the higher SP Scouts more powerful.

Comments and thoughts in regards to the suggestion?

SO far i've seen a Gal Commando, Min Commando, Min Logi M-1, Logistic gk0 using Cloak Fields. If heavies had a equipment slot, i would've seen one by now... So i don't what the issue is... I know you wont like it, but the way i see it... Customization depends on the player ... With a proper use of CPU/PG modules players can fit whatever they'd like.... No need to change things. It'd make spending SP into the Items a waste... Players have spent a good amount of SP into Dropsuits, Modules, Core Skills to use the Item properly... If someone really wants to use it, they can either find the alternative or Grind the SP to get it...

*phew* i almost died until i read this thread and now my belly is full

But what so cloaks provide. Well cloaks provide a easy button or a crutch to bad player, while making good players even better with no drawbacks. Cloaks lower the chance mistakes and bad gameplay/decisions are punished while providing the player with a significant offensive advantage even if their play is terrible and doesn't dictate such a reward. There is low risk, high reward with no drawbacks and it covers a player offensively and defensively. The cloak would therefore help bad players more than good ones, and would have a greater impact on low SP players.

Cloaks lower the skill level, awareness, strategy in pathing, skill to be selective with targets, and map knowledge required to excel. All the things would seem to help a player far more than having a boost to damage. There is also the belief that core skills are more important than weapons and weapon proficiently upgrades, so it would only make sense that a piece of equipment which greatly improves play and is an easy button would close the gap between terrible players and mediocre players who are not using cloaks.

Core skills, for all you noobs out their this why vets scream at you to upgrade your core skills to 5. So guess what I also run a Cal scout and I run proto cr, proto cloak, proto stamina and kincat with 3 complex shield extenders and 1 complex recharger. So guess what that means. I have all my core skills to 5 and this allows me to run all this with no problem. So there is your answer work on your SP, stop trying to go proto to early, and work on your corp skills.

it would be cool to try a cloak before going scout

You can. Which is why I think this thread is a bunch nonsense. 2nd, a cloak is not a requirement barring anyone from playing as a scout it's just another tool that's available.

I've seen almost every suit that can fit a cloak do so. Just saw a Min commando this morning, pretty sure he didn't have any point into scout suits.

Good suggestions. I'd like more information on applied bonuses for basic frames and racial suits. Are you suggesting that skilling into a light frame provides bonuses that are used by the racial tier above?

I see now. Skilling into light frames would hold no bearing on the reduction (a base 25% as you say). Going further into scout skills tree path would be what adds to this fitting reduction, just at a 10% increase per level.

I like this. Now if only basic frames were cheaper than their racial variants.