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An analysis of the GÇÿexpanding the arsenalGÇÖ devblog and TTK in 1.8

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Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2006	Posted - 2014.03.09 12:35:00 - [91] - Quote You, sir, are the most proficient and constructive like-farmer this forum, nay, the world, has ever seen. I'm thinking that I'm going to be using my scrambler pistol as my primary weapon in 1.8 with the rifle for some emergency firepower. Assault ak.0 w/ScR+ScP 4LYFE Forum Warrior Level Two. (GëºGêçGëª)/
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10800	Posted - 2014.03.09 12:57:00 - [92] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: You, sir, are the most proficient and constructive like-farmer this forum, nay, the world, has ever seen. I'm thinking that I'm going to be using my scrambler pistol as my primary weapon in 1.8 with the rifle for some emergency firepower. I was rather generous and gave Sgt Kirk some likes as well. I don't think using an SCP as a sidearm to accompany another laser weapon is a great idea though. It's an excellent weapon, but the proficiency changes are going to hurt people with the same affinity on their weapons. IMO, the Magsec would be a superb sidearm for the SCR. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
LT Shanx OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 29	Posted - 2014.03.09 13:08:00 - [93] - Quote Waahhh... I read the whole thing, but more surprisingly, Sgt Kirk and Arkena Wyrnspire are the same person?! Why can't forumers be more easily identifiable? Look at me, I'm LT Shanx but I am also LT SHANKS.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2007	Posted - 2014.03.09 13:19:00 - [94] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: You, sir, are the most proficient and constructive like-farmer this forum, nay, the world, has ever seen. I'm thinking that I'm going to be using my scrambler pistol as my primary weapon in 1.8 with the rifle for some emergency firepower. I was rather generous and gave Sgt Kirk some likes as well. I don't think using an SCP as a sidearm to accompany another laser weapon is a great idea though. It's an excellent weapon, but the proficiency changes are going to hurt people with the same affinity on their weapons. IMO, the Magsec would be a superb sidearm for the SCR. ScP is more thematic Although I will definitely give the Magsec a go. Assault ak.0 w/ScR+ScP 4LYFE Forum Warrior Level Two. (GëºGêçGëª)/
Cardio Therapy The Awesome Gang 4	Posted - 2014.03.09 13:38:00 - [95] - Quote After reading carefully all that Arkena said, I have to agree with all. These were exactly my thoughts and the reason to open the forum to write exactly this stuff. After I read the weapon changes in 1.8 published by CCP I got to one conclusion, and it is very simple: AR is almost dead, AR variants are already dead since long time and they will be even deeper buried. When there was a discussion the RR and CR are overpowered they were compared to the AR. By nerfing th AR with them they will be still OP vs AR. Many people run damage mods and many will continue. Most of the players are relying on armor tanking because of the damage mods. The weapons doing increased dmg to armor will be even more efficient. I donGÇÖt see any future for the AR and variants. I will wait for 1.9 to see if the **** will be fixed and most probably will change the game until then.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 690	Posted - 2014.03.09 13:56:00 - [96] - Quote Croned wrote: Can we get a blue tag in here to confirm that at least someone from CCP has read this? A post was edited by Logibro so it has been seen and probably read. The Ion Pistol was something I was quite shocked to see how much it falls behind. What I think is most interesting is how similar the weapon DPS's are to one another. I am curious if the DPS of the weapons were the things that were looked at as part of the balancing because of how close they tend to fall in line. There are some weird ones like the laughably bad Breach or the semi-automatics that have huge DPS potentials but can probably never attain them. Maybe it is just a silly coincidence? With the Ion Pistol, I think the most interesting thing is the total damage per clip compared to the other weapons. 600 damage isn't even enough to kill some naked basic assault suits if they have high enough levels of the +5% Shield/Armor skills. I didn't realize that the charged shot would instantly overheat the weapon. If it didn't, you might have seen some interesting strategies with it. It would act like a shotgun at that point; sneak up on someone with a charge ready, pop them in the chest, swap to AR to take them out. Would have been like Halo's Plasma Pistol and Battle Rifle combo. Now it just doesn't make any sense how no one raised their hands when those numbers were being thrown about internally. Thanks for the analysis of the information. This shows that Dev Blogs and patch notes need to be released earlier so players have time to look at it and give calm, cool feedback. The Caldari Assault bonus might be changed because most everyone immediately stated that it was nearly worthless when it was leaked out a month ago. If everything had been released a month ago, maybe some glaring problems like the Ion Pistol, Breach AR, and Magsec might have been remedied.
Dagger-Two Tharumec Villore Accords 254	Posted - 2014.03.09 20:23:00 - [97] - Quote Humpity Hump, this thread needs a bump! ...and a blue tag Playing since 1st batch of closed beta keys.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10828	Posted - 2014.03.09 20:33:00 - [98] - Quote Dagger-Two wrote: Humpity Hump, this thread needs a bump! ...and a blue tag I'm pretty sure blue tags generally come during the week. If they come at all. Given what happened the last time I bothered to write a thread like this, no blue tag is forthcoming. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 305	Posted - 2014.03.09 20:55:00 - [99] - Quote If I may, I will add an addendum here about heavies for 1.8 that I originally wrote under another thread. Here's my issue with these new heavies. First of all, like some other guys said in here already, HMG is taking no nerfs at all. That may eventually cause a problem a long the lines with being able to get into and take over objectives in skirmishes. Get a couple heavies camping a letter (particularly in a dom) and you aren't going to be getting in there any time soon most likely without some sort of vehicle or a ton of people. HMGs already cut down people pretty good the way it is. You can have a TTK increase all you want, it still will equal out in the end back to what we have now, but this isn't the main problem. The main problem with HMGs currently is that slowdown or "sloth" effect when hit by continuous streams of bullets, completely stopping any player's ability to get behind cover once they get fired upon by an HMG. Second, we're all taking a grenade nerf, both actively through a reduction in the number we can carry and also subtly through heavy explosive resistances. I like to use core nades at times. They especially are helpful when you have heavies that spawn in around an objective you're hacking and try to get the jump on you. Bring down their shields with a CR or ScR while jumping around while cooking a core nade, toss that sucker and a lot of times you can then finish them off. No longer possible with the explosive resistances. I'll just use the base damage for a rough estimate, take 25% off of 600 and you're already down to 450. You get a sentinel that is using brick tank with around 1300 armor, you aren't even going to get through half his HP. Then you combine that with rifle nerfs, proficiency nerfs, and damage mod nerfs, and things are gonna get ugly. I can say the same with REs. Take 25% off of 1500 and you're down to 1,125. Fully tanked Amarr sentinels will easily resist RE blasts without an issue, and if their shields full to begin with, more than one RE. Lastly we have the resistance bonuses. I'll use Gallente and Amarr as those have the rail/projectile resistance. For any engagements at any range, most people are going to be still using RR or CR as an armor counter weapon (although we'll see somewhat of a return of MD I'm sure). If people using these Amarr/Gallente sentinels hold true to the heavy idea and use HMGs, then this whole ordeal will not even be an issue, however as this last event has shown, we now have plenty of scrubs that use sentinel fatsuits with RR. Taking this resistance bonus into account, that's 10 to 15% for projectile and rail weapons. This means that any medium suit, even a tanked logi suit with RR with the max out of around 1000 eHP still will fail miserably in a standard engagement with a sentinel suit. It's plain mathematics. If they notice each other at around the same time (fighting even at the longest optimal range available), or even if the logi suit gets a slight jump on the Amarr sentinel from a flank, he is still going to loose. 1000 eHP is not going to outdo around 2000 eHP. It's as simple as that. That is just from what we have now already pre 1.8 Now you factor in that extra 10 or 15% resistance and that Amarr or Gallente sentinel will trump that logi or other medium suit every single time. Like the OP said above, that 15% makes for an extra 210 more HP. Does not seem like much, but when we are dealing with these high of numbers, that is a ton. That sentinel will be afforded at least an extra few seconds (with the new reduced TTK) due to that bonus while the other medium suits have none. If these new heavies were only to use HMGs, forges, or sidearms, then I could easily buy into the argument that they aren't overpowered as the argument of "well fight them from outside of their optimal and you'll have no trouble" would be true. However, I know full well, with these new bonuses, light weapon heavies, particularly the RR heavies will become even more prevalent than they are now and it will be much worse than currently. TL;DR 1.Heavy resistances to explosives will cause huge problems when using REs and grenades to counter their armor 2. Simple numerics combined with new bonuses means in an equal situation and even a slight disadvantage, light weapon heavies will prevail every single time against scout and medium suits. 3. If heavies only functioned optimally at CQC - lower mid ranges (like they are designed to) none of these issues would even present a problem. 4. I feel that one bonus or the other should have been used for heavies. Either they gain a resistance to certain weapon types based upon race, OR resistance to explosives. Getting both at once I feel leads to a huge discrepancy for other suit users and as you said earlier Arkena, heavies will reign supreme, particularly light weapon and HMG sentinels. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10841	Posted - 2014.03.09 21:52:00 - [100] - Quote LEHON Xeon wrote: -snip- Excellent post is excellent. I can't +1 you enough. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 877	Posted - 2014.03.09 22:04:00 - [101] - Quote Yep LEON pretty much laid it out there and more rationally with a great deal less swearing than I would've used. Combined with LAVs mostly eliminating the Sentinels big weakness and we have a mass influx of heavies come 1.8 Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Patrick57 5901	Posted - 2014.03.09 22:12:00 - [102] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Patrick57 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: -snip gizoogle- I had to. Knight convinced me. >_>
Vell0cet SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1053	Posted - 2014.03.10 02:29:00 - [103] - Quote First let me start by saying that there will certainly be further balancing necessary after 1.8. I'm sure CCP realizes this. My hope is that 1.9 will hit 3-4 weeks after 1.8 and will only contain small, incremental balancing tweaks based on how things are play tested once 1.8 goes live. I think people are underestimating the blaster AR. It has 2 major advantages, laser-like precision, and big clips. In a low TTK game those don't mean a whole lot, but in a high TTK game, those differences are huge. Every bullet will count, and spray/pray will be much less effective. This gives the AR a lot of advantages in a higher TTK game. The blaster AR also has a fairly well-balanced damage profile. I expect a lot more shield buffers in 1.8 as the recharge mechanic will be much more useful in longer engagements where you can duck in-and-out of cover, also because damage mods will be less attractive. I think people are being premature in pronouncing the death of the blaster AR based on spreadsheet data. We really need to see how things play out when this patch goes live. I also think damage mods will still have an important place. In some roles, having more gank is much more advantageous to more tank. It is the only way to boost DPS against your weapon's weaker damage type. As a fan of Amarr weapons, I know I will be relying on them more than ever to chew through armor before overheating. A larger shield buffer won't help me if I can't eat through my target's armor before he ducks into cover to rep up. Regarding heavies being OP, I expect scouts to help substantially with this. I'm hoping to see more paper-rock-scissors where heavies beat mediums which beat scouts which beat heavies. That's an interesting dynamic that keeps things fun with checks/balances. I like heavies being slow, tough behemoths that require teamwork to truly shine. My biggest concern is the nerfs to AV grenades making the LAV-Heavy combo way too OP. AV grenades should be an effective counter to LAVs (especially cheap/BPO versions). If heavies do end up being OP, I think nerfing their turn speed would be a good place to start. Overall I've never been more excited/optimistic for a release since beta. Having a viable LR, and a healthy TTK will be fantastic, and make fights so much more tactical and fun. We will certainly need more balancing tweaks, but I think they can be smaller in scope and much easier to manage +- 2-3% here and there. Also AV/vehicle balance seriously needs to be addressed. Best PvE idea ever!
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 616	Posted - 2014.03.10 16:12:00 - [104] - Quote Well written analysis! I'm afraid that CCP isn't even listening, though, and the changes are probably already set in stone. I honestly don't understand why CCP doesn't realize that weapons with short ranges need much higher dps to compensate! The downfall of using an AR over any of the other rifles is that it simply stops being effective past a certain range. The same cannot be said for a long range rifle. It operates just as effectively at close range as it does at long range. AR, Ion, etc. need superior dps (~390 dps) to make it a worthwhile alternative to a long range rifle. "But it'll be too powerful at close range! We'll get killed every time!" Well, yeah. That's the idea. Its the same idea that you had when you selected a RR and thought "I can kill them at range and they can't even reach me!" >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
Dagger-Two Tharumec Villore Accords 254	Posted - 2014.03.11 00:55:00 - [105] - Quote To the top! Playing since 1st batch of closed beta keys.
Dreniella Expert Intervention Caldari State 32	Posted - 2014.03.11 05:45:00 - [106] - Quote You should make a fansite/blog and write these things there tbh.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10892	Posted - 2014.03.11 07:03:00 - [107] - Quote Dreniella wrote: You should make a fansite/blog and write these things there tbh. Why bother when I can farm likes for my glorious like counter instead? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
NobIesse Oblige Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 175	Posted - 2014.03.11 07:58:00 - [108] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Dreniella wrote: You should make a fansite/blog and write these things there tbh. Why bother when I can farm likes for my glorious like counter instead? Stahp! We're going to go broke paying your forum warrior salary! I'm CEO, Bitch Incentivizing n00bs to carry me cir.12/13
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1174	Posted - 2014.03.11 16:59:00 - [109] - Quote This is lacking a lot of key information. I think the logic is sound and I generally enjoyed the posts (Needs some proofreading, check the statements made under DPS list with the DPS list, also check sidearm ranges for SMG and Scrambler Pistol, lastly the clip size mentioned for Scrambler Pistol can only be obtained via level 5 operation skill). Please note the items below might not "decide" anything but may adjust severity (like how badly OP something might be). Items I think should be considered along with above arguments: 1. More dev blogs are inbound. Obviously you are aware of this and I'm sure will update your analysis accordingly. Also while this is listed separately many items I mention may be involved in these dev blogs 2. New Gear Wobble - New suits are releasing, some new sidearms, and a new equipment which is scout focused. Expect people to pile into new hotness. This gets... fuzzy to incorporate and should mostly be kept in mind rather than written. 3. I'm not going to argue that the AR does not have a proper place. However keep in mind the new suits and damage mod nerf. The new suits will raise the average shield strength you encounter permanently. The damage mod nerf does indeed mean more shields on average as well. At this moment an AR/SCR analysis should always include current and future average shield/armor ratios. Same applies to sidearms. 4. Magsec - As mentioned range is critical in DUST. However so is function. Two factors in the RR charge time mitigation is range (they are doing less DPS or can't touch you) and prediction/throttle. Keep in mind what a sidearm normally is. When are they drawn, when are they ignored, what weapons you'll be up against at those moments, and expected ranges at those moments. 5. Magsec 2 - The above assumes conventional weapons. The Magsec is outclassed by even the AR, however rather than comparing the capacity of the Magsec to other sidearms or light weapons. Re-compare unconventional fittings with the new Magsec equipped. Consider AV weapons with what amounts to a gimped AR as primary. Consider the MD with the same. The proto magsec has an optimal near my stock HMG's effective. The Magsec SMG may be about to make many builds more viable as a gap filler rather than a backup. You'll definitely die more from the Magsec than any other Sidearm but my opinion is it will be because new builds that depend on it will gain popularity where the player would have otherwise ran a normal rifle build. 6. Ion Pistol - I'm waiting on cooldown time before judgement, but have concerns regardless. 7. Damage mods - In addition to announced reasons keep in mind 1 of the new scout suits, 1 of the new commandos, and 2 of the new sentinels will have more high slots obtainable than pre 1.8. Additionally potential increases in Flux grenade use or laser rifle use should be considered. Lastly if they were going to announce changes to armor/health modules I would imagine they would do so when they do the suit dev blogs. 8. Proficiency changes - This should be considered along with the damage mods. My understanding is proficiency skill stacks with damage mods. Thus lvl 5 proficiency with 1 complex damage mod currently adds an extra 1.5% or half a basic. Tiny but notable. With 2 you get decently close to a basic as bonus. Additionally you're mentioning this will encourage dual tanking, however many other factors apply. For one currently RR and CR are most popular which are armor effective. Additionally most suits aren't set up for "proper" dual tanking. Mercs may shore up weakness but suits favor one or the other. Additionally these two items play into each other for Commandos and Assaults as popular weapons may lead to popular suit variants. Also damage type modifiers stack on the others I believe. Which is why the scrambler pistol has a 450% bonus to SHIELD head shots, and a 240% bonus to armor headshots (base 300%). So a current proficiency bonus of 15% on a scrambler rifle is a total of 138% against shields. This also stacks with damage modules (1 for 152%, 2 for 164%). This should also be considered when examining the damage mod buff, the rebalancing of the laser rifle, and the new shield suits. 9. Suit changes - Shield recovery buffs are inbound for some caldari and minmatar suits. Gallante will have natural healing ability. 10. Equipment changes - although I have only heard it from players my understanding is an equipment nerf is inbound to balance new logi skills that have been shown by devs (not sure if official). This will have a circular balance with grenades. Less grenades, more equipment, more equipment more grenades. However if shields are a big deal then flux supplies will be important. This is also important in how it will impact the availability of armor repairs for an armor tanker, both from heal hives and nerfed repair tools (on average) 11. Weapon/armor analysis in laboratory settings aren't solid data - Fights infrequently begin simultaneously, additionally those are battles that a more competent player ignores. They should also be analysed as a sequence. you may frequently encounter weakened enemies, or be weak yourself. An extender is good, however wasted when you are not being struck. When weighing the value of damage, health, and recovery the conditions are tantamount. Examples being sniping, keeping together, running support, hacking, room clearing, potential FF, running from enemies, Flux presence, presence of cover, enemy skill level (can be anticipated in PC), supply depot availability and flanking. Even the scanner has an impact as you are more likely to be "ambushed" in a scanner heavy environment or vice versa. While laboratory testing is neat and tidy, I do not think it can provide either exact results or demonstrate trends as it can not be proven as an acceptable average. As mentioned this isn't intended as being critical or it would be longer, appreciated the read Subdreddit Director Leading contributor to the Great Text Wall of Subdreddit
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2178	Posted - 2014.03.11 22:28:00 - [110] - Quote While I see your point with the damage mods, at the same time. 1) If Damage Mods provide more power than a shield extender then the shield extender becomes obselete 2) This creates the current shield/armour inbalance because Shield Extender are useless against damage mods, while armour is not. 3) By nerfing Damage Mods shields now become relevamt again, a Shield Tanked suit is now NOT at a disadvantage. 4) HOWEVER gallantean suits need reduced CPU, amd Caldari reduced PG to discourage brick tanking these suits. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10926	Posted - 2014.03.11 22:41:00 - [111] - Quote @Rynx Sinfar: Decent post noted. Let's talk about some of those points. 3. Due to dual tanking, I see the average shield and armour strength of most suits being quite similar as most people stack HP modules. 4+5. That's pretty much exactly it. The MSMG doesn't directly outperform rifles, it won't be replacing any of them - but it can give a huge amount of flexibility by providing what amounts to only a slightly weaker version of a rifle as a sidearm. As you noted, that lets you run AV weapons, shotguns, etc with much more general versatility. 8. The idea of some suits not being as suited for dual tanking doesn't work here. Damage mods and shield mods directly compete for the same slots and resources - so any suit that can use damage mods and armour plates can dual tank. And most can, really. There aren't really any suits that can't be feasibly dual tanked. 10. Very minor, borderline irrelevant. 11. Of course. It can be quite obvious what will work best all other factors being equal, though, and that's really the point of this - to see what can be predicted from what we have. Generally, if something is better when things are equal, unless there's some unconventional balancing mechanic for it, then that item will simply generally be better. Some of your post seems a little confused. You list 'items that should be considered along with the other arguments' but then list as one of those concerns the ion pistol, without commenting on any actual information missing from the arguments (apart from possibly the cooldown time, which makes no difference). For those initial things you pointed out: Source for sidearm ranges: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=136371&find=unread They're based on the standard ranges, as the entire thing is based off STD gear. An analysis of all the tiers would be overly long and pointless, as there's no real difference. So these are correct. I see no discrepancies in the DPS charts. You're quite correct on the SCP skill. That certainly is an oversight on my part, and it'll be tweaked when next I redo this. But I'm slightly baffled by your assertion that this post is 'missing a lot of key information' when really the only thing here is the SCP operations skill, which is a fairly minor edit. Monkey MAC wrote: While I see your point with the damage mods, at the same time. 1) If Damage Mods provide more power than a shield extender then the shield extender becomes obselete 2) This creates the current shield/armour inbalance because Shield Extender are useless against damage mods, while armour is not. 3) By nerfing Damage Mods shields now become relevamt again, a Shield Tanked suit is now NOT at a disadvantage. 4) HOWEVER gallantean suits need reduced CPU, amd Caldari reduced PG to discourage brick tanking these suits. 1 - Sure it does. That's why they should be at a similar power level. 2 - I don't think so. A shield extender is not useless against a damage mod, nor is it useless in comparison to a damage mod. The topic of shield vs armour is a complex one, but it's not exactly this specifically. 3 - Not quite how this works. It's not that a shield tanked suit is no longer at a disadvantage (it was on relatively even footing in the first place in terms of direct comparisons between the two) it's that damage modded suits are now definitely at a disadvantage and you should use a shield extender instead. 4 - No. This would require a comprehensive rebalance of module costs to actually work properly without crippling both suits involved. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2182	Posted - 2014.03.11 23:52:00 - [112] - Quote You see you provided an example of damage mod v Shield extender, which you is biased AGAINST the shield extender. Lets try a few others. Example 1 You are allowed 1H 1L, you may only go tank with your suits tank type. Armour: 1Plate + 1Dmg Mod Shield: 1Extender + any non tank based mod. Winner: Armour Example 2 You are allowed 1H 1L, you may have any mod you like. Winning Combination: 1plate + 1 Dmg Mod So long as a Damage Mod is mathematically equivalent to a Shield Extender, Shield Tanking suits are at a disadvantage. Why? In an armour suit you can have damage + health, in a shield suit you must choose between on or the other, since currently there is no low slot module that provides a bonus that is mathematically equivalent to an armour plate. That is why this patch you have caldari suit stacking as many plates as everyone else. Armour Plate > Lows Shield Extenders = Damage Mods(Highs) Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
TheGoebel Kite Co. Couriers 107	Posted - 2014.03.12 03:18:00 - [113] - Quote So how long did it take from when you posted your first armor dissertation till actual armor change? I do think this turnaround will be faster, but no sense in not collecting data. EDIT: Maybe we should look between change and meaningful change as well.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10942	Posted - 2014.03.12 07:17:00 - [114] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: You see you provided an example of damage mod v Shield extender, which you is biased AGAINST the shield extender. Lets try a few others. Example 1 You are allowed 1H 1L, you may only go tank with your suits tank type. Armour: 1Plate + 1Dmg Mod Shield: 1Extender + any non tank based mod. Winner: Armour Example 2 You are allowed 1H 1L, you may have any mod you like. Winning Combination: 1plate + 1 Dmg Mod So long as a Damage Mod is mathematically equivalent to a Shield Extender, Shield Tanking suits are at a disadvantage. Why? In an armour suit you can have damage + health, in a shield suit you must choose between on or the other, since currently there is no low slot module that provides a bonus that is mathematically equivalent to an armour plate. That is why this patch you have caldari suit stacking as many plates as everyone else. Armour Plate > Lows Shield Extenders = Damage Mods(Highs) I biased it against the shield extender? Hardly. My example was based purely off of a comparison between fitting a shield mod and fitting a damage mod. Your own example is hilariously bad for these purposes. Why go with only one tank type? Compare fitting 1 shield extender and 1 plate to 1 plate and 1 damage mod. This isn't a shields vs armour debate. This is pointing out that dual tanking is by far the best option come 1.8. TheGoebel wrote: So how long did it take from when you posted your first armor dissertation till actual armor change? I do think this turnaround will be faster, but no sense in not collecting data. EDIT: Maybe we should look between change and meaningful change as well. Why hello there. I remember you. There's pretty much zero chance of any changes happening before 1.8 here. After that, who knows? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Beld Errmon Nyain Chan 1419	Posted - 2014.03.12 08:22:00 - [115] - Quote good thread.
TheGoebel Kite Co. Couriers 107	Posted - 2014.03.12 09:24:00 - [116] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: TheGoebel wrote: So how long did it take from when you posted your first armor dissertation till actual armor change? I do think this turnaround will be faster, but no sense in not collecting data. EDIT: Maybe we should look between change and meaningful change as well. Why hello there. I remember you. There's pretty much zero chance of any changes happening before 1.8 here. After that, who knows? I actually haven't played dust in forever but I saw this linked on reddit and thought I'd take the chance to be a negative ******* in a constructive thread. You know, again.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2183	Posted - 2014.03.12 09:24:00 - [117] - Quote Yes Dual-Tanking will be the best option its always been the best option thats why we have brick-tankers since forever. What I disagree with is your belief that extenders and damage mods should be comparable. They should not. With the reduction of damage mods Shield only tanking is viable again, we now need to focus on ways to stop brick tanking, yet still allow dual tanking. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 1595	Posted - 2014.03.12 10:11:00 - [118] - Quote I'd make further comment but the patch here is more of the typical band-aid BS we're used to seeing. Of particular note in my eyes: changing proficiency skills: Bad idea. Arkena explained why. it makes dual tanking king again. Also means every asshat will have a main/sidearm combo to breach both defenses. And do it poorly. Scrambler/Mass driver commandos will probably dominate here. I know what I plan to lord over you all with in the near future. Damage mod changes: Also means tanks will remain king for the next three months. AV takes yet another nerf. Huzzah.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2028	Posted - 2014.03.12 14:34:00 - [119] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Yes Dual-Tanking will be the best option its always been the best option thats why we have brick-tankers since forever. What I disagree with is your belief that extenders and damage mods should be comparable. They should not. With the reduction of damage mods Shield only tanking is viable again, we now need to focus on ways to stop brick tanking, yet still allow dual tanking. But dual tanking hasn't been better, unless you have a really bad habit of betting ambushed. Damage mods are only mathematically superior after the suit has 720 EHP, because this is the point at which an extra extender provides less than 10% of your EHP. Generally speaking further damage mods aren't really worthwhile based on that logic, but at a certain point (i.e. 720 EHP) you don't really need much more HP and the little extra bit of gank can be far more useful. essentially, if you're trying to max out your suit, don't fit more than one damage mod unless you're a heavy. (I think? Please feel free to judge me harshly if my opinions are incorrect.) Assault ak.0 w/ScR+ScP 4LYFE Forum Warrior Level Two. (GëºGêçGëª)/
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10965	Posted - 2014.03.13 07:11:00 - [120] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Yes Dual-Tanking will be the best option its always been the best option thats why we have brick-tankers since forever. What I disagree with is your belief that extenders and damage mods should be comparable. They should not. With the reduction of damage mods Shield only tanking is viable again, we now need to focus on ways to stop brick tanking, yet still allow dual tanking. But dual tanking hasn't been better, unless you have a really bad habit of betting ambushed. Damage mods are only mathematically superior after the suit has 720 EHP, because this is the point at which an extra extender provides less than 10% of your EHP. Generally speaking further damage mods aren't really worthwhile based on that logic, but at a certain point (i.e. 720 EHP) you don't really need much more HP and the little extra bit of gank can be far more useful. essentially, if you're trying to max out your suit, don't fit more than one damage mod unless you're a heavy. (I think? Please feel free to judge me harshly if my opinions are incorrect.) That's pretty much it. Also, shield extenders can be worth using over damage mods even on heavies when you count resistance bonuses. Monkey MAC wrote: Yes Dual-Tanking will be the best option its always been the best option thats why we have brick-tankers since forever. What I disagree with is your belief that extenders and damage mods should be comparable. They should not. With the reduction of damage mods Shield only tanking is viable again, we now need to focus on ways to stop brick tanking, yet still allow dual tanking. It is not my belief that they should be comparable. They just simply are. They directly compete for the same slots and resources, and it often comes down to a choice between one and the other. How do you define dual tanking differently from brick tanking? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.



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