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Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 155	Posted - 2014.03.09 23:47:00 - [1] - Quote Clearly the Swarms are UP, only Packed AV nades work and Forge Guns are viable up to a certain point, but even then Tanks can take on anything without dying. In addition to their powerful modules their speed makes it easier for them to evade all AV weapons. Will CCP fix this in 1.8? "One does not simply" look for a scout, it looks for you.
Patrick57 5911	Posted - 2014.03.09 23:52:00 - [2] - Quote I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks.
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 156	Posted - 2014.03.09 23:56:00 - [3] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. But even that's limited because you have to be in a Heavy suit.... "One does not simply" look for a scout, it looks for you.
Patrick57 5911	Posted - 2014.03.09 23:58:00 - [4] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. But even that's limited because you have to be in a Heavy suit.... I know right? :( You have to have a derpship to get everywhere. ;_;
SPESHULz The Southern Legion 23	Posted - 2014.03.10 12:38:00 - [5] - Quote It used to take 2 people to kill a tank unless they screwed up pre 1.7. the problem is there are 3 times more tanks. Lord High Commander Maths is OP. After all it is all those numbers flying around that kills you.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 679	Posted - 2014.03.10 12:47:00 - [6] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: Clearly the Swarms are UP, only Packed AV nades work and Forge Guns are viable up to a certain point, but even then Tanks can take on anything without dying. In addition to their powerful modules their speed makes it easier for them to evade all AV weapons. Will CCP fix this in 1.8? NOpe CCP silently nerfed AV even further: One AV nade less that can be carried: from 3 down to 2 Nerf on damage mods Nerf on proficiency skills All that is a hard hit for AV...while according to a thread here no changes to vehicles will be made in 1.8. The good thing is till now now nerfs or adjustments are made to RE's so this tactic may still be viable in 1.8
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1109	Posted - 2014.03.10 12:47:00 - [7] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: Clearly the Swarms are UP, only Packed AV nades work and Forge Guns are viable up to a certain point, but even then Tanks can take on anything without dying. In addition to their powerful modules their speed makes it easier for them to evade all AV weapons. Will CCP fix this in 1.8? Currently i have 3 Complex Damage mods on my Wyrkomi Swarms with Prof 5. With the nerf to damage mods, Guess what would happen to the already useless swarms ?! Any tom **** and harry can spend few ISK get a Maddy or Gunni hull and call themselves tankers. But the things with the amount of SP invested in AVs i can't even scratch the MLT tanks. If we get a respec, guess what i'm getting rid off.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1252	Posted - 2014.03.10 12:53:00 - [8] - Quote SPESHULz wrote: It used to take 2 people to kill a tank unless they screwed up pre 1.7. the problem is there are 3 times more tanks. Are you high? Anyone with a proto swarm or forge could solo a tank pre 1.7. Now it actually takes more than one. But the problem now is that CCP made tanks too accessible. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
noob cavman The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 758	Posted - 2014.03.10 12:55:00 - [9] - Quote Its a lot easier to pop a tank with a tank than my swarms. Forge is still nice though GÖí Maddie 2 enhanced hardeners, enhanced heavy rep and a Fed blaster and happy times ahead. I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK British ninja cowboy scout, logi, heavy
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 745	Posted - 2014.03.10 12:59:00 - [10] - Quote Although CCP (and everyone else) agree there is an imbalance in the eternal HAV vs AV design space, the only thing that's been hinted as so far is giving war points for damaging, and not destroying HAV's. This of course only treats a symptom of the poorly implemented game mechanic, so I'm eager to see what the dev blog will bring in terms of changes to vehicles. Someone mentioned changing the way hardeners work but I couldn't find a CCP reference to this.

Yan Darn Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 312	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:00:00 - [11] - Quote So this means I can continue to hijack tanks and flail about in a useless manner for 5mins-10mins until something finally destroys me/I drive into the redline. Fan-*******-tastic. The Ghost of Bravo
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5564	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:00:00 - [12] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. Two people to kill one person is not effective. AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1253	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:09:00 - [13] - Quote Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. Two people to kill one person is not effective. So according to your logic, I should bumrush a proto sentinel with my medium suit and expect to win? Your logic is flawed; it's not however much AV it takes to take out a tank, the problem is the accessibility of tanks. We need all of our passive skills back as a starter: 5% shield/armor per level, 2%/3% turret damage per level, hell, even give us new skills like 5% acceleration and too speed per level, then CCP can nerf all of the attributes, then only level 5s will bring us back to what we are now. And keep prices as they are now. People complain that ISK shouldn't be a limiting factor; OK, I say SP should be the limiting factor. If you're not dedicated to something, you shouldn't receive the benefits. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Deltahawk Durango Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 145	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:13:00 - [14] - Quote of course they'll fix it in the next patch... that's what have CPMs for... i predict damage buff to AV nades and swarm launchers... would also like to see increased fitting costs for hardeners so running two will require sacrifices elsewhere... I don't believe in an eye for an eye... I believe in two eyes for an eye!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1253	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:25:00 - [15] - Quote Deltahawk Durango wrote: of course they'll fix it in the next patch... that's what have CPMs for... i predict damage buff to AV nades and swarm launchers... would also like to see increased fitting costs for hardeners so running two will require sacrifices elsewhere... That's not the way to go about hardeners because it will punish those who only run one on tight fitting. My fitting is extremely tight with max skills and I have just one hardener; you want to nerf me as well simply because I have one hardener? Also, I don't think that stacked hardeners are much of a problem. You are already giving up a module slot for that hardener, so you're going to be short either on damage or raw shield HP. For me, I must have my damage amp, otherwise I can't single-volley most tanks. So if I give up my shield extender for a second hardener, that means that it takes one rail or forge shot when I'm unhardened to screw me over, as all the resists in the world won't save me with several hundred shield left. There are ways to deal with stacked hardeners. Tanks are much weaker on cooldown with stacked hardeners than those with just one; I've managed to destroy blaster Somas and even Madrugars while my hardener was on cooldown because I had a damage amp and shield extender to provide me with enough gank. A triple hardener Gunnlogi that's cycling it's hardeners to become perma-hardened is extremely weak to a railgun because it lacks the extra HP and damage to deal with it. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1149	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:31:00 - [16] - Quote Harpyja wrote: SPESHULz wrote: It used to take 2 people to kill a tank unless they screwed up pre 1.7. the problem is there are 3 times more tanks. Are you high? Anyone with a proto swarm or forge could solo a tank pre 1.7. Now it actually takes more than one. But the problem now is that CCP made tanks too accessible. I have bad news for you but you are the perfect example of someone that had no clue about tanking in 1.6. in 1.6 tanking required alot of SP, was expensive and it scaled too slow. on the other hand it took 1 week of play to get into proto AV, it scaled too fast and too well and this was a problem. you also could not just press a button and cross the whole map in a few seconds. once you got some map awareness and maxed out that tank SP you became hard to kill. it took 20 seconds of a single tripple modded proto swarm to kill a maximized ARMOR tank without any cover. instead of fixing the scaling & isk cost CCP instead decided to forgoe math and common sense and turned it around. now AV does not scale at all, no matter how much SP you throw into it, the gains are marginal. the tanks scales too well, even a tank with zero SP is now super effective.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1253	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:39:00 - [17] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Harpyja wrote: SPESHULz wrote: It used to take 2 people to kill a tank unless they screwed up pre 1.7. the problem is there are 3 times more tanks. Are you high? Anyone with a proto swarm or forge could solo a tank pre 1.7. Now it actually takes more than one. But the problem now is that CCP made tanks too accessible. I have bad news for you but you are the perfect example of someone that tried out tanking once and gave up instantly, aka zero clue scrub. in 1.6 tanking required alot of SP, was expensive and it scaled too slow. on the other hand it took 1 week of play to get into proto AV, it scaled too fast and too well and this was a problem. you also could not just press a button and cross the whole map in a few seconds. once you got some map awareness and maxed out that tank SP you became hard to kill. it took 20 seconds of a single tripple modded proto swarm to kill a maximized ARMOR tank without any cover. instead of fixing the scaling & isk cost CCP instead decided to forgoe math and common sense and turned it around. now AV does not scale at all, no matter how much SP you throw into it, the gains are marginal. the tanks scales too well, even a tank with zero SP is now super effective. I'm the perfect example of what...? Dude, I've been tanking since my days in Chromosome. And you're talking about armor tanks coughMadrugarscough. Those things were actually balanced. As for shield tanks, it only took one proto forge to sneeze a few times at them and they went down. Also, AV scales just as fast as it did previously. Is a 50% damage gain from militia to proto not enough for you? I wish my hardener scaled up like that from militia to proto (with proto being 60% resists); I think that's the only way to balance things out again: bring back tiered modules. 0 SP and no dedication should not give you the same benefits as 10 million invested and dedicated SP. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5566	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:43:00 - [18] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. Two people to kill one person is not effective. So according to your logic, I should bumrush a proto sentinel with my medium suit and expect to win? Your logic is flawed; it's not however much AV it takes to take out a tank, the problem is the accessibility of tanks. We need all of our passive skills back as a starter: 5% shield/armor per level, 2%/3% turret damage per level, hell, even give us new skills like 5% acceleration and too speed per level, then CCP can nerf all of the attributes, then only level 5s will bring us back to what we are now. And keep prices as they are now. People complain that ISK shouldn't be a limiting factor; OK, I say SP should be the limiting factor. If you're not dedicated to something, you shouldn't receive the benefits. If you have a Six Kin Assault Combat Rifle, Boundless Combat Rifle, Allotek Plasma Cannon, CreoDron Shotgun, or a Remote Explosive, then of course you can 1v1 a heavy. My logic, going 1v1 you should be able to win if you use a weapon designed for the job. The term bum rush never came from my mouth, nor is it an extension of my logic. You could barely bum-rush a medium frame and win. No, SP should not return you to this current state. You cannot purchase an imbalance through the use of SP (or any form of XP & currency for that matter). If a tanker with max skills can be imbalanced, then you'd have to allow every-other role in the game to do the same. For example, the ever-so infamous Slayer Logi gets to keep their insane amount of Tank & Gank abilities, a Conventional Rifle at Level V & Proficiency V gets the same TTK as it does now, and my Swarm Launcher would kill every vehicle in sight because I maxed all of my skills (except Ammo & Specialization) Now do you see the problem with granting an imbalance through SP? AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 680	Posted - 2014.03.10 14:08:00 - [19] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: Although CCP (and everyone else) agree there is an imbalance in the eternal HAV vs AV design space, the only thing that's been hinted as so far is giving war points for damaging, and not destroying HAV's. This of course only treats a symptom of the poorly implemented game mechanic, so I'm eager to see what the dev blog will bring in terms of changes to vehicles. Someone mentioned changing the way hardeners work but I couldn't find a CCP reference to this. And even though they are aware of the imbalance they decided to nerf AV even further I guess CCP thinks AV is still too powerfull...we can still kill HAVs with lots of work and or coordination so lets get rid of this...make HAVs even more resistant to infantry AV . CCP logic sometimes looks strange
Marc Rime 306	Posted - 2014.03.10 14:46:00 - [20] - Quote SPESHULz wrote: It used to take 2 people to kill a tank unless they screwed up pre 1.7. the problem is there are 3 times more tanks. With limited team sizes, I'd rather say that the problem is it only takes one person to operate a tank, while you need several AV to take one out. Affordable tanks don't cause the imbalance, they just make it all the more obvious.

IR Scifi Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 128	Posted - 2014.03.10 15:14:00 - [21] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: Clearly the Swarms are UP, only Packed AV nades work and Forge Guns are viable up to a certain point, but even then Tanks can take on anything without dying. In addition to their powerful modules their speed makes it easier for them to evade all AV weapons. Will CCP fix this in 1.8? And the fact that you didn't even MENTION the plasma cannon shows how great of an av weapon it is...
Sam Booty Valor Coalition 31	Posted - 2014.03.10 15:30:00 - [22] - Quote Before 1.7, new players weren't getting stomped by tanks because AV could take of them. I think CCP should: 1 - nerf the bonuses of vehicles modules similar to what is being done to complex damage modes, i.e., a 50% nerf on all vehicle modules. 2 - nerf the speed of all vehicles. WTF dropships can outrun swarms? Tanks can fly? 3 - increase the strength of turrets installations, to something like 30000 HP. Why so easy to destroy by tanks? That is so stupid. Turrets are so UP and your completely exposed when operating them. 4 - eliminate normal Ambush and keep only OMS Ambush, 5 - make tanks more expensive like 500 mil. CCP did opposite in 1.8. Nerfed damage mods and you can only carry 2 AV grenades instead of 3. As if it wasn't enough to put up with 1.7 for 3 months or so. If tankers come here whining again just make all vehicles the same - militia with no possibility of adding modules, accessible to all, remove them from all modes and make a new tanker/dropship mode to please tanker noobs.
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 291	Posted - 2014.03.10 16:06:00 - [23] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. Two people to kill one person is not effective. So according to your logic, I should bumrush a proto sentinel with my medium suit and expect to win? Your logic is flawed; it's not however much AV it takes to take out a tank, the problem is the accessibility of tanks. We need all of our passive skills back as a starter: 5% shield/armor per level, 2%/3% turret damage per level, hell, even give us new skills like 5% acceleration and too speed per level, then CCP can nerf all of the attributes, then only level 5s will bring us back to what we are now. And keep prices as they are now. People complain that ISK shouldn't be a limiting factor; OK, I say SP should be the limiting factor. If you're not dedicated to something, you shouldn't receive the benefits. Bum rush, no, but a proto medium should be able to kill a proto heavy or else the team with 16 heavies would always win. A militia av'er should be able to battle a militia tank and a proto Av'er should be able to battle a tank with proto fittings. It shouldn't be easy but it shouldn't be 10-1 in favor of the tank winning either. Because, that's why.
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 159	Posted - 2014.03.10 16:08:00 - [24] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Harpyja wrote: Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. Two people to kill one person is not effective. So according to your logic, I should bumrush a proto sentinel with my medium suit and expect to win? Your logic is flawed; it's not however much AV it takes to take out a tank, the problem is the accessibility of tanks. We need all of our passive skills back as a starter: 5% shield/armor per level, 2%/3% turret damage per level, hell, even give us new skills like 5% acceleration and too speed per level, then CCP can nerf all of the attributes, then only level 5s will bring us back to what we are now. And keep prices as they are now. People complain that ISK shouldn't be a limiting factor; OK, I say SP should be the limiting factor. If you're not dedicated to something, you shouldn't receive the benefits. Bum rush, no, but a proto medium should be able to kill a proto heavy or else the team with 16 heavies would always win. A militia av'er should be able to battle a militia tank and a proto Av'er should be able to battle a tank with proto fittings. It shouldn't be easy but it shouldn't be 10-1 in favor of the tank winning either. I have to say that this would be circumstantial, where if the medium suit gets the drop on the heavy, it should have a greater chance of defeating him, however if both the medium and heavy suit see each other and go at it full on, the heavy should have a better chance winning. This of course requires that there's no other outside forces interfere. "One does not simply" look for a scout, it looks for you.
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 291	Posted - 2014.03.10 16:18:00 - [25] - Quote Of course it is circumstantial, every suit and every fitting has it's strength and weaknesses, that is the point of having choices, but they all dropsuits can be beaten by another suit. Tanks right now can really only effectively be dealt with by tanks. Yes, good players can destroy bad tankers, but good tankers don't ever go 1-1 on their kdr, even against better players running AV. Because, that's why.
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 159	Posted - 2014.03.10 16:21:00 - [26] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Of course it is circumstantial, every suit and every fitting has it's strength and weaknesses, that is the point of having choices, but they all dropsuits can be beaten by another suit. Tanks right now can really only effectively be dealt with by tanks. Yes, good players can destroy bad tankers, but good tankers don't ever go 1-1 on their kdr, even against better players running AV. Of course, we're definitely in agreement, the question is how CCP will go about balancing the role of tanks v. infantry? "One does not simply" look for a scout, it looks for you.
Patrick57 5940	Posted - 2014.03.10 17:24:00 - [27] - Quote Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. Two people to kill one person is not effective. Maybe, but two people to kill one tank is reasonable. You can't have some EZMODE AV weapon that destroys everything. I think I'm a forum warrior level 5 :D
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 513	Posted - 2014.03.10 17:46:00 - [28] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. Two people to kill one person is not effective. Maybe, but two people to kill one tank is reasonable. You can't have some EZMODE AV weapon that destroys everything. How about having AV that reasonably acts as a threat to the tanks on the field regardess of number? Is it unreasonable, if Swarms and Plasma Cannons and lower level Forge Guns can't kill a tank that they could at least be effective enough at forcing a retreat? If you're having to give up the majority of your effectiveness against infantry and gain next to nothing in your threat factor to vehicles then there's an issue. The defining balance philosophy was that Tanks were going to be given "windows of opportunity" in which to reasonably attack and then have to force a retreat, this philosophy fails if the Tanks in questions are never actually vulnerable when their hardeners are off, it's only a factor if they come in contact with an opposing Tank. Anything before Proto AV (or a DAU Forge) just isn't effective at even being gauged as a reasonable threat. And if you need to skill into level 4 Forge Gun to be able to effectively take out a Tank that requires 0SP then you're just proving the point that's being made in the opening post. Saga v. Methana Balance
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5575	Posted - 2014.03.10 17:57:00 - [29] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. Two people to kill one person is not effective. Maybe, but two people to kill one tank is reasonable. You can't have some EZMODE AV weapon that destroys everything. That is only reasonable if it requires two people to operate as well. An AV weapon that destroys all vehicles is not "EZ-Mode". That's working as intended. AV users sacrifice their AI ability to be effective against vehicles. Furthermore, there are no "EZ-Mode" AV weapons; though, I am glad that you agree on nerfing the 80GJ Ion Cannons. AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1254	Posted - 2014.03.10 18:12:00 - [30] - Quote Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: I doubt it. Maybe they'll get to it next year, it depends on their vacation schedule... Although, even after 1.8 Forge Guns are very effective when timed correctly. Two Breach Forge Guns shooting at the same tank could almost take him out. Also, Assault Forge Guns are very effective at taking out Militia Tanks. Two people to kill one person is not effective. Maybe, but two people to kill one tank is reasonable. You can't have some EZMODE AV weapon that destroys everything. That is only reasonable if it requires two people to operate as well. An AV weapon that destroys all vehicles is not "EZ-Mode". That's working as intended. AV users sacrifice their AI ability to be effective against vehicles. Furthermore, there are no "EZ-Mode" AV weapons; though, I am glad that you agree on nerfing the 80GJ Ion Cannons. LOL pats his SMG If there is an AV weapon that can kill any vehicle with just one person, then it'd have to be in one full clip. If all you need to do is shoot the vehicle four times in a row, I think that's EZ mode. Absolutely no strategy, no tactics, just make sure all rounds hit. Swarms will be ridiculously easy to use because it's just lock-fire-lock-fire.. etc, and that's me being a noob not knowing how to rapid fire the swarm and empty the clip in a few seconds. Forges take some more skill, but with their pinpoint accuracy and vehicles being big targets, it's not hard to master. The current state of affairs requires more than one clip from a single AV weapon to destroy a tank, which is where it should be. A couple guys working together should effectively not need to reload. It seems to me that AV just doesn't want to get over the fact that they can no longer by themselves take out a tank without reloading. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32



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