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Billi Gene 504	Posted - 2014.03.09 10:04:00 - [1] - Quote as it currently stands: using ISK as a currency within DUST is an impediment to the integration of New Eden's economies. would not using a planetary currency better suit DUST? The SOE epic arc makes mention of planetary currency and its limitations. Exchange rates could be set between isk and 'pk', and monitored and adjusted as needed. Corp. and player wallets would need to be changed to display both currencies and the current exchange rate. Transferral of funds from either platform being the major influence on the galactic exchange rate, faction/(npc) corp standing could be used to further influence the exchange rate, and provide much needed activities for Dust players. Daily/weekly/monthly soft cap's on transferral amounts could be used to introduce tiered tax rates, to further bleed off any substantial funds being moved into DUST's economy. The benefits of removing isk from Dust should be readily apparent, and as far as i can see, the only downfall is time spent coding the change into both games... given that might be a rather large task, and yet loyalty points were once added to EvE, so the task is not without precedent..... this suggestion is of course without any knowledge of current plans for the further integration of DUST into EvE. Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
Hynox Xitio Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 360	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:26:00 - [2] - Quote I'd like the idea of different empires having different currency, but they'd never do that. Also in theory, wouldn't removing ISK also remove an EVE player's capacity to reward Dust players for their work? Sounds like we'd still be getting the short end of the stick. Unleash the Fogwoggler
Dunce Masterson Savage Bullet 31	Posted - 2014.03.09 16:01:00 - [3] - Quote well im all for removing isk from the game entirely and moving to a BPO system with a decent skill point investment to unlock them at least until the game is actually finished and they have delivered all the content they originally promised us.
Billi Gene 509	Posted - 2014.03.10 00:16:00 - [4] - Quote Hynox Xitio wrote: I'd like the idea of different empires having different currency, but they'd never do that. Also in theory, wouldn't removing ISK also remove an EVE player's capacity to reward Dust players for their work? Sounds like we'd still be getting the short end of the stick. hence the exchange rate. already we are looking towards a time when the economies will mesh, to achieve that, there will need to be an exchange rate. EvE players, by DUSTs standards, are rich.. rich beyond compare. My trader alt made an easy 40million isk PROFIT trading t1 ammo in a couple of systems know for heavy pirating, and made that amount over a period of 3 days. I had the minerals in stock, so the only real investment was hauling the ammo thru high sec. Many other people can tell you of much greater profits, and I am only new to the game. To mesh the economies without breaking DUST beyond repair, will require an exchange rate and possibly a transfer cap. Changing DUST to Planetary Currency streamlines the process, and has precedents in New Eden lore. Dunce Masterson wrote: well im all for removing isk from the game entirely and moving to a BPO system with a decent skill point investment to unlock them at least until the game is actually finished and they have delivered all the content they originally promised us. i'd be great to see a Resources and Production skill tree in DUST, but removing currency from the game would end any idea of meshing the New Eden markets. Mercs SHOULD be able to mine small amounts of ore and to refine for minerals. Where Eve players might make 100 units from a single run of a Blueprint, DUST players could make 1 unit from a single run of a DUST Blueprint, again it would create another activity for DUSTers. Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7290	Posted - 2014.03.10 00:41:00 - [5] - Quote Never going to happen. Like the man in the men's warehouse commercials "i'll guarantee it". Implementing a currency conversion system with a different currency to compensate will only complicate matter and the system itself. After all, back in 2012 CCP said that at first ISK transfer between Eve and DUST will be heavily taxed until the economies of both games reach near equilibrium. Once they reach near that equilibrium, taxes will be removed and the economy will be left under the control and whims of the players. That is part of their 10 year plan as announced back in 2012. I have studied enough of the New Eden economics to know that your idea will not work and will only complicate matters further. Besides, according to the lore, ISK is the currency of wealthy people and capsuleers and DUST mercs are that wealthy to begin with. ISK is to Capsuleers and Mercs as a million dollar bill is to bankers. By the way, rumor has it that approximately 1,000-5,000 ISK alone is enough to put a planet dwelling commoner into early retirement. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7290	Posted - 2014.03.10 00:45:00 - [6] - Quote DUST mercs on the other hand, in the future at least, will also have control of the economy and industry just like Eve players and use it to supplement their income. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 794	Posted - 2014.03.10 01:07:00 - [7] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: DUST mercs on the other hand, in the future at least, will also have control of the economy and industry just like Eve players and use it to supplement their income. Edit PS: Even though CCP has screwed up on a lot of things, there is one thing CCP has never screwed up on even since the beginning of Eve development and that is the economy. But its not just a matter of knowledge anymore on economics that will ensure DUST has a stable economy. Its now a matter of having no choice but to get it right. If DUST's economy is imbalanced once the secondary market arrives, it will potentially harm and disrupt the Eve economy as well which is an extremely delicate beast to handle at this stage. Spot on, Maken. There is a reason that more than one masters thesis or monograph has been written using New Eden's virtual economy as a basis. When you keep a PhD Econ guy on the CCP payroll to keep an eye on things that's a hint they take it serious and probably know what they are doing. I think we are going to be in good shape from an economic stand point in the long run. As for mining or acquiring raw materials I actually think we've got a way to get after that with some existing mechanics. Basically, each district and planet should have different raw materials they produce and your corp can get a percentage of those materials on a daily cycle. I this will also go with introducing some good old fashion "Sov Bills" for owning planets and districts to counter passive ISK production. The other way might be with loot from battles...that might be the easiest. You can generate individual loot and corp loot. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Billi Gene 509	Posted - 2014.03.10 01:25:00 - [8] - Quote for sure, after all they employ how many economists now? (yes i know they do, the question is how many?) but at current rates, a merc's ability to generate capital is laughable when compared to a capsuleer's. If this ten year plan includes lv4 missions for mercs then sure i can see some sort of parity.... except that even running proto suits a merc won't get near to the costs involved in running Eve side missions where the cost for ammo would still dwarf said proto suits. Without comparable costing and risk vs reward structures, DUST could never be considered Eve's economically sound equal. The ability to generate large sums of currency by the management of resources and through industrial process is without a doubt the calling card of EvE Online. DUST's role in the greater scheme will always be secondary, specifically DUST's political presence, and by way of merely having TERRAtorial dominion-economic. Merc's may at some point be gifted the ability to procure planetary resources, and maybe even mine in belts, but transportation will always fall to capsuleers. To continue on the idea of planetary currency: 5000isk might set up a civilian for life, but how much is that in planetary currency? i'd wager that there is currently no exchange rate mentioned in-game to answer that question. As such transferral of DUST over to planetary currency would provide its own metric. Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7291	Posted - 2014.03.10 03:37:00 - [9] - Quote I see where you're coming from OP. If DUST were so separate from Eve Online, maybe this idea of yours would have been considered. But since DUST and Eve are not so separate from each other, the ISK system will have to stay. Besides, this will just distract CCP and divert unnecessary resources into something that favors a currency that Eve Online players don't even use or probably don't even care enough to know about it. Let's also not forget that there are now Eve and DUST players sharing corporations as well as faction loyalty points. We are just too connected at this point to consider changing currencies. But I do agree that industry should play a key role in this. CCP announced back in Fanfest 2013 that DUST players will handle the harvesting of materials and then send those materials to Eve players where then they can be used to manufacture infantry gear. This alone will open up a whole new level of meta gaming and a whole new market for DUST players to thrive in. But knowing the complexity out that, it will take time. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 4746	Posted - 2014.03.10 03:55:00 - [10] - Quote Dunce Masterson wrote: well im all for removing isk from the game entirely and moving to a BPO system with a decent skill point investment to unlock them at least until the game is actually finished and they have delivered all the content they originally promised us. You have got to be kidding. You're kidding, right? Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector

Dunce Masterson Savage Bullet 33	Posted - 2014.03.10 05:59:00 - [11] - Quote well has long has the dust team continues to do their own thing like what they are doing with the sentinel bonuses giving the gallente 2 armor resistance bonuses and the armor only 1 then they are not meshing or even existing in EVE online universe they are off creating their own.
Billi Gene 514	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:17:00 - [12] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I see where you're coming from OP. If DUST were so separate from Eve Online, maybe this idea of yours would have been considered. But since DUST and Eve are not so separate from each other, the ISK system will have to stay. Besides, this will just distract CCP and divert unnecessary resources into something that favors a currency that Eve Online players don't even use or probably don't even care enough to know about it. Let's also not forget that there are now Eve and DUST players sharing corporations as well as faction loyalty points. We are just too connected at this point to consider changing currencies. But I do agree that industry should play a key role in this. CCP announced back in Fanfest 2013 that DUST players will handle the harvesting of materials and then send those materials to Eve players where then they can be used to manufacture infantry gear. This alone will open up a whole new level of meta gaming and a whole new market for DUST players to thrive in. But knowing the complexity out that, it will take time. until DUST is opened to EvE's market system, the two games are for all intents and purposes separate. Everything in EvE revolves around market forces, right down to piracy for profit and miner ganking. EvE pilots will adapt, most won't give two hoots, nor should they, items sold on markets will automatically revert to either isk or pk depending on which game you are playing in. Without social interaction between a capsuleer and merc there is no need to consider anything other than your native currency. Corp wallets already divide funds based on game of origin, loyalty points afaik are not corporation wide, rather they are player owned and non-transferrable. Any dreams of laundering isk thru the corp wallet should have dissipated several months ago, when CCP made sure that doing so was impossible, there is no reason to think that corp wallets will suddenly allow unfiltered funds to dilute DUST's economy simply because the markets mesh. As we look forward to a time when the markets will mesh, we are also looking forward to a time when DUST will be flooded with big alliance isk. CCP are well on top of this, and the suggestion to introduce PK is in no way unconsidered in its implications. Mercs gathering resources from districts is as old news as it is far from realisation, it's a 'one day/wishful thinking' scenario. As far as EvE players geting upset about stuff goes, I should bet that if or when mercs take control of districts and PI, that there would be far more outrage than for having all currency between the games regulated via an exchange rate. And aside from a pipe dream of district ownership controlling PI, when peer to peer trading goes live (and assuming that at some point the BPO already seeded into EvE-side NPC corps, become unlocked) DUST corps with access to industrialists will be able to supply gear to their members for next to no real cost. EvE players will Never kowtow to DUST's mercs, but they will certainly test the system to its limits in order to identify weaknesses that are ripe for abuse and profit. EvE players, even if/when PI goes to the mercs, will still control the shipping lanes, production lines and research facilities. Most DUSTers might have no idea about what that means, but essentially it means that Capsuleers hold all the cards, and mercs both lore wise and mechanically, are stuck in the role of the lower class in a caste system that for the love of a developer for its main client base, will most likely never change. So really this is all about DUST? yes.... the last thing we need in DUST is having to be beholden to the alliance politics and shenanigans that most of DUST's player base not only will not know about, but won't want to know about. how can we set this up to have as little as possible impact on a EvE and DUST's market Economy, whilst still having a system in place for the movement of credit and goods through both games, that is transparent and easy to manage and make changes to? Introduce a separate currency for DUST, effectively reinforcing the class divide. Give DUST a separate economy then tie it into EVE's Market. DUST would effectively become a nation of consumers protected by an exchange rate monitored by an impartial body interested in the greater health of both nations. DUST's planetary currency could then be tied into empire politics and thus it would be that even funds moved from null would have a rationale based in game lore for the depletion of excess funds, the limitation on funds movable and a moving point exchange rate and tax system. or at least... that is how the idea goes..... Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 795	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:23:00 - [13] - Quote I understand where the OP is coming from. Think about it, we already have an exchange rate, we just have no "official" way to transfer money between DUST and Eve. But even unofficially the exchange rate does exist, what is the lore behind it? Why does ISK in Eve convert to less ISK in Dust? It's the same ISK right? Answer is, because it has to or else you break Dust (Eve is in no danger.) Logically you cannot achieve equilibrium between the 2 games. In Eve you fund super expensive star ships but in Dust you are funding only a soldier. They can never be similar in price because it makes no sense. A different currency has built in exchange rates, which is logical and explains disparity between Dust & Eve. It's definitely a hurdle to the player, could over complicate things, plus could really hurt continuity. However, it's the easiest way to make sense of the universe. Sure you could let materials from a planets serve as the exchange. The issue here is that in Eve those materials would have to be of so little value but remarkably rare. Rare to create a market and little value as to not flood Dust with too much Isk way too fast. Economics wouldn't allow this.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7294	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:25:00 - [14] - Quote It doesn't matter at this point. ISK is here to stay and it's not going to be replaced by some currency that no one knows or even cares about. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Billi Gene 514	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:26:00 - [15] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: Sure you could let materials from a planets serve as the exchange. The issue here is that in Eve those materials would have to be of so little value but remarkably rare. Rare to create a market and little value as to not flood Dust with too much Isk way too fast. Economics wouldn't allow this. this point here is why Merc controlled PI is a pipe dream.... Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
Billi Gene 514	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:27:00 - [16] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: It doesn't matter at this point. ISK is here to stay and it's not going to be replaced by some currency that no one knows or even cares about. planetary currency is actually talked about in certain EvE missions..... Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7295	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:30:00 - [17] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: But even unofficially the exchange rate does exist, what is the lore behind it? Why does ISK in Eve convert to less ISK in Dust? It's the same ISK right? Answer is, because it has to or else you break Dust (Eve is in no danger.) It's not that ISK in Eve has to convert to less ISK in Dust, it's that Dust at the moment has no balanced ISK faucet or sink. We lack PvE and a Bounty System as well as the ability to buy/sell items to/from other players within Dust. And our only source of revenue is just grinding matches and locked PC districts which only a few corps have access to. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7295	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:31:00 - [18] - Quote Billi Gene wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: It doesn't matter at this point. ISK is here to stay and it's not going to be replaced by some currency that no one knows or even cares about. planetary currency is actually talked about in certain EvE missions..... But nobody cares about it because it's not something they use directly. It has no benefit to Eve players other than just being lore. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Billi Gene 514	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:34:00 - [19] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Billi Gene wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: It doesn't matter at this point. ISK is here to stay and it's not going to be replaced by some currency that no one knows or even cares about. planetary currency is actually talked about in certain EvE missions..... But nobody cares about it because it's not something they use directly. It has no benefit to Eve players other than just being lore. i dont understand you fascination with whether someone cares about something as a basis for its inherent value. I don't really care for or indeed particularly like gravity... but that doesnt change its fundamental role in my life and indeed in the continuing operation of the solar system that i live in and one could speculate that it does indeed have some say in the ongoing day to day of the galaxy and possibly the universe.... but to many people really care about gravity.... (?) you tell me... Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7295	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:35:00 - [20] - Quote Billi Gene wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Billi Gene wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: It doesn't matter at this point. ISK is here to stay and it's not going to be replaced by some currency that no one knows or even cares about. planetary currency is actually talked about in certain EvE missions..... But nobody cares about it because it's not something they use directly. It has no benefit to Eve players other than just being lore. i dont understand you fascination with whether someone cares about something as a basis for its inherent value. I don't really care for or indeed particularly like gravity... but that doesnt change its fundamental role in my life and indeed in the continuing operation of the solar system that i live in and one could speculate that it does indeed have some say in the ongoing day to day of the galaxy and possibly the universe.... but to many people really care about gravity.... (?) you tell me... I see what you did there. I'm not falling for that trap. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor

Billi Gene 514	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:42:00 - [21] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Billi Gene wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Billi Gene wrote: [quote=Maken Tosch]blahblah bahl BLAAAH..... blahblahblah..blah blaaah I see what you did there. I'm not falling for that trap. and yet the logic is sound is it not? we dont need people to fall in love with and want to marry a financial system in an online game. we do need to make sure that the game runs smoothly? edit:blaah Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 442	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:53:00 - [22] - Quote If they remove isk from Dust_514, I'd take it as a sign that CCP is withdrawing their resources from Dust and intend to let it die. Economy is supposed to be a big thing in this game... if it ever gets here... I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
Billi Gene 514	Posted - 2014.03.10 07:58:00 - [23] - Quote medomai grey wrote: If they remove isk from Dust_514, I'd take it as a sign that CCP is withdrawing their resources from Dust and intend to let it die. Economy is supposed to be a big thing in this game... if it ever gets here... and what could possibly be holding it back? Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 795	Posted - 2014.03.10 09:02:00 - [24] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Galvan Nized wrote: But even unofficially the exchange rate does exist, what is the lore behind it? Why does ISK in Eve convert to less ISK in Dust? It's the same ISK right? Answer is, because it has to or else you break Dust (Eve is in no danger.) It's not that ISK in Eve has to convert to less ISK in Dust, it's that Dust at the moment has no balanced ISK faucet or sink. We lack PvE and a Bounty System as well as the ability to buy/sell items to/from other players within Dust. And our only source of revenue is just grinding matches and locked PC districts which only a few corps have access to. You will always have an exchange...No matter how you open the flood gates. Simply because 1 ship does not equal 1 suit or tank etc. Even with PVE it will most likely be more profitable to run missions in Eve because they have to support their ships. Your going to create an exchange somehow somewhere, someone will assume that 1 ship equals 100 (or whatever number) suits and will set rate based on that. Call it an exchange or call it a tax (again, in lore, why would it be taxed?). Opening the flood gates or allowing Isk transfers from Eve will absolutely shatter Dust. Everyone will be running proto gear absolutely all the time, it's already a huge problem from PC. A different currency at least defends from from the Eve issue.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1806	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:05:00 - [25] - Quote One reason why this could never work: when you buy stuff today you're buying it from the same marketplace as the eve players, stocked with infinite quantity npc sell orders for everything we can possible buy. Similar to now skill books are stocked in eve newbie systems. We're already part of the New Eden economy, we just aren't able to influence prices yet. To put in a new currency they'd need to create an entirely new market system, separate from the main marketplace. The proposed exchange rate is functionally identical to the isk transfer tax they told us about at fanfest last year, which makes the idea a giant pile of work that complicates the economy for no real benefit.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7303	Posted - 2014.03.10 15:55:00 - [26] - Quote The one important factor you're ignoring here is DUST players will also, just like Eve players, eventually influence market prices. If transfer of ISK is ever made from Eve to DUST and the wealth of players shoots up, so will the prices of items sold. The laws of supply and demand will kick in especially when its Eve players who will initially negotiate the price before DUST players finally stock up and compete with market pvp. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 91	Posted - 2014.03.10 21:26:00 - [27] - Quote this will completely wreck our upcoming player trading. anyways, each faction does have their own currency in a way. its called loyalty points. and with them you can get gear better than the gear at the regular market. shocker, isnt it? Assault Gk.0 Gallente Federation Patriot General of the Gallente Marine Corps. Look us up if you want to join.
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 484	Posted - 2014.03.11 01:57:00 - [28] - Quote they still wont allow exchanging of currency between dust and eve because it would inflate plex prices and potentially decrease the active eve players Proud Christian Free stuff for the next account you make:)
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7311	Posted - 2014.03.11 02:25:00 - [29] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: they still wont allow exchanging of currency between dust and eve because it would inflate plex prices and potentially decrease the active eve players Not yet. CCP confirmed they will allow transfer of ISK in the future between Eve and DUST but that will only happen once the two economies stabilize when merged. That won't happen for at least another year I bet. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Billi Gene 515	Posted - 2014.03.11 06:29:00 - [30] - Quote General12912 wrote: this will completely wreck our upcoming player trading. anyways, each faction does have their own currency in a way. its called loyalty points. and with them you can get gear better than the gear at the regular market. shocker, isnt it? dust already has a split currency market place, thats where you get your faction items, which are really just aurum stuffs without the cashshop, shocker i know If they are the same markets, then they code is already in place to allow for split currency. DUST gear is found under the infantry gear subsection of EVE's market. All that remains is to establish an exchange rate, which is something that is already on the books. The only reason to establish a new coin for DUST, is to Allow the Merging of Both Markets, thereby bringing forward the day when mercs can both buy AND sell gear on the market-at player driven market prices. deepfried salad gilliam wrote: they still wont allow exchanging of currency between dust and eve because it would inflate plex prices and potentially decrease the active eve players DUST has added to Eve's player base, and CCP control the price of PLEX via its real world cost. As far as i can see, CCP's assertion that they will only allow isk transfer when the economies reach parity, was not a joke. DUST desperately needs more content, and player trading is just that. I'd be a fool to think that this idea is 'the only solution', but it at least is a suggestion towards further integration of both games. Don't just poo poo this or any idea because you don't like it, segregating the economies may well be the easiest solution to bridging the absolute wealth divide. Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P



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