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Why nerf damage mods?

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Tectonic Fusion 1095	Posted - 2014.02.22 21:23:00 - [31] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Hmm interesting point, this is probably the best evidence against a damage mod Nerf. Would a stacking penalty effect these play styles that severely? It already has a stacking penalty. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
NextDark Knight Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 199	Posted - 2014.02.22 21:31:00 - [32] - Quote Go watch some of the older dust videos when the TTK was a lot higher. I think CEO something or another has videos that old. Brings back memories on how bad the game was back then... Even with it's current state tank out performs damage mods but they have to change something right? No wonder 1.8 is delayed so long that TTK shift gonna hurt more then it helps. Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1. Original ROF needs to return!
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3026	Posted - 2014.02.22 21:41:00 - [33] - Quote damage mods are being nerfed because CCP is too lazy to tweak every individual weapon on a case-by-case basis and instead prefers to destroy entire game features through accumulative technical debt and half-assed solutions.
Tectonic Fusion 1095	Posted - 2014.02.22 21:43:00 - [34] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: Go watch some of the older dust videos when the TTK was a lot higher. I think CEO something or another has videos that old. Brings back memories on how bad the game was back then... Even with it's current state tank out performs damage mods but they have to change something right? No wonder 1.8 is delayed so long that TTK shift gonna hurt more then it helps. In the old days, tank (especially shield tanking) was the only viable assault role. Now dual tanking will be the only viable thing, and with aim assist still having "magnetic bullets", glass canons AKA minmatar assaults and speed tanking will still be dead. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1772	Posted - 2014.02.22 21:53:00 - [35] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: If they are nerfed, how will I be able to kill people with my sniper rifle? Don't say headshots, because it's really hard to shoot them in the head with a DS3. Get..... good? Sorry, couldn't resist Also, MD buff has been confirmed. Lets hope I can get good with the MD again now I think that The fact that the damage bonus doubles from Enh to Cmp is what makes them so strong. Change the Cmp damage bonus to 7.5%, and that should dial the things down to a reasonable level while still letting Snipers use them to great effect. Looking for a Interesting Character Name? Why Not Zoidberg?
Tectonic Fusion 1095	Posted - 2014.02.22 21:55:00 - [36] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: If they are nerfed, how will I be able to kill people with my sniper rifle? Don't say headshots, because it's really hard to shoot them in the head with a DS3. Get..... good? Sorry, couldn't resist Also, MD buff has been confirmed. Lets hope I can get good with the MD again now I think that The fact that the damage bonus doubles from Enh to Cmp is what makes them so strong. Change the Cmp damage bonus to 7.5%, and that should dial the things down to a reasonable level while still letting Snipers use them to great effect. Or buff basic and enhanced as they suck. Seriously, 10% for DAT CPU is fine. Enhanced AND basic aren;t worth it. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 446	Posted - 2014.02.22 22:00:00 - [37] - Quote CRYPT3C W0LF wrote: have never speced into damage mods or used them. Whats the point? Obviously you've never done much HMG, Forgegun, or Sniper rifle play. I should include the Laser rifle in that mix as it really only shines with damage mods. Damage modules need to be restricted to one per suit , and then all weapons need to be balanced around that fact.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1772	Posted - 2014.02.22 22:01:00 - [38] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: If they are nerfed, how will I be able to kill people with my sniper rifle? Don't say headshots, because it's really hard to shoot them in the head with a DS3. Get..... good? Sorry, couldn't resist Also, MD buff has been confirmed. Lets hope I can get good with the MD again now I think that The fact that the damage bonus doubles from Enh to Cmp is what makes them so strong. Change the Cmp damage bonus to 7.5%, and that should dial the things down to a reasonable level while still letting Snipers use them to great effect. Or buff basic and enhanced as they suck. Seriously, 10% for DAT CPU is fine. Enhanced AND basic aren;t worth it. Basic to 3%, and Enhanced to 5%? Seems alright to me. The issue with Old Players having tons opf SP to throw higher tier gear with more slots at New players would (And needs to be) remedied by tiericiding Suits and Weapons. Looking for a Interesting Character Name? Why Not Zoidberg?
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1691	Posted - 2014.02.22 22:05:00 - [39] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: I don't know... I'd bet on an Assault Scrambled Rifle w Complex Damage Mods versus Complex Shields any day. You'd go broke betting like that pretty quickly, my good sir. The math has been presented at-length on these forums numerous times. As long as the 72HP you get from a Complex Shield Extender is more than 12% of your suit's total HP, it beats Damage Mods every single time, no matter the weapon. That is the case for every dropsuit except Heavies and brick-tanked proto logistics. And in those cases, Damage Mods and Shield Extenders tie. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 901	Posted - 2014.02.22 22:13:00 - [40] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: If they are nerfed, how will I be able to kill people with my sniper rifle? Don't say headshots, because it's really hard to shoot them in the head with a DS3... Lawl. Speak of a valid argument... PLC, NK, Scout - before 1.8. That's right, I stack that OP Sh!t.

Tectonic Fusion 1095	Posted - 2014.02.22 22:16:00 - [41] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: bogeyman m wrote: I don't know... I'd bet on an Assault Scrambled Rifle w Complex Damage Mods versus Complex Shields any day. You'd go broke betting like that pretty quickly, my good sir. The math has been presented at-length on these forums numerous times. As long as the 72HP you get from a Complex Shield Extender is more than 12% of your suit's total HP, it beats Damage Mods every single time, no matter the weapon. More specifically: if a suit has less than 600 total HP (before choosing your hi-slots), extenders always win. No exceptions. From 600-720 total HP (again before choosing hi-slots), extenders always win except against Scramblers. Above 720 total HP, Damage Mods win depending on the weapon. That's pretty much only Heavies. (Edited to show the exact scenarios where which module wins.) Unless they only shield tank, and you use an AScR with 3 complex AND PROF 5. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1692	Posted - 2014.02.22 22:26:00 - [42] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Unless they only shield tank, and you use an AScR with 3 complex AND PROF 5. Once you start talking different skill levels, things change. But if all else is equal, and the suits would have less than 600 total HP before equipping hi-slots, Shield Extenders win *even then. Goes against common sense, don't it? I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1268	Posted - 2014.02.22 22:50:00 - [43] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: lowslot for damage mods, more highslot mods. Interesting. I would support this. I wouldn't, unless damage mods get split in two: one against armor, one against shields. This way, both styles of tankers can have their tank and gank. High slot against shield. Low slot against armor. If you want both, you'd have to sacrifice tank and dual tanking could still be a thing. However, high slot mods would give like +10% against armor and -5% against shields. Low slot mods would give +10% against shields, but -5% against armor, so you can't really destroy dual tankers. These numbers are not the best, but I just used them as an example. This is the only way I can see damage mods being worked out. This is just my opinion, though.
Tectonic Fusion 1095	Posted - 2014.02.22 22:58:00 - [44] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: lowslot for damage mods, more highslot mods. Interesting. I would support this. I wouldn't, unless damage mods get split in two: one against armor, one against shields. This way, both styles of tankers can have their tank and gank. High slot against shield. Low slot against armor. If you want both, you'd have to sacrifice tank and dual tanking could still be a thing. However, high slot mods would give like +10% against armor and -5% against shields. Low slot mods would give +10% against shields, but -5% against armor, so you can't really destroy dual tankers. These numbers are not the best, but I just used them as an example. This is the only way I can see damage mods being worked out. This is just my opinion, though. So basically dual tank to be competitive? Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 283	Posted - 2014.02.22 23:03:00 - [45] - Quote If they nerf them ok .If they dont ok IMo....matters not. Theyll have to tune up things.It be kinda like starting all over. and there's always the question..... What would happen to AV weps? Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
Tectonic Fusion 1095	Posted - 2014.02.22 23:13:00 - [46] - Quote Evicer wrote: If they nerf them ok .If they dont ok IMo....matters not. Theyll have to tune up things.It be kinda like starting all over. and there's always the question..... What would happen to AV weps? If they nerf them, they should also nerf armor plates. Just to be fair for of course. It might actually be a good thing for the game. No more 800 armor guys running around unless they are in a fat suit! Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 287	Posted - 2014.02.22 23:22:00 - [47] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Evicer wrote: If they nerf them ok .If they dont ok IMo....matters not. Theyll have to tune up things.It be kinda like starting all over. and there's always the question..... What would happen to AV weps? If they nerf them, they should also nerf armor plates. Just to be fair for of course. It might actually be a good thing for the game. No more 800 armor guys running around unless they are in a fat suit! nah nerfing plate is not the way .I played this game before hey fixed armor.TTK is decreased by DPS and so I see where I assume you're going with this but stacking plates is a whole other issue. Whats just happening is this high Hp cat is insta popping people he knows are there because of a range of different things like scanners.There is no current duck,dodgeing ,and weaving.The fire fights are non exsistant. Everything now is, scan .....dead. Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
Galthur Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 358	Posted - 2014.02.22 23:27:00 - [48] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: They are only in a good place because of the current TTK. If they are nerfed, how will I be able to kill people with my sniper rifle? Don't say headshots, because it's really hard to shoot them in the head with a DS3. Also how will the Forge Gun be able to kill tanks? How will the Mass Driver be able to kill the masses...and how will the laser rifle be able to kill...anything. And how will the flaaylock pistol scare people away? I wish the Sniper Rifle rewarded headshots more. Like a 200% critical or 250%. Pistols do 450%! Only Scrambler Pistols, because scrambler rounds have a brain 'scrambling effect'. Ask for a Scrambler Sniper Rifle. What do you post in the war room when CCP is gone and PC is locked? 14:44 [CCP]Logibro: Not Anime.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1692	Posted - 2014.02.22 23:40:00 - [49] - Quote Joel II X wrote: High slot against shield. Low slot against armor. If you want both, you'd have to sacrifice tank and dual tanking could still be a thing. Just so you're aware... if you do that, Damage Mods will be completely useless. You'd be better off using Extenders and Plates in those slots 100% of the time, unless you're sitting on top of a tower with a Thale's. On that note, if Damage Mods get moved to the low slot, they would be useless 100% of the time as well. Complex Armor Plates represent more than 12% of every conceivable fit's HP, heavies included, and so it would never make sense to use damage mods. (Again, outside of sniping.) I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Altina McAlterson Pure Innocence. EoN. 884	Posted - 2014.02.22 23:45:00 - [50] - Quote I've been saying for a long time that CCP needs to re-evaluate the stacking penalty in DUST. They use the same formula as EVE where ships have 6 or 7 slots sometimes. The penalty in DUST needs to be much more severe because we have so fewer numbers of slots. Maybe do that first and then start tweaking other values. Running a blaster tank in ambush is like bringing Anthrax to a pillow fight.

ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game 1067	Posted - 2014.02.22 23:48:00 - [51] - Quote the problem with this game is better weapons do little extra damage with players relying on skills and damage mods to increase damage. surely we would be better with just significantly better weapons. this then promotes the use of better weapons over cheaper weapons with stacks of mods remove or reduce damage mod use and then there is no reason why not to increase all those damage nerfed weapons of the past. surely its very easy to balance weapons and skills without having to factor in damage mods especially when you factor in shield or armor tanked I will logi the s* out of you https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
Tectonic Fusion 1098	Posted - 2014.02.23 01:10:00 - [52] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: I've been saying for a long time that CCP needs to re-evaluate the stacking penalty in DUST. They use the same formula as EVE where ships have 6 or 7 slots sometimes. The penalty in DUST needs to be much more severe because we have so fewer numbers of slots. Maybe do that first and then start tweaking other values. So...basically make it so using only one will be worth it, correct? Then it would be good to give armor plates a like 10% movement penalty because diversity > ALL. Also for every module. And increase TTK so we don't get insta popped. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1274	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:22:00 - [53] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Joel II X wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: lowslot for damage mods, more highslot mods. Interesting. I would support this. I wouldn't, unless damage mods get split in two: one against armor, one against shields. This way, both styles of tankers can have their tank and gank. High slot against shield. Low slot against armor. If you want both, you'd have to sacrifice tank and dual tanking could still be a thing. However, high slot mods would give like +10% against armor and -5% against shields. Low slot mods would give +10% against shields, but -5% against armor, so you can't really destroy dual tankers. These numbers are not the best, but I just used them as an example. This is the only way I can see damage mods being worked out. This is just my opinion, though. So basically dual tank to be competitive? That would have it's flaws by reduced movement and lower shield regen. But hey, community wants longer TTK. You can't have both damage and or armor without penalties. Also, moving damage mods from high to low won't solve anything. It'll just make shield tanking with damage mods a thing. What I proposed was the best I could come up with. If you have a better idea, I'd love to hear it. It also went with the purposed idea of changing how the weapons function AND increasing efficiency on the "natural" damage dealt. Seems like a good idea to me.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1274	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:24:00 - [54] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Altina McAlterson wrote: I've been saying for a long time that CCP needs to re-evaluate the stacking penalty in DUST. They use the same formula as EVE where ships have 6 or 7 slots sometimes. The penalty in DUST needs to be much more severe because we have so fewer numbers of slots. Maybe do that first and then start tweaking other values. So...basically make it so using only one will be worth it, correct? Then it would be good to give armor plates a like 10% movement penalty because diversity > ALL. Also for every module. And increase TTK so we don't get insta popped. You seem to be turning down a lot of ideas, but not offering alternatives...
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1274	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:26:00 - [55] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Joel II X wrote: High slot against shield. Low slot against armor. If you want both, you'd have to sacrifice tank and dual tanking could still be a thing. Just so you're aware... if you do that, Damage Mods will be completely useless. You'd be better off using Extenders and Plates in those slots 100% of the time, unless you're sitting on top of a tower with a Thale's. On that note, if Damage Mods get moved to the low slot, they would be useless 100% of the time as well. Complex Armor Plates represent more than 12% of every conceivable fit's HP, heavies included, and so it would never make sense to use damage mods. (Again, outside of sniping.) Don't know how else you can fix them besides having a tougher stacking penalty like Alltina said.
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3268	Posted - 2014.02.23 07:01:00 - [56] - Quote Because one complex damage amplifier = 3-4 levels of proficiency. Bojo - Adding chili powder to your experience since early times
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 686	Posted - 2014.02.23 08:40:00 - [57] - Quote It's partially how Dust does math, handling each skill and mod as a completely separate factor that leads to increasingly high numbers...way too high when you include proficiency. Also, it's a dmg increase per bullet. Weapons with high rofs reap huge rewards. High Alpha weapons suffer because they don't have the rof to take full advantage. Heres an example: consider a weapon with base 100 dmg, lvl 5 proficiency, and 2 dmg mods. Here's the math: 1001.151.10(1+(0.10.869))=137.5. Put into rof terms you essentially gain 1/3 more rof. A combat rifle now fires 26 rds (worth of damage) a second (instead of 20) or 360 more a minute. An HMG now fires 53 rds a second (instead of 40) or 780 more rds a minute. The poor sniper only fires 2.2 rds a sec for a tactical (instead of 1.67) or 33 more rounds a minute. So in essence you give huge benefits to high rof weapons, with much less gained for high alpha weapons. Weapons without proficiency or without dmg increase prof are screwed. Now what do you balance around?
Altina McAlterson Pure Innocence. EoN. 888	Posted - 2014.02.23 09:08:00 - [58] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: It's partially how Dust does math, handling each skill and mod as a completely separate factor that leads to increasingly high numbers...way too high when you include proficiency. Also, it's a dmg increase per bullet. Weapons with high rofs reap huge rewards. High Alpha weapons suffer because they don't have the rof to take full advantage. Heres an example: consider a weapon with base 100 dmg, lvl 5 proficiency, and 2 dmg mods. Here's the math: 1001.151.10(1+(0.10.869))=137.5. Put into rof terms you essentially gain 1/3 more rof. A combat rifle now fires 26 rds (worth of damage) a second (instead of 20) or 360 more a minute. An HMG now fires 53 rds a second (instead of 40) or 780 more rds a minute. The poor sniper only fires 2.2 rds a sec for a tactical (instead of 1.67) or 33 more rounds a minute. So in essence you give huge benefits to high rof weapons, with much less gained for high alpha weapons. Weapons without proficiency or without dmg increase prof are screwed. Now what do you balance around? ROF doesn't make any difference when it comes to damage mods. 10% boost to damage is 10% boost to DPS no matter the ROF. So once you get all the various weapon's DPS where it needs to be damage mods will equal out as well. Problem now is the DPS on the RR is so far above other weapons it throws the whole thing out of balance. Running a blaster tank in ambush is like bringing Anthrax to a pillow fight.


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