DUST Search - An analysis of the GÇÿexpanding the arsenalGÇÖ devblog and TTK in 1.8

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:

Monkey MAC wrote:

Yes Dual-Tanking will be the best option its always been the best option thats why we have brick-tankers since forever.
What I disagree with is your belief that extenders and damage mods should be comparable.
They should not.

With the reduction of damage mods Shield only tanking is viable again, we now need to focus on ways to stop brick tanking, yet still allow dual tanking.

But dual tanking hasn't been better, unless you have a really bad habit of betting ambushed.

Damage mods are only mathematically superior after the suit has 720 EHP, because this is the point at which an extra extender provides less than 10% of your EHP. Generally speaking further damage mods aren't really worthwhile based on that logic, but at a certain point (i.e. 720 EHP) you don't really need much more HP and the little extra bit of gank can be far more useful.

essentially, if you're trying to max out your suit, don't fit more than one damage mod unless you're a heavy.

(I think? Please feel free to judge me harshly if my opinions are incorrect.)

That's pretty much it.
Also, shield extenders can be worth using over damage mods even on heavies when you count resistance bonuses.

Monkey MAC wrote:

It is not my belief that they should be comparable. They just simply are. They directly compete for the same slots and resources, and it often comes down to a choice between one and the other.

How do you define dual tanking differently from brick tanking?

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TheGoebel Kite Co. Couriers 107	Posted - 2014.03.13 15:00:00 - [121] - Quote I was thinking about WyrmspireGÇÖs focus on the damage/range ratio over all other factors. IGÇÖm trying to figure out a way that fitting requirements could be used to balance but I canGÇÖt get past the idea that the best all around performing rifle will be worth the fitting cost. Consider proto rifles. Barring the faction version they are not easy to fit and the increased performance does not keep pace with the cost of fitting. Would you roll in a proto suit with proto modules and use a basic weapon? Or do you build around the gun? So if one rifle has better performance despite higher fitting cost weGÇÖre still going to choose it over another weapon. The exception would be when the fitting requirement is so high that it becomes unreasonable. When the price is untenable, I call that the GÇ£reactive plateGÇ¥ event. Fitting changes arenGÇÖt useless but have very little effect on the actual weapon choices. You gravitate to the best weapon. What IGÇÖm trying to say is that weapons with inadequate clip sizes, accuracy, RoF or fitting wonGÇÖt have a niche, they will just not be considered. If you want meaningful choices then you need to make the word GÇ£bestGÇ¥ more subjective. So it becomes the best weapon for a situation or play style. Things that make that happen are damage and range. It may seem too simple but I canGÇÖt think of another way to make that balance work.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2188	Posted - 2014.03.13 15:13:00 - [122] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Yes Dual-Tanking will be the best option its always been the best option thats why we have brick-tankers since forever. What I disagree with is your belief that extenders and damage mods should be comparable. They should not. With the reduction of damage mods Shield only tanking is viable again, we now need to focus on ways to stop brick tanking, yet still allow dual tanking. But dual tanking hasn't been better, unless you have a really bad habit of betting ambushed. Damage mods are only mathematically superior after the suit has 720 EHP, because this is the point at which an extra extender provides less than 10% of your EHP. Generally speaking further damage mods aren't really worthwhile based on that logic, but at a certain point (i.e. 720 EHP) you don't really need much more HP and the little extra bit of gank can be far more useful. essentially, if you're trying to max out your suit, don't fit more than one damage mod unless you're a heavy. (I think? Please feel free to judge me harshly if my opinions are incorrect.) That's pretty much it. Also, shield extenders can be worth using over damage mods even on heavies when you count resistance bonuses. Monkey MAC wrote: Yes Dual-Tanking will be the best option its always been the best option thats why we have brick-tankers since forever. What I disagree with is your belief that extenders and damage mods should be comparable. They should not. With the reduction of damage mods Shield only tanking is viable again, we now need to focus on ways to stop brick tanking, yet still allow dual tanking. It is not my belief that they should be comparable. They just simply are. They directly compete for the same slots and resources, and it often comes down to a choice between one and the other. How do you define dual tanking differently from brick tanking? Dual-Tanking is the act of spreading your tank across multiple tank types in order to achieve different positives and negatives to that of a single tank type. Brick-Tanking is an Extreme form of dual-tanking where you stack the maximum amount of EHP modules to obtain the largest possible health. Example. 3H 3L Dual-Tanker: 1x Extender 1x Energizer 1x Damage Mod, 1x Reactive Plate 1x Dampener 1x CodeBreaker Gets different benefits to a Shield Tanker, (higher armour values allow for faster repping with relvant support) Gets different benefits to a Armour Tanker, (higher shields allow for small amount of standalone capability) Gets to use multiple modules to good effect. +25% Dampening +25% Hacking +80% Shield Reps +5% Damage Brick-Tanker: 3x Extender, 3x Armour Plate Aims for absolute maximum EHP, gets no additional benifits still gets amplfied negatives of each tank type. Slow and limited reps, built for singular engagments requires regular support. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10055	Posted - 2014.03.20 20:52:00 - [123] - Quote +3 Dual tanking epidemic caused by proficiency and damage mod nerfs Extreme damage profile weapons will die out No account for range vs DPS in balancing weapons of the same firing type Reckless blanket balancing makes horrible weapons even worse I'm scared for 1.8 Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 248	Posted - 2014.03.20 21:08:00 - [124] - Quote Beautiful work Arkena! It's good to know what weapons to spec into...the second best ones. We can pickle that.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 11535	Posted - 2014.03.20 22:02:00 - [125] - Quote RemingtonBeaver wrote: Beautiful work Arkena! It's good to know what weapons to spec into...the second best ones. So, because they're likely to end up the best as the best one gets nerfed? I'm afraid CCP doesn't seem to work in that kind of logical fashion. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1479	Posted - 2014.03.21 02:04:00 - [126] - Quote Just throw in the stealth ScP nerf data and fix the typo I messaged you about and I'll feel good giving this a few +1s. Shields as Weapons Zelda Dynasty Warriors is a real thing.
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 227	Posted - 2014.03.21 02:27:00 - [127] - Quote why does the most OP one get the least nerf? (yes ScR, I'm looking at you) Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 11549	Posted - 2014.03.21 07:06:00 - [128] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: why does the most OP one get the least nerf? (yes ScR, I'm looking at you) The nerf differences are tiny percentages. I don't see anything changing in terms of rifle vs rifle balance. Though your assertion that the SCR is the most OP amuses me. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2242	Posted - 2014.03.22 01:29:00 - [129] - Quote Hmm. So basically, rereading this I'm seeing that I should fit enhanced damage mods if I fit any, and it might not be worthwhile proto-ing SMG today. ak.0 4 LYFE Large Missile Turrets: the real unicorns of DUST.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12199	Posted - 2014.04.09 22:02:00 - [130] - Quote Well, I guess I'll have a look at this a month or so later. In essence, the predictions of this thread were as follows: The Magsec SMG would be the sidearm of choice post-1.8 Due to proficiency changes, laser and explosive weaponry would be hit hard Shield extenders would be preferred over damage mods Plasma rifle variants would be weakest in class CRs would be popular due to the excellent damage profile This patch would not change much in terms of rifle vs rifle balance with the exception of the SCR, affected by proficiency Things that came after this thread: - News of the SCP nerf - Details of cloaking and the playstyle changes brought with that Things that this thread did not adequately cover: - Consequences on dropsuits - A full rifle comparison, RR/CR/AR/SCR As for the predictions, I feel that they were generally correct. Looking at the field is an anecdotal experience, and though I firmly believe that I am seeing more magsecs than pistols and that I'm seeing no breach rifles and few damage mods, it's not really something that I can convince anyone with. So using market data pulled from the API (which is quite nicely displayed at http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php ) we can see that the following: The magsec is the most popular sidearm All forms of laser weaponry are relatively uncommon, with the SCR being the least common rifle and the SCP being the least common sidearm Shield extenders are more common than damage mods No plasma rifle variants occupy a notable market share CRs are very popular Admittedly I completely failed to foresee the scrambler pistol nerf and that has reduced its viability considerably beyond what I predicted, and the effect of suits was not covered adequately. So I'd say this thread was approximately accurate. Not an unmitigated success with predictions of 100% accuracy, but fairly close to the mark. Thoughts? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. EUrobro

Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 943	Posted - 2014.04.17 09:57:00 - [131] - Quote Why do you think the Rail Rifle edges out the Combat Rifle in popularity? Adding up the top tens from the Try-Hardinator: Rail Rifle [and variants]: 22 + 13.3 = 35.3 % Combat Rifle [all variants]: 14.4 + 8.1 + 7.3 = 29.8 % Assault Rifle [all variants]: 9.5 + 6.2 = 15.7 % Fanfest 2012 - Winning Team + MVP - £1100 in prizes Fanfest 2013 - Winning Team - £500 in prizes Fanfest 2014 - ???
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12364	Posted - 2014.04.17 10:47:00 - [132] - Quote Absolute Idiom II wrote: Why do you think the Rail Rifle edges out the Combat Rifle in popularity? Adding up the top tens from the Try-Hardinator: Rail Rifle [and variants]: 22 + 13.3 = 35.3 % Combat Rifle [all variants]: 14.4 + 8.1 + 7.3 = 29.8 % Assault Rifle [all variants]: 9.5 + 6.2 = 15.7 % Probably because of the extra range being useful and because of the comfort factor of having a fully automatic weapon as opposed to a burst one. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. EUrobro


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