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An easy fix to shield and armor disparity

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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 592	Posted - 2014.02.14 21:55:00 - [1] - Quote The only real problems are fitting requirements and hp versus level. Right now, armor plates only have to be at ADV and are the best HP bonuser in the game, all things considered. Plates allow for easily stacked damage mods in the highs, as they should (plates=high pg low cpu, damage mods=high cpu low pg). However, shield extenders are only effective at prototype level, as STD and ADV give only 1/3 and 1/2 of the hp respectively. In addition, the fitting requirements on shield extenders are so very high that they are difficult to run much of anything past basic gear on. Extenders are supposed to allow for greater mobility so that they can leverage the suits superior shield regeneration, and thus should be coupled with Pg intensive biotic modules in the low slots. However, the fitting costs on extenders in the Pg department do not allow for this, unlike how armor's low cpu usage allows for damage mod usage. A great easy number tweaking would fix all of the aforementioned problems. STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (44 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 22 CPU) vs (58 shields, 4 PG, 30 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 34 CPU) vs (72 shields, 7 PG, 54 CPU) Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1344	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:21:00 - [2] - Quote The biggest difference is the fact that "teamwork" is treated as a balancing factor between shields and armor. Armor gets pathetically low reps, and if you want to increase it by any respectable amount you need to sacrifice TONS of armor health to achieve a very small amount of health regeneration. However, you could just stack plates in all your lows and rely on repair hives and repair tools to achieve greater health AND greater regen than shields (no delay, higher regen per second). This is not okay. Armor should have a small native regeneration rate rather than none at all. Shields need their own version of "repair tools" and "repair hives" that give them shield related benefits. And CCP, just please get rid of all the penalties. The only reason shields have a penalty is because armor has one (for some reason). The only logical reason I can think of why armor plates must have a speed penalty is so that we won't have scouts running at full speed with 700+ armor health. That's fine, but there are other solutions to that. Armor penalty is just lazy and penalizes other suits that don't need to be penalized. CCP needs to design suits so that modules affect them differently than another suit of a different frame. Light suits get less hp from a plate/extender than mediums. Mediums get less hp from a plate/extender than heavies. Light suits get more reps from repairs/rechargers than mediums. Mediums get more reps from repairs/rechargers than heavies. And so on.... And i'm sure CCP could design an even better system. However, they are working with old designs from years ago that they are trying to salvage, back when they thought they could make any piece of trash as quick as they can (I'm actually thankful they didn't release PVE in 2012, would have been another rushed piece of garbage). Oh, and things like PG, CPU, and ISK are very, very, very, VERY minor balancing points. They have nothing to do with moment to moment gameplay, so they should not be considered when balancing armor and shields for moment to moment gameplay. The PC and SL should fit into the Sidearm slot so it's accessible and practical to carry one. AV spam vs V spam
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 593	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:39:00 - [3] - Quote While i agree with you, i think your ideas would take time to implement. What do you think about my ideas? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6506	Posted - 2014.02.14 22:46:00 - [4] - Quote Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1088	Posted - 2014.02.14 23:00:00 - [5] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. Basic 33 shields Enhanced 46 shields Complex 66 shields Sound good?
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1346	Posted - 2014.02.14 23:11:00 - [6] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. Basic 33 shields Enhanced 46 shields Complex 66 shields Sound good? Much better than what we have now. The PC and SL should fit into the Sidearm slot so it's accessible and practical to carry one. AV spam vs V spam
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1346	Posted - 2014.02.14 23:15:00 - [7] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: While i agree with you, i think your ideas would take time to implement. What do you think about my ideas? Yeah, you are right about the shield extenders only being effective at complex level. The tiering needs to be reworked. The PC and SL should fit into the Sidearm slot so it's accessible and practical to carry one. AV spam vs V spam
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6508	Posted - 2014.02.14 23:16:00 - [8] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. Basic 33 shields Enhanced 46 shields Complex 66 shields Sound good? Yup yup Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 595	Posted - 2014.02.15 01:33:00 - [9] - Quote the problem isn't only Hp, but the tiering should be 44 55 66 if we want to keep complex the same as it is now. Currently, my proposed buff is only 6 hp,which is negligible, but makes it so that armor doesn't give more than 2x as much as a shield extender, but instead slightly less. The real problem is fittings believe it or not. Armor plates currently work very well in conjunction with damage mods because they fit together with ease, however, shield extenders have far too much pg to be fitted with a lot of biotics in the low module slots. Are my fitting requirement changes fair in your opinions? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 595	Posted - 2014.02.15 01:35:00 - [10] - Quote currently, if armor plates were scaled from proto how shields are scaled from proto, basic plates would give 45, and ADV would give 68. if shields were scaled to armor plates, basic would give 41, and ADV would give 54. Personally, i think it would be better to reduce the difference between PRO and STD, therefore, option two is probably the best Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 667	Posted - 2014.02.15 01:44:00 - [11] - Quote My shields supply an infinite amount of hp. I don't have to fit anything to receive this regen. I take cover they come back. If I wanted a different play style I would skill into armor. Armor is reliable and slow. Repairing it takes some effort. I can't just pop in and out of cover. I have to go lick my wounds or rely on something else. I see nothing wrong with having choices. Who wants some?
Appia Vibbia Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1187	Posted - 2014.02.15 02:18:00 - [12] - Quote I keep telling you, but you don't want to listen. You just want validation for your own ideas. High and Low slots have different costs. Giving them the same breaks certain variables in the game. You're also undercutting Shield HP. The Shield Mods should be around 66% of the Armor HP values. Without the Caldari getting a bonus to shield extenders this is a far more balanced structure. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 [email protected] (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 355	Posted - 2014.02.15 02:28:00 - [13] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. I'm a shield tanker and I agree. The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1628	Posted - 2014.02.15 03:14:00 - [14] - Quote I stopped using complex plates and switched to enhanced because the 25 extra HP isn't worth it. I think we need more modules of different meta that give higher or lower amounts of HP with slightly different fitting costs. Each tier needs about 5 different modules in it. Basic plates should have about four variants all with different resource draw and HP amounts. I think our frustration comes from the lack of module choices not the actual performance of the module. HP CPU PG Militia 65 15 2 Basic 85 10 1 Enhanced 110 20 6 Complex 135 30 12 Each one of theses tiers should have at least three other meta options. Yes, I know this isn't EVE but the same scheme could be used because the different meta versions allow for tighter fittings. Armor and shields could be done similar to this to allow us to actually have a meta game. The four plates I list above don't allow us to optimize our fits like we should be able to. GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 366	Posted - 2014.02.15 03:34:00 - [15] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. I'm a shield tanker and I agree. With 401 shields earlier, my cr just pwned people, I was hitting and running, literally, in q building, kill some protos, then run, then kill again then die, it was fun. 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
One Eyed King Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 328	Posted - 2014.02.15 03:36:00 - [16] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. I'm a shield tanker and I agree. With 401 shields earlier, my cr just pwned people, I was hitting and running, literally, in q building, kill some protos, then run, then kill again then die, it was fun. You are so baller... What's it like to be you?? Looking for the scout hangout? CCP banished it to the locker room
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 366	Posted - 2014.02.15 03:40:00 - [17] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: NK Scout wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. I'm a shield tanker and I agree. With 401 shields earlier, my cr just pwned people, I was hitting and running, literally, in q building, kill some protos, then run, then kill again then die, it was fun. You are so baller... What's it like to be you?? ** in ambush is what its like.....if no vehicles.... 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race**
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6514	Posted - 2014.02.15 10:23:00 - [18] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the problem isn't only Hp, but the tiering should be 44 55 66 if we want to keep complex the same as it is now. Currently, my proposed buff is only 6 hp,which is negligible, but makes it so that armor doesn't give more than 2x as much as a shield extender, but instead slightly less. The real problem is fittings believe it or not. Armor plates currently work very well in conjunction with damage mods because they fit together with ease, however, shield extenders have far too much pg to be fitted with a lot of biotics in the low module slots. Are my fitting requirement changes fair in your opinions? Armor plates are supposed to 2x because as a rule of thumb, half your slots are dedicated to armor repairers. In the end most armor suits don't have nearly as much HP as people think, it's in the 500~ area. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6514	Posted - 2014.02.15 10:25:00 - [19] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: I stopped using complex plates and switched to enhanced because the 25 extra HP isn't worth it. I think we need more modules of different meta that give higher or lower amounts of HP with slightly different fitting costs. Each tier needs about 5 different modules in it. Basic plates should have about four variants all with different resource draw and HP amounts. I think our frustration comes from the lack of module choices not the actual performance of the module. HP CPU PG Militia 65 15 2 Basic 85 10 1 Enhanced 110 20 6 Complex 135 30 12 Each one of theses tiers should have at least three other meta options. Yes, I know this isn't EVE but the same scheme could be used because the different meta versions allow for tighter fittings. Armor and shields could be done similar to this to allow us to actually have a meta game. The four plates I list above don't allow us to optimize our fits like we should be able to. No. Keep militia at 85, that was one of the points of why armor sucks back before armor was buffed. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 272	Posted - 2014.02.15 10:29:00 - [20] - Quote I agree on many points: 1) the proto should never = 3x std or 2x adv... this is wrong. Proto shouldn't even = 2x std (85 vs 135 is slightly more than 1.5x) 2) Shield should take less PG than armor 3) shields are just uncompetitive right now.

Aeon Amadi Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4908	Posted - 2014.02.15 10:36:00 - [21] - Quote Slightly off topic but am I the only one who thinks Armor Plates being a high PG item in a low-powered slot is ******* silly? Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1904	Posted - 2014.02.15 11:11:00 - [22] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The only real problems are fitting requirements and hp versus level. Right now, armor plates only have to be at ADV and are the best HP bonuser in the game, all things considered. Plates allow for easily stacked damage mods in the highs, as they should (plates=high pg low cpu, damage mods=high cpu low pg). However, shield extenders are only effective at prototype level, as STD and ADV give only 1/3 and 1/2 of the hp respectively. In addition, the fitting requirements on shield extenders are so very high that they are difficult to run much of anything past basic gear on. Extenders are supposed to allow for greater mobility so that they can leverage the suits superior shield regeneration, and thus should be coupled with Pg intensive biotic modules in the low slots. However, the fitting costs on extenders in the Pg department do not allow for this, unlike how armor's low cpu usage allows for damage mod usage. A great easy number tweaking would fix all of the aforementioned problems. STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (44 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 22 CPU) vs (58 shields, 4 PG, 30 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 34 CPU) vs (72 shields, 7 PG, 54 CPU) Shields do not need an HP buff unless you nerf the passive HP regen. If you learn to use your suit you can get more "mileage" out of shields than armor and you can also get the same effective HP an armor suit can get while being faster and having more active repair. So no buffing shields HP is bad. For the Federation!
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1904	Posted - 2014.02.15 11:12:00 - [23] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Slightly off topic but am I the only one who thinks Armor Plates being a high PG item in a low-powered slot is ******* silly? I think it's silly that armor even costs PG. Why do I need to run energy through my armor? !?!?! For the Federation!
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 201	Posted - 2014.02.15 13:35:00 - [24] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Slightly off topic but am I the only one who thinks Armor Plates being a high PG item in a low-powered slot is ******* silly? I think it's silly that armor even costs PG. Why do I need to run energy through my armor? !?!?! Running power through the suit to offset weight? Wait, no, that's actually not done. Or maybe each armor module weighs a ton and the power is there to offset the weight to only the current speed reduction. Anyway, what the hell is with all those "There should be shield repairers" claims and stuff like that? Shield and armor symbolize the two facets of FPS: - Shield is the new "red goo means take cover" approach where your health is effectively infinite but you turn squishy - Armor is the oldschool "be a tank, but make sure to not overextend and conserve health" playstyle. The rep tool has basically the same function as the health packs of the past. Personally, I'd say that the shield/armor tanking duality should be taken to its extreme. Something like giving armor tanking suits no or only extremely neglegible shields and vice versa. However, that would require damage type bonuses to be evened out, because it otherwise breaks balance on an encounter basis. Shield modules should focus less on raising shield HP and more on making its actual strength more of an advantage - Less regen delay, higher regeneration. The former is good for frontline fighters to pop into cover, regenerate a bit and then go on fighting. The latter is good for hit and run players that can take the time to let their shields regenerate. The shield values for both of those playstyles should be the same. What should be different is to either have faster regeneration or lower regeneration delay. Armor, on the other hand, should have far more variety in terms of HP values. The advantage is a steady output and a frontloaded design - Your armor always regenerates, but when it's shot off, you'll take a while until you are fully regenerated. This, again, should be used as a basis for customization. Amarr trade regeneration and speed for high alpha armor (...I think I just raped a word), while Gallente focus on regeneration with swift movement and the ability to be far more flexible in cover usage. A Caldari will always need to pop into cover for a few moments before regeneration kicks in, while a Gallente doesn't need to care about one or two stray shots breaking regeneration. However, attrition will favor the shield tanker over the armor tanker, because the armor tanker will have more and more trouble getting back to full HP. The idea of the repair tool here is to have armor reliant on infrastructure and coordination. Shields, meanwhile, should be independant. Having them regenerate easily is part of that, but maybe there should be more to it. How can we emphasize the fact that shields are the playstyle for unorganized groups and lone wolfs? What if shield modules had integrated scan profile reduction, while armor modules (not reppers) increase your profile? Unfortunately, this would run into issues due to Gallente being the stealth focused faction.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 603	Posted - 2014.02.15 14:37:00 - [25] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: My shields supply an infinite amount of hp. I don't have to fit anything to receive this regen. I take cover they come back. If I wanted a different play style I would skill into armor. Armor is reliable and slow. Repairing it takes some effort. I can't just pop in and out of cover. I have to go lick my wounds or rely on something else. I see nothing wrong with having choices. my armor supplies an infinite amount of hp, and my hives supply it faster than your shields do. there really is no supportable argument that could be conceived by a sane man about why shields should not get a buff at STD and ADV at the very least, and the firing requirement reduction brings it more in line with armor. by raising PRO shield extenders, I'm simply bringing their hp to slightly above half of armor plates instead of below Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 603	Posted - 2014.02.15 14:43:00 - [26] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the problem isn't only Hp, but the tiering should be 44 55 66 if we want to keep complex the same as it is now. Currently, my proposed buff is only 6 hp,which is negligible, but makes it so that armor doesn't give more than 2x as much as a shield extender, but instead slightly less. The real problem is fittings believe it or not. Armor plates currently work very well in conjunction with damage mods because they fit together with ease, however, shield extenders have far too much pg to be fitted with a lot of biotics in the low module slots. Are my fitting requirement changes fair in your opinions? Armor plates are supposed to 2x because as a rule of thumb, half your slots are dedicated to armor repairers. In the end most armor suits don't have nearly as much HP as people think, it's in the 500~ area. the problem is half the slots are not dedicated to armor reppersGÇªthere is nobody who does that except a select few, no offense to you. I think you read my idea before, but i am going to post it here again about a module that increases total armor repair rate that goes in the high slot, allowing gallants who have high base armor rep rate to stack plates in the lows, and still have have repair. It just makes sense Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 603	Posted - 2014.02.15 14:48:00 - [27] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The only real problems are fitting requirements and hp versus level. Right now, armor plates only have to be at ADV and are the best HP bonuser in the game, all things considered. Plates allow for easily stacked damage mods in the highs, as they should (plates=high pg low cpu, damage mods=high cpu low pg). However, shield extenders are only effective at prototype level, as STD and ADV give only 1/3 and 1/2 of the hp respectively. In addition, the fitting requirements on shield extenders are so very high that they are difficult to run much of anything past basic gear on. Extenders are supposed to allow for greater mobility so that they can leverage the suits superior shield regeneration, and thus should be coupled with Pg intensive biotic modules in the low slots. However, the fitting costs on extenders in the Pg department do not allow for this, unlike how armor's low cpu usage allows for damage mod usage. A great easy number tweaking would fix all of the aforementioned problems. STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (44 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 22 CPU) vs (58 shields, 4 PG, 30 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 34 CPU) vs (72 shields, 7 PG, 54 CPU) Shields do not need an HP buff unless you nerf the passive HP regen. If you learn to use your suit you can get more "mileage" out of shields than armor and you can also get the same effective HP an armor suit can get while being faster and having more active repair. So no buffing shields HP is bad. if you learn to use your armor suit, you can get more hp, more damage, and better regen than a shield suit. The argument that shield extenders should not work with biotics due to poor fitting requirements and more than 2x less hp than plates is flawed. Give me one logical and legitimate reason why armor should have very good scaling and over twice the hp of shields with much lower and better fitting costs, whereas shields have absolutely terrible scaling that makes them useless at any level other than proto, and cost so much PG that they can't be used in conjunction with biotic modules? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 2207	Posted - 2014.02.15 14:50:00 - [28] - Quote Be careful what you wish for, lowering shield extender PG cost just makes it easier to dual tank on both sides. It makes more sense to me to make PG the EHP modifier and make other modules require a higher bias on CPU. This make its so you're incentivized to not dual tank just by fitting cost alone. The only non EHP module that has obscene PG cost is the kin cat iirc. Just lower the PG on that and now shield tankers have more incentive to run kin cats over armor plates. Armor tankers already choose between power hungry shields or the more logical damage mods. It's all relatively balanced. The tiers on extenders are terrible though, 100% agreed. 42/54/66 with maybe a slight bump in std and adv PG cost would make much more sense to me.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 603	Posted - 2014.02.15 14:51:00 - [29] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Slightly off topic but am I the only one who thinks Armor Plates being a high PG item in a low-powered slot is ******* silly? Logically, it makes very little sense, the only reason begin that your suit requires greater amounts of power to propel you under the huge weight of armor plates. Balance wise, it makes more than perfect sense, as it allows for easy stacking of damage mods or e-warfare mods in the high slots, because armor costs very little CPU. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 603	Posted - 2014.02.15 14:57:00 - [30] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Be careful what you wish for, lowering shield extender PG cost just makes it easier to dual tank on both sides. It makes more sense to me to make PG the EHP modifier and make other modules require a higher bias on CPU. This make its so you're incentivized to not dual tank just by fitting cost alone. The only non EHP module that has obscene PG cost is the kin cat iirc. Just lower the PG on that and now shield tankers have more incentive to run kin cats over armor plates. Armor tankers already choose between power hungry shields or the more logical damage mods. It's all relatively balanced. The tiers on extenders are terrible though, 100% agreed. 42/54/66 with maybe a slight bump in std and adv PG cost would make much more sense to me. Well, if you want to lower dual tanking, an easy fix would be to make armor cost more PG, instead of shields. It just makes more logical sense. Kincats, in my opinion, are fine where they are at. The best fix to dual tanking in my opinion would be to make the speed penalty for armor constant across all levels, and give armor a remote repair module in the high slots that would allow for increased base armor repair for second, similar to how regulators boost shield statistics if they are in the low slots. It would give armor tankers more incentive to put a damage mod and a few repairers in the highs, because now they don't have to waste low slots for repair. For shield tankers, modules like regulators and kin cats need to be more incentivized, particularly regulators. I would say remove regulator stacking penalty, or at least severely reduce it, so that stacking regulators is very viable and very useful for shield tanking suits. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6519	Posted - 2014.02.15 15:01:00 - [31] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the problem isn't only Hp, but the tiering should be 44 55 66 if we want to keep complex the same as it is now. Currently, my proposed buff is only 6 hp,which is negligible, but makes it so that armor doesn't give more than 2x as much as a shield extender, but instead slightly less. The real problem is fittings believe it or not. Armor plates currently work very well in conjunction with damage mods because they fit together with ease, however, shield extenders have far too much pg to be fitted with a lot of biotics in the low module slots. Are my fitting requirement changes fair in your opinions? Armor plates are supposed to 2x because as a rule of thumb, half your slots are dedicated to armor repairers. In the end most armor suits don't have nearly as much HP as people think, it's in the 500~ area. the problem is half the slots are not dedicated to armor reppersGÇªthere is nobody who does that except a select few, no offense to you. I think you read my idea before, but i am going to post it here again about a module that increases total armor repair rate that goes in the high slot, allowing gallants who have high base armor rep rate to stack plates in the lows, and still have have repair. It just makes sense Do you even armor tank bro? The only suits that don't do that are logibro suits, which are extremely overpowered and heavily swayed towards armor. Assaults cannot do that, they're simply fail fits. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 603	Posted - 2014.02.15 15:08:00 - [32] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the problem isn't only Hp, but the tiering should be 44 55 66 if we want to keep complex the same as it is now. Currently, my proposed buff is only 6 hp,which is negligible, but makes it so that armor doesn't give more than 2x as much as a shield extender, but instead slightly less. The real problem is fittings believe it or not. Armor plates currently work very well in conjunction with damage mods because they fit together with ease, however, shield extenders have far too much pg to be fitted with a lot of biotics in the low module slots. Are my fitting requirement changes fair in your opinions? Armor plates are supposed to 2x because as a rule of thumb, half your slots are dedicated to armor repairers. In the end most armor suits don't have nearly as much HP as people think, it's in the 500~ area. the problem is half the slots are not dedicated to armor reppersGÇªthere is nobody who does that except a select few, no offense to you. I think you read my idea before, but i am going to post it here again about a module that increases total armor repair rate that goes in the high slot, allowing gallants who have high base armor rep rate to stack plates in the lows, and still have have repair. It just makes sense Do you even armor tank bro? The only suits that don't do that are logibro suits, which are extremely overpowered and heavily swayed towards armor. Assaults cannot do that, they're simply fail fits. Simple armor build that i don't run, but my corporate buzzkill does, and he usually gets second on the billboard, right behind me. Gallente assault g-1 all lows are armor plates (STD/ADV), all highs are damage mods (ADV i think) rail rifle/combat rifle nano hive that reps armor Maybe a scrambler pistol, idk If we are holding a point, i switch to a minlogi, with a basic rep tool and rep hives, and he switches to his heavy with an HMG and stacked armor plates, one reactive plate. Quite simply, armor is equally effective as shield at repairing, with more HP, better scaling, and works very well with any sort of teamwork. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 1898	Posted - 2014.02.15 15:32:00 - [33] - Quote The main issue here is speed IMO, shields are just too slow. On my armor tanked suits, l can go to cover and regain 40/70/140 hp back while still be in the fight. With a 515 shield cal logi it takes about 35 seconds of complete isolation to get that hp back. Yes that requires me to use a hive or indeed have a buddy with a rep tool, but still, look at the normal battlefield and this is the way of it. Who goes around with 500 armor and rely solely on passive reps? Its a definitive sign of imbalance when most competitive players in Cal logi suits stacks 450 armor on it and a triage hive... Make shileds regenerate a little faster and we're good to go. And please don't nerf basic plates, they are the most important asset for the current shield tanked suits.... Was armor UP to begin with? If armor tankers actually used triage hives, rep tools and you know, teamwork, back in the days like they do now, would a speed reduction reduction have been enough? FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.
Appia Vibbia Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1187	Posted - 2014.02.15 16:51:00 - [34] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the problem isn't only Hp, but the tiering should be 44 55 66 if we want to keep complex the same as it is now. Currently, my proposed buff is only 6 hp,which is negligible, but makes it so that armor doesn't give more than 2x as much as a shield extender, but instead slightly less. The real problem is fittings believe it or not. Armor plates currently work very well in conjunction with damage mods because they fit together with ease, however, shield extenders have far too much pg to be fitted with a lot of biotics in the low module slots. Are my fitting requirement changes fair in your opinions? Armor plates are supposed to 2x because as a rule of thumb, half your slots are dedicated to armor repairers. In the end most armor suits don't have nearly as much HP as people think, it's in the 500~ area. the problem is half the slots are not dedicated to armor reppersGÇªthere is nobody who does that except a select few, no offense to you. I think you read my idea before, but i am going to post it here again about a module that increases total armor repair rate that goes in the high slot, allowing gallants who have high base armor rep rate to stack plates in the lows, and still have have repair. It just makes sense Do you even armor tank bro? The only suits that don't do that are logibro suits, which are extremely overpowered and heavily swayed towards armor. Assaults cannot do that, they're simply fail fits. The answer here, Cat, is "no, he does not run armor fits." Appia Vibbia for CPM1 [email protected] (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 604	Posted - 2014.02.15 16:56:00 - [35] - Quote KingBabar wrote: The main issue here is speed IMO, shields are just too slow. On my armor tanked suits, l can go to cover and regain 40/70/140 hp back while still be in the fight. With a 515 shield cal logi it takes about 35 seconds of complete isolation to get that hp back. Yes that requires me to use a hive or indeed have a buddy with a rep tool, but still, look at the normal battlefield and this is the way of it. Who goes around with 500 armor and rely solely on passive reps? Its a definitive sign of imbalance when most competitive players in Cal logi suits stacks 450 armor on it and a triage hive... Make shileds regenerate a little faster and we're good to go. And please don't nerf basic plates, they are the most important asset for the current shield tanked suits.... Was armor UP to begin with? If armor tankers actually used triage hives, rep tools and you know, teamwork, back in the days like they do now, would a speed reduction reduction have been enough? Thats what I've been trying to say to the community, but people just ignore it and say-"armor is fine, you don't regen very fast" and when i make the point that hives or a teammate make up for your only weakness and make you have better regen than a shield tanker, they simply say "I use shields and they are so OP", while most of them, like backstar, use armor exclusively. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 672	Posted - 2014.02.15 16:56:00 - [36] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: My shields supply an infinite amount of hp. I don't have to fit anything to receive this regen. I take cover they come back. If I wanted a different play style I would skill into armor. Armor is reliable and slow. Repairing it takes some effort. I can't just pop in and out of cover. I have to go lick my wounds or rely on something else. I see nothing wrong with having choices. my armor supplies an infinite amount of hp, and my hives supply it faster than your shields do. there really is no supportable argument that could be conceived by a sane man about why shields should not get a buff at STD and ADV at the very least, and the firing requirement reduction brings it more in line with armor. by raising PRO shield extenders, I'm simply bringing their hp to slightly above half of armor plates instead of below it doesn't do it by itself. It takes a slot or a logi. Who wants some?
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 604	Posted - 2014.02.15 16:57:00 - [37] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: The answer here, Cat, is "no, he does not run armor fits." This is my armor fit- militia gallente, rail rifle, 3x MLT plates, 1x repper hive. Do you shield tank? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 604	Posted - 2014.02.15 17:03:00 - [38] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: My shields supply an infinite amount of hp. I don't have to fit anything to receive this regen. I take cover they come back. If I wanted a different play style I would skill into armor. Armor is reliable and slow. Repairing it takes some effort. I can't just pop in and out of cover. I have to go lick my wounds or rely on something else. I see nothing wrong with having choices. my armor supplies an infinite amount of hp, and my hives supply it faster than your shields do. there really is no supportable argument that could be conceived by a sane man about why shields should not get a buff at STD and ADV at the very least, and the firing requirement reduction brings it more in line with armor. by raising PRO shield extenders, I'm simply bringing their hp to slightly above half of armor plates instead of below it doesn't do it by itself. It takes a slot or a logi. Fine, if there is an equipment that when deployed doubles the HP of shields, i will agree with you that it is balanced. Currently, you can use one slot on any non heavy suit and fully mitigate your only weakness. Shields, on the other hand, cannot. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2233	Posted - 2014.02.15 17:06:00 - [39] - Quote God no. More PG is not the problem. Just increase the speed penalty for armour plates. Seriously, armour based(non-Logi) suits only use 2 plates MAX. we use the other 1-2 slots for reps. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 605	Posted - 2014.02.15 17:16:00 - [40] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: God no. More PG is not the problem. Just increase the speed penalty for armour plates. Seriously, armour based(non-Logi) suits only use 2 plates MAX. we use the other 1-2 slots for reps. 1. Why is it not a problem? what about commandos and scout suits that want to run extenders for the extra speed that they can get by using kincats? Not offensively, or challenging your viewpoint, but i would like to see one logical reason why pg on extenders is not a problem 2. Fix for speed penalty on armor plates=have the penalty be a constant 3-4% across all tiers 3. This is simply not true. Most people who know what they are doing use all plates, maybe 1x reactive, and a repper hive. 4. The problem with reps is that they simply aren't very used to boost regen. A better fix would be to put a remote repair module in the high slots that increases repair rate by a certain percentage, allowing gallente (who have the highest base repair rate) to become regenerative demons, and increasing the utility of repair modules Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 605	Posted - 2014.02.15 17:23:00 - [41] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: Oh, and things like PG, CPU, and ISK are very, very, very, VERY minor balancing points. They have nothing to do with moment to moment gameplay, so they should not be considered when balancing armor and shields for moment to moment gameplay. The one problem with this argument is that with higher remaining CPU/PG, it is easier to fit better gear in other slots, and therefore affects moment to moment gameplay by altering the effectiveness of certain builds over others Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
GET ATMESON Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 254	Posted - 2014.02.15 17:35:00 - [42] - Quote The reasons armor>Shields I think 1. The TTK is very high. Shields dont have enough EHP or DPS 2. the RR does to much damage over a very long range. 3. Shields have to give up EHP for damage mods. 4. Armor can stack on EHP with Damage mods. 5. Armor doesnt have anything else for high slots so no other reasons to use something besides damage mods 6. The RR reminds me of the AR with Sharpshooter 5. Personally changing the Armor or Shield CPU and PG wont fix anything. If damage mods were changed around from the 3/5/10 to 2/4/6 same CPU & PG for damage mods. Yes this would effect everyone that loves them but the biggest hit would be armor builds. I really dont think buffing anymore class's will do any good. Changes would be better. Once CCP buff's something it becomes OP. If Armor's DPS is hurt people might want to go back to being shields. Open Beta Fed 16th 2013. Scout fix + Heavy suits + Heavy guns = soonGäó
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 605	Posted - 2014.02.15 17:40:00 - [43] - Quote GET ATMESON wrote: The reasons armor>Shields I think 1. The TTK is very high. Shields dont have enough EHP or DPS 2. the RR does to much damage over a very long range. 3. Shields have to give up EHP for damage mods. 4. Armor can stack on EHP with Damage mods. 5. Armor doesnt have anything else for high slots so no other reasons to use something besides damage mods 6. The RR reminds me of the AR with Sharpshooter 5. Personally changing the Armor or Shield CPU and PG wont fix anything. If damage mods were changed around from the 3/5/10 to 2/4/6 same CPU & PG for damage mods. Yes this would effect everyone that loves them but the biggest hit would be armor builds. I really dont think buffing anymore class's will do any good. Changes would be better. Once CCP buff's something it becomes OP. If Armor's DPS is hurt people might want to go back to being shields. Yeah, the TTK is just one of many problems. you pretty much summed it up right there, but forgot to mention that armor has better regenerative properties than shields. I personally think that if Pg/Cpu was fixed that we could see shield suits being used as they should be used, i.e. they can get in close and use close range but powerful weapons, hit and then run away. The main problem is that the PG usage is far too high to be viable for use with kinetic catalyzers or cardiac regulators as they should be used with, whereas armor fits very well with damage mods, and can still use prototype everything else Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2240	Posted - 2014.02.15 18:47:00 - [44] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: God no. More PG is not the problem. Just increase the speed penalty for armour plates. Seriously, armour based(non-Logi) suits only use 2 plates MAX. we use the other 1-2 slots for reps. 1. Why is it not a problem? what about commandos and scout suits that want to run extenders for the extra speed that they can get by using kincats? Not offensively, or challenging your viewpoint, but i would like to see one logical reason why pg on extenders is not a problem 2. Fix for speed penalty on armor plates=have the penalty be a constant 3-4% across all tiers 3. This is simply not true. Most people who know what they are doing use all plates, maybe 1x reactive, and a repper hive. 4. The problem with reps is that they simply aren't very used to boost regen. A better fix would be to put a remote repair module in the high slots that increases repair rate by a certain percentage, allowing gallente (who have the highest base repair rate) to become regenerative demons, and increasing the utility of repair modules PG is the problem most armour users have. I have engineering maxed and most PG reduction skills maxed and I still struggle to fit my Proto Gallente assault. Armour plates should be running on a 3/4/5. I say keep the complex plates speed penalty where is it because it is the only plate that is balanced right now. While I can't speak for everyone, I know myself and the few GalAssaults use at least 2 reps. Usually 1complex and a enhanced and 2 enhanced plates. Fitting anything other then a compact hive becomes a problem with GalAssaults. Again, I can't speak for everyone and I know most AmarrAssaults run 3 enhanced plates and completely forgo reps in favor of rep hives(they have more CPU/PG then other assaults) I think reps are fine in the low slots, I'd rather see reactive plates moved to the high slot honestly. Hopefully dmg mods are reduced or simply removed so they stop being the best high slot mod. As for increasing rep mods, maybe increase the healing factor by one on each mod and incense the skill by 1 percent per level. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 355	Posted - 2014.02.15 18:52:00 - [45] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: HP CPU PG Militia 65 15 2 Basic 85 10 1 No. Keep militia at 85, that was one of the points of why armor sucks back before armor was buffed. Agreed. Militia stuff should be a pain in the ass to fit in exchange for cheaper fits. I'm self-debating with myself as to buff the current militia weapon magazines to their STD counterparts. The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 606	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:14:00 - [46] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: PG is the problem most armour users have. I have engineering maxed and most PG reduction skills maxed and I still struggle to fit my Proto Gallente assault. Armour plates should be running on a 3/4/5. I say keep the complex plates speed penalty where is it because it is the only plate that is balanced right now. While I can't speak for everyone, I know myself and the few GalAssaults use at least 2 reps. Usually 1complex and a enhanced and 2 enhanced plates. Fitting anything other then a compact hive becomes a problem with GalAssaults. Again, I can't speak for everyone and I know most AmarrAssaults run 3 enhanced plates and completely forgo reps in favor of rep hives(they have more CPU/PG then other assaults) I think reps are fine in the low slots, I'd rather see reactive plates moved to the high slot honestly. Hopefully dmg mods are reduced or simply removed so they stop being the best high slot mod. As for increasing rep mods, maybe increase the healing factor by one on each mod and incense the skill by 1 percent per level. Edit:also, I think shield extenders should give a slightly hp output and require slight less CPU/PG to bring them in line. Maybe 8-10hp across the board and lowering the CPU by 2/4/8 and PG by 1/3/5 PG is the problem i have on my shield tanked minmitar scout-i just can't fit kin cats. PG should be the limiting resource on armor suits, and cpu should be the limiting resource on shield suits. Currently, only PG is a problem only if one is running complex plates on an armor suit, however, PG and CPU are a problem on shield tanking suits. Ill agree on those speed reductions, and yeah, proto plates are the only ones that are really balanced. When i said remote repairers, i meant an entirely new module that instead of giving an addition to HP/sec, it gives a percentage bonus, and would lie in the high slot. Armor repairers would still stay in low slots. I agree with your edit, but the only thing missing is scaling STD and ADV extenders to viability. Currently, they give 1/3 and 1/2 of a proto extender, respectively Overall great insight, and i appreciate your unbiased feedback :) Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 410	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:27:00 - [47] - Quote here is the problem I see w/ shield vs armor. Since the introduction of the game, armor has received 2 addition types, along w/ a penalty reduction to the standard plates. Whereas shield have only seen a penalty invoked to them. Prior to the current build of 1.6 w/ logi and thusly 1.7; is has shown that armor tanker outweighs shield tanking in every situation (more or less). One of the biggest aids to this, is that any damage to shields is don't with "ease" even through natural damage reduction, compared to armor seemingly being harder to rip through. If you look at the use of an SMG since the game has been around; the smg rips through shields just as easily as any other weapon, even though it has a 20% reduction to shield; but it is almost nullified w/ of the rof it puts out damage. Yes, shields do have a natural regen, that is about the only benefit they have compared to armor (aside from movement penalty, but even that is nullified with new armor plates). As w/ amount of people armor tanking, lots of logi's run repps, and can run repping hives which can "almost" nullify damage in 1v1 battles In my opinion, a possibly "fix" would be 2 things occurring: 1). Add a 2nd extender type with the current penalty, but increase their hp buffer to be more inline with original armor plates. By doing that, you can keep the current extenders as is (though prob change still to 33-44-66 respectively, which would be in line w/ the new non penalty armor plates) ex: 60-80-100 , w/ the penalty of current extenders. 2). Alter the CPU/PG costs of plates. Simply put can probably keep cpu as is, but pg should be lowered around the horn on extenders, especially at proto level
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 607	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:30:00 - [48] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: here is the problem I see w/ shield vs armor. Since the introduction of the game, armor has received 2 addition types, along w/ a penalty reduction to the standard plates. Whereas shield have only seen a penalty invoked to them. Prior to the current build of 1.6 w/ logi and thusly 1.7; is has shown that armor tanker outweighs shield tanking in every situation (more or less). One of the biggest aids to this, is that any damage to shields is don't with "ease" even through natural damage reduction, compared to armor seemingly being harder to rip through. If you look at the use of an SMG since the game has been around; the smg rips through shields just as easily as any other weapon, even though it has a 20% reduction to shield; but it is almost nullified w/ of the rof it puts out damage. Yes, shields do have a natural regen, that is about the only benefit they have compared to armor (aside from movement penalty, but even that is nullified with new armor plates). As w/ amount of people armor tanking, lots of logi's run repps, and can run repping hives which can "almost" nullify damage in 1v1 battles In my opinion, a possibly "fix" would be 2 things occurring: 1). Add a 2nd extender type with the current penalty, but increase their hp buffer to be more inline with original armor plates. By doing that, you can keep the current extenders as is (though prob change still to 33-44-66 respectively, which would be in line w/ the new non penalty armor plates) ex: 60-80-100 , w/ the penalty of current extenders. 2). Alter the CPU/PG costs of plates. Simply put can probably keep cpu as is, but pg should be lowered around the horn on extenders, especially at proto level So do you believe extenders need a lower CPU and PG cost, and better scaling? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 410	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:37:00 - [49] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: here is the problem I see w/ shield vs armor. Since the introduction of the game, armor has received 2 addition types, along w/ a penalty reduction to the standard plates. Whereas shield have only seen a penalty invoked to them. Prior to the current build of 1.6 w/ logi and thusly 1.7; is has shown that armor tanker outweighs shield tanking in every situation (more or less). One of the biggest aids to this, is that any damage to shields is don't with "ease" even through natural damage reduction, compared to armor seemingly being harder to rip through. If you look at the use of an SMG since the game has been around; the smg rips through shields just as easily as any other weapon, even though it has a 20% reduction to shield; but it is almost nullified w/ of the rof it puts out damage. Yes, shields do have a natural regen, that is about the only benefit they have compared to armor (aside from movement penalty, but even that is nullified with new armor plates). As w/ amount of people armor tanking, lots of logi's run repps, and can run repping hives which can "almost" nullify damage in 1v1 battles In my opinion, a possibly "fix" would be 2 things occurring: 1). Add a 2nd extender type with the current penalty, but increase their hp buffer to be more inline with original armor plates. By doing that, you can keep the current extenders as is (though prob change still to 33-44-66 respectively, which would be in line w/ the new non penalty armor plates) ex: 60-80-100 , w/ the penalty of current extenders. 2). Alter the CPU/PG costs of plates. Simply put can probably keep cpu as is, but pg should be lowered around the horn on extenders, especially at proto level So do you believe extenders need a lower CPU and PG cost, and better scaling? not CPU, but to be incline w/ how EvE works, slightly lower PG yes (mean like 2pg less at proto). And yes, I think scalling is needed for shield b/c of how easy shield melt compared to armor. Along with that, it may help "balance" out shields to survive damage-mod armor tankers (as is, you can tank and dps), so this will allow shield tanker to semi counter that; and if shield want to use a damage mod; it is more of a health penalty then (so there is a cost-benefit to their use then, along w/ the current penalty shield extenders have)
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 608	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:41:00 - [50] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: here is the problem I see w/ shield vs armor. Since the introduction of the game, armor has received 2 addition types, along w/ a penalty reduction to the standard plates. Whereas shield have only seen a penalty invoked to them. Prior to the current build of 1.6 w/ logi and thusly 1.7; is has shown that armor tanker outweighs shield tanking in every situation (more or less). One of the biggest aids to this, is that any damage to shields is don't with "ease" even through natural damage reduction, compared to armor seemingly being harder to rip through. If you look at the use of an SMG since the game has been around; the smg rips through shields just as easily as any other weapon, even though it has a 20% reduction to shield; but it is almost nullified w/ of the rof it puts out damage. Yes, shields do have a natural regen, that is about the only benefit they have compared to armor (aside from movement penalty, but even that is nullified with new armor plates). As w/ amount of people armor tanking, lots of logi's run repps, and can run repping hives which can "almost" nullify damage in 1v1 battles In my opinion, a possibly "fix" would be 2 things occurring: 1). Add a 2nd extender type with the current penalty, but increase their hp buffer to be more inline with original armor plates. By doing that, you can keep the current extenders as is (though prob change still to 33-44-66 respectively, which would be in line w/ the new non penalty armor plates) ex: 60-80-100 , w/ the penalty of current extenders. 2). Alter the CPU/PG costs of plates. Simply put can probably keep cpu as is, but pg should be lowered around the horn on extenders, especially at proto level So do you believe extenders need a lower CPU and PG cost, and better scaling? not CPU, but to be incline w/ how EvE works, slightly lower PG yes (mean like 2pg less at proto). And yes, I think scalling is needed for shield b/c of how easy shield melt compared to armor. Along with that, it may help "balance" out shields to survive damage-mod armor tankers (as is, you can tank and dps), so this will allow shield tanker to semi counter that; and if shield want to use a damage mod; it is more of a health penalty then (so there is a cost-benefit to their use then, along w/ the current penalty shield extenders have) Do you agree with the numbers that i put in my OP? 44 hp at STd, 58 at ADV, and 72 at PRO, with a 4 pg reduction at PRO? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 410	Posted - 2014.02.15 21:56:00 - [51] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Do you agree with the numbers that i put in my OP? 44 hp at STd, 58 at ADV, and 72 at PRO, with a 4 pg reduction at PRO? I would say no. Reason for it, as the increase is to minimal to make a difference. It is only a 10% increase, so after the extenders passive bonus, there is still only a increase of 7 shields. If you look at a Caldari assault for ex: that means all you get is an extra 28hp, which is to minimal to make a difference. That is .5-1 bullet difference. One thing I'd say would need to be taken into account is which armor plates most people use. As is, even with your proposed changes, a proto armor plate still equal 2x of shield. So if 2 people run respective assault suits; as shield tanker would have to use all 4 high slots to equate the hp use of just 2 low slots (for the 130 plates) for the armor tanker (and cant say one has penalty, b/c both do now). Pending on what else the armor tanker has, he can fit a rep, and possibly a cpu upgrade or something. Combine that with a combo hive (both armor and ammo), he can still shield tank or damage mod his high slots. Where as, a shield tanker would HAVE to dedicate at least one slot to a CPU upgrade (as you have to in order to fit), and one slot would be a regulator. At that point you leave 1 low slot for a rep to help in case you hit armor; or some other module, but once your shield are down you need to wait for them to return as you wouldn't be able to rep any armor damage unless have a logi or repping hive (which u wouldn't most likely being a shield tanker) In that type of scenario, which im assuming most armor tanker use anyway; you are looking at roughly the same amount of ehp b/t the suits; yet the armor tanker can buffer w/ extra shield or get more damage w/ damage mods, whereas the shield tanker cannot. Once you melt his shield (which you do easily no matter the weapon, aside from MD maybe), he would need to run or be more careful where an armor tanker has more flexibility in what they can do.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 611	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:09:00 - [52] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Do you agree with the numbers that i put in my OP? 44 hp at STd, 58 at ADV, and 72 at PRO, with a 4 pg reduction at PRO? I would say no. Reason for it, as the increase is to minimal to make a difference. It is only a 10% increase, so after the extenders passive bonus, there is still only a increase of 7 shields. If you look at a Caldari assault for ex: that means all you get is an extra 28hp, which is to minimal to make a difference. That is .5-1 bullet difference. One thing I'd say would need to be taken into account is which armor plates most people use. As is, even with your proposed changes, a proto armor plate still equal 2x of shield. So if 2 people run respective assault suits; as shield tanker would have to use all 4 high slots to equate the hp use of just 2 low slots (for the 130 plates) for the armor tanker (and cant say one has penalty, b/c both do now). Pending on what else the armor tanker has, he can fit a rep, and possibly a cpu upgrade or something. Combine that with a combo hive (both armor and ammo), he can still shield tank or damage mod his high slots. Where as, a shield tanker would HAVE to dedicate at least one slot to a CPU upgrade (as you have to in order to fit), and one slot would be a regulator. At that point you leave 1 low slot for a rep to help in case you hit armor; or some other module, but once your shield are down you need to wait for them to return as you wouldn't be able to rep any armor damage unless have a logi or repping hive (which u wouldn't most likely being a shield tanker) In that type of scenario, which im assuming most armor tanker use anyway; you are looking at roughly the same amount of ehp b/t the suits; yet the armor tanker can buffer w/ extra shield or get more damage w/ damage mods, whereas the shield tanker cannot. Once you melt his shield (which you do easily no matter the weapon, aside from MD maybe), he would need to run or be more careful where an armor tanker has more flexibility in what they can do. So i generated these numbers by using 72 shield as my baseline for prototype, and then scaling STD and ADV shields in the same way as STD and ADV plates are scaled. What do you think about the fitting requirements at least? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 411	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:15:00 - [53] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Do you agree with the numbers that i put in my OP? 44 hp at STd, 58 at ADV, and 72 at PRO, with a 4 pg reduction at PRO? I would say no. Reason for it, as the increase is to minimal to make a difference. It is only a 10% increase, so after the extenders passive bonus, there is still only a increase of 7 shields. If you look at a Caldari assault for ex: that means all you get is an extra 28hp, which is to minimal to make a difference. That is .5-1 bullet difference. One thing I'd say would need to be taken into account is which armor plates most people use. As is, even with your proposed changes, a proto armor plate still equal 2x of shield. So if 2 people run respective assault suits; as shield tanker would have to use all 4 high slots to equate the hp use of just 2 low slots (for the 130 plates) for the armor tanker (and cant say one has penalty, b/c both do now). Pending on what else the armor tanker has, he can fit a rep, and possibly a cpu upgrade or something. Combine that with a combo hive (both armor and ammo), he can still shield tank or damage mod his high slots. Where as, a shield tanker would HAVE to dedicate at least one slot to a CPU upgrade (as you have to in order to fit), and one slot would be a regulator. At that point you leave 1 low slot for a rep to help in case you hit armor; or some other module, but once your shield are down you need to wait for them to return as you wouldn't be able to rep any armor damage unless have a logi or repping hive (which u wouldn't most likely being a shield tanker) In that type of scenario, which im assuming most armor tanker use anyway; you are looking at roughly the same amount of ehp b/t the suits; yet the armor tanker can buffer w/ extra shield or get more damage w/ damage mods, whereas the shield tanker cannot. Once you melt his shield (which you do easily no matter the weapon, aside from MD maybe), he would need to run or be more careful where an armor tanker has more flexibility in what they can do. So i generated these numbers by using 72 shield as my baseline for prototype, and then scaling STD and ADV shields in the same way as STD and ADV plates are scaled. What do you think about the fitting requirements at least? id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion)
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 611	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:16:00 - [54] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion) Thanks! Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 414	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:32:00 - [55] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion) Thanks! np at all. Like said, this is important to get right. As I believe w/ the pg reduction and a extender increase, it will bring that more into balance with the value of armor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 615	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:33:00 - [56] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion) Thanks! np at all. Like said, this is important to get right. As I believe w/ the pg reduction and a extender increase, it will being that more into balance with the value of armor Agreed, I'm glad this community has people as clearheaded as you Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 376	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:33:00 - [57] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion) Thanks! np at all. Like said, this is important to get right. As I believe w/ the pg reduction and a extender increase, it will being that more into balance with the value of armor complex extenders need a slight cpu reduction, like by 4. 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 414	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:34:00 - [58] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion) Thanks! np at all. Like said, this is important to get right. As I believe w/ the pg reduction and a extender increase, it will being that more into balance with the value of armor Agreed, I'm glad this community has people as clearheaded as you lol, thanks; prob helped I haven't played or been around much. Hell if I had, id of been crazy enough to try for CPM1
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 615	Posted - 2014.02.15 22:34:00 - [59] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Berserker007 wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion) Thanks! np at all. Like said, this is important to get right. As I believe w/ the pg reduction and a extender increase, it will being that more into balance with the value of armor complex extenders need a slight cpu reduction, like by 4. Exactly as i said in my OP, thanks :) Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 618	Posted - 2014.02.16 00:33:00 - [60] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Berserker007 wrote: id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion) Thanks! np at all. Like said, this is important to get right. As I believe w/ the pg reduction and a extender increase, it will being that more into balance with the value of armor Agreed, I'm glad this community has people as clearheaded as you lol, thanks; prob helped I haven't played or been around much. Hell if I had, id of been crazy enough to try for CPM1 * or well, still thinking of if able ... hmmm Anyone who knows how to achieve balance between shield and armor is a good candidate in my opinion Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Tectonic Fusion 1055	Posted - 2014.02.16 01:16:00 - [61] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. Also decrease the shield penalty down to armor penalty levels. 7% for a complex shield? Crazy... Solo Player Squad status: Locked
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 378	Posted - 2014.02.16 01:55:00 - [62] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. Also decrease the shield penalty down to armor penalty levels. 7% for a complex shield? Crazy... Does it apply to regular delay too? It feels like it. 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4641	Posted - 2014.02.16 01:59:00 - [63] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: The biggest difference is the fact that "teamwork" is treated as a balancing factor between shields and armor. Armor gets pathetically low reps, and if you want to increase it by any respectable amount you need to sacrifice TONS of armor health to achieve a very small amount of health regeneration. y. True.But there are Armor Repping Tools and Nanohives. Equipments that COVER these weakness. Shields dont have anything to cover their weakness ( having less HP ) and instead get 1HKO'd by Flux grenades. <..< Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 621	Posted - 2014.02.16 02:10:00 - [64] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Protocake JR wrote: The biggest difference is the fact that "teamwork" is treated as a balancing factor between shields and armor. Armor gets pathetically low reps, and if you want to increase it by any respectable amount you need to sacrifice TONS of armor health to achieve a very small amount of health regeneration. y. True.But there are Armor Repping Tools and Nanohives. Equipments that COVER these weakness. Shields dont have anything to cover their weakness ( having less HP ) and instead get 1HKO'd by Flux grenades. <..< Checkmate has a point that armor can easily mitigate its only disadvantages through the use of equipment, whereas shields cannot, and have less health, and are vulnerable to far more potent weapons than armor. Also, you forgot the scrambler rifle being able to one-shot any shield value in the game with max proficiency. Or a breach scram pistol with a single headshot (regular if proficiency is maxed). Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 621	Posted - 2014.02.16 02:14:00 - [65] - Quote Another thing- if shields are buffed, we will see weapons like the AR and ScR get their niches back, as far more people will shield tank their suits. People complain that these weapons have been displaced by the RR and CR, and this is the case, however, with shield tanking becoming viable, these weapons will again have a role to play on the battlefield. Flux grenades are already semi common, but increased viability of shields would stop at least a small bit of locus grenade spam, as flux grenades and a combat rifle will be all that is needed to take out a shielded suit Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4645	Posted - 2014.02.16 02:45:00 - [66] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Checkmate has a point that armor can easily mitigate its only disadvantages through the use of equipment, whereas shields cannot, and have less health, and are vulnerable to far more potent weapons than armor. Also, you forgot the scrambler rifle being able to one-shot any shield value in the game with max proficiency. Or a breach scram pistol with a single headshot (regular if proficiency is maxed). Not only Shield has an EFFECTIVE weapon that deals BONUS damage to it (SCR RIFLE 120%), but there are also FLUX grenades that 1HKO shields. The PG reduction on shields is a MUST. No discussion here. But i like the OP's ideas on the HP buff to shields! If not....= Something that COULD be done to BALANCE SHIELDS is a nanohive that besides giving ammo, stacks '' Hardener points'' on the suit, giving certain DAMAGE RESISTANCE for shields. So Armor has lots more HP can cover their HP REPAIR weakness with Repair NAnohives or a friendly Rep Tool. Shields have LESS HP but could last LONGER with some type of HARDENER tech. After all, nanos ARE CALDARI equipment....... Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 627	Posted - 2014.02.16 02:47:00 - [67] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Checkmate has a point that armor can easily mitigate its only disadvantages through the use of equipment, whereas shields cannot, and have less health, and are vulnerable to far more potent weapons than armor. Also, you forgot the scrambler rifle being able to one-shot any shield value in the game with max proficiency. Or a breach scram pistol with a single headshot (regular if proficiency is maxed). Not only Shield has an EFFECTIVE weapon that deals BONUS damage to it (SCR RIFLE 120%), but there are also FLUX grenades that 1HKO shields. The PG reduction on shields is a MUST. No discussion here. But i like the OP's ideas on the HP buff to shields! If not....= Something that COULD be done to BALANCE SHIELDS is a nanohive that besides giving ammo, stacks '' Hardener points'' on the suit, giving certain DAMAGE RESISTANCE for shields. So Armor has lots more HP can cover their HP REPAIR weakness with Repair NAnohives or a friendly Rep Tool. Shields have LESS HP but could last LONGER with some type of HARDENER tech. After all, nanos ARE CALDARI equipment....... Its not a bad idea, but i really want to avoid bringing shields into the same problem that armor has, where they become insanely OP with equipment, but a timed hardened effect would be great, it would just cause all the gallants and amarr players to scream because they can't one shot any shield tanker in the game Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Ventis Gant Goibhniu Industries 49	Posted - 2014.02.16 03:17:00 - [68] - Quote Essentially what you have rediscovered here is something that has long been known in EVE: For PvP (which is all we have, of course) gank and buffer tank trumps regeneration every time. The average engagement is too short for regeneration to have as much effect as higher initial EHP. The circumstances are slightly different here than in EVE, as it is impossible to take cover in EVE, but some of the same principals apply. Shields need to have the option of fitting for EHP as well, at the expense of some of the regen. This, I believe, was the goal of introducing the penalty on shield extenders, but they forgot that in order for this penalty to be justified, the shield user needs a lot more EHP. The other side of this issue is that there should be four distinct tanking options, each of which has advantages in certain circumstances: High EHP armor with no or very limited innate repair (which is what is used now, the repair is from equipment or teammates, not built into the suit). Balanced by fairly stiff speed penalties. Low EHP armor with relatively high repair. Balanced by the aforementioned low EHP, but does not have speed penalties built in. High EHP shield with relatively low regen. Balanced by signature penalties. This is how shield buffer fits are balanced in EVE. They are faster to target. The closest equivalent we have to this in Dust is to make them easier to detect. All that shielding puts out a lot of electronic noise. Low EHP shield with fast regen. At the far end of the scale, the time to begin regen should be able to be brought low enough that the suit begins regeneration almost as soon as it is not actively taking fire. This suit cannot stand and fight, but is well suited to hit and run.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 633	Posted - 2014.02.16 03:22:00 - [69] - Quote Ventis Gant wrote: Essentially what you have rediscovered here is something that has long been known in EVE: For PvP (which is all we have, of course) gank and buffer tank trumps regeneration every time. The average engagement is too short for regeneration to have as much effect as higher initial EHP. The circumstances are slightly different here than in EVE, as it is impossible to take cover in EVE, but some of the same principals apply. Shields need to have the option of fitting for EHP as well, at the expense of some of the regen. This, I believe, was the goal of introducing the penalty on shield extenders, but they forgot that in order for this penalty to be justified, the shield user needs a lot more EHP. The other side of this issue is that there should be four distinct tanking options, each of which has advantages in certain circumstances: High EHP armor with no or very limited innate repair (which is what is used now, the repair is from equipment or teammates, not built into the suit). Balanced by fairly stiff speed penalties. Low EHP armor with relatively high repair. Balanced by the aforementioned low EHP, but does not have speed penalties built in. High EHP shield with relatively low regen. Balanced by signature penalties. This is how shield buffer fits are balanced in EVE. They are faster to target. The closest equivalent we have to this in Dust is to make them easier to detect. All that shielding puts out a lot of electronic noise. Low EHP shield with fast regen. At the far end of the scale, the time to begin regen should be able to be brought low enough that the suit begins regeneration almost as soon as it is not actively taking fire. This suit cannot stand and fight, but is well suited to hit and run. Personally, i think shields should work as they do now, just be more effective. In the hands of the right player, if they are more effective, they will be able to easily compete with the ganking and tanking of armor because they will have speed and good electronics. By reducing the electronics part, you remove one of the main upsides to using shields- speed and stealth Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. General Tso's Alliance 81	Posted - 2014.02.16 09:10:00 - [70] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. Also decrease the shield penalty down to armor penalty levels. 7% for a complex shield? Crazy... Does it apply to regular delay too? It feels like it. I don't believe it does. It is a pretty damn steep penalty for the fitting cost/eHP gain. I don't agree with the assertion made by Cat Merc. PRO shields aren't balanced with PRO armor because of two things. Any armor tank can fit damage mods for one thing and the shield regen delay penalty on shields isn't in step with the speed penalty on armor. Armor gets 135 at PRO but shields only get 66. I get that shields regen but armor can be repaired and often is (Logis like those triage points). Adding any sort of regen penalty to shield extenders (especially one that increases with meta level) makes that 66 HP gain worse and worse. What I don't get...this game is closely affiliated with Eve, right? Shield extenders have a dramatic effect on a ships signature...so why don't shield extenders have an equally dramatic effect on signature radius instead of shield depleted regen delay? Armor has a penalty on speed. That inherently makes the user more vulnerable. The benefit for wearing shields is greater speed and flexibility, right? So why not make them glowing beacons of RED DOT on the radar while they run circles around armor tanked people? That would be a much more parallel penalty in my eyes to the armor movement penalty AND would jive with the effects of shield extenders in Eve.

Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1358	Posted - 2014.02.16 09:28:00 - [71] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Protocake JR wrote: The biggest difference is the fact that "teamwork" is treated as a balancing factor between shields and armor. Armor gets pathetically low reps, and if you want to increase it by any respectable amount you need to sacrifice TONS of armor health to achieve a very small amount of health regeneration. y. True.But there are Armor Repping Tools and Nanohives. Equipments that COVER these weakness. Shields dont have anything to cover their weakness ( having less HP ) and instead get 1HKO'd by Flux grenades. <..< Did you read my entire post? I'm pretty sure I cover that in the next segment. The PC and SL should fit into the Sidearm slot so it's accessible and practical to carry one. AV spam vs V spam
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 642	Posted - 2014.02.16 21:16:00 - [72] - Quote Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: NK Scout wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Increasing STD and ADV shields HP = Good Increasing PRO shields HP = BAD PRO shields are balanced with PRO armor, STD and ADV is where the problem lies. Also decrease the shield penalty down to armor penalty levels. 7% for a complex shield? Crazy... Does it apply to regular delay too? It feels like it. I don't believe it does. It is a pretty damn steep penalty for the fitting cost/eHP gain. I don't agree with the assertion made by Cat Merc. PRO shields aren't balanced with PRO armor because of two things. Any armor tank can fit damage mods for one thing and the shield regen delay penalty on shields isn't in step with the speed penalty on armor. Armor gets 135 at PRO but shields only get 66. I get that shields regen but armor can be repaired and often is (Logis like those triage points). Adding any sort of regen penalty to shield extenders (especially one that increases with meta level) makes that 66 HP gain worse and worse. What I don't get...this game is closely affiliated with Eve, right? Shield extenders have a dramatic effect on a ships signature...so why don't shield extenders have an equally dramatic effect on signature radius instead of shield depleted regen delay? Armor has a penalty on speed. That inherently makes the user more vulnerable. The benefit for wearing shields is greater speed and flexibility, right? So why not make them glowing beacons of RED DOT on the radar while they run circles around armor tanked people? That would be a much more parallel penalty in my eyes to the armor movement penalty AND would jive with the effects of shield extenders in Eve. The problem with this is that currently the only strength that shield tankers have is speed and stealth, and by taking that away, you invalidate anything that shield tankers have spent SP to do. The problem is that shields have very low HP, so are only viable for hit and run tactics, and thus NEED the stealth. Speed tanking no longer exists, as armor tankers with damage mods and aim assist invalidate any of that Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Tectonic Fusion 1058	Posted - 2014.02.16 21:28:00 - [73] - Quote Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: So why not make them glowing beacons of RED DOT on the radar while they run circles around armor tanked people? Because that would make Caldari and Minmatar scouts suck. EDIT: HYDERPOO Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 644	Posted - 2014.02.16 21:59:00 - [74] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: So why not make them glowing beacons of RED DOT on the radar while they run circles around armor tanked people? Because that would make Caldari and Minmatar scouts suck. EDIT: HYDERPOO exactly Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 260	Posted - 2014.02.16 22:43:00 - [75] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: the problem isn't only Hp, but the tiering should be 44 55 66 if we want to keep complex the same as it is now. Currently, my proposed buff is only 6 hp,which is negligible, but makes it so that armor doesn't give more than 2x as much as a shield extender, but instead slightly less. The real problem is fittings believe it or not. Armor plates currently work very well in conjunction with damage mods because they fit together with ease, however, shield extenders have far too much pg to be fitted with a lot of biotics in the low module slots. Are my fitting requirement changes fair in your opinions? Armor plates are supposed to 2x because as a rule of thumb, half your slots are dedicated to armor repairers. In the end most armor suits don't have nearly as much HP as people think, it's in the 500~ area. This is true, but armor tankers still have a high regen shield buffer on top of their primary armor tank, while shield tankers have to rely on a non regenerative armor buffer UNDER their primary shield tank. Obviously, this gives armor tankers a significant advantage in this respect solely from the mechanics of shields vs. armor. Armor tankers have a reliable buffer on top of their primary tank, preventing an initial burst of damage from doing significant damage and allowing their armor more time to regenerate. Shield tankers have to deal with the fact that their primary line of defense is their FIRST line of defense, meaning every bit of damage taken is significant to their primary HP. I've run shield tanked Minmatar Assaults and armor tanked Gallente Scouts, and I can honestly say that 6hp/s armor repair with a k-17/D NH on my scout is much more efficient than the 22.5hp/s shield regen with 1hp/s armor rep on my assault. They both have about the same total eHP, but my scout has significantly more long term survivability, despite having presumably worse repair. The difference is the 87-160 shield buffer on the Gallente scout, as the first 87-160 damage of every encounter is essentially negated, meaning I take less damage to my armor. Once the damage is taken, I can continue to fight with a bit more caution, as I know that I can always take some damage without sacrificing armor. In the event that I take major damage, I can fall back, drop a hive, and possibly get help from a logi. The shield-based assault, on the other hand, is forced to retreat after taking any significant damage and stay under cover until fully healed. In the event that I have my shields completely reduced, I am guaranteed to have to hide for at least 18 seconds until I have enough shields to fight again. There is no chance of continuing to fight while waiting, as any damage taken will prolong the wait and possibly result in having to start completely over.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 646	Posted - 2014.02.17 01:17:00 - [76] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: This is true, but armor tankers still have a high regen shield buffer on top of their primary armor tank, while shield tankers have to rely on a non regenerative armor buffer UNDER their primary shield tank. Obviously, this gives armor tankers a significant advantage in this respect solely from the mechanics of shields vs. armor. Armor tankers have a reliable buffer on top of their primary tank, preventing an initial burst of damage from doing significant damage and allowing their armor more time to regenerate. Shield tankers have to deal with the fact that their primary line of defense is their FIRST line of defense, meaning every bit of damage taken is significant to their primary HP. I've run shield tanked Minmatar Assaults and armor tanked Gallente Scouts, and I can honestly say that 6hp/s armor repair with a k-17/D NH on my scout is much more efficient than the 22.5hp/s shield regen with 1hp/s armor rep on my assault. They both have about the same total eHP, but my scout has significantly more long term survivability, despite having presumably worse repair. The difference is the 87-160 shield buffer on the Gallente scout, as the first 87-160 damage of every encounter is essentially negated, meaning I take less damage to my armor. Once the damage is taken, I can continue to fight with a bit more caution, as I know that I can always take some damage without sacrificing armor. In the event that I take major damage, I can fall back, drop a hive, and possibly get help from a logi. The shield-based assault, on the other hand, is forced to retreat after taking any significant damage and stay under cover until fully healed. In the event that I have my shields completely reduced, I am guaranteed to have to hide for at least 18 seconds until I have enough shields to fight again. There is no chance of continuing to fight while waiting, as any damage taken will prolong the wait and possibly result in having to start completely over. This right here is exactly why it is so backwards for shield to have so much less HP than armor, and not enough pg to fit complementary modules Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 648	Posted - 2014.02.17 03:52:00 - [77] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Protocake JR wrote: The biggest difference is the fact that "teamwork" is treated as a balancing factor between shields and armor. Armor gets pathetically low reps, and if you want to increase it by any respectable amount you need to sacrifice TONS of armor health to achieve a very small amount of health regeneration. y. True.But there are Armor Repping Tools and Nanohives. Equipments that COVER these weakness. Shields dont have anything to cover their weakness ( having less HP ) and instead get 1HKO'd by Flux grenades. <..< Did you read my entire post? I'm pretty sure I cover that in the next segment. Protocake, what are is your specific opinion about the numbers in my OP? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. General Tso's Alliance 83	Posted - 2014.02.17 06:49:00 - [78] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: ... Because that would make Caldari and Minmatar scouts suck. EDIT: HYDERPOO Gavr1lo Pr1nc1 wrote: exactly I do see this problem. My inelegant solution would be to make shield extender variants, just like the armor variants. Why are there three kinds of armor plates but only one kind of shield extender? Standard plates give penalties but ferroscale and reactive plates do different things with different bonuses and requirements. Why not have different kinds of energy field or something where scouts could load up on lower shield/no penalty variants and leave the signature radius problems to the rest of us. I also think that shield regens should either get some serious loving in the high slots or be moved to low slots. That might shift around some strategies. As a slow ass Cal Logi, my problem isn't being spotted on radar. I can't get out to revive people because my HP is low (even though I'm half-assed hybrid tanked) and because my suits are so slow. I need more HP from my shields. Even when I can take a hit, when I duck back around to safety it takes forever and a half for my shields to start regenerating thanks to the ridiculous shield regen penalty. I went shield tank initially because I thought I'd be lighter on my feet but I had to add armor because even a pure shield tanked Cal Logi is still slow as hell and I was getting railroaded. CCP needs to higher a couple fresh minds who can work on balance. Balance will keep people playing longer than some new whizz-bang weapon or suit...
Spectre-M The Generals General Tso's Alliance 279	Posted - 2014.02.17 07:02:00 - [79] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: My shields supply an infinite amount of hp. I don't have to fit anything to receive this regen. I take cover they come back. If I wanted a different play style I would skill into armor. Armor is reliable and slow. Repairing it takes some effort. I can't just pop in and out of cover. I have to go lick my wounds or rely on something else. I see nothing wrong with having choices. Spot on. Also when TTK is a little higher I think the differences in the 2 types will be much more evident and unique. The immediate advantage is still noticeable and at range they perform very well. I'd still like to see the shield support modules become more attractive. Amarr Factional Warfare Loyalist Minnmatar in Amarr Armor I am a Wolf in Sheeps Clothing
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2208	Posted - 2014.02.17 07:33:00 - [80] - Quote No to shield extender buff. You would just use the spare PG to put armor plates on and bricktank. What you should do is either use biotics or profile dampaners on your lowslots. They do work and because every muppet is running with a actve scanner around they wouldnt even notice you if you would stand 20m infront of them. I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun

NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 414	Posted - 2014.02.17 07:45:00 - [81] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: No to shield extender buff. You would just use the spare PG to put armor plates on and bricktank. What you should do is either use biotics or profile dampaners on your lowslots. They do work and because every muppet is running with a actve scanner around they wouldnt even notice you if you would stand 20m infront of them. 2 basic dampeners dont work, you need 3 after i scanned a nyan san scout mk.0 in my stealth logi i killed him and terminated him 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 652	Posted - 2014.02.17 15:57:00 - [82] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: No to shield extender buff. You would just use the spare PG to put armor plates on and bricktank. What you should do is either use biotics or profile dampaners on your lowslots. They do work and because every muppet is running with a actve scanner around they wouldnt even notice you if you would stand 20m infront of them. The problem is biotics cost more Pg than armor, therefore, the extra Pg is necessary. A good solution to brick tanking would be to make extenders have anhp reduction if armor plates are equipped and vice versa. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 652	Posted - 2014.02.17 17:06:00 - [83] - Quote Updated the OP Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC Intara Direct Action Caldari State 271	Posted - 2014.02.17 22:52:00 - [84] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The only real problems are fitting requirements and hp versus level. Right now, armor plates only have to be at ADV and are the best HP bonuser in the game, all things considered. Plates allow for easily stacked damage mods in the highs, as they should (plates=high pg low cpu, damage mods=high cpu low pg). However, shield extenders are only effective at prototype level, as STD and ADV give only 1/3 and 1/2 of the hp respectively. In addition, the fitting requirements on shield extenders are so very high that they are difficult to run much of anything past basic gear on. Extenders are supposed to allow for greater mobility so that they can leverage the suits superior shield regeneration, and thus should be coupled with Pg intensive biotic modules in the low slots. However, the fitting costs on extenders in the Pg department do not allow for this, unlike how armor's low cpu usage allows for damage mod usage. A great easy number tweaking would fix all of the aforementioned problems. EDITS: change speed penalty to 3/4/5 for armor plates as well so that proto plates are more attractive for use STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (44 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 22 CPU) vs (58 shields, 4 PG, 30 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 34 CPU) vs (72 shields, 7 PG, 54 CPU) Bump
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 666	Posted - 2014.02.17 23:35:00 - [85] - Quote INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: The only real problems are fitting requirements and hp versus level. Right now, armor plates only have to be at ADV and are the best HP bonuser in the game, all things considered. Plates allow for easily stacked damage mods in the highs, as they should (plates=high pg low cpu, damage mods=high cpu low pg). However, shield extenders are only effective at prototype level, as STD and ADV give only 1/3 and 1/2 of the hp respectively. In addition, the fitting requirements on shield extenders are so very high that they are difficult to run much of anything past basic gear on. Extenders are supposed to allow for greater mobility so that they can leverage the suits superior shield regeneration, and thus should be coupled with Pg intensive biotic modules in the low slots. However, the fitting costs on extenders in the Pg department do not allow for this, unlike how armor's low cpu usage allows for damage mod usage. A great easy number tweaking would fix all of the aforementioned problems. EDITS: change speed penalty to 3/4/5 for armor plates as well so that proto plates are more attractive for use STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (44 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 22 CPU) vs (58 shields, 4 PG, 30 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 34 CPU) vs (72 shields, 7 PG, 54 CPU) Bump So you agree with these changes? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 705	Posted - 2014.02.20 00:30:00 - [86] - Quote NK Scout wrote: The dark cloud wrote: No to shield extender buff. You would just use the spare PG to put armor plates on and bricktank. What you should do is either use biotics or profile dampaners on your lowslots. They do work and because every muppet is running with a actve scanner around they wouldnt even notice you if you would stand 20m infront of them. 2 basic dampeners dont work, you need 3 after i scanned a nyan san scout mk.0 in my stealth logi i killed him and terminated him I didn't know nyan san ran minmitar scoutsGÇª.doesnt it require too much skill? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 461	Posted - 2014.02.20 00:50:00 - [87] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: NK Scout wrote: The dark cloud wrote: No to shield extender buff. You would just use the spare PG to put armor plates on and bricktank. What you should do is either use biotics or profile dampaners on your lowslots. They do work and because every muppet is running with a actve scanner around they wouldnt even notice you if you would stand 20m infront of them. 2 basic dampeners dont work, you need 3 after i scanned a nyan san scout mk.0 in my stealth logi i killed him and terminated him I didn't know nyan san ran minmitar scoutsGÇª.doesnt it require too much skill? They brick tanked it, i scanned it with a basic scanner 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 705	Posted - 2014.02.20 00:58:00 - [88] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: NK Scout wrote: The dark cloud wrote: No to shield extender buff. You would just use the spare PG to put armor plates on and bricktank. What you should do is either use biotics or profile dampaners on your lowslots. They do work and because every muppet is running with a actve scanner around they wouldnt even notice you if you would stand 20m infront of them. 2 basic dampeners dont work, you need 3 after i scanned a nyan san scout mk.0 in my stealth logi i killed him and terminated him I didn't know nyan san ran minmitar scoutsGÇª.doesnt it require too much skill? They brick tanked it, i scanned it with a basic scanner it was probably just a light frame then hahaha Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 713	Posted - 2014.02.21 03:05:00 - [89] - Quote bumping for justice Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 1118	Posted - 2014.02.21 03:30:00 - [90] - Quote Just take the shield penalty away? It never really mattered that much to keep it, imo. The "penalty" that shield users have against armor is that they can't be stacked on the same way. You can't stack damage mods and can't get 450+ shields with little effort. You do have mobility and a big repair once it starts up. Buff the other shield based modules of course, along with nerfing the fitting usage of the Reactive Plates and Ferroscale Modules(although I'd argue also giving Ferroscales a small speed penalty as well because having 500+ Armor on someone with base speed is damn near OP in my book). "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 716	Posted - 2014.02.21 16:12:00 - [91] - Quote Roy Ventus wrote: Just take the shield penalty away? It never really mattered that much to keep it, imo. The "penalty" that shield users have against armor is that they can't be stacked on the same way. You can't stack damage mods and can't get 450+ shields with little effort. You do have mobility and a big repair once it starts up. Buff the other shield based modules of course, along with nerfing the fitting usage of the Reactive Plates and Ferroscale Modules(although I'd argue also giving Ferroscales a small speed penalty as well because having 500+ Armor on someone with base speed is damn near OP in my book). what do you think about buffing basic and advanced extenders to keep the extender scaling in line with armor? Also, do you think that the Pg costs on extenders is too high? Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1679	Posted - 2014.02.21 18:10:00 - [92] - Quote i must agree that shield extenders need a buff to half the value of their armor counter part per tier (std, adv, proto, etc). or at east all minmatar dropsuits need an innate bonus to shield extenders because they have no survivability Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3489	Posted - 2014.02.21 18:26:00 - [93] - Quote The proposed shield stats put their costs lower than armor. Putting aside the balance issues. The "high" slots are so-called because they're "high power", right? This is as opposed to "low power" slots. Is it logical that the "high power" module that is literally an energy shield requires less power than the "low power" module that is literally armored plates? Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 737	Posted - 2014.02.21 21:20:00 - [94] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: The proposed shield stats put their costs lower than armor. Putting aside the balance issues. The "high" slots are so-called because they're "high power", right? This is as opposed to "low power" slots. Is it logical that the "high power" module that is literally an energy shield requires less power than the "low power" module that is literally armored plates? The idea is that high power slots take more of the suits CPU, and less PG, whereas low slots do the opposite. I agree that it is rather non-sensical in terms of reality, however, in terms of intra game balancing, it makes perfect sense. Also, ill check to make sure that extenders and plates cost the same. I thought they did, but i may be wrong Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 743	Posted - 2014.02.21 22:38:00 - [95] - Quote updated the OP to make shield extender and armor plate CPU/PG requirements equal, assuming 1 Pg=5 CPU Actual average of prototype suits in terms of CPU:PG ratio is between 4.7 and 5.2 CPU per PG Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 743	Posted - 2014.02.21 22:49:00 - [96] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: The proposed shield stats put their costs lower than armor. Putting aside the balance issues. The "high" slots are so-called because they're "high power", right? This is as opposed to "low power" slots. Is it logical that the "high power" module that is literally an energy shield requires less power than the "low power" module that is literally armored plates? Fixed it in the OP, as well as adding other reasons why to increase shield extenders Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3494	Posted - 2014.02.22 04:30:00 - [97] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: The proposed shield stats put their costs lower than armor. Putting aside the balance issues. The "high" slots are so-called because they're "high power", right? This is as opposed to "low power" slots. Is it logical that the "high power" module that is literally an energy shield requires less power than the "low power" module that is literally armored plates? Fixed it in the OP, as well as adding other reasons why to increase shield extenders I have my own issues with armor plates. As far as buffing or making large shifts to shield or armor balance, I think it might be wise to keep to changes that make the current growth of power reqs/penalties linear across both regular shields and armor instead of more marked changes. Why? Well, they're about to release a bunch of new suits, nerf damage mods, drop damage on several weapons, and they were considering nerfs to proficiency at the same time. It all adds up to a huge set of changes. Fix the linear bit, then see about adjust hp after the huge set of changes. I have a suspicion that the nerf to damage mods might make shield extenders more popular -- Since there's no drawback to dual tanking and practically nothing else useful for high slots. The lack of viable high slot options has to be made apparent to CCP before they'll take the notion of shield changes seriously because all their data now shows that they're super popular. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 757	Posted - 2014.02.22 04:33:00 - [98] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: The proposed shield stats put their costs lower than armor. Putting aside the balance issues. The "high" slots are so-called because they're "high power", right? This is as opposed to "low power" slots. Is it logical that the "high power" module that is literally an energy shield requires less power than the "low power" module that is literally armored plates? Fixed it in the OP, as well as adding other reasons why to increase shield extenders I have my own issues with armor plates. As far as buffing or making large shifts to shield or armor balance, I think it might be wise to keep to changes that make the current growth of power reqs/penalties linear across both regular shields and armor instead of more marked changes. Why? Well, they're about to release a bunch of new suits, nerf damage mods, drop damage on several weapons, and they were considering nerfs to proficiency at the same time. It all adds up to a huge set of changes. Fix the linear bit, then see about adjust hp after the huge set of changes. I have a suspicion that the nerf to damage mods might make shield extenders more popular -- Since there's no drawback to dual tanking and practically nothing else useful for high slots. The lack of viable high slot options has to be made apparent to CCP before they'll take the notion of shield changes seriously because all their data now shows that they're super popular. read my sig, it has a bunch of fixes for everything you talked about. But yeah, next patch dual tanking will be very popular, and unfortunately CCP will decide that shield extenders need a nerf... Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 769	Posted - 2014.02.22 21:35:00 - [99] - Quote CCP, if you're out there, please at least tell the community what your plans are for remedying the shield and armor disparity Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1772	Posted - 2014.02.22 21:59:00 - [100] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: The biggest difference is the fact that "teamwork" is treated as a balancing factor between shields and armor. Armor gets pathetically low reps, and if you want to increase it by any respectable amount you need to sacrifice TONS of armor health to achieve a very small amount of health regeneration. However, you could just stack plates in all your lows and rely on repair hives and repair tools to achieve greater health AND greater regen than shields (no delay, higher regen per second). This is not okay. Armor should have a small native regeneration rate rather than none at all. Shields need their own version of "repair tools" and "repair hives" that give them shield related benefits. And CCP, just please get rid of all the penalties. The only reason shields have a penalty is because armor has one (for some reason). The only logical reason I can think of why armor plates must have a speed penalty is so that we won't have scouts running at full speed with 700+ armor health. That's fine, but there are other solutions to that. Armor penalty is just lazy and penalizes other suits that don't need to be penalized. CCP needs to design suits so that modules affect them differently than another suit of a different frame. Light suits get less hp from a plate/extender than mediums. Mediums get less hp from a plate/extender than heavies. Light suits get more reps from repairs/rechargers than mediums. Mediums get more reps from repairs/rechargers than heavies. And so on.... And i'm sure CCP could design an even better system. However, they are working with old designs from years ago that they are trying to salvage, back when they thought they could make any piece of trash as quick as they can (I'm actually thankful they didn't release PVE in 2012, would have been another rushed piece of garbage). Oh, and things like PG, CPU, and ISK are very, very, very, VERY minor balancing points. They have nothing to do with moment to moment gameplay, so they should not be considered when balancing armor and shields for moment to moment gameplay. If your going to remove the Speed penalty from Armor, and give it natural regen, Extenders better see a buff. Or Plates better see a nerf. One of the two. Looking for a Interesting Character Name? Why Not Zoidberg?

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 966	Posted - 2014.02.22 22:35:00 - [101] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Protocake JR wrote: The biggest difference is the fact that "teamwork" is treated as a balancing factor between shields and armor. Armor gets pathetically low reps, and if you want to increase it by any respectable amount you need to sacrifice TONS of armor health to achieve a very small amount of health regeneration. However, you could just stack plates in all your lows and rely on repair hives and repair tools to achieve greater health AND greater regen than shields (no delay, higher regen per second). This is not okay. Armor should have a small native regeneration rate rather than none at all. Shields need their own version of "repair tools" and "repair hives" that give them shield related benefits. And CCP, just please get rid of all the penalties. The only reason shields have a penalty is because armor has one (for some reason). The only logical reason I can think of why armor plates must have a speed penalty is so that we won't have scouts running at full speed with 700+ armor health. That's fine, but there are other solutions to that. Armor penalty is just lazy and penalizes other suits that don't need to be penalized. CCP needs to design suits so that modules affect them differently than another suit of a different frame. Light suits get less hp from a plate/extender than mediums. Mediums get less hp from a plate/extender than heavies. Light suits get more reps from repairs/rechargers than mediums. Mediums get more reps from repairs/rechargers than heavies. And so on.... And i'm sure CCP could design an even better system. However, they are working with old designs from years ago that they are trying to salvage, back when they thought they could make any piece of trash as quick as they can (I'm actually thankful they didn't release PVE in 2012, would have been another rushed piece of garbage). Oh, and things like PG, CPU, and ISK are very, very, very, VERY minor balancing points. They have nothing to do with moment to moment gameplay, so they should not be considered when balancing armor and shields for moment to moment gameplay. If your going to remove the Speed penalty from Armor, and give it natural regen, Extenders better see a buff. Or Plates better see a nerf. One of the two. They currently need the speed penalty to stay balanced or else you would see gallente scouts as super FoTM's, with amarr scouts right behind Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 966	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:13:00 - [102] - Quote shameless bump Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 980	Posted - 2014.02.27 03:46:00 - [103] - Quote bump Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 1042	Posted - 2014.03.03 23:36:00 - [104] - Quote bump Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!


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