DUST Search - Changing Scout bonus to benefit lower SP players

Joseph Ridgeson wrote:

Krom Ganesh wrote:

It's fine as is.

The cloak is a tool that aides in stealth. However, even without the cloak, the scout suit is still very capable in remaining undetected thanks to its low scan profile. Our previous bonus was a definite SP gate, but not this one.

Also, running without the cloak is a great way for a new scout to learn how to avoid detection. Relying on the cloak isn't going to get them very far. They need to learn how to play and think like a stealth character before getting the shiny gadget that makes it easier (if used properly).

Allow me to flip the idea on it's head as a sort of analogy. What if Light Weapons cost 6 or 7 times as much to fit and the Light Weapon reduction was tripled for Assaults. Note that I mean no disrespect.

"Light Weapons are a tool that aides in killing. However, even without light weapons, the assault suit is still very capable of killing their enemies thanks to its sidearm. Also, running without a light weapon is a great way for a new assault to learn how to kill people. Relying on the light weapon isn't going to get them very far; they need to learn how to play and think like an assault character before getting the shiny gadget that makes it easier (if used properly)."

You have something that basically says "you are X suit, you use this" but make it so incredibly difficult to use without any kind of heavy skill investment. That doesn't seem fair, does it?

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Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 870	Posted - 2014.03.30 12:42:00 - [1] - Quote I am not talking about any possible balance issue with Cloak or the Scout itself. I am merely talking about the bonus and the incredible unfairness it has to people that want to try it out. Please do not devolve this thread into Scout balance discussion. So Cloaks and Scout changes are out. Cloaks are obviously meant to be used by Scouts. The incredibly high CPU/PG requirements are offset by the 15% reduction in fitting per level of Scout. Per level of Scout you save: Basic Cloak: 24 CPU, 5.25 PG Advanced Cloak: 34.65, 6.9 PG Prototype Cloak: 49.5 CPU, 10.5 PG Going with my love of the Caldari: Basic: 174 / 33 Advanced: 224 / 46 Prototype: 348 / 66 So a level 1 Caldari Scout with a Basic Cloak burns 147.9 / 28.05. This means that a base Caldari Scout only has 26.1 / 4.95 free space. That is hardly enough to fit a basic weapon, let alone anything else. At level 5 Caldari Scout, the basic suit would have 130.25 / 24.75 free. It becomes way too prohibitive to try out a Cloak with a fit to see if you actually want to throw points into it to do it well. No other suit basically states "you must be this tall to ride the roller-coaster." If I have a Commando at rank 1, it still works like a Commando at rank 5 just not as well as a rank 5 Commando. In the case of a Scout, it means that you can actually fit it with modules. Not higher level modules, mind you; just to not have stuff be utterly empty. My suggestion is to change the blanket Scout bonus: "10%% reduction in Cloak CPU/PG fitting cost" but set a Role Bonus for Scouts and Light Frames to add 25% to that reduction. This means instead of 15, 30, 45, 60, 75 reduction it would be 35, 45, 55, 65, 75. This will let people test the waters far easier if they want to be a Scout before throwing in points. At the moment, it costs 223,880 SP to get X Light Frame to 3 and then X Scout to 1. This is the lowest level to be able to test a Scout + Cloak combo. AUR doesn't help because the fitting requirements of the Cloak. If a 25% base was added to Light Frames and Scouts, you could at least try it before investing nearly a week's worth of SP. It also means that you can help the lower SP Scouts to be able to be a Scout without making the higher SP Scouts more powerful. Comments and thoughts in regards to the suggestion? "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Patrick57 Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 6412	Posted - 2014.03.30 12:59:00 - [2] - Quote hm
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3731	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:04:00 - [3] - Quote If CCP wanted to limit the use of cloaks to scouts, there are better ways of doing it that don't include witholding what is probably the most important aspect to scout play from anyone without the skill points. I would have rather seen cloaks exclusive to light frames/scouts, than see a major piece of content be inaccessible to the majority of the players. It's needlessly restrictive. No.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4682	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:06:00 - [4] - Quote At first, I was worried where this thread would be going. By the end of the OP, it seemed reasonable enough. +1
BIind Shot Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 87	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:10:00 - [5] - Quote It does create a problem for low level scouts. +1 and he said unto them, "Bring ye all your trolls, that they shall feed".
DEZKA DIABLO Inner.Hell 559	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:24:00 - [6] - Quote Just like everything else, you gotta earn it, no freebies just cuz the cool kids have it, buy a booster Dead trigger master , an ya I do that ISH ON PURPOSE!
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 3820	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:25:00 - [7] - Quote I think its quite unique process. Think about it. A lvl 1 scout can't fit the cloak and that's good. Why? Because the lower SP player needs to learn how to scout first before just going for cloaks. That's why you have guys cloaking and running into battles that shouldn't even be done in a scout suit. It's a small but necessary deterrent to have the player learn what it is to scout. Cause let's just face it, there's a 90 percent chance he doesn't need to test the waters with a cloaking device. He's going to like it regardless. It's like buying your son a Porsche as his first car. Sure you can do it, but he won't appreciate what he has and just abuse it. As opposed to buying him a cheap vehicle so that he may learn how to maintain a car and in order for him to appreciate a better vehicle when the time comes. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2489	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:26:00 - [8] - Quote DEZKA DIABLO wrote: Just like everything else, you gotta earn it, no freebies just cuz the cool kids have it, buy a booster Yeah, it's really unreasonable the way a standard Amarr Logi with the skill to one can fit a drop uplink on his suit. And fitting a main turret on a tank? Pshaw, if newbies could do that it's break the game!! ak.0 4 LYFE CCP GIB LANCE TURRET PLOX LET ME MELEE PEOPLE WITH MY STEED
Yan Darn Science For Death 453	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:27:00 - [9] - Quote It's not a horrible idea or anything (in fact +1) just two points. 1) a lot of bonuses can be kinda 'meh' until you reach level 5 - in that sense, this isn't too different. 2) I really hate the fact our role bonus is so restrictive compared to all the others. I'm one of those who doesn't think the scout role should be defined by cloak (which is the reasoning behind your idea right?). Id rather we explored how to move away from the cloak bonus to something else. The role bonus is unfair to scouts in general I guess I'm saying. If I don't use a cloak I have effectively have no role bonus... On that, Im curious how many long time scouts feel new scouts are best trying to learn the role without cloak anyway? Cloaks assist in remaining stealthy- they don't replace stealth. Saying all that - if I was back to being a 3mil SP character looking to try out scout - I would be annoyed at not seeing any real benefit to my scout bonus until I had it and core other skills at level 4/5. The Ghost of Bravo
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3732	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:28:00 - [10] - Quote DEZKA DIABLO wrote: Just like everything else, you gotta earn it, no freebies just cuz the cool kids have it, buy a booster I can only guess you've never seen the "militia" section of the market. No.

Disturbingly Bored Forum Warfare 2120	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:29:00 - [11] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: I would have rather seen cloaks exclusive to light frames/scouts, than see a major piece of content be inaccessible to the majority of the players. It's needlessly restrictive. Though I'm inclined to agree, EVE has some precedence for something that would accomplish the goal without barring other suits from using cloaks. Give all Scouts a blanket Role Bonus of -75% fitting costs for cloaks. That's how CCP handles it for Stealth Bombers in EVE. And then Assaults/Commandos can still run a gimped cloak fit if they like. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 470	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:40:00 - [12] - Quote It's a no-brainer that the current solution ranks somewhere between terrible, witless and moronic. However I think a blanket ~75% role bonus with no skill modifier would be preferable. That makes it easy to balance the CPU/PG requirements so a non-scout PRO-suit may use a cloak if it tried hard while allowing scouts to to fit it at the cost of a typical piece of equipment of the respective level. [Edit] Ninja'd by Disturbingly Bored. I shall meditate on my defeat.
Scheneighnay McBob Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4564	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:52:00 - [13] - Quote Definitely. Main reason to get a scout skill to level 5 for me was so I can fit a cloak without compromising the fitting. I am your scan error.
Toby Flenderson research lab 424	Posted - 2014.03.30 13:58:00 - [14] - Quote Does anyone else think that fitting a cloak should actually impact the rest of the build in this way? I'm actually very glad not everyone can just pick up a scout suit and put a couple thousand SP into cloaks lvl 1 and start spamming them. The players that are interested in the scout suits could make good use of using the suit without relying on a cloak before earning the full CPU/PG reduction.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 417	Posted - 2014.03.30 14:01:00 - [15] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: DEZKA DIABLO wrote: Just like everything else, you gotta earn it, no freebies just cuz the cool kids have it, buy a booster Yeah, it's really unreasonable the way a standard Amarr Logi with the skill to one can fit a drop uplink on his suit. And fitting a main turret on a tank? Pshaw, if newbies could do that it's break the game!! I really do wonder if people even read what is posted in these forums some times. People like this Dezka Diablo I think totally missed the point of this thread. Yea lets not let noobs try out anything. Actually when they start the game lets make it so that they cannot use vehicles AT ALL untill they have SP. No LAVS for you noobs "No Freebies"....... Stupidity on the dust forums as ever....
Scout Registry Nos Nothi 1828	Posted - 2014.03.30 14:22:00 - [16] - Quote Indeed, every Scout's origin involves a uniquely brutal beatdown. As it should remain.
DEZKA DIABLO Inner.Hell 559	Posted - 2014.03.30 14:48:00 - [17] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: DEZKA DIABLO wrote: Just like everything else, you gotta earn it, no freebies just cuz the cool kids have it, buy a booster I can only guess you've never seen the "militia" section of the market. Wuts militia gear? Dead trigger master , an ya I do that ISH ON PURPOSE!
DEZKA DIABLO Inner.Hell 559	Posted - 2014.03.30 14:49:00 - [18] - Quote Scout Registry wrote: Every Scout's origin involves a uniquely brutal beatdown. This is as it should be. Only way to become a scout Dead trigger master , an ya I do that ISH ON PURPOSE!
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 5566	Posted - 2014.03.30 14:51:00 - [19] - Quote Scout Registry wrote: Every Scout's origin involves a uniquely brutal beatdown. This is as it should be. No joke, people often ask me how I make a 2.0+ KDR (as useless as it is in my eyes) in a minmatar scout. My answer: because I had the ever living **** beat out of me when I was starting. It usually just confuses them. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 5 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2596	Posted - 2014.03.30 14:57:00 - [20] - Quote I'd like to see the scout role bonus completely removed from cloaks. Having our role bonus completely associated with just one piece of equipment is far too narrow a focus to put on us and is completely irrelevant to fittings that don't make use of the cloak. All scouts should just innately get a 75% reduction to cloak fitting no matter the suit or skill level, then the bonus can be made to something that would be useful to ALL scouts, not just those that make use of the cloak. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts

Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 5568	Posted - 2014.03.30 15:04:00 - [21] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I'd like to see the scout role bonus completely removed from cloaks. Having our role bonus completely associated with just one piece of equipment is far too narrow a focus to put on us and is completely irrelevant to fittings that don't make use of the cloak. All scouts should just innately get a 75% reduction to cloak fitting no matter the suit or skill level, then the bonus can be made to something that would be useful to ALL scouts, not just those that make use of the cloak. Agreed. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 5 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Krom Ganesh Nos Nothi 1488	Posted - 2014.03.30 15:08:00 - [22] - Quote It's fine as is. The cloak is a tool that aides in stealth. However, even without the cloak, the scout suit is still very capable in remaining undetected thanks to its low scan profile. Our previous bonus was a definite SP gate, but not this one. Also, running without the cloak is a great way for a new scout to learn how to avoid detection. Relying on the cloak isn't going to get them very far. They need to learn how to play and think like a stealth character before getting the shiny gadget that makes it easier (if used properly). @Django I expect scouts to receive additional bonuses to other scout-like equipment in the future (though probably not as high as 75%).
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 890	Posted - 2014.03.30 16:59:00 - [23] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: It's fine as is. The cloak is a tool that aides in stealth. However, even without the cloak, the scout suit is still very capable in remaining undetected thanks to its low scan profile. Our previous bonus was a definite SP gate, but not this one. Also, running without the cloak is a great way for a new scout to learn how to avoid detection. Relying on the cloak isn't going to get them very far. They need to learn how to play and think like a stealth character before getting the shiny gadget that makes it easier (if used properly). Allow me to flip the idea on it's head as a sort of analogy. What if Light Weapons cost 6 or 7 times as much to fit and the Light Weapon reduction was tripled for Assaults. Note that I mean no disrespect. "Light Weapons are a tool that aides in killing. However, even without light weapons, the assault suit is still very capable of killing their enemies thanks to its sidearm. Also, running without a light weapon is a great way for a new assault to learn how to kill people. Relying on the light weapon isn't going to get them very far; they need to learn how to play and think like an assault character before getting the shiny gadget that makes it easier (if used properly)." You have something that basically says "you are X suit, you use this" but make it so incredibly difficult to use without any kind of heavy skill investment. That doesn't seem fair, does it? "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
noobsniper the 2nd POISION ROSES Galactic Skyfleet Empire 356	Posted - 2014.03.30 17:04:00 - [24] - Quote No no no I need more noobs to stomp in my cal scout this cant happen "things are made of stuff"-Bill Nye MAG vet raven ftw Pre 1.8 scout don't throw me in with that rift raft
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 178	Posted - 2014.03.30 17:10:00 - [25] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: If CCP wanted to limit the use of cloaks to scouts, there are better ways of doing it that don't include witholding what is probably the most important aspect to scout play from anyone without the skill points. I would have rather seen cloaks exclusive to light frames/scouts, than see a major piece of content be inaccessible to the majority of the players. It's needlessly restrictive. Yes, cloaks should have been an exclusive release and their CPU/PG cost should not have been the racial bonus. This was ridiculous and makes it impossible for new players to use a cloak.. And what is a cloak but a crutch which helps bad players do well. So you would think that a cloak would help new players become more competitive and therefore should be available to them. Getting into cloaks is low enough SP, but fitting them is impossible. Have cloaks cost their lowest CPU/PG (the lv5 scout cost) and provide, scouts with a new racial bonus. Even though the cloak should not have been included in the game, its a shock that they were not made available to newer players (due to cost of CPU/PG).
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 178	Posted - 2014.03.30 17:21:00 - [26] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Krom Ganesh wrote: It's fine as is. The cloak is a tool that aides in stealth. However, even without the cloak, the scout suit is still very capable in remaining undetected thanks to its low scan profile. Our previous bonus was a definite SP gate, but not this one. Also, running without the cloak is a great way for a new scout to learn how to avoid detection. Relying on the cloak isn't going to get them very far. They need to learn how to play and think like a stealth character before getting the shiny gadget that makes it easier (if used properly). Allow me to flip the idea on it's head as a sort of analogy. What if Light Weapons cost 6 or 7 times as much to fit and the Light Weapon reduction was tripled for Assaults. Note that I mean no disrespect. "Light Weapons are a tool that aides in killing. However, even without light weapons, the assault suit is still very capable of killing their enemies thanks to its sidearm. Also, running without a light weapon is a great way for a new assault to learn how to kill people. Relying on the light weapon isn't going to get them very far; they need to learn how to play and think like an assault character before getting the shiny gadget that makes it easier (if used properly)." You have something that basically says "you are X suit, you use this" but make it so incredibly difficult to use without any kind of heavy skill investment. That doesn't seem fair, does it? The differences between an advanced light weapon and a Proto type light weapon is marginal. I have two very low SP alts and both were able to get lv3 weapons very quickly and i see little differences between lv3 and 5. Sure, the advantage of higher SP players is therefore in the use and experience of the gun but also the 15% damage to shields/armor from the proficiency skill. So there is a significant advantage there. But there is more importance in a cloak because it is a crutch. But what so cloaks provide. Well cloaks provide a easy button or a crutch to bad player, while making good players even better with no drawbacks. Cloaks lower the chance mistakes and bad gameplay/decisions are punished while providing the player with a significant offensive advantage even if their play is terrible and doesn't dictate such a reward. There is low risk, high reward with no drawbacks and it covers a player offensively and defensively. The cloak would therefore help bad players more than good ones, and would have a greater impact on low SP players. Cloaks lower the skill level, awareness, strategy in pathing, skill to be selective with targets, and map knowledge required to excel. All the things would seem to help a player far more than having a boost to damage. There is also the belief that core skills are more important than weapons and weapon proficiently upgrades, so it would only make sense that a piece of equipment which greatly improves play and is an easy button would close the gap between terrible players and mediocre players who are not using cloaks.
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 530	Posted - 2014.03.30 17:55:00 - [27] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: I would have rather seen cloaks exclusive to light frames/scouts, than see a major piece of content be inaccessible to the majority of the players. It's needlessly restrictive. Though I'm inclined to agree, EVE has some precedence for something that would accomplish the goal without barring other suits from using cloaks. Give all Scouts a blanket Role Bonus of -75% fitting costs for cloaks. That's how CCP handles it for Stealth Bombers in EVE. And then Assaults/Commandos can still run a gimped cloak fit if they like. Or we could do what else EVE does and have two seperate types of cloak. The normal cloak field and the Scout cloak. The normal cloak would be a gimped variant, say active for 10/15/20 seconds and takes 30/35/40 seconds to charge. This can be fitted to all suits. The Scout cloak will have the same stats as the current cloaks, but will only be able to be fitted to scout suits. Also, they'll both have significantly less CPU/PG usage than current cloaks as it won't be the balancing factor keeping it beneficial to use on scouts. We want cake and tea.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2085	Posted - 2014.03.30 17:58:00 - [28] - Quote Yes, it does make sense. +1, OP. On my alt I have scout 2 and running cloak would be insane lol
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 867	Posted - 2014.03.30 19:31:00 - [29] - Quote In the last few days I have become much more relevant on the battlefield, not because I can now cloak, but because I learned how to scout without a cloak, before rifle nerfs, and AA reduction. You aren't doing anyone any favors by making it easier on them. You are teaching them to use a crutch. Looking for the scout hangout?
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 593	Posted - 2014.03.30 19:48:00 - [30] - Quote without the cloak, scouts are still much better than previous builds It'll help define roles, i promise:)



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