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Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
410
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Posted - 2014.02.15 21:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
here is the problem I see w/ shield vs armor. Since the introduction of the game, armor has received 2 addition types, along w/ a penalty reduction to the standard plates. Whereas shield have only seen a penalty invoked to them.
Prior to the current build of 1.6 w/ logi and thusly 1.7; is has shown that armor tanker outweighs shield tanking in every situation (more or less).
One of the biggest aids to this, is that any damage to shields is don't with "ease" even through natural damage reduction, compared to armor seemingly being harder to rip through. If you look at the use of an SMG since the game has been around; the smg rips through shields just as easily as any other weapon, even though it has a 20% reduction to shield; but it is almost nullified w/ of the rof it puts out damage.
Yes, shields do have a natural regen, that is about the only benefit they have compared to armor (aside from movement penalty, but even that is nullified with new armor plates). As w/ amount of people armor tanking, lots of logi's run repps, and can run repping hives which can "almost" nullify damage in 1v1 battles
In my opinion, a possibly "fix" would be 2 things occurring:
1). Add a 2nd extender type with the current penalty, but increase their hp buffer to be more inline with original armor plates. By doing that, you can keep the current extenders as is (though prob change still to 33-44-66 respectively, which would be in line w/ the new non penalty armor plates)
ex: 60-80-100 , w/ the penalty of current extenders.
2). Alter the CPU/PG costs of plates. Simply put can probably keep cpu as is, but pg should be lowered around the horn on extenders, especially at proto level |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
410
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 21:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Berserker007 wrote:here is the problem I see w/ shield vs armor. Since the introduction of the game, armor has received 2 addition types, along w/ a penalty reduction to the standard plates. Whereas shield have only seen a penalty invoked to them.
Prior to the current build of 1.6 w/ logi and thusly 1.7; is has shown that armor tanker outweighs shield tanking in every situation (more or less).
One of the biggest aids to this, is that any damage to shields is don't with "ease" even through natural damage reduction, compared to armor seemingly being harder to rip through. If you look at the use of an SMG since the game has been around; the smg rips through shields just as easily as any other weapon, even though it has a 20% reduction to shield; but it is almost nullified w/ of the rof it puts out damage.
Yes, shields do have a natural regen, that is about the only benefit they have compared to armor (aside from movement penalty, but even that is nullified with new armor plates). As w/ amount of people armor tanking, lots of logi's run repps, and can run repping hives which can "almost" nullify damage in 1v1 battles
In my opinion, a possibly "fix" would be 2 things occurring:
1). Add a 2nd extender type with the current penalty, but increase their hp buffer to be more inline with original armor plates. By doing that, you can keep the current extenders as is (though prob change still to 33-44-66 respectively, which would be in line w/ the new non penalty armor plates)
ex: 60-80-100 , w/ the penalty of current extenders.
2). Alter the CPU/PG costs of plates. Simply put can probably keep cpu as is, but pg should be lowered around the horn on extenders, especially at proto level So do you believe extenders need a lower CPU and PG cost, and better scaling?
not CPU, but to be incline w/ how EvE works, slightly lower PG yes (mean like 2pg less at proto). And yes, I think scalling is needed for shield b/c of how easy shield melt compared to armor. Along with that, it may help "balance" out shields to survive damage-mod armor tankers (as is, you can tank and dps), so this will allow shield tanker to semi counter that; and if shield want to use a damage mod; it is more of a health penalty then (so there is a cost-benefit to their use then, along w/ the current penalty shield extenders have) |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
410
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Posted - 2014.02.15 21:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:
Do you agree with the numbers that i put in my OP?
44 hp at STd, 58 at ADV, and 72 at PRO, with a 4 pg reduction at PRO?
I would say no. Reason for it, as the increase is to minimal to make a difference. It is only a 10% increase, so after the extenders passive bonus, there is still only a increase of 7 shields. If you look at a Caldari assault for ex: that means all you get is an extra 28hp, which is to minimal to make a difference. That is .5-1 bullet difference.
One thing I'd say would need to be taken into account is which armor plates most people use. As is, even with your proposed changes, a proto armor plate still equal 2x of shield. So if 2 people run respective assault suits; as shield tanker would have to use all 4 high slots to equate the hp use of just 2 low slots (for the 130 plates) for the armor tanker (and cant say one has penalty, b/c both do now). Pending on what else the armor tanker has, he can fit a rep, and possibly a cpu upgrade or something. Combine that with a combo hive (both armor and ammo), he can still shield tank or damage mod his high slots. Where as, a shield tanker would HAVE to dedicate at least one slot to a CPU upgrade (as you have to in order to fit), and one slot would be a regulator. At that point you leave 1 low slot for a rep to help in case you hit armor; or some other module, but once your shield are down you need to wait for them to return as you wouldn't be able to rep any armor damage unless have a logi or repping hive (which u wouldn't most likely being a shield tanker)
In that type of scenario, which im assuming most armor tanker use anyway; you are looking at roughly the same amount of ehp b/t the suits; yet the armor tanker can buffer w/ extra shield or get more damage w/ damage mods, whereas the shield tanker cannot. Once you melt his shield (which you do easily no matter the weapon, aside from MD maybe), he would need to run or be more careful where an armor tanker has more flexibility in what they can do. |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
411
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:
Do you agree with the numbers that i put in my OP?
44 hp at STd, 58 at ADV, and 72 at PRO, with a 4 pg reduction at PRO?
I would say no. Reason for it, as the increase is to minimal to make a difference. It is only a 10% increase, so after the extenders passive bonus, there is still only a increase of 7 shields. If you look at a Caldari assault for ex: that means all you get is an extra 28hp, which is to minimal to make a difference. That is .5-1 bullet difference. One thing I'd say would need to be taken into account is which armor plates most people use. As is, even with your proposed changes, a proto armor plate still equal 2x of shield. So if 2 people run respective assault suits; as shield tanker would have to use all 4 high slots to equate the hp use of just 2 low slots (for the 130 plates) for the armor tanker (and cant say one has penalty, b/c both do now). Pending on what else the armor tanker has, he can fit a rep, and possibly a cpu upgrade or something. Combine that with a combo hive (both armor and ammo), he can still shield tank or damage mod his high slots. Where as, a shield tanker would HAVE to dedicate at least one slot to a CPU upgrade (as you have to in order to fit), and one slot would be a regulator. At that point you leave 1 low slot for a rep to help in case you hit armor; or some other module, but once your shield are down you need to wait for them to return as you wouldn't be able to rep any armor damage unless have a logi or repping hive (which u wouldn't most likely being a shield tanker) In that type of scenario, which im assuming most armor tanker use anyway; you are looking at roughly the same amount of ehp b/t the suits; yet the armor tanker can buffer w/ extra shield or get more damage w/ damage mods, whereas the shield tanker cannot. Once you melt his shield (which you do easily no matter the weapon, aside from MD maybe), he would need to run or be more careful where an armor tanker has more flexibility in what they can do. So i generated these numbers by using 72 shield as my baseline for prototype, and then scaling STD and ADV shields in the same way as STD and ADV plates are scaled. What do you think about the fitting requirements at least?
id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion) |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
414
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Berserker007 wrote: id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion)
Thanks!
np at all. Like said, this is important to get right. As I believe w/ the pg reduction and a extender increase, it will bring that more into balance with the value of armor |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
414
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Posted - 2014.02.15 22:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Berserker007 wrote: id say your fitting was pretty spot on; the pg reduction is what will really help out extenders use (along with a high buffer extender in my opinion)
Thanks! np at all. Like said, this is important to get right. As I believe w/ the pg reduction and a extender increase, it will being that more into balance with the value of armor Agreed, I'm glad this community has people as clearheaded as you
lol, thanks; prob helped I haven't played or been around much. Hell if I had, id of been crazy enough to try for CPM1 |
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