DUST Search - Changing Scout bonus to benefit lower SP players

All Channels

General Discussions

Changing Scout bonus to benefit lower SP players

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 870	Posted - 2014.03.30 12:42:00 - [1] - Quote I am not talking about any possible balance issue with Cloak or the Scout itself. I am merely talking about the bonus and the incredible unfairness it has to people that want to try it out. Please do not devolve this thread into Scout balance discussion. So Cloaks and Scout changes are out. Cloaks are obviously meant to be used by Scouts. The incredibly high CPU/PG requirements are offset by the 15% reduction in fitting per level of Scout. Per level of Scout you save: Basic Cloak: 24 CPU, 5.25 PG Advanced Cloak: 34.65, 6.9 PG Prototype Cloak: 49.5 CPU, 10.5 PG Going with my love of the Caldari: Basic: 174 / 33 Advanced: 224 / 46 Prototype: 348 / 66 So a level 1 Caldari Scout with a Basic Cloak burns 147.9 / 28.05. This means that a base Caldari Scout only has 26.1 / 4.95 free space. That is hardly enough to fit a basic weapon, let alone anything else. At level 5 Caldari Scout, the basic suit would have 130.25 / 24.75 free. It becomes way too prohibitive to try out a Cloak with a fit to see if you actually want to throw points into it to do it well. No other suit basically states "you must be this tall to ride the roller-coaster." If I have a Commando at rank 1, it still works like a Commando at rank 5 just not as well as a rank 5 Commando. In the case of a Scout, it means that you can actually fit it with modules. Not higher level modules, mind you; just to not have stuff be utterly empty. My suggestion is to change the blanket Scout bonus: "10%% reduction in Cloak CPU/PG fitting cost" but set a Role Bonus for Scouts and Light Frames to add 25% to that reduction. This means instead of 15, 30, 45, 60, 75 reduction it would be 35, 45, 55, 65, 75. This will let people test the waters far easier if they want to be a Scout before throwing in points. At the moment, it costs 223,880 SP to get X Light Frame to 3 and then X Scout to 1. This is the lowest level to be able to test a Scout + Cloak combo. AUR doesn't help because the fitting requirements of the Cloak. If a 25% base was added to Light Frames and Scouts, you could at least try it before investing nearly a week's worth of SP. It also means that you can help the lower SP Scouts to be able to be a Scout without making the higher SP Scouts more powerful. Comments and thoughts in regards to the suggestion? "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 890	Posted - 2014.03.30 16:59:00 - [2] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: It's fine as is. The cloak is a tool that aides in stealth. However, even without the cloak, the scout suit is still very capable in remaining undetected thanks to its low scan profile. Our previous bonus was a definite SP gate, but not this one. Also, running without the cloak is a great way for a new scout to learn how to avoid detection. Relying on the cloak isn't going to get them very far. They need to learn how to play and think like a stealth character before getting the shiny gadget that makes it easier (if used properly). Allow me to flip the idea on it's head as a sort of analogy. What if Light Weapons cost 6 or 7 times as much to fit and the Light Weapon reduction was tripled for Assaults. Note that I mean no disrespect. "Light Weapons are a tool that aides in killing. However, even without light weapons, the assault suit is still very capable of killing their enemies thanks to its sidearm. Also, running without a light weapon is a great way for a new assault to learn how to kill people. Relying on the light weapon isn't going to get them very far; they need to learn how to play and think like an assault character before getting the shiny gadget that makes it easier (if used properly)." You have something that basically says "you are X suit, you use this" but make it so incredibly difficult to use without any kind of heavy skill investment. That doesn't seem fair, does it? "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 900	Posted - 2014.03.30 20:08:00 - [3] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: without the cloak, scouts are still much better than previous builds That isn't the point I am making. The point I am making is that Scouts have been redesigned with cloaks in mind; it is specifically why they were given an additional equipment slot. As it stands now, a Scout cannot be a 'Scout' (now classified as a Light Suit with a Cloak) without having more than a single point in X Scout. With Dropsuit Core Upgrades, Engineering, and Electronics maxed a Caldari Scout has 238.375 CPU and 43.3125 PG. With a single point in Caldari Scout, that cloak is eating 136/29.75 CPU. That isn't enough left over to fit anything more than a Rail Rifle, Magsec, and a single basic shield extender. It just eats up so much PG and CPU. A Militia Medium Caldari Frame, with zero SP, can fit 2 Shield Extenders, an Assault Rifle, a SMG, an Armor Plate, and a Nanohive. All Militia. It can be an "assault suit" very easily. A Scout without heavy SP investment is not going to be a "Scout", even with AUR gear. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 911	Posted - 2014.03.31 08:33:00 - [4] - Quote mollerz wrote: You do not need a cloak to scout. There are many functions of a scout, and the cloak is only a part of some of them. While you fight your way through the ranks, you'll go from starter scout fits to much more elaborate and specialized fits as your skills allow. None of this is possible without your core skills maxed out. Especially for the minmatar scout, the hardest to fit. I highly disagree with the "you don't need a cloak to be a Scout." I think it is erroneous to say "cloaks are just a bonus for Scouts" when the entire suit has been completely redesigned with cloaks in mind. The first is the obvious 15% reduction per level as the blanket Role bonus. That isn't a "if you use a Rail Rifle as a Caldari Assault, you reload faster" nudge for players to use a certain weapon,; that is a signal flare shot into the dark of night that spells out "USE CLOAKS!" The fact that an entire equipment slot was added at the same time as cloaks lends to the notion that one was designed for the other. During the development of 1.8, the Scout was going to lose its sidearm as compensation for the extra slot: CCP Remnant wrote: Done and done. Though, you're gonna be losing a sidearm slot. (Also, I think people are gonna faint when they see the PG/CPU costs of cloak fields; Scouts'll be alright though) CCP Saberwing wrote: knight guard fury wrote: remove the sidearm slot from scouts. i heard from some people that you said you were "thinking about it" The CPM held a discussion with both Remnant and Wolfman yesterday -- there's still a lot of discussion around this point so nothing's confirmed at all. The CPM in fact argued against removing sidearms from scouts - as they believe with the introduction of cloaking - it would be a healthy complement to be able to equip both Nova Knives and another weapon. I find it funny that people were saying "Slayer Logis are not what a Logistics is supposed to be; they get a bonus to equipment so they should be all about the equipment" but now that cloaks are out and the suit was heavily redesigned it is commonly stated "you don't need a cloak to Scout." mollerz wrote: In eve, trial accounts can't train cloaking, and in a F2P game like dust- the staggering SP investment is that barrier. What does cloaking in a subscription based game about space ships have to do with cloaking in a Free to Play FPS? The two technologies in the two game are completely different. You might as well say "cloaks in EVE are broken because they don't work like they do in X-COM." X-COM and EVE cloaks share more in common than DUST and EVE cloaks do. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 912	Posted - 2014.03.31 11:57:00 - [5] - Quote bamboo x wrote: cloak starter fit also heavy starter fit /thread Cloak starting fit doesn't work. How much CPU/PG would it have to be able to actually fit a cloak, and a Militia cloak at that? Let's say that our theoretical starter fit cloak has the same fitting requirement as a regular cloak, which it wouldn't, and that the Starter Fit has 33 PG and 174 CPU which is the same as a basic Caldari Scout, which it also wouldn't. Every other starter fit is worse than the variant it copies but let's keep those stats. The cloak uses 160 CPU and 35 PG. It is instantly capped without even having a weapon. So what are you going to do? Increase the stats on the starter fit? Then you are punishing the people that have X Scout at level 1. Decrease the fitting cost of the starting fit? Then why would you put points into cloak at all if "you can get the milk for free"? If you give the starter fit some kind of role bonus that reduces the cost of the cloak, do it to every light suit and you have my exact suggestion. Changing it to 25 + 10 per level would mean that the lower SP players (which is who would benefit most) could try it out. They could grab a Militia Frame, an AUR cloak/put the points in it (militia cloak would be cool too). Again, good ol' Caldari: Cloak CPU / PG: 160 / 35 * .75 = 120 / 26.25 Militia frame is: 125 / 26 Fairly close but maybe even 35 + 8% per level but let's work with 25 + 10% for now. Add 17.3% PG/CPU from Dropsuit Core Upgrades 2 and Electronics/Engineering 3 and after putting on the Cloak with the 25% reduction you have 26.625 / 4.248 free. That isn't much, in fact it is barely enough to use a weapon... but it is enough so the thing does work. Oh, it works like a car with 2 flat tires but it works. It lets the user determine if this kind of play-style would be something they would enjoy. For the starting Scout, it is an extra free 32 CPU and 7 free PG. It isn't huge but it is enough to get the idea if you want to continue putting points into it and gives a smoother progression with the biggest leap coming inherent to the suit. Because with the Scout suit with a Cloak and ONLY with the Scout suit with a Cloak, there is a mountain of difference between level 1 and level 5 when both players have the same suit. No other suit has that large of an advantage. Yes, level 5 should give you an advantage over level 1: that is the insensitive to increase it. However, when it is basically "get it to advanced or don't do it at all." Even if you disagree that the Scout is now classified as "Cloak guy" (which is fine; it's an opinion that can be supported or argued against) you should be able to agree that the difference between Scout 1 with a Cloak and Scout 3 with a Cloak when using the same suit is completely out of line with Sentinel 1 to Sentinel 3 or Logistics 1 to Logistics 3. Put a different way: Maxed Dropsuit Core Upgrades, Electronics, and Engineering makes basic Caldari Scout gain 54.375 CPU and 10.3125 PG. That costs 3,373,040 SP (not counting perquisites). 2 levels of Caldari Scout with a cloak saves/'gains' 48 CPU and 10.5 PG. That costs, counting perquisites, 497,430 SP. The Scout skill is simply too important not to get multiple points in it quickly in order to even be a basic "cloak guy." Giving it a high base and lower scaling means that a single level of Scout can be a basic "cloak guy." This means that if the player decides "I hate cloaks!" they didn't waste a weeks worth of points just to try it out. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 918	Posted - 2014.03.31 14:37:00 - [6] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: SO far i've seen a Gal Commando, Min Commando, Min Logi M-1, Logistic gk0 using Cloak Fields. If heavies had a equipment slot, i would've seen one by now... So i don't what the issue is... I know you wont like it, but the way i see it... Customization depends on the player ... With a proper use of CPU/PG modules players can fit whatever they'd like.... No need to change things. It'd make spending SP into the Items a waste... Players have spent a good amount of SP into Dropsuits, Modules, Core Skills to use the Item properly... If someone really wants to use it, they can either find the alternative or Grind the SP to get it... I was expecting this argument to come up before it now. I am going to simplify it, purely for brevity so I can more easily show what I am talking about. I do not mean to make a strawman. If I did, please tell me and I will rectify it: "People have spent SP to be able to use items they wanted to use. If someone wants to use it, they should go through the ordeal as well." Accurate? I agree to an extent. If someone wants to use a prototype Rail Rifle, they should have to put the points in it like I did. However, I wouldn't say if people want to use it period they should have to grind SP for it. Advanced and Prototype are a luxury or alternative choice. However, whether or not you use or don't use a basic thing that has been entwined with your suit of choice isn't an alternative choice for the people with low SP; they just can't do it. That isn't a Prototype or Advanced thing they can use. It is a single basic level item that costs 18k isk to be able to equip but far, far too much to use. I chose 25 + 10% per level (or 35 + 8%) because it allows people with low skills to actually use it without being 'good' at it. No points would let you fit just the cloak and a light weapon/sidearm and NOTHING else on a militia light frame. 1 point in Scout would let you use a Cloak, light weapon, and fill up most of your slots with stuff. 2 points would be exactly equal to 3 points now, which is where I currently sit able to fit basic everything (extender, plate, weapon, grenades) with max CPU/PG skills. If someone wants to use cloaks effectively and efficiently, they are going to have to put points into Scout. The difference is that with my model they don't have points to test the water or have many points to do it just "not terribly." Stating "I had to walk through glass to get to the bar so you better do it to" is a very common emotion but not one I understand. I am not suggesting that the people at the bar help clean up the glass or have to give up their seats. I am simply advocating that the patch of glass not be so dangerous to traverse. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 926	Posted - 2014.03.31 20:41:00 - [7] - Quote neausea 1987 wrote: phew i almost died until i read this thread and now my belly is full Care to elaborate on that? "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 934	Posted - 2014.04.01 09:13:00 - [8] - Quote SPACE SYPHILIS wrote: Core skills, for all you noobs out their this why vets scream at you to upgrade your core skills to 5. So guess what I also run a Cal scout and I run proto cr, proto cloak, proto stamina and kincat with 3 complex shield extenders and 1 complex recharger. So guess what that means. I have all my core skills to 5 and this allows me to run all this with no problem. So there is your answer work on your SP, stop trying to go proto to early, and work on your corp skills. Not everyone has the SP do max out those skills. Some people may have 15+ million and not have them capped when "they probably" should. For a lowered SP character, though, who has 5 million it is a case of "I can put points in CPU/PG skills to be able to use higher level of the stuff I can use OR "I can put points in stuff so I can use it period." This isn't a matter of "stop trying to go proto to early". Let's take a newer Player that has 3 ranks in the three CPU/PG skills. This is more than enough to fit basic everything in an assault suit and can probably fit plenty of advanced stuff. These are not perfect skills but they are the skills of someone that has a few million SP. They started life as a Caldari Assault. They have decent shield skills, some points in armor, rail rifle, enough that it makes them a threat on the battlefield. This person decides "I want to try Scouts and Cloaks." The Player doesn't have the core skills maxed nor weapons but they want to at least try a Scout with a cloak. If there was a 25% reduction on light frames, they could grab a militia one and try it out. They would be naked except for the cloak and weapon but they could at least try it. However, since that isn't the case, our Player goes straight for Caldari Scout 1 because they want to try out cloak. You know how people are always saying "there needs to be a militia variant for stuff so you can test if you want to be them before dumping points into them?" 25% reduction on militia light frame would be that. So they have their Caldari Scout. With their CPU/PG skill, the suit has 206.103 CPU and 39.0885 PG. They put on a Cloak and a Rail Rifle. The Player now has 3 highs, 1 low, 1 equipment, grenade, and sidearm to fill yet only has 3 PG and 46 CPU to spare. That works as a fit but look at every other suit with 1 point in it. They can fill everything, at least with basic equipment. The Player doesn't have a chance in hell. 1 basic shield extender caps their PG at 39/39 with 28 CPU. They could throw in a basic PG extender, so they do to get more fitting. Of course, now they are 14 free CPU and 8 free PG. A bolt pistol puts them at 4 CPU and 2 PG left. They are capped completely. Empty Highs: 2 Grenade: No Empty Equipment: 1 Let's look at the same Player that puts a single point in Caldari Logistics. Militia Injector and Militia Repair Tool (they have higher requirements) lets them fit an Advanced Rail Gun, a Basic plate, and 2 Complex shield extenders. Puts them at 8 CPU and 2 PG. They can't fit a grenade as they are over by a single CPU but all they need to do is not use a militia piece of equipment. Completely filled up, same level of skill investment, is able to do "their role a lot more proficiently." The Scout isn't trying to get in Prototype gear too quickly; they are trying to fit a basic cloak and basic gear. That is impossible until at least level 3. If you want to say "You don't need a cloak to be a scout", I have a question for you than: "Do you consider Logistics be be built and aimed entirely around their equipment, especially after the patch?" The reason why I ask is because the same thing that happened with Logistics, "you get better at equipment and your specific equipment", is exactly what happened to Scouts. The difference is that the SP required to play a Scout is far, far higher than the entry level to play any other suit. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 955	Posted - 2014.04.01 22:20:00 - [9] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: Ludwig von Braun wrote: it would be cool to try a cloak before going scout You can. Which is why I think this thread is a bunch nonsense. 2nd, a cloak is not a requirement barring anyone from playing as a scout it's just another tool that's available. I've seen almost every suit that can fit a cloak do so. Just saw a Min commando this morning, pretty sure he didn't have any point into scout suits. What you probably saw was an advanced or prototype Commando with PG/CPU enhancers with high skills in Electronics and Engineering. That is a thing that happens but the point of this change is for the lower SP players. The guys that don't have 2.2 million just in those CPU/PG skills. You can say that a cloak is not a requirement to use a Scout but I have to ask if you would say that equipment isn't necessary to be a Logistics player. They both have role bonuses in doing so and Scouts were redesigned around being able to use it. Sure it isn't required but a light weapon isn't required to be an assault either; it's a tool that available. The point is that barring an aspect of the suit until you have several points in cloak is unfair to the lower SP players. Thanks for commenting. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 976	Posted - 2014.04.02 22:28:00 - [10] - Quote Obviously, the +10% would be additive for the total percentage. 25% with no levels, 35% with 1 level, 45% with two levels, 55% with three levels, 65% with four levels, and 75% with five levels. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson

Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 976	Posted - 2014.04.03 12:00:00 - [11] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Good suggestions. I'd like more information on applied bonuses for basic frames and racial suits. Are you suggesting that skilling into a light frame provides bonuses that are used by the racial tier above? No. It would be a flat 25% reduction for all light suits. So Light Frames, Militia Light Frames, and Scouts. Scouts would provide an additional 10% reduction per level to using a cloak when fit into a Scout. A Militia Light Frame could run a cloak with a 25% reduction but it is to the point that you are basically using an SMG as a weapon with nothing else. You are able to experiment with it at least. 35% reduction at level 1 Scout would obviously let you fit it much each than now. You can test it on Protofits compared to every other basic suit with 'required' items (Logistics with max equipment, Assault with Light Weapon + Sidearm, Heavy with HMG). They can fit their 'required' stuff and easily throw in advanced weapons and higher level modules. A level 1 scout is pretty much naked with just cloak. Someone with level 5 Scouts using a basic Scout is disproportionately powerful and capable of fitting whatever they want compared to a basic suit used by someone with level 5 Assault/Logistics/Commando/Sentinel. That should be de-emphasized. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 978	Posted - 2014.04.03 14:14:00 - [12] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: I see now. Skilling into light frames would hold no bearing on the reduction (a base 25% as you say). Going further into scout skills tree path would be what adds to this fitting reduction, just at a 10% increase per level. I like this. Now if only basic frames were cheaper than their racial variants. The idea is more of a "Do I want to try cloaks?" before having to throw points into it rather than "why go Scout if I can just use a frame?" Taking a 300k SP risk to see if you like cloak + scout is a pretty big risk. If you have near 30 million SP, no big deal. If you don't like it, you have lots of other stuff to do. If you have 5 million SP, 300k SP is a huge investment to try something. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 988	Posted - 2014.04.03 18:53:00 - [13] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: I see now. Skilling into light frames would hold no bearing on the reduction (a base 25% as you say). Going further into scout skills tree path would be what adds to this fitting reduction, just at a 10% increase per level. I like this. Now if only basic frames were cheaper than their racial variants. The idea is more of a "Do I want to try cloaks?" before having to throw points into it rather than "why go Scout if I can just use a frame?" Taking a 300k SP risk to see if you like cloak + scout is a pretty big risk. If you have near 30 million SP, no big deal. If you don't like it, you have lots of other stuff to do. If you have 5 million SP, 300k SP is a huge investment to try something. Then again that argument could be made for creating a burner alt account with 500,000 sp to test a character. All you need is to transfer ISK to a character or build it up in academy. Edit: Realistically, not many new players are going to understand and pick up on this aspect of alt creation right away in Dust. 485,050 SP is needed to get Caldari Scout 1, Cloak 1, Dropsuit Core Upgrades 2, and 1 point in Electronics/Engineering. That lets you put on a Caldari Scout with a Militia Assault Rifle and nothing else. That is a work around but is it really to be expected for a player to make an alt to test if they want to try out a large section of the game? This still doesn't change the fact that level 1 Scout is next to worthless for the notion of using a cloak. What is hilarious is the Dev Blog in EVE in regards to Drones seems to recognize this type of thing as a problem; "Currently drones are a very skill-intensive weapon system, thanks to the legacy of the original drone implementation years ago. The Drone Interfacing skill currently provides a 20% increase in drone damage per level, which makes it one of the most powerful skills in the game but also means that to be competitive with drones it is usually necessary to train this rank-5 skill all the way to level 5. The result is that drones have earned a reputation as a weapon system that is not suitable for new players. We will be minimizing this problem by reducing the bonus from the Drone Interfacing skill to 10% per level, and building the extra damage into the base stats of the drones. That means that on average, all drones will be gaining about 33% more base damage and a character with Drone Interfacing trained to level 5 will see their damage remain constant (ignoring for a moment all the other drone changes being made in this release). We believe that 10% per level is still a very suitable bonus for a rank 5 skill, and the Drone Interfacing skill will remain very desirable. Level 5 Drone Interfacing should, however, cease to be the absolute necessity that it is today." I think that is what they call 'irony.' ^_^ "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 992	Posted - 2014.04.03 22:28:00 - [14] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: The bonus should be a hard bonus applied to the suit, not a scaled bonus applied to the skill. See cloak fittings in EVE: a particular ship gets a 90% reduction to fitting a cloak, regardless of skill level, because that ship is made to work with cloaks. Should be the same with Scout suits. It's the only way to balance out both ability to fit cloaks and inability to fit anything and everything you want. I thought about it but decided against the suggestion as it allows some more progression this way while still working at Scout 1. I can see the point (and to an extent agree) with a flat role bonus but I figured such a huge change from the "DUST mentality" to the "EVE mentality" would go over as well as a cottage cheese boat. CLONE117 wrote: would this make it possible to fit cloak on mlt scouts.. thats what im interested in... Yes but you would essentially be naked. Militia Caldari Light Frame (base stats): 125 CPU / 26 PG Basic Cloak Field: 160 CPU / 35 PG x .75 = 120 / 26.25 Caldari Light Frame (3 in Electronics, Engineering, and Dropsuit Core Upgrades): 148 / 31 So you could fit a light weapon or sidearm and nothing else. Tight fit as hell but it would work. Shows a clear advantage of Scout > Militia but means you can try before you buy. Like I said, I might even suggest 35% reduction, +8% per level. knight of 6 wrote: I certainly don't wish the baptism by fire that I got on new players but i see the importance of teaching them how to play the suit and then giving them the reward of an easier means of traversing the map. CCP's treatment of the cloak it isn't being cruel to new players it's saying "only when you don't need it can you have it". Then why can Assaults use Light Weapons out of the gate rather than have to use their sidearms to learn "how to be an Assault" before getting their Rail Rifle? What if Heavies could not really fit a HMG or Forge Gun before they put 3 ranks in X Sentinel? Do you feel that people would be willing to accept that idea and others would be defending the implementation? It is really the same thing. Scouts were altered to be "the guys that use cloaks easily" however that only happens when you have 3+ ranks in it; even more ranks if you don't have max CPU/PG skills. This is not as good of a design as it could be, at least in my opinion. Basically: "why is it okay for an important tool of a role to be behind such a high SP Gate when no other suit/role has such a problem?" Thank you for all the replies. I also want to thank everyone for giving rational reasons or debate on their opinion. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 999	Posted - 2014.04.04 00:55:00 - [15] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: hopefully with something like this ill be able to fit it on my mlt galente scout suit. im used to having little armor anyways.. That would be the goal: be able to test it out without needing an Advanced/Prototype Suit and to allow Scout 1 to be able to fit stuff far, far easier. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 1006	Posted - 2014.04.04 14:55:00 - [16] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: heavy weapons have the highest SP requirement of any the heavy suit has the highest SP requirement of any logi's need multiple pieces of equipment scouts need nearly maxed out suits assault is the only suit without a "gate" scouts have always had a gate. scout 5 profile dampening 3 was the magic skill set to passively push below ADV active scanners before you maxxed your suit and then some all scouts needed to run a damp which murdered their ehp. believe it or not the cloak actually lowered the gate substantially because having a cloak on reduced your profile by 75%. Heavy weapons do have the highest SP requirements. However, the Forge Gun has a Militia variant so you can at least try it before you decide to skill into it. HMG should have a Militia variant; the fact it doesn't is silly. Even without it, AUR gear lets you try a Heavy before investing points in it (still, CCP needs Militia variant of everything). An AUR Caldari Scout is literally PG capped out of the gate without any points in Caldari Scout, Dropsuit Core Upgrades, or Engineering. How many points in Engineering and DCU are new players expected to have to try basic level stuff? Heavy Suits do have the highest SP requirements. However, a Militia Frame lets you use them no problem. You can fit it somewhat decently. Are you as good as a real Heavy? Nope but you can try before you buy. Logistics do need a large amount of equipment. However, Militia allows them to try before they buy. Are they as good? Nope but they can try before they buy. Scouts at least need Scout 3 to be able to put in basic stuff. Maxed Electronics, DCU, and Electronics lets me do 3 basic shield extenders, basic shotgun, basic magsec, basic cloak, basic plate, basic locus grenades, and compact nanohive with 3 ranks in Caldair Scout. A Caldari Militia Medium Frame can fit all that, sans cloak of course, with zero skill investment and still have 33 CPU and 7 PG left. In short, to fit a basic Scout you need millions in Upgrades and several points in the Scout itself. That is not true for ANY other suit. Assault really doesn't have a gate, this is completely true. Though you could argue they don't have a role either but that is another thread entirely. ^_^ "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 1026	Posted - 2014.04.05 02:07:00 - [17] - Quote Anyone else think of a flaw in this proposed change? I would love to hear 'em. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 1123	Posted - 2014.04.11 14:59:00 - [18] - Quote Thanks for the bump Jadek. Would be nice to get some more feedback on this. Dunno Saberwing will respond because when I met him in Vegas I called him "Iron Wolf Saber" to his face. :( "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 1132	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:34:00 - [19] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: http://eve.wikia.com/wiki/Skills:Cloaking An no, me and CCP Saberwing have no relation; his named is divered from a series of professional yo-yos Mine's a name dating back to mechwarrior 2 lan tourney days. As for my two cents. I don't want to see cloaks becomming a must have for scouts. The higher sp skill is fine to deter this a bit. Scouts should be functional and currently are without the cloak. Thanks for the reply. Me calling Saberwing your name was just me being a complete imbecile. Don't know why I did it. Hell of a first impression to be sure. I even sat through a 45 minute presentation where he said "CCP Saberwing" probably a 100 times to get it to stick. Didn't work for me I do have to respectfully disagree with your conclusion. There is a difference between Cloaks becoming a "must have" and them being "available to the lower SP players." For example, if the second equipment slot were taken away and a "Cloak Field Slot" were added that could only fit a Cloak, THAT would be pushing the Scout into a Cloak. However, making it to where a Militia Light Frame can barely run a Cloak and with 1 point in Scout you can fit a Cloak and other modules is a bit different. Rearranging the numbers doesn't make Cloaks more "must have" it just means that you can fit a Cloak easier than before. For a basic function of the Scout suit, even if it is not a "must have", to be locked away until you can invest millions of SP is simply out of line with every other suit. Are Heavy Weapons must have for Heavy Frames or Sentinels? No. If you had to put 3 points into Sentinel would Heavy Weapons become must have? No. If you cab agree with those two statements, how is "Scouts can fit Cloak more easily at low levels" suddenly making Cloaks must have for Scouts? I really must be missing something because I honestly do not see the connection. Would anyone care to explain? "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 1134	Posted - 2014.04.12 08:13:00 - [20] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Want to be a super-awesome sneaky Scout? Then invest super-awesome amounts of SP. The long road makes for better long-term progression, and teaches good habits along the way. Shortcuts bypass the "lessons learned" of early Scouting; front-loading encourages FoTM chasing. There are a few parts of your post that have been echoed throughout this thread, namely "hard starting makes it easier when you get the tools to help you later." The problem with this line of thinking is that no other suit has it. I am not unable to use a Rail Rifle and basic modules until I put 3 points into Assault and max Core Upgrades, Electronics, and Engineering. I had to specifically do that in order to fit 3 basic shield extenders, basic armor plate, basic shotgun, magsec, locus grenade, cloak, and compact nanohive. My Assault fits "everything needed to be a super-awesome shooty Assault" with less SP invested than needed to be a basic Scout. That is my concern. Again, this isn't balance; it is just needlessly cruel to those that want to try something but don't have millions of SP. Going into specifics about "lessons learned", my Assault didn't have to earn his Rail Rifle. I didn't have to run around with a Sidearm and learn to appreciate the small stuff before getting the cool stuff. While no one would suggest doing that for Assaults, many people have espoused that belief for Scouts. That is what I find confusing. Front-loading and FoTM? There is probably an argument to be made there but I am unsure how strong it can be as if someone wants to chase the Flavor/Fit, they are going to do it. Making it easier to sample doesn't change the FoTM chasers but it may inform others if they want to invest in a line of skills. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson

Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 1139	Posted - 2014.04.12 16:39:00 - [21] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I would like to add that light frames do not get a cloak bonus which really kills the 'new player' point. Also there is a desire for more high end skills; cloaks are by far the first amongst the things to train for after you 'max out' your suit similar to how people train up proficiencies with their gun after they 'max' that out too. Joseph Ridgeson wrote: My suggestion is to change the blanket Scout bonus: "10%% reduction in Cloak CPU/PG fitting cost" but set a Role Bonus for Scouts and Light Frames to add 25% to that reduction. I am also hoping to change the bonus so that it applies to Frames. It basically means that Militia Caldari Frame with some skills in Electronics and Engineering could fit a cloak and a sidearm/light weapon but nothing else (which is actually what Scout 1 has barely). That is where I believe the "try before you buy" can be brought forth with Cloaks. Even if that wasn't added, the front-loading change allows the player to use a Cloak and fit some modules with a single point. Would mean they have 56 CPU and 12.25 PG free rather than 24 CPU and 5.25 PG. Proficiency is one thing and using something basic is another though. Proficiency will add a buff to your specific weapon that requires that weapon be at the Prototype level; it makes that weapon better for all Suits and all roles, at least providing the role is involved in shooting people (so vehicles are out.) It is a gradual curve; more points and you get better at your weapon. Cloaks and Scouts really aren't. It went "with 1 Point in Caldari Cloak I could have a cloak, a weapon, and otherwise be naked. Level 2 I could put in some other modules but still huge parts empty. At 3 I could go all basic". All through the development of 1.8 there was the statement that "the Scout will be able to use a Cloak with little effort." Max CPU/PG core skills and 3 points in Caldari Scout to fit all basic level gear doesn't strike me as "little effort." Being able to use a Basic thing with other Basic gear is not the same as being able to use Prototype gear or a Proficiency. No other suit has that level of a gate. The Cloak itself is a times 3 skill yet requires more investment to make any kind of use of then Proficiency. Is it reasonable to have a system where someone with max Core CPU/PG Skills can only fit basic everything with a Cloak after going to Rank 3 Caldari Scout? I understand wanting higher end skills. However, because of the blanket role bonus, it seems to imply that Scouts = Cloaks. Scouts were changing in 1.8 to accommodate cloaks with the bonus, more CPU/PG, and with an extra equipment slot. If Scouts = Cloaks, why would they be behind such a large SP Gate? Thanks for taking some of your time in this thread. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1887	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:18:00 - [22] - Quote Due to CCP Rattati actually bringing forth information on things that are changing, how about this? Up you go! "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1912	Posted - 2014.05.26 00:26:00 - [23] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: And another bump on this because it's still one of the better ideas out there. Praise from Caesar good sir. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1916	Posted - 2014.05.26 21:18:00 - [24] - Quote Some more numbers. All other skills are set to zero, so AUR gear was used. Dropsuit Core Upgrades at 2, each Scout at level 1, no engineering/electronics. Bare minimum to use a Cloak: * Amarr: 136/173 CPU and 30/36 PG. Enough for a light weapon and, depending on the weapon, some modules. * Caldari: 136/177 CPU and 30/34 PG. Enough for a light weapon. * Gallente: 136/168 CPU and 30/38 PG. Enough for a light weapon and either a sidearm or some modules. Still a lot of empty slots. * Minmatar:136/187 CPU and 30/32 PG. Enough for a sidearm. 2 PG... Dropsuit Core Upgrades 3, Electronics/Engineering 3, Scout 1: * Amarr: 136/201 CPU and 30/41 PG. Probably the closest to be fit. Shotgun, 3 Basic Plates, leaving 5 free CPU, empty grenade, sidearm, high slot, and equipment. * Caldari: 136/206 CPU and 30/ 39PG. Lots of CPU but not much PG. A Shotgun and a Basic Shield Extender leaves 2 whole PG. * Gallente: 136/195 CPU and 30/44 PG. Shotgun puts the suit to 166/195 and 34/44. Basically, with a point or two in light weapon operation, it could do Shotgun and 3 Basic Plates. Empty sidearm, grenade, high slot, and equipment. * Minmatar: 136/217 CPU and 30/37 PG. Enough for a light weapon and either a sidearm or some modules. Still a lot of empty slots Maxed Core Upgrades and Electronics/Engineering: * Amarr: 136/223 CPU and 30/46 PG. With the same build as above, they have 27 free CPU and 9 free PG. * Caldari: 136/228 CPU and 30/43PG. A Shotgun, three basic shield extenders. 43/43 PG. * Gallente: 136/217 CPU and 30/49 PG. Shotgun, SMG, 3 basic plates. 9 PG left, 6 CPU. Empty grenade, high slot, and equipment. * Minmatar: 136/240 CPU and 30/41 PG. Combat Rifle and Nova Knife leave 6 PG left and 71 CPU. That's two basic shield extenders, still lots of empty slots. No basic Scout suit can fill all their slots with those skills if they use a cloak, something that is no intrinsically attached to the Scout. Empty slots and nothing above basic. So what if Scout was 5? Well, they are saving a lot of space. Like, turning a "Basic Suit into an Advanced Suit" for the amount of PG/CPU saved. First off, the Cloak only takes 40 CPU and 9 PG instead of 136 and 30. That means that each suit gets 21 free PG and 96 free CPU. Here are the difference in PG/CPU between Basic and Advanced Scouts for each race: Amarr: * Basic: 223 / 46 * Adv: 312 / 64 Difference: 89 / 18. Caldari: * Basic: 228 / 43 * Adv: 320 / 60 Difference: 92 / 17 Gallente: * Basic: 217 / 43 * Adv: 303 / 68 Difference: 86 / 25. This is the only Suit that gets more PG from being Advanced rather than Basic Suit with Scout 5. Minmatar: * Basic: 240 / 41 * Adv: 336 / 56 Difference: 96 / 15. This is the only Suit that equals CPU from being Advanced rather than Basic Suit with Scout 5. At the moment, you are basically going to be unable to fit yourself properly until you have Scout 5. This is not a case of the bonus being too powerful. No. It is a case of "This bonus is far too important for it to be so difficult to achieve." If it were just a Flat 75%, it would allow a Basic Scout to fit a Basic Cloak and still fill their slots decently. Same goes for Advanced and Prototype with the same level of Cloak. However, a Basic Scout could grab an Advanced Cloak and lower various modules that attribute to damage, defense, or E-War such as weapon, plate/extender, or scanner meta level. The only difference is that going Prototype Scout no longer means a Basic Scout can be fit and instead means that you can unlock higher level Suits and get a moderate bonus for that suit. The same as every other Suit Role. I know I have been verbose on this but I can do a tl;dr. Tl;dr : it is unfair that fitting Basic suits properly is only in the hands of those with 4 or 5 points in Scout suit. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.