DUST Search - The dominance of long-range weapons.

Vespasian Andendare wrote:

Everyone knows that the current FOTM are the Rail Rifle and Combat Rifles. Sure, these are the two newest weapons, and they may be slightly overtuned, but the real issue is that they are extremely effective at long ranges (intended), and still quite effective when in CQC (intended?). And with the published stats to the Magsec, Bolt and Ion pistols, there are seemingly no changes that are on the horizon to fix this.

Compare those two new rifles to our old faithful trusty companion, the Assault Rifle, and while it is extremely effective close range (doing the most damage, smallest spread), the detriment to using it at long ranges is fairly high: it stops functioning, it doesn't hit its target, or the damage is so incidental as to not matter. The problem is that the Rail and Combat rifles are more effective at close ranges than the Assault rifle is at long ranges; there's not the same degree of "reverse falloff" that afflicts the RR and CR at close ranges that the AR experiences when firing past effective range.

One solution would be to dramatically increase the dispersion of the RR and CR up close--this would make them very ineffective while hip firing (especially so for the assault versions (talking more spread than an unskilled SMG puts out)), but very well when aiming down scope. Another possibility would be to create a "minimum range" where those two offenders would have very little damage up close (akin to the AR's incidental damage at long ranges). There needs to be an incentive for a RR or CR user to swap to their sidearm in CQC, and the "burst" fire mode of the CR or spool up time on the RR are largely negated by the Assault variant of the CR and the fact that the dispersion while hip firing the RR is too good (the base burst firing mode of the CR is a fairly big drawback, requiring constant trigger pulls).

Without some major change to the close damage-dealing power of the "long range weapons," they'll continue to dominate over any short- to medium-range weapon due to the extreme detriment of using weapons with very short optimal and effective ranges vs weapons that perform great at long ranges and well at close ones.

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Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 563	Posted - 2014.02.03 21:39:00 - [1] - Quote Everyone knows that the current FOTM are the Rail Rifle and Combat Rifles. Sure, these are the two newest weapons, and they may be slightly overtuned, but the real issue is that they are extremely effective at long ranges (intended), and still quite effective when in CQC (intended?). And with the published stats to the Magsec, Bolt and Ion pistols, there are seemingly no changes that are on the horizon to fix this. Compare those two new rifles to our old faithful trusty companion, the Assault Rifle, and while it is extremely effective close range (doing the most damage, smallest spread), the detriment to using it at long ranges is fairly high: it stops functioning, it doesn't hit its target, or the damage is so incidental as to not matter. The problem is that the Rail and Combat rifles are more effective at close ranges than the Assault rifle is at long ranges; there's not the same degree of "reverse falloff" that afflicts the RR and CR at close ranges that the AR experiences when firing past effective range. One solution would be to dramatically increase the dispersion of the RR and CR up close--this would make them very ineffective while hip firing (especially so for the assault versions (talking more spread than an unskilled SMG puts out)), but very well when aiming down scope. Another possibility would be to create a "minimum range" where those two offenders would have very little damage up close (akin to the AR's incidental damage at long ranges). There needs to be an incentive for a RR or CR user to swap to their sidearm in CQC, and the "burst" fire mode of the CR or spool up time on the RR are largely negated by the Assault variant of the CR and the fact that the dispersion while hip firing the RR is too good (the base burst firing mode of the CR is a fairly big drawback, requiring constant trigger pulls). Without some major change to the close damage-dealing power of the "long range weapons," they'll continue to dominate over any short- to medium-range weapon due to the extreme detriment of using weapons with very short optimal and effective ranges vs weapons that perform great at long ranges and well at close ones. >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 73	Posted - 2014.02.03 21:47:00 - [2] - Quote Maybe you should alter your op a bit - CR is supposed to be good close to mid. Maybe it can be toned down a bit; delay between bursts increased or RoF decreased. The AR can also be given a slight damage increase and sharper fall off in damage but both weapons are supposed to do well in close range. RR needs a bit of work, possibly spool time increase and hipfire accuracy lessened. "Shine bright like a diamond"
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 564	Posted - 2014.02.03 22:18:00 - [3] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Maybe you should alter your op a bit - CR is supposed to be good close to mid. Maybe it can be toned down a bit; delay between bursts increased or RoF decreased. The AR can also be given a slight damage increase and sharper fall off in damage but both weapons are supposed to do well in close range. RR needs a bit of work, possibly spool time increase and hipfire accuracy lessened. True about the CR. I was more looking at the optimal and effective ranges from this post; I see that it slots in between the AR and SR, but its still 15 meters farther in its optimal range (close to 38% longer optimal) than an AR. I guess this range works out about right, given the burst nature of the rifle, and its assault variant is only 5 meters longer optimal than a comparable AR. >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2461	Posted - 2014.02.03 22:23:00 - [4] - Quote A better solution IMO lies in map design If we had some installations with more enclosed spaces then suddenly the ARs range limitations are rendered moot It would be a boon for some of the non rifle weapons as well such as having to worry about a shotgunner lurking behind that corner in a hallway rather than that corner being in an open field giving you a wide berth around it out of the danger zone Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
Squagga The State Protectorate 124	Posted - 2014.02.03 22:29:00 - [5] - Quote I've taken into consideration that everybodies playstyle is simply their own. With that being said I believe that the older iron sights would help long range fire with the Gallente AR. Also I think that a scope would be better and it should be an otpion for all rifles. But then that would mess around with the assault variants of the other rifles, which should prolly just get taken out of the equation and scopes should be implemented, as an option Reloading, the silent killer.
Havaru Fox Golden Empire of EvE 1	Posted - 2014.02.03 22:47:00 - [6] - Quote why not just give the race suits a bonus for the race guns (while we need more guns for that) assault gets bonus for mid close,mid and long (based on suit type if you want a fast med suit) scout for sniper and close range weapons heavy for close range and mid + heavy weapons while i really have to say that i'm a bit bored of the "weapon x is op" stuff. yes, if i know from where you're coming, then i can kill you with a long/mid range gun in a close up fight, is you stand in front of me... thats REAL! maybe they should rework the price, so a proto "lil machinegun" dosnt cost as much as a "T2" rifle, since close fight people die more anyway. but i'm really, really bored if all this QQ here. whats next week? i came to a gunfight with a knife and he killed me.. guns'r OP?!?? << Support the EvE League>>
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 8904	Posted - 2014.02.03 22:53:00 - [7] - Quote When will CCP realise that you can't give weapons higher range AND higher DPS? ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 564	Posted - 2014.02.03 23:01:00 - [8] - Quote Havaru Fox wrote: why not just give the race suits a bonus for the race guns (while we need more guns for that) assault gets bonus for mid close,mid and long (based on suit type if you want a fast med suit) scout for sniper and close range weapons heavy for close range and mid + heavy weapons while i really have to say that i'm a bit bored of the "weapon x is op" stuff. yes, if i know from where you're coming, then i can kill you with a long/mid range gun in a close up fight, is you stand in front of me... thats REAL! maybe they should rework the price, so a proto "lil machinegun" dosnt cost as much as a "T2" rifle, since close fight people die more anyway. but i'm really, really bored if all this QQ here. whats next week? i came to a gunfight with a knife and he killed me.. guns'r OP?!?? You're missing the point. I'm not complaining about the variety of weapons. My complaint lies in the lack of downsides to using long range rifles at all ranges. If a rifle puts out respectable damage at the longest range, and then it can turn around and do that same respectable damage at close range, then where is the downside? Why would anyone (and we've seen that most people don't) use a close-to-midrange weapon that does marginally higher dps when there is a huge downside in that if your target runs away you lost tremendous killing potential on him? There just needs to be more downsides to using a long range weapon up close. Without that, there's no "balance." >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1876	Posted - 2014.02.03 23:05:00 - [9] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: When will CCP realise that you can't give weapons higher range AND higher DPS? You CAN give weapons a higher range and DPS though! They just need to be balanced with other factors. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire MAG ~ Seryi Volk Executive Response
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 664	Posted - 2014.02.03 23:06:00 - [10] - Quote By op's logic, scr is also OP as **** and deserves a crippling- i mean... 'Readjustment' Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) Selling SP: 10k SP per 100k ISK.

KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4361	Posted - 2014.02.03 23:10:00 - [11] - Quote You people over-complicate things: ''The dominance of long-range weapons'' Well, in a game where 75% + of maps consist of OPEN areas , OF COURSE long ranged weapons will always dominate. Who can dominate vs a good team with a SHTOGUN in MAnus peaks? With NKs on line harvest.? VERY FEW , thats who. when most maps consist of open areas that a sniper can see you 600mts away, then its pretty obvious which weapons will be most used. THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE WEAPON, again, ITS CRAPPY MAP DESIGN. AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG \| YOU EITHER LOVE BACON OR YOU ARE WRONG
Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 141	Posted - 2014.02.03 23:13:00 - [12] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: By op's logic, scr is also OP as **** and deserves a crippling- i mean... 'Readjustment' The scrambler rifle's 'readjustment' already exists: if you don't manage heat buildup, your own weapon can and will kill you. I think this mechanic adds interesting depth to the weapon and is just about the most 'fun' weapon out there. It is kinda BS that the amarr assault suit's bonus all but negates this fun factor. The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
Scheneighnay McBob Learning Coalition College 3896	Posted - 2014.02.03 23:47:00 - [13] - Quote While stat changes are obviously needed for rail rifles, I think map design is the main thing we should be looking at. While newer maps are fine, old maps (namely line harvest and manus peak) aren't very CQC-friendly, as any shotgun scout could probably tell you. I am your scan error.
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1817	Posted - 2014.02.03 23:52:00 - [14] - Quote When it comes to the rifles, the BASE-DPS doesn't differ enough for the AR to be worth the short ramge. Mostly because the AR, CR, RR all have a DPS value no more than 30EHP in difference. CR needs a 15% SR needs a 25% RR needs a 35% Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1818	Posted - 2014.02.04 00:16:00 - [15] - Quote Denn Maell wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: By op's logic, scr is also OP as **** and deserves a crippling- i mean... 'Readjustment' The scrambler rifle's 'readjustment' already exists: if you don't manage heat buildup, your own weapon can and will kill you. I think this mechanic adds interesting depth to the weapon and is just about the most 'fun' weapon out there. It is kinda BS that the amarr assault suit's bonus all but negates this fun factor. Not for much longer Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 671	Posted - 2014.02.04 00:32:00 - [16] - Quote By weapons, I'll assume you mean Rifles because Snipers, Lasers, Mass Drivers, and even Forge Guns all have significant drawbacks in CQC.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 266	Posted - 2014.02.04 00:49:00 - [17] - Quote Vespasian Andendare wrote: Everyone knows that the current FOTM are the Rail Rifle and Combat Rifles. Sure, these are the two newest weapons, and they may be slightly overtuned, but the real issue is that they are extremely effective at long ranges (intended), and still quite effective when in CQC (intended?). And with the published stats to the Magsec, Bolt and Ion pistols, there are seemingly no changes that are on the horizon to fix this. Compare those two new rifles to our old faithful trusty companion, the Assault Rifle, and while it is extremely effective close range (doing the most damage, smallest spread), the detriment to using it at long ranges is fairly high: it stops functioning, it doesn't hit its target, or the damage is so incidental as to not matter. The problem is that the Rail and Combat rifles are more effective at close ranges than the Assault rifle is at long ranges; there's not the same degree of "reverse falloff" that afflicts the RR and CR at close ranges that the AR experiences when firing past effective range. One solution would be to dramatically increase the dispersion of the RR and CR up close--this would make them very ineffective while hip firing (especially so for the assault versions (talking more spread than an unskilled SMG puts out)), but very well when aiming down scope. Another possibility would be to create a "minimum range" where those two offenders would have very little damage up close (akin to the AR's incidental damage at long ranges). There needs to be an incentive for a RR or CR user to swap to their sidearm in CQC, and the "burst" fire mode of the CR or spool up time on the RR are largely negated by the Assault variant of the CR and the fact that the dispersion while hip firing the RR is too good (the base burst firing mode of the CR is a fairly big drawback, requiring constant trigger pulls). Without some major change to the close damage-dealing power of the "long range weapons," they'll continue to dominate over any short- to medium-range weapon due to the extreme detriment of using weapons with very short optimal and effective ranges vs weapons that perform great at long ranges and well at close ones. as a mouse and keyboard user I can tell you the RR and to a lesser extent the CR(CR is broken and needs a ridiculous kick and dispersion at high fire rates to balance it) design are not the problem with their effectiveness in CQC. The issue is bullet magnetism, landing shots in cqc with the RR is worse then the difference between the AR and the SMG, the AR is almost always gonna win against the RR.........unless bullet magnetism is their and then the rail rifle goes toe to toe or beats the AR in most fights. the CR is a slightly different story as any fast trigger finger or turbo can out pace the ROF and DPS of an AR with the CR and with AA you can focus on your fire rate and not your aiming, and while with out bullet magnetism it wouldn't be as good in CQC, the CR NEEDS! a severe kick and dispersion increase at high fire rates.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 266	Posted - 2014.02.04 01:07:00 - [18] - Quote actually one thing I should mention here the CR and Assault CR are two very different guns, the assault CR is meant to compete with the AR in the same way the SG competes with the SMG, the ACR is a mid range burst DPS weapons with too few rounds in the clip for longer engagements(this weapon must be god mode withBM), at range how ever its as anemic as the AR as while it has longer range it needs those bullets to land for full damage to get kills with one clip. the CR how ever stick a trubo on it and call it god mode you have a gun that can compete with the RR for range with a fire rate of the ACR, as little kick and dispersion as the AR the same damage per round as an AR with almost twice the fire rate of the AR, and while it has less rounds in the clip its still ~ 3 kills per clip. of course adding kick and dispersion would do nothing to the weapon thanks to BM just requiring that your reticule be on the target for all you bullets to hit. that said ARs have perfect accuracy thanks to turbos soooooooo, one day CCP will learn the importance of proper balancing with kick and dispersion AND balancing around turbos. and that BM is BS, seriously CCP get rid of that garbage.
ToRgUe77 Ultramarine Corp 15	Posted - 2014.02.04 01:38:00 - [19] - Quote the problem right now is that for some reason weapons meant for long range are jack of all trades. RR should be terrible in cqc while the ar being a cqc rifle should dominate. After ccp fixes this(hopefully) the next step will be making new urban maps. we have plenty of long range fighting maps but we need more cqc. I love playing as a heavy but since 75% of the maps are wide and open, Im forced to either stick to an objective inside a building or run assault. mmm creamy creamy beige
HYENAKILLER X Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 547	Posted - 2014.02.04 01:46:00 - [20] - Quote Seriously folks, make a concentrated and deliberate effort to creep and sneek on the map. I know the tendency to run and gun but creeping negates range so much. You are welcome for my leadership. Proven Aggressive Type I have spoken.

hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 266	Posted - 2014.02.04 03:23:00 - [21] - Quote ToRgUe77 wrote: the problem right now is that for some reason weapons meant for long range are jack of all trades. RR should be terrible in cqc while the ar being a cqc rifle should dominate. After ccp fixes this(hopefully) the next step will be making new urban maps. we have plenty of long range fighting maps but we need more cqc. I love playing as a heavy but since 75% of the maps are wide and open, Im forced to either stick to an objective inside a building or run assault. This is one of my biggest pet peeves about CCPs map design, its tooo damn open and spread out. That said again why the RR and CR feel like jacks is due to bulletmag try and use them cqc with out AA and you will find they are horrible (unless you get an amazing triger finger or a turbo then the CR is broken as ****!)
Dis Cord Bounty Hunterz 157	Posted - 2014.02.04 04:11:00 - [22] - Quote Balancing weapons on range was a terribly flawed idea from the start. Mercs aren't spaceships travelling at extreme speeds and dog fighting dozens of kilometers apart. What makes sense for Eve does not make sense for soldiers running around on the ground. Stop balancing on range, and improve the maps by adding cover for troops to move around without constantly being exposed in open terrain.
Dericha A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 29	Posted - 2014.02.04 04:20:00 - [23] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: ToRgUe77 wrote: the problem right now is that for some reason weapons meant for long range are jack of all trades. RR should be terrible in cqc while the ar being a cqc rifle should dominate. After ccp fixes this(hopefully) the next step will be making new urban maps. we have plenty of long range fighting maps but we need more cqc. I love playing as a heavy but since 75% of the maps are wide and open, Im forced to either stick to an objective inside a building or run assault. This is one of my biggest pet peeves about CCPs map design, its tooo damn open and spread out. That said again why the RR and CR feel like jacks is due to bulletmag try and use them cqc with out AA and you will find they are horrible (unless you get an amazing triger finger or a turbo then the CR is broken as ****!) I love my CR and ASR because of the scopes. I do amazing things with the CR in a frontline suit. It's not less awful than an AR and I'm not sure about the numbers, but I feel like I get better range with the AR. Either way, CR or SR with a modded controller is awful. Worse than RRs and I sacrifice small animals to CCP in hopes they get tweaked next patch.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 439	Posted - 2014.02.04 04:34:00 - [24] - Quote Cr is balanced by its low clip. Not quite enough, maybe, but its still a huge factor. Taking on groups or even a single heavy requires headshots or not missing more do than any other gun. And not every gun needs to be balanced. What's the harm in the Ar being a weapon that allows for spray and pray with lots of ammo but less dps and range? Like, if you don't like that style, don't use the AR? I don't get the need this forum had for every gun to be balanced. It's ok for guns to be niche. He'll I've recently found a fantastic reason to use plasmas. Should I use it as my main? No, but that's ok. Almost all of us have tons of sp in ARs. So I think it's safe to say to get over it. Weapons that are spray and pray or splash damage should have less dps than low rof or single shot weapons. Part of the fun of this game is having the right tool for the job, and if every gun was equal that wouldn't be possible. Niche guns are fun.
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 368	Posted - 2014.02.04 04:50:00 - [25] - Quote Autoaim, hit detection, and strafe speed nerf broke every weapon that isn't a rifle in the game. Time to kill is way too low in general and sneaking isn't a possibility with your handheld orbital VSAT scanners all over the field. Scans should be an eve orbital support function. That is how strong it is. Rail/Combat rifle are too strong. Scramble would be too if everyone and their sister weren't armor tanking. All rifle DPS needs to be scaled down by X percentage, with the rail and combat rifle taking more of a hit than the AR/SR. Does anyone still use the mass driver in competitive matches? They didn't nerf it, but they fixed all of the limitations that rifles had to deal with and now we have reached hegemony. HMG still has a place, but AV/MD/LR do not. From a balance perspective, this is the most glaring issue with the game right now. Everyone in the game is a lil' Kalante right now. People just die too quickly. Tone down damage.
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 566	Posted - 2014.02.04 04:53:00 - [26] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: I don't get the need this forum had for every gun to be balanced. It's ok for guns to be niche. The issue is that the long range rifles aren't niche. In order to be niche weapon, it would have to be really good at something, and terrible at something else. For example, the AR falls into this category. It's excellent at close range and terrible from farther away. The problem with the longer range rifles, the Rail Rifle for example, is that it excels at all things and isn't terrible at something. It's great long range (low dispersion, great scope, etc.) and it doesn't suffer at close range (high dispersion from the hip, low damage, etc.). So where, then, is the niche in that? If a weapon is good at everything, then you can hardly say its niche nor balanced. >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
Fiddlestaxp TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 368	Posted - 2014.02.04 04:58:00 - [27] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: I don't get the need this forum had for every gun to be balanced. It's ok for guns to be niche. Its OK for guns to be different and more effective than others for certain roles. It is NOT ok when guns are better than their competitators across different roles For example: The CR is better than the SMG at its optimal and better than the AR even past its optimal. The rail dominates from the AR's optimal well past what should be where the laser is used The domination at range of these two weapons leave no room for "niche" guns like the MD or LR In chromosome, the biggest threat to a mass driver playing the gun "as intended"(which means camped out on a roof like a *****) was the obscene range of the laser rifle. This was soon replaced by the obscene range fhe TAC. They stopped doing that for a little while, and now it is the obscene range of the railrifle, and Combat Rifles that are still brutally effective at 50meters.
Racro 01 Arifistan 501st Knights of Leanbox INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 145	Posted - 2014.02.04 05:05:00 - [28] - Quote now if the breach AR was put back the way ti was befor chromosome/when it was first introduced there wouldnt be an argument. 2-3 headshots from creobreach would and could drop a heavy back then. but it got nerfed to its current state. with the way thigns are i wouldnt mind if the breach rifle at proto level. (creo breach was dealing 70+ base damage) again :)
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core 482	Posted - 2014.02.04 05:47:00 - [29] - Quote 1.add more assets into the existing open maps for players to unitize as cover(rocks,hills,terrain,container cans,boxes etc. 2.better cqc oriented module maps 3.lower the AR optimal range by 10meters and increase AR base damage by 6%-7% across all tiers A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 671	Posted - 2014.02.04 06:08:00 - [30] - Quote Johnny Guilt wrote: 1.add more assets into the existing open maps for players to unitize as cover(rocks,hills,terrain,container cans,boxes etc. 2.better cqc oriented module maps 3.lower the AR optimal range by 10meters and increase AR base damage by 6%-7% across all tiers Don't let RR/CR dominance fool you into believing the AR needs a damage buff, it does not.



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