DUST Search - An analysis of the GÇÿexpanding the arsenalGÇÖ devblog and TTK in 1.8

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Zahle Undt wrote:

See I like your threadnaughts filled with maths more than sarcasm I can't pick out in text.

If you are still itching to do the hardcore analysis I would like to see the HMG thrown into the mix and I would love for someone to be able to quantify how much TTK will be effected by frame type. I have the gut feeling that TTK will increase by frame IE light frames will see smallest increase, followed by medium, and then heavy frame. However, I suspect that instead of seeing a similar increase when one goes from light to heavy we would see that the increase in TTK from medium to heavy might be double the increase we see from light to medium, but I am not math savvy enough to pull off those calculations.

I was planning on doing the HMG but I was concerned that the thread would devolve into a heavies vs non-heavies thread quickly, as the conclusion I would have drawn is that untouched it's easily going to be a dominant weapon in 1.8.

As it happens, in terms of TTK jump between frames:

Light --> Medium is not a very large jump, except with heavily tanked logis.
Medium --> Heavy is a much larger jump after 1.8, especially because of the resistance bonuses.

Don't discount the TTK changes on the light frames just because they're light. Tanking modules have the same efficacy on any frame - I believe you're a heavy, and you may have noticed this if you've ever tried to put on shield extenders. Shield extenders feel fairly low power compared to heavy HP pools. The same effect can be seen with light frames, but in reverse - they benefit massively from individual HP modules.

I'll have a bit more of a look at heavies later.

Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.

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Deviant Alt Nos Nothi 25	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:27:00 - [31] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Corrected for the two parts where this was mistakenly using old data. My apologies, thanks for pointing that out! The majority of it was using correct data, though, and the conclusions remain the same. cool, I was enjoying the read and when I saw that bit it threw me off. Oswald Rehnquist
Heimdallr69 Ancient Ecchi 1781	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:27:00 - [32] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Soo the combat rifle will be good? I don't mean to question your math cuz mine is terrible but it's nearly 1.5x the other rifles? That's insane. Maybe. That's with the burst fire mode, though. It's a paper statistic that assumes you're maxing out the fire rate (which isn't impossible, but it's a pain nonetheless). It's still going to be a solid weapon with the proficiency changes though. The lessened disadvantage against shields will help in an era of dual tanking. Beck Weathers wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: Why flaylock WHY!? But at least when i skill into the Ion pistol and know it sucks i will still be able to depend on it for getting a kill unlike the fail-lock. oh and dat complex damage mod, died before its time. Sad fact - the flaylock will outDPS the breach assault rifle... on splash damage. is that incorperating the flaylocks reload time because it has to relaod quite often before the BAR has to No. It's a paper statistic that doesn't mean much. The BAR is useless. The flaylock is useless. Really, that's all we need to know at this point. Thanks for the answer, makes since to me now. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7175	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:30:00 - [33] - Quote Excellent post. That's where my frustration lies, though I didn't write an over 10k words threadnaught to explain it Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:39:00 - [34] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Yagihige wrote: Hmm... How about if we'd split damage mods and thus create a split? What i mean is, instead of having just damage mods, we could have shield damage mods and armor damage mods. You'd have a few combinations you could do with these. You could either opt to increase the damage your weapon does to its natural affinity or you could balance your weapon's damage to try and mitigate the lesser damage your weapon does naturally to the opposite affinity. One type of damage mod would go on high slots and the other on low slots. A decent enough idea, but it simply wouldn't work with 5% modifiers. At 10%, it might actually be quite interesting. I actually love both of you. Hold me.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 3136	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:42:00 - [35] - Quote I honestly can't figure out why CCP fails to understand that short range weapons should dominate in their range while long range weapons need to stand off and slowly chip away at their targets. I don't think they have even looked at the Assault Rifle variants since they were originally designed other than gutting the Tactical. // Lance Commander // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Ansiiis The Engineer Mocking Bird Inc. 0	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:46:00 - [36] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Sgt kirk and Arkena are the same person. Would've of never thought. I am the lord of the forums. I am also Cat Merc. Lies! Cat Merc's cub-bearer.
Ansiiis The Trustworthy Mocking Bird Inc. 759	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:48:00 - [37] - Quote Ansiiis The Engineer wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Sgt kirk and Arkena are the same person. Would've of never thought. I am the lord of the forums. I am also Cat Merc. Lies! yes, yes. But on a serious note - I read it all and I didn't find a spot to disagree except where you mentioned that shield extenders are fairly balanced to damage mods. I did understand that you emphasized that people would go for dual tanking but still - damage mods should not have touched. Caldari are masters of hand to hand combat.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 816	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:51:00 - [38] - Quote See I like your threadnaughts filled with maths more than sarcasm I can't pick out in text. If you are still itching to do the hardcore analysis I would like to see the HMG thrown into the mix and I would love for someone to be able to quantify how much TTK will be effected by frame type. I have the gut feeling that TTK will increase by frame IE light frames will see smallest increase, followed by medium, and then heavy frame. However, I suspect that instead of seeing a similar increase when one goes from light to heavy we would see that the increase in TTK from medium to heavy might be double the increase we see from light to medium, but I am not math savvy enough to pull off those calculations. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10553	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:51:00 - [39] - Quote Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote: Ansiiis The Engineer wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Sgt kirk and Arkena are the same person. Would've of never thought. I am the lord of the forums. I am also Cat Merc. Lies! yes, yes. But on a serious note - I read it all and I didn't find a spot to disagree except where you mentioned that shield extenders are fairly balanced to damage mods. I did understand that you emphasized that people would go for dual tanking but still - damage mods should not have touched. Yeah, what I meant is that they're balanced against shield extenders RIGHT NOW. It's okay at the moment. Those examples were meant to show that it was fine at the moment. After a damage mod nerf, dual tanking is the only way to go and I see that as a bad thing. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Ansiiis The Trustworthy Mocking Bird Inc. 760	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:52:00 - [40] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote: Ansiiis The Engineer wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Sgt kirk and Arkena are the same person. Would've of never thought. I am the lord of the forums. I am also Cat Merc. Lies! yes, yes. But on a serious note - I read it all and I didn't find a spot to disagree except where you mentioned that shield extenders are fairly balanced to damage mods. I did understand that you emphasized that people would go for dual tanking but still - damage mods should not have touched. Yeah, what I meant is that they're balanced against shield extenders RIGHT NOW. It's okay at the moment. Those examples were meant to show that it was fine at the moment. After a damage mod nerf, dual tanking is the only way to go and I see that as a bad thing. I am sorry. The research paper was too long for my simple peasant brain. Caldari are masters of hand to hand combat.

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10558	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:58:00 - [41] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: See I like your threadnaughts filled with maths more than sarcasm I can't pick out in text. If you are still itching to do the hardcore analysis I would like to see the HMG thrown into the mix and I would love for someone to be able to quantify how much TTK will be effected by frame type. I have the gut feeling that TTK will increase by frame IE light frames will see smallest increase, followed by medium, and then heavy frame. However, I suspect that instead of seeing a similar increase when one goes from light to heavy we would see that the increase in TTK from medium to heavy might be double the increase we see from light to medium, but I am not math savvy enough to pull off those calculations. I was planning on doing the HMG but I was concerned that the thread would devolve into a heavies vs non-heavies thread quickly, as the conclusion I would have drawn is that untouched it's easily going to be a dominant weapon in 1.8. As it happens, in terms of TTK jump between frames: Light --> Medium is not a very large jump, except with heavily tanked logis. Medium --> Heavy is a much larger jump after 1.8, especially because of the resistance bonuses. Don't discount the TTK changes on the light frames just because they're light. Tanking modules have the same efficacy on any frame - I believe you're a heavy, and you may have noticed this if you've ever tried to put on shield extenders. Shield extenders feel fairly low power compared to heavy HP pools. The same effect can be seen with light frames, but in reverse - they benefit massively from individual HP modules. I'll have a bit more of a look at heavies later. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
mollerz 2653	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:11:00 - [42] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: ads alt wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: -snip- How does the ARR have less dps than the rr? The assault weapons are pointless lol Why on earth would you quote all that for one line? Really? Because: He is a moron. Thanks for doing this analysis. You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7179	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:23:00 - [43] - Quote Ansiiis The Engineer wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Sgt kirk and Arkena are the same person. Would've of never thought. I am the lord of the forums. I am also Cat Merc. Lies! He's not lying. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7179	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:25:00 - [44] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Sgt kirk and Arkena are the same person. Would've of never thought. I am the lord of the forums. I am also Cat Merc. This would explain why we always think the same thing! IT'S A CONSPIRACY! Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
darkiller240 WarRavens League of Infamy 532	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:30:00 - [45] - Quote Combat rifle has recoil Burst plasma rifle does not there balance "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10562	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:33:00 - [46] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: Combat rifle has recoil Burst plasma rifle does not there balance Except the combat recoil is completely laughable and the burst plasma rifle still has it. The only reason you're not noticing it on the plasma variant is because the RoF is so slow in comparison. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 818	Posted - 2014.03.06 23:15:00 - [47] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: See I like your threadnaughts filled with maths more than sarcasm I can't pick out in text. If you are still itching to do the hardcore analysis I would like to see the HMG thrown into the mix and I would love for someone to be able to quantify how much TTK will be effected by frame type. I have the gut feeling that TTK will increase by frame IE light frames will see smallest increase, followed by medium, and then heavy frame. However, I suspect that instead of seeing a similar increase when one goes from light to heavy we would see that the increase in TTK from medium to heavy might be double the increase we see from light to medium, but I am not math savvy enough to pull off those calculations. I was planning on doing the HMG but I was concerned that the thread would devolve into a heavies vs non-heavies thread quickly, as the conclusion I would have drawn is that untouched it's easily going to be a dominant weapon in 1.8. As it happens, in terms of TTK jump between frames: Light --> Medium is not a very large jump, except with heavily tanked logis. Medium --> Heavy is a much larger jump after 1.8, especially because of the resistance bonuses. Don't discount the TTK changes on the light frames just because they're light. Tanking modules have the same efficacy on any frame - I believe you're a heavy, and you may have noticed this if you've ever tried to put on shield extenders. Shield extenders feel fairly low power compared to heavy HP pools. The same effect can be seen with light frames, but in reverse - they benefit massively from individual HP modules. I'll have a bit more of a look at heavies later. I'm a dual tanking Gal/Amarr logi on one character and Gal scout/Min assault on another. Extenders are definitely UP compared to armor now. The funny thing is, I just skilled into Damage mods on each of my chars because my friends were saying I was silly to tank shield extenders and now things are going the other way. Oh well, here's hoping for a respec. Thanks for doing the number crunching, I won't be very surprised if light to medium TTK jump isn't very large. Last I ran the numbers I'm going to be able to build a gal scout with only about 100 less EHP than my most well tanked min assault. I think CCP did their new sentinel bonuses with current light weapons in mind and then didn't have time or didn't think to revisit them after nerfing the weapons and quite I think its going to be sentinel spam in 1.8 followed by over nerfs and people crying for another respec in 1.9. Its CCPs MO Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Yagihige Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 583	Posted - 2014.03.06 23:34:00 - [48] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Yagihige wrote: Hmm... How about if we'd split damage mods and thus create a split? What i mean is, instead of having just damage mods, we could have shield damage mods and armor damage mods. You'd have a few combinations you could do with these. You could either opt to increase the damage your weapon does to its natural affinity or you could balance your weapon's damage to try and mitigate the lesser damage your weapon does naturally to the opposite affinity. One type of damage mod would go on high slots and the other on low slots. A decent enough idea, but it simply wouldn't work with 5% modifiers. At 10%, it might actually be quite interesting. I left any numbers out of my idea. That would be a decision to be made afterwards. Eitherway, something like this could mean could even focus on dmg mods both on high and low slots creating the ultimate glassjaw fit or escape the current dilemma of having to think of damage mods only in competition with shield extenders/regulators. You could shield tank and still use damage mods or viceversa. You'd just need to take in account what weapon you'd be carrying and what effect you'd want to put into it; an exacerbator of its damage bonus or an equalizer to balance damage output by your weapon. em ta kool t'nod
Vulcanus Lightbringer Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 317	Posted - 2014.03.06 23:38:00 - [49] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: But there are problems. There are a lot of problems. And there has been no time to give feedback on said problems. Which is exactly why we need to see dev blogs and/or patch notes much sooner than we currently do!!
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1923	Posted - 2014.03.06 23:49:00 - [50] - Quote Ahh, so THATS who Sgt Kirk's alt is. Or who Sgt Kirk's an Alt of. Whatever. Yes, we know the other guns needed to be nerfed harder, we know... And we know that the Ion Pistol us UP, Yes... Sorry, thats really all that need be written. Not this HUGE mess.... Its important to to let CCP know for sure... But this was a little overkill Arkena/Kirk. Because you Wanted to be Something your Not.

Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 223	Posted - 2014.03.06 23:51:00 - [51] - Quote The OP post is well thought out, and was a pleasant read. Most of the ideas are sound, but are not without some flaws. You brought up some good points about how damage mods will now be way more inferior to shields due to longer TTK in 1.8. Vs the same suit, your tank should be the deciding factor though, not by damage mods. Choosing which way you tank should have meaning, but with high damage mods, it is hard to truely gauge what weapons are OP and which are UP. As I have pointed out in the past, biotics should be shared H/L slot modules. This would lead to diverse fittings, and a generally funner game. Proficiency changes are also very much needed. Being able to max a prof and then using STD weapons with higher damage outputs than a player with an advanced weapon and less prof or none is mind boggling to me. Adding the bonus to the weapons natural shield or armor bonus makes choosing the right weapon for your choosen playstyle more rewarding. TBC.....Do not crucify me yet till my next comment....... Sage /thread
mollerz 2661	Posted - 2014.03.06 23:52:00 - [52] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Sorry, thats really all that need be written. Not this HUGE mess.... Its important to to let CCP know for sure... But this was a little overkill Arkena/Kirk. ** poor opinions are poor. Pour your ** elsewhere pisser. say that ten times really fast instead of reading it then You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 223	Posted - 2014.03.07 00:03:00 - [53] - Quote (read my previous post first) This will lead to some huge imbalances of course. That is kind of where we need to be. To attain balance, we have to strip down excessive damage boosts so we can get real numbers that matter. I personally believe that with these changes, dropsuit armor and shield values will have to be reworked to compensate for weapons being great and popping shields but tickle armor (and visa versa). Shield tankers would need a boost to to shields, while having armor further reduced. Armor less shields more armor. This allows shield tankers and armor tankers forced to rely mainly on their choosen tank, but does not prevent them from buffering with their weak one. This would allow shield weapons to finish off shield users armor quickly, but also give you a panick moments when facing an armor user. This also makes choosing the right sidearm and grenade important. Bring only vs armor weapons vs a shield user will bad and is a risk, but that makes the choice that much more important and fun Sage /thread
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1924	Posted - 2014.03.07 00:17:00 - [54] - Quote mollerz wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Sorry, thats really all that need be written. Not this HUGE mess.... Its important to to let CCP know for sure... But this was a little overkill Arkena/Kirk. ** poor opinions are poor. Pour your ** elsewhere pisser. say that ten times really fast instead of reading it then And you yourself. Its pretty much exactly what it says. Why did him/her/cat have to make it so long? I'm merely paraphrasing it. Because you Wanted to be Something your Not.
Kierkegaard Soren Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 247	Posted - 2014.03.07 00:52:00 - [55] - Quote You always make solid posts. Great read, and I agree which your analysis. The sad thing is, I was hoping the weapon rebalance would be a big step forward towards me actually enjoying the game. But what I'm reading here is that the RR will continue to dominate and the Gallente are garbage. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Scheneighnay McBob Learning Coalition College 4221	Posted - 2014.03.07 01:42:00 - [56] - Quote Too lazy to check if you mentioned it, but SMGs may still have higher DPS than magsec SMGs: SMGs: 95% shield damage 110% armor damage Magsec: 90% shield damage 110% armor damage I am your scan error.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4906	Posted - 2014.03.07 02:27:00 - [57] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: Sgt kirk and Arkena are the same person. Would've of never thought. its more like we're alter egos of each other. He's the respectful, calm reserved side and I'm the *****, spontaneous opinionated side. meanwhile cat merc is the ego that can't quite make it. 1st Official Role Playing Gallente Asshole** -Title Awarded by True Adamance
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 956	Posted - 2014.03.07 02:48:00 - [58] - Quote Great thread Arkena. I think anyone looking at 1.8 with a rational mindset can already see the problems we are going to face. I say this all the time and I hate to be a 'negative Nancy' however I honestly feel these changes were really ill thought out and certainly not balanced. Where is the CPM in all of this? Were they reviewing this information before hand or have they only just found out themselves? I want DUST 514 to succeed but time after time I really feel like CCP are just digging them selves a hole to sit in. They talk the good talk but when it comes time to look at actual stats'n'changes, they fall flat and certainly fall far from expectations. The details and stats can still be changed, right? Right CCP? Join our public channel - ACME SPECIAL FORCES PUB For the STATE!
Dagger-Two Tharumec Villore Accords 245	Posted - 2014.03.07 03:09:00 - [59] - Quote And here I thought Arkena was also Adamance.... Pretty much everything you said here was right on the money. These are all weapon changes I have been waiting to see happen, and every new release that doesn't include them kills my desire to keep playing that much more. Edit: Please, SOMEONE from CCP please take notice of this thread and take these weapon suggestions to the discussion table. They are genuinely GOOD ideas to put the weapons where they need to be once and for all, without this 'buff this, nerf that' nonsense. Among all the garbage floating around on these forums, this one thread is among the few shining jewels Playing since 1st batch of closed beta keys.
Spectre-M The Generals General Tso's Alliance 328	Posted - 2014.03.07 03:27:00 - [60] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Sgt kirk and Arkena are the same person. Would've of never thought. I am the lord of the forums. I am also Cat Merc. <-- it says bear, but that is totally one cool cat. Amarr Factional Warfare Loyalist Minnmatar in Amarr Armor I am a Wolf in Sheeps Clothing



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