if we said no to proto dropsuits, there would be uproar and mass quittings on the forums and the world would end while CCP has to sticky suicide helpline numbers to GD

Can anyone outline how RPG tiers can be balanced in a low player count FPS?

I'm not trolling here, I simply can't see how it can be accomplished.

As long as those mlt and std AV cost as much as current proto AV.

To be honest, I would be clapping if CCP did that, but they don't have what it takes.


On topic, if for proto vehicles you mean things like the Falchion, Vayu, Chakkram, etc... then yes.

If you mean Surya and Sagaris, then no.

More options, less power creep.

You already got power creep with proto dropsuits, extra slots which = extra hp/dmg and pg/cpu to fit it while passive skills enhance the dropsuit more

Surya and Sagaris were our adv tanks which had more slots and cpu/pg but with no skill for each level

I agree. That's the reason I said I would be clapping if CCP removed current proto suits. They are a problem.

Introducing the Surya and Sagaris would mean compounding that problem, not resolving it.



Most of the qq in the tank vs AV threads come from people complaining that either AV is either too powerful or too weak against standard vehicles.

But balancing different tiers of basic/advanced/proto AV vs basic/advanced/proto tanks is impossible. As people have said before in this thread, something is always going to give, with the consequent QQ.

What people should be asking for is for the removal of tiers in AV. Right now we have a basic Forge Gun at level 1, an advanced Forge Gun at level 3 that is better at everything than the basic one, and a proto Forge Gun at level 5 that is better at everything than the previous two. No one uses lesser tiered AV unless they are short on money. There is no point.

But if we removed the tiers in AV, we could have the Breach FG variant at level 1, the regular Forge Gun at level 3, and the Assault FG at level 5. Just an example. Each of those balanced against the standard vehicles.

Then we could have the standard HAV at level 1, a variant like the Falchion/Vayu at level 3, and another variant (not upgrade) at level 5.

Since they are variants and not upgrades, the level 3 and 5 tanks would still be balanced against the AV. Easier to balance, all variants would have a use, no power creep.


But CCP does not agree with me, so whatever.

Removal of tiers means less choice

I have proto FG, i use them because they get the job done and im also rich enough to use them consistantly till the end of time, if we had matchmaking by gear i would have to use basic FG in a basic room but i wouldnt be against proto everyone would be on an equal footing

Also the basic/adv/proto tiers are needed to an extent, you play because you enjoy the game but also so that you can unlock your fave suit and gun which will help out at even basic levels, i still play because im waiting for pilot suits and proto hulls and also specalized vehicles because it gives me something to work for

I have the option with infantry with working towards logi 5 for example but i dont have it with vehicles, hell we only have basic vehicles apart from the ADS which have no bonus skills attached to the vehicle, logi LAV/scout LAV and LOGI DS/ENFORCERS did

The power creep was worse back in closed beta, my proto suit had more base hp than the adv/basic suits and tbh i didnt mind that, it gave me a reason to skill up but also it was expenisve with the suit i think costing about 300k with nothing on it so in todays terms 1 death means im in the red instantly with no weapon or mods on it but i did like it, sure it made it hard for basic to kill me but we got warbarge strikes now and working tanks

Why less choice? You have said yourself that you would use the proto FG all the time, unless other factors like matchmaking by gear, or lack of isk, forced you to pick up a standard/basic FG.

In the example I made, all the variants (regular, breach, assault) would still exist. I would only remove the FG that you are not going to use unless forced anyway (basic and advanced tiers). So the choices you would have would still be the same.

The incentive to unlock new and better things would still be there. Keep the tiers in modules, and don't change the skill system. A vet would still have an advantage over a newer player in the same suit/hull.

But instead of unlocking a hull that is better at everything than your old hull (which would make you to never use your old hull unless forced, like above), you would unlock new variants, new bonuses and new/better modules. New ways of playing the game.

I agree with you that we need more variants for the existing vehicles, new vehicles, and the Amarr/Minmatar line of vehicles.

And yes, the standard HAV, LAVs and dropships should have a bonus too. And the advanced/proto variants should have a different bonus than the standard version. To make them, you know, more variant. :p

But that's a different discussion.

I think that distance makes us remember closed beta as something better than it really was. We only had fun because it was new and we still had the illusion that CCP knew what they were doing. But let's be honest here, it sucked. Dust has always been lacking. Closed beta, open beta and now.

I understand that you have fun with the game being designed this way. A lot of the people I play with agree with you, and I can see your points. But I can't help but think that everything would be more fun the other way. We will have to agree to disagree, I guess.

I don't think you have cause to worry, to be honest. CCP certainly loves tiers.