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Appia Vibbia
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
1445
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 03:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
The shotgun in DUST 514 is a terrible weapon. There are many reason for this, from people having 100% movement speed walking backwards to damage profile when facing armor tanked or dual tanked suits, or how all the new maps have virtually 0 cover in between medium range complexes like long, narrow hallways... Although in the perfect settings it can be used to great effect
Coming in 1.8 the proficiency skill is being changed from +3% to RoF to +X% to shield damage per level. But IGÇÖll show here why change proficiency to damage without affecting the shotgunGÇÖs innate RoF is detrimental to this weapon far more than anything else.
Let us first take a magical place, we call this GÇ£The White Room.GÇ¥ Within the white room, all weapons are shooting each other within optimal ranges and bullets never miss. Getting into the nuances of how many pellets miss, how often people get behind cover or however unlikely, a weapon has enough dispersion to actually miss a target without error from the user >_>
But before we start firing these weapons weGÇÖll need some dummies. Consider we start with the comparison of the Assault Rifle and Shotgun, both Gallente Hybrid Blaster profiles weGÇÖll face them off against their nemeses, the Caldari.
First off, weGÇÖll pit our fellows against 2 friends in Assault C-1. Perhaps one player is teaching another and has decided to use the same tier suit but the guy on the right had just specGÇÖd into Assault and only has minimal skills, while the guy on the right has maxed out their core skills and role suits. The guy on the right has 2 basic shield extender, a basic armor plate, and a basic armor repairer. He has level 1 in appropriate Upgrade skills to unlock the extender, plate, and repairer and has skilled into each at level 1. The guy on the left is running a complex shield extender, a basic shield extender and 2 basic reactive plates The newbie is going to have 192 armor and 265 shields. against a blaster profile that means he has (192/0.9)+(265/1.1) = 454 EHP This good fellow, teaching his little buddy, has 227 armor and 359 shields, so (227/.9)+(359/1.1)= 651EHP
Lets look at a basic Assault Rifle, 30 damage a bullet with 750 RPM. ItGÇÖll take 16 bullets to kill the first guy and 22 to kill the second. 750 RPM = 12.5 per second. or 1 bullet every 0.08 seconds. 16/12.5 = 1.28 seconds 22/12.5= 1.76 seconds
The basic shotgun does 40 damage per pellet and shoots 12 pellets. each round does 480 damage. It fires off 85.7 RPM or 1.4 rounds a second or 1 round every 0.7 seconds. Wow, though, in 0.7 seconds or as soon as the shot fires the shotgun OHKOs newbie and take 1.4 seconds to kill the seconds guy. The shotgun sounds great! Sure that optimal range may be a problem, but if I get in it IGÇÖll win!
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
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Appia Vibbia
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
1445
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 03:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Now, letGÇÖs have a face-off Gallente vs Gallente, the worst match up. Both sides know each otherGÇÖs strengths and weaknesses and no one has the weapon profile bonus. Lets compare a new guy and a vet against the basic weapons again. A basic shield extender, 2 basic plates, and a basic armor repairer, that sound reasonable? This guy has 148 shields and 351 armor. A basic shield extender, 2 enhanced armor plates and an enhanced armor repairer, on a G-1 Assault. This a reasonable fit? gives the vet 174 shields and 515 armor. Low SP guy has 519 EHP, vet has 732 EHP A basic AR takes 1.44 seconds to kill the first and 2 seconds to kill the vet The basic shotgun takes 1.4 seconds for the first and 1.4 seconds for the second.
Ok. Yeah. I really like the shotgun. At basic level it seems really awesome vs basic suits. But what if youGÇÖre one of those people thatGÇÖve been farming ISK from PC, because I know I was , so I have the ISK to run full proto for the next few years. Lets look at proto weapons taking on those damn scrubs that dared to bring themselves onto the field without their proto gear too! What? one guy doesnGÇÖt even have the SP to do it? thatGÇÖs his fault for being a scrub. -__-
Duvolle AR vs the Low SP C-1 takes 1.12 seconds. Takes out the vet in 1.6 seconds. CreoDron Shotgun vs the Low SP C-1 takes 0.7 seconds and 1.4 against the second.
Oh-kaaay. Why did I pull out my CreoDron if it took the same number of shots? The AR clearly gained an advantage but I did not.
How about against the other guys? proto AR takes 1.28 against GÇ£the scrubGÇ¥ and 1.84 seconds against the vet. The proto shotty? oh, hells yeah. one-shot that first guy for 0.7 seconds. The second? aww 1.4 again. Oh. But wait! if that first guy just invest a few thousand SP into armor or shield upgrades then he too takes 1.4 seconds with both. . . well. Hmm. thatGÇÖs sad. But wait!!! I forgot, IGÇÖm a proto-stomper. What am I doing without any damage mods or proficiency on my weapons?!
In the new dev-blog on the 5th, they say they were changing the numbers to proficiency, it may stay at 3 percent, it could drop to 1 percent per level, or even increase to 5% per level. Having proficiency no longer affect damage but affect EHP instead. For this little project I and going on an assumption of the numbers staying at 3% per level to appropriate damage profile bonus. At level 5 the damage profile of these weapons become 90% to armor and 125% to shields So we now have 4 values to use. prof 5 basic gear and prof 5 proto gear, for 2 weapons
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
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Appia Vibbia
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
1445
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 03:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
C-1 guys now have 425EHP and 539EHP G-1 guys have 497EHP and 711EHP.
1.2 seconds against the lower SP C-1, 1.44 seconds against the C-1 vet, 1.36 against the low SP G-1, and 1.92 seconds against the high SP G-1.
Prof V Duvolle AR has TTK of 1.04, 1.36, 1.28 and 1.76
With the AR the most significant difference is clearly shown against the high shield HP suit, the rest it really only saved about a single bullet.
If changing TTK was the goal here, yeah, I love it. It isnGÇÖt OP and so demanding to max out that skill anymore but it really helps in those niche situations against your racial weaponGÇÖs nemesisGÇÖ suit.
But letGÇÖs go back to the basic shotgun with proficiency 5: 0.7 seconds vs LSP C-1, 1.4 against the rest. What!? why did I even bother putting SP in proficiency if nothing changed? But. but... what if it was left alone and shotgun proficiency changed RoF? well then... 0.595 seconds vs LSP C-1 and 1.19 seconds against the rest. 1.19 seconds? that sounds amazing?! Can I have that? what do you mean GÇ£no?GÇ¥ [:tear]
CreoDron has the same numbers as it did the first time around. Not very useful it seems to pub-stomp with proto shotguns.
adding a small amount of damage to the shotgun does not change the number of rounds needed to kill anyone, because of this the Proficiency skill in Shotguns is just a waste of a playerGÇÖs SP.
If youGÇÖre still around this far into the post you can see IGÇÖm getting lazy with organization, well, itGÇÖs going to get worse. Fear not! however for at the top of this post there is a fancy link to a nice table I made to incorporate all the data.
This could become quite the arduous project if I went around doing each class of suit, so lets just jump to basic Caldari Sentinel, basic Gallente sentinel and then weGÇÖll make proto fits! IGÇÖm not entirely comfortable with the meta behind Caldari Sentinel fittings, so if someone would like, please make a better theoretical build and I will update the chart.
LSP Caldari Sentinel: 2 basic shield extenders, basic armor repairer HSP Caldari Sentinel: 1 complex shield extender basic shield extender, enhanced armor plate
LSP CS: 409 armor, 596 shields. LSP EHP: 1027. HSP EHP: 958 HSP CS: 614 armor, 753 shields LSP EHP: 1608. HSP EHP: 1503
Basic AR takes 2.56 seconds against the low SP caldari sentinel, while the basic AR with prof V take 2.56 seconds Duvolle AR takes 2.56 seconds against the low SP caldari sentinel, while with prof 5 it takes 2.4 seconds
The basic shotgun, with or without proficiency, takes 2.1 seconds to fell this heavy. The CreoDron, with or without proficiency takes 1.4 seconds to slay him
Against the High SP Caldari Sentinel the basic AR takes 4.32 seconds and 4.08 with prof V. The Duvolle AR takes 3.92 seconds and 3.68 seconds with prof V
Against the High SP Caldari Sentinel the basic shotgun takes 2.8 seconds with or without proficiency
Now letGÇÖs look at a Gallente Sentinel. No resistance bonuses apply because theyGÇÖre the same race so It may be different. on the LSP GS lets give them a basic plate, basic shield extender, and basic armor repairer. with the pre-reqs and modules it has 431 shields and 617 armor. The HSP GS will have a complex damage mod and 2 complex armor plates, because they know self-reps just arenGÇÖt fast enough and to rely on rep-tools and rep-hives... So a shield HP of 487 and armor HP of 953 armor (btw, a G-1 sentinel has the fitting requirements for this, an MH-82 and a basic scrambler pistol and a basic flux grenade with maxed out stats.)
So our LSP GS has an EHP of 1070 against no proficiency and EHP of 1030 against Prof V Our HSP GS has an EHP of 1500 against no proficiency and an EHP of 1448
Our basic AR takes 2.88 seconds to fell the LSP GS, and with prof V it takes 2.8 seconds Our Duvolle AR takes 2.64 seconds to fell the LSP GS, and with prof V it takes 2.56
Our basic AR takes 4 seconds to kill the HSP GS and with prof v it takes 3.92 The Duvolle AR takes 3.6 seconds to kill the HSP GS and with prof V it takes 3.52
Basic Shotgun take 2.1 seconds to kill the LSP GS and with prof V it takes 2.1 seconds The CreoDron Shotgun takes 2.1 seconds to fell the LSP GS and prof v is 1.4 (though getting shield OR armor upgrades to level 2 is enough to make it take 2.1 seconds)
The basic shotgun takes 2.8 seconds to kill the HSP GS and with prof 5 it takes 2.8 seconds The CreoDron take 2.1 seconds to kill the HSP GS and with prof V it takes 2.1 seconds.
Now that weGÇÖve looked at both 2 assault suits and 2 sentinel suits, each as a new player and a vet using them letGÇÖs try analyzing the data. Resistance bonus plays a large roll in TTK, but even more so, picking your targets out by damage profile seems to be even more important. Proficiency 5 in a weapon (at 15%, which may change or remain the same) seems to only change the damage by a single bullet for the Assault Rifle for either tier. While the 10% increase in damage from Basic to Proto has a larger difference of about 4 bullets less to kill. On the other hand the proficiency 5 has almost no visible effect on the Shotgun at standard or proto level while more often than not the change in damage from the basic to prototype shotgun is not enough to matter.
Wanna see what happens at the prototype level?
Before then IGÇÖd like to state that all the builds I am using do not seem unreasonable to me. The high SP builds are what I currently run (A-1 Sentinel rather than G-1, but it converts, and I donGÇÖt use C-1 Sentinel as it does not exist) or ones I had tried when I was just starting out and branching into different roles to try them all out. So the dropsuits I present to you in this section are ones that either I currently use, or how I would play them if I did have them (by which I mean the sentinels).
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
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GREEN DEATH21
Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION
17
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Posted - 2014.03.14 03:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
And I will be here to see what this potentially awesome thread will become! (;
EDIT; Read 1st part, and I have no opinion yet, but I will eventually think of something. (;
EDIT; TD,DR. I will read it in the morning, work tomorrow, but I will have a long comment when I wake up! Thread looks promising and I agree that the Shotgun is quite broken atm.
Alts Include; darren razgriz & Clare Razgriz
SUBIS: Scout specialist/ADS Pilot
"Together we stand, Divided we fall"
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Appia Vibbia
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
1445
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Posted - 2014.03.14 03:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Prototype is the endgame. For this section I will ignore the people that just dropped SP into the role at level 5 but are vets thatGÇÖve been playing long enough to accumulate the 22 million SP it takes to max out Dropsuit Upgrades, Proto Role suits, 1 heavy/light weapon, and 1 Sidearm. To make up for it, IGÇÖll present 2 types of suits: Utility/Specialist and full tank.
Utility Assault ck.0 .http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/666 2complex shield extenders, 1 basic armor plate.422 shields, 243 armor EHP of 653; EHP against prof V:607
Full Tank Assault ck.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/664 4 complex shield extenders, 2 enhanced armor plates, and a basic plate. 552 shields and 485 armor. EHP of 1041, EHP against prof V: 984
Basic AR TTK is 1.76, 1.68, 2.8, and 2.64 Duvolle AR TTK is 1.6, 1.52, 2.56, and 2.4
Basic Shotgun TTK is 1.4,1.4, 2.1, and 2.1 CreoDron Shotgun TTK is 1.4, 1.4, and 1.4
Utility Assault gk.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/668 2 complex plates. 150 shields, 559 armor EHP of 757, EHP against prof 5: 741
Full Tank Assault gk.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/669 2 basic shield extender, 1 complex shield extender, 4 complex armor plates. 271 shields 586 armor EHP of 897; EHP at prof V: 867
Basic AR TTK is 2.08, 2, 2.4, and 2.32 Duvolle AR TTK is 1.84, 1.84, 2.24 and 2.16 Basic Shotgun TTK is 1.4, 1.4, 1.4, and 1.4 CreoDron Shotgun TTK is 1.4, 1.4, 1.4, and 1.4
Regen Sentinel ck.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/670 1 complex shield extender, 728 shields 487 armor. EHP: 1415; EHP prof V: 1311
Full Tank Sentinel ck.0 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/161/671 4 compex shield extender, 1 complex armor plate. 946 shield, 636 armor EHP: 1843; EHP prof V: 1708
basic AR TTK: 3.84, 3.52, 4.96***, and 4.56 proto AR TTK: 3.44, 3.2, 4.48, and 4.16
*** takes more than a full clip and does not include reload time
basic shotgun TTK: 2.1, 2.1, 2.8, and 2.8 proto shotgun TTK: 2.1, 2.1, 2.8,and 2.8
The number of suits we go over really doesnGÇÖt matter. Each and almost every time shotgun proficiency does not change the way the weapon functions. We also start to note that the damage from basic shotgun to prototype shot also isnGÇÖt enough to affect the number of shots it takes to kill
The shotgun could use some love, the decrease spread from basic to proto is significant and a high damage means a little more range, but perhaps the proto-type could have a slower falloff rate, but thatGÇÖs for another time. Right now I want to focus on 1 thing:
TL;DR CCP please do not change the shotgunGÇÖs proficiency without changing the RoF between teirs. You are DIRECTLY nerfing this weapon. One that has many problem it has to overcome just to get that full damage off. That risk vs reward is missing on using different tiered shotguns and proficiency is basically a waste of SP.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
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GREEN DEATH21
Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION
18
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Posted - 2014.03.14 03:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ok I lied, I read your whole post. I see your point and I agree, the RoF proficiency is critical to it's effectiveness. Changing the proficiency from RoF to SD damage without changing the RoF on the different tiers will indeed be a direct nerf to the weapon, as the OP stated in the last part. I hope CCP will change the proficiency back to RoF instead of SD damage as your thread proves exactly why. Great job on the stats and I hope a DEV sees this and takes this under consideration with the rest of the DEVs.
Alts Include; darren razgriz & Clare Razgriz
SUBIS: Scout specialist/ADS Pilot
"Together we stand, Divided we fall"
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
2400
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Posted - 2014.03.14 04:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Agree with you Appia You summed up some of my concerns over this change and added a lot of information to back it up. Excellent work Damn that is a lot to read, but well worth it.
KRRROOOOOOM
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IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
696
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 04:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
+4
PHI Recruitment
or PHIsh Tank in game
Youtube
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Haerr
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
359
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Posted - 2014.03.14 06:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
+4
Scanning Table for 1.8: LINK
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Dexter307
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
1031
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Posted - 2014.03.14 07:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yes, please dont do this CCP |
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1687
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Posted - 2014.03.14 08:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
I know your intention here Appia, but do you really think CCP gives a damn about what you just typed?
Drop it like its hat.
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Yan Darn
Forsaken Immortals Top Men.
323
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Posted - 2014.03.14 08:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ok, now not not bothered about the prof change - there is me thinking just about the higher alpha, and now there is math and stuff telling me it's kinda pointless going for higher tiers of shotguns.
Well, now i'm hoping the ops skill has changed to RoF bonus...
The Ghost of Bravo
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2374
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Posted - 2014.03.14 08:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
I agree with everything here but I'd personally make the change the other way around - instead of changing prof back, increase ROF per tier as well, otherwise it's basically pointless to use a higher level shotgun than the basic most of the time.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Appia Vibbia
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
1482
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Posted - 2014.03.14 08:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:I know your intention here Appia, but do you really think CCP gives a damn about what you just typed? Of course not. I know how changes happen. Regardless of data and logic it's rules of the Suburbs out here. Whoever complains the most and the loudest wins. Thank you tanks. Someone said, dev of CPM, that the reason they missed the huge AV nerf, because the people who had data to show why it was a bad idea just did exactly as I'm doing now. The crap needs to be spammed and whined about incessantly for CCP to notice.
I don't even care if they try to improve the weapon to get it into a good place. Right now I'll settle for it just not getting nerfed.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
727
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 09:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
GREEN DEATH21 wrote:Ok I lied, I read your whole post. I see your point and I agree, the RoF proficiency is critical to it's effectiveness. Changing the proficiency from RoF to SD damage without changing the RoF on the different tiers will indeed be a direct nerf to the weapon, as the OP stated in the last part. I hope CCP will change the proficiency back to RoF instead of SD damage as your thread proves exactly why. Great job on the stats and I hope a DEV sees this and takes this under consideration with the rest of the DEVs.
The RoF was Ok a flat damage boost would be ok as well (IMHO this would serve the SG better) but the nerfed damage boost will push the SG even more in the corner of uselessness.
It has a stupid operation skill that makes the SG weaker with every level (oh how I regret to put my points in there) it will have a weaker proficiency skill than now. And the optimal range of a SG is very bad. Honestly you would better use a NK a charged NK can OHK most to any medium suits something the SG never really could
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Appia Vibbia
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
1492
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Posted - 2014.03.14 09:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:GREEN DEATH21 wrote:Ok I lied, I read your whole post. I see your point and I agree, the RoF proficiency is critical to it's effectiveness. Changing the proficiency from RoF to SD damage without changing the RoF on the different tiers will indeed be a direct nerf to the weapon, as the OP stated in the last part. I hope CCP will change the proficiency back to RoF instead of SD damage as your thread proves exactly why. Great job on the stats and I hope a DEV sees this and takes this under consideration with the rest of the DEVs. The RoF was Ok a flat damage boost would be ok as well (IMHO this would serve the SG better) but the nerfed damage boost will push the SG even more in the corner of uselessness. It has a stupid operation skill that makes the SG weaker with every level (oh how I regret to put my points in there) it will have a weaker proficiency skill than now. And the optimal range of a SG is very bad. Honestly you would better use a NK a charged NK can OHK most to any medium suits something the SG never really could
I don't see how less dispersion makes it weaker. Could you please explain that to me. Having a more concentrated blast, at least to me, seems like it would mean more pellets scoring hits on a target than have a spray-and-pray mentality of trying to guarantee a hit but for lower damage. It also means that the blast can travel further and do more damage because of the smaller cone it fires in. Unless the shotgun blast is a magical orb that if any of it touches you, you take full damage- which it might be- less dispersion in indirectly more damage. How is that stupid?
Regardless. I added the Breach Shotgun and the Allotek Breach shotgun, for lolz. Look at how the breach shotgun actually takes an equal number of shots, with lower RoF means high TTK. Or simply just takes too long to reload.
Really. the Breach Shotgun is probably in the running against Plasma cannon and flaylock pistol for worst weapons in the game.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
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General12912
Gallente Marine Corps
113
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Posted - 2014.03.14 09:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
+1
this is stupid. the TTK with Proficiency V doent even change the TTK. the shotgun makes for a good assassination tool for scouts. looks like it wont be so anymore. also were these your calculations? did you take into consideration the plasma spread at Operation V and the fact that the damage it shows on the stats is actually the damage per bullet?
Assault Gk.0
Gallente Federation Patriot
General of the Gallente Marine Corps. Look us up if you want to join.
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Nocturnal Soul
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2278
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 12:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Agreed but alas it is to late and 1.8 is most likely set in stone.
Its alright everyone, no need to worry it's just an Amarr scout :(
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
733
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Posted - 2014.03.14 12:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:GREEN DEATH21 wrote:Ok I lied, I read your whole post. I see your point and I agree, the RoF proficiency is critical to it's effectiveness. Changing the proficiency from RoF to SD damage without changing the RoF on the different tiers will indeed be a direct nerf to the weapon, as the OP stated in the last part. I hope CCP will change the proficiency back to RoF instead of SD damage as your thread proves exactly why. Great job on the stats and I hope a DEV sees this and takes this under consideration with the rest of the DEVs. The RoF was Ok a flat damage boost would be ok as well (IMHO this would serve the SG better) but the nerfed damage boost will push the SG even more in the corner of uselessness. It has a stupid operation skill that makes the SG weaker with every level (oh how I regret to put my points in there) it will have a weaker proficiency skill than now. And the optimal range of a SG is very bad. Honestly you would better use a NK a charged NK can OHK most to any medium suits something the SG never really could I don't see how less dispersion makes it weaker. Could you please explain that to me. Having a more concentrated blast, at least to me, seems like it would mean more pellets scoring hits on a target than have a spray-and-pray mentality of trying to guarantee a hit but for lower damage. It also means that the blast can travel further and do more damage because of the smaller cone it fires in. Unless the shotgun blast is a magical orb that if any of it touches you, you take full damage- which it might be- less dispersion in indirectly more damage. How is that stupid? Regardless. I added the Breach Shotgun and the Allotek Breach shotgun, for lolz. Look at how the breach shotgun actually takes an equal number of shots, with lower RoF means high TTK. Or simply just takes too long to reload. Really. the Breach Shotgun is probably in the running against Plasma cannon and flaylock pistol for worst weapons in the game.
Its a tricky topic first of all IMHO spread is the biggest advantage of the SG as it make hitting way easier. But thats my personal opinion.
The thing with the OP skill is thanks to spread reduction th SG only hit if you are dead on target its basically the same problem the former laser precise HMG had. Having your victim in the reticle simply not enough you will simply miss even if your reticle says otherwise.
This gets even worse in laggy games and CQC fights as only little movement is needed to make the SG miss the closer you are the bigger the effect.
And to be honest I really regret putting points in SG OP it was way easier to get kills with unskilled SG than it is now with my prof 3 SG :/ |
Charlotte O'Dell
Sooper Speshul Ponee Fors
2140
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Posted - 2014.03.14 14:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
I support this post.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men.
1017
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Posted - 2014.03.14 14:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
I see the shotgun in the same light I see nova knives. If you're comparing them against other weapons in a head on, "fair" fight scenario, you're doing it wrong and are probably already dead.
From my own experience running the Dren Shotgun and no skills into shotgun operation or proficiency, I don't mind having the slower RoF and can still land the three or four shots to kill heavies so long as I get within optimal range without them noticing. |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
23
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Posted - 2014.03.14 14:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Has it been confirmed the RoF bonus is being changed?
Rate of fire is crucial to the shotgun. Not only is it the only reliable way to increase dps as you have explianed but it greatly increases your ability to hit a strafing target. Strafing is very effective at short ranges. A higher rate of fire gives you more opportunity to time shots correctly to hit a strafing target. This aspect is as crucial to the shotgun's viability as it's alpha damage. |
Ivan Avogadro
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
856
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 15:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
This whole thread might actually prove the idea further to CCP, as their priority this build is to increase TTK. It sucks that the shotgun prof wont meaningfully change engagements, but I still can't see CCP legitimately considering making it deliver damage faster as they try to lengthen engagement time.
This is all of course, assuming that the shotgun Prof is changing at all and the dev blog wasn't a typo.
The one area where I will say this helps though, Appia, is with grazing shots. With hit detection still wonky, and with shotgun spread the way it is, having each pellet peel off a little more shield makes the gun slightly more forgiving for off center shots or non optimal shots. Your analysis assumes full contact with 12 pellets in range. In the case of a bunny hopper where only 6 of my pellets land, or when the guy is 15m out and not 10m, doing more alpha damage per shot might flip the engagement. |
Appia Vibbia
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
1506
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sana Rayya wrote:I see the shotgun in the same light I see nova knives. If you're comparing them against other weapons in a head on, "fair" fight scenario, you're doing it wrong and are probably already dead.
From my own experience running the Dren Shotgun and no skills into shotgun operation or proficiency, I don't mind having the slower RoF and can still land the three or four shots to kill heavies so long as I get within optimal range without them noticing.
I see you have missed the point entirely. I am not comparing the damage out put of the two weapons, but the effect of using different tiers (STD, ADV, PRO) and investing Skill Points into Proficiency. There is virtually zero change between STD shotgun, STD shotgun with proficiency 5, PRO shotgun, and PRO shotgun with proficiency 5. That is what this is demonstrating. That the change to proficincy in the Shotgun, specifically, becomes a waste of SP.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
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Appia Vibbia
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
1507
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ivan Avogadro wrote:This whole thread might actually prove the idea further to CCP, as their priority this build is to increase TTK. It sucks that the shotgun prof wont meaningfully change engagements, but I still can't see CCP legitimately considering making it deliver damage faster as they try to lengthen engagement time.
This is all of course, assuming that the shotgun Prof is changing at all and the dev blog wasn't a typo.
The one area where I will say this helps though, Appia, is with grazing shots. With hit detection still wonky, and with shotgun spread the way it is, having each pellet peel off a little more shield makes the gun slightly more forgiving for off center shots or non optimal shots. Your analysis assumes full contact with 12 pellets in range. In the case of a bunny hopper where only 6 of my pellets land, or when the guy is 15m out and not 10m, doing more alpha damage per shot might flip the engagement.
Italics: Yes, I pointed that out indeed. I really like the effect it will have on the 4 rifles, and pistols, and SMGs. Not so much the Specialist weapons.
Bolded: I can't find the post but a dev confirmed it somewhere.
Underlined: The difference in damage is not significant. 15% to just shields would, again, benefit a high RoF weapon. But the fact that the fastest you can fire is ever 0.7 seconds it just isn't significant to matter. And most suits' shield will be nullified by a single blast regardless.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
AKA Nappia AKA Mathppia
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
2409
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ivan Avogadro wrote:This whole thread might actually prove the idea further to CCP, as their priority this build is to increase TTK. It sucks that the shotgun prof wont meaningfully change engagements, but I still can't see CCP legitimately considering making it deliver damage faster as they try to lengthen engagement time.
While the increase to TTK is a priority to CCP, part of how to make effective balance in TTK is having Alpha damage weapons with short effective range. TTK does not become lower because of Alpha weapons with short range, it actually increases it in a way, as engagement range does effect time to kill, not only damage. The Shotgun is one of those weapons, you need to get close to use it, in a low EHP scout suit, or soaking up damage in a high EHP suit, or whatever other method you can think of. Alpha Damage weapons are part of what makes scouts effective in higher TTK game play, something that has been forgotten with the fast TTK we have had. I think CCP realizes this, what they do about it remains uncertain.
KRRROOOOOOM
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Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men.
1017
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote: I see you have missed the point entirely. I am not comparing the damage out put of the two weapons, but the effect of using different tiers (STD, ADV, PRO) and investing Skill Points into Proficiency. There is virtually zero change between STD shotgun, STD shotgun with proficiency 5, PRO shotgun, and PRO shotgun with proficiency 5. That is what this is demonstrating. That the change to proficincy in the Shotgun, specifically, becomes a waste of SP.
Sorry, your posts were kind of TL;DR for me.
But if that's your main point, I wholeheartedly agree. I never did see the sense in putting points into the shotgun when the damage upgrade from basic is so negligible, even with proto + damage mods + proficiency. Same kind of deal with remotes. |
Bradric Banewolf
D3ATH CARD
154
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Posted - 2014.03.14 17:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
I am looking forward to 1.8 regardless of what it brings. Anything has to be better than 1.7?! Shotgun for the win! I don't got time to strafe dance with you all day?! Fix the lag, and punish lag switchers and hackers. Make this a game for true gamers, not cheaters?! Leave the cloaking in the the idea room until lag issues are fixed. That is all.
"Anybody order chaos?"
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lAssassinl Zer0
Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2014.03.14 17:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:TL;DR is in post 5Original format, Google DocTTK TableThe shotgun in DUST 514 is a terrible weapon. There are many reason for this, from people having 100% movement speed walking backwards to damage profile when facing armor tanked or dual tanked suits, or how all the new maps have virtually 0 cover in between medium range complexes like long, narrow hallways... Although in the perfect settings it can be used to great effect Coming in 1.8 the proficiency skill is being changed from +3% to RoF to +X% to shield damage per level. But IGÇÖll show here why change proficiency to damage without affecting the shotgunGÇÖs innate RoF is detrimental to this weapon far more than anything else. Let us first take a magical place, we call this GÇ£The White Room.GÇ¥ Within the white room, all weapons are shooting each other within optimal ranges and bullets never miss. Getting into the nuances of how many pellets miss, how often people get behind cover or however unlikely, a weapon has enough dispersion to actually miss a target without error from the user >_> But before we start firing these weapons weGÇÖll need some dummies. Consider we start with the comparison of the Assault Rifle and Shotgun, both Gallente Hybrid Blaster profiles weGÇÖll face them off against their nemeses, the Caldari. First off, weGÇÖll pit our fellows against 2 friends in Assault C-1. Perhaps one player is teaching another and has decided to use the same tier suit but the guy on the right had just specGÇÖd into Assault and only has minimal skills, while the guy on the right has maxed out their core skills and role suits. The guy on the right has 2 basic shield extender, a basic armor plate, and a basic armor repairer. He has level 1 in appropriate Upgrade skills to unlock the extender, plate, and repairer and has skilled into each at level 1. The guy on the left is running a complex shield extender, a basic shield extender and 2 basic reactive plates The newbie is going to have 192 armor and 265 shields. against a blaster profile that means he has (192/0.9)+(265/1.1) = 454 EHP This good fellow, teaching his little buddy, has 227 armor and 359 shields, so (227/.9)+(359/1.1)= 651EHP Lets look at a basic Assault Rifle, 30 damage a bullet with 750 RPM. ItGÇÖll take 16 bullets to kill the first guy and 22 to kill the second. 750 RPM = 12.5 per second. or 1 bullet every 0.08 seconds. 16/12.5 = 1.28 seconds 22/12.5= 1.76 seconds The basic shotgun does 40 damage per pellet and shoots 12 pellets. each round does 480 damage. It fires off 85.7 RPM or 1.4 rounds a second or 1 round every 0.7 seconds. Wow, though, in 0.7 seconds or as soon as the shot fires the shotgun OHKOs newbie and take 1.4 seconds to kill the seconds guy. The shotgun sounds great! Sure that optimal range may be a problem, but if I get in it IGÇÖll win!
The 100% speed when backwards is a problem i agree it should be 75% (or 50) |
Ninja Troll
General Tso's Alliance
93
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Posted - 2014.03.18 20:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
So many numbers, my eyes and brain hurt.
Checked the 1.8 SDE values and there have been no changes to the RoF of Shotguns. Didn't notice any changes to damage or anything else.
SG Scout. I enjoy killing Heavies, Snipers, and Scanemies
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